R + L = J v.167

[Alexis-something-Rose]

56 minutes ago, Megorova said:

In GRRM's case sometimes the absence of evidence is an evidence. For example, when Ashara Dayne supposedly commited suicide, there was no body, the absence of her body is an evidence that she isn't dead.

No, it's not. Her body could have easily been dragged by the current into the sea. She might have fed the fishes near the Arbor for all we know.

About Jon's birth. The Battle of the Bells was in early 283 AC. Unless Lyanna gave birth prematurely or Ned decided to fudge up dates by a month or so (which is entirely possible), Jon couldn't have been born earlier than October since Catelyn says that she carried Robb to full term. That would put Dany's own birth either in June or July. And that's if the BotB took place in January. 

Edited August 5, 2020 by Alexis-something-Rose

[Frey family reunion]

13 hours ago, corbon said:

There is no evidence that Jon is older than Robb (he may be, though not by much) and plenty of evidence that Robb is considered by all to be older than Jon.

Sorry, that's simply not true.  Harwin certainly states that the rumour around Winterfell was that Ned and Ashara's affair ended before Ned was betrothed to Cat.  That there was no stain on Ned's honor because whatever he did with Ashara ended before even his betrothal to Cat.  The fact that the other rumour in Winterfell was that Ashara was Jon's mother certainly implies that at least some of the gossipers in Winterfell must have thought Jon was older.  The only one that we know of who definitely thinks Jon was younger than Robb is Cat.

[Frey family reunion]

17 hours ago, SFDanny said:

That this is also the story Ned tells Robert is beyond doubt.

And yet, I doubt that it nonetheless.  Ned tells Robert quite adamantly and hotly that he dishonored Cat before the eyes of gods and man while Cat was pregnant with his child.  We know Ned is loathe to tell lies.   Even when he had his confrontation with Cat about Jon's mother, Ned technically doesn't lie to her.  He tells her that Jon is his own blood and to leave it at that.

The fact that Ned is not a natural deceptor makes me question that he can put on a mummer's show in front of Robert and angrily rail about the dishonor he put upon himself and Cat unless it was true.

Since we have a good reason to disbelieve that Ned cheated on Cat and conceived Jon, we have to ask ourselves, in what other manner could Ned have dishonored himself and Cat in the eyes of god and man?  I think the answer is quite simple.  Ned's dishonor was his false affirmation of Jon as his son, which was made (like all affirmations in Westeros) before the eyes of gods and man.  

 

Edited August 5, 2020 by Frey family reunion

[SFDanny]

1 hour ago, Frey family reunion said:

And yet, I doubt that it nonetheless.  Ned tells Robert quite adamantly and hotly that he dishonored Cat before the eyes of gods and man while Cat was pregnant with his child.  We know Ned is loathe to tell lies.   Even when he had his confrontation with Cat about Jon's mother, Ned technically doesn't lie to her.  He tells her that Jon is his own blood and to leave it at that.

The fact that Ned is not a natural deceptor makes me question that he can put on a mummer's show in front of Robert and angrily rail about the dishonor he put upon himself and Cat unless it was true.

Since we have a good reason to disbelieve that Ned cheated on Cat and conceived Jon, we have to ask ourselves, in what other manner could Ned have dishonored himself and Cat in the eyes of god and man?  I think the answer is quite simple.  Ned's dishonor was his false affirmation of Jon as his son, which was made (like all affirmations in Westeros) before the eyes of gods and man.  

 

I don't quite understand your objection to my statement. You admit what Ned tells Robert is exactly what I said he did. So, what is there to doubt about what is clearly on the written page?

Doubting the truth of Ned's statement to Robert is something we both share, but there is no doubt of what Ned tells Robert. It is right there for every reader to read for themselves.

Quote

"I dishonored myself and I dishonored Catelyn, in the sight of gods and men."

"Gods have mercy, you scarcely knew Catelyn."

"I had taken her to wife. She was carrying my child." (AGoT 122-123 Hardback Illustrated edition)

There is no doubting this is the story Ned tells Robert. That he tells him he conceived Jon after he left his new wife pregnant with Robb. It is likely a lie, but that is what dear Lord Eddard says to his king and friend.

[Ygrain]

1 hour ago, Frey family reunion said:

Sorry, that's simply not true.  Harwin certainly states that the rumour around Winterfell was that Ned and Ashara's affair ended before Ned was betrothed to Cat.  That there was no stain on Ned's honor because whatever he did with Ashara ended before even his betrothal to Cat.  The fact that the other rumour in Winterfell was that Ashara was Jon's mother certainly implies that at least some of the gossipers in Winterfell must have thought Jon was older.  The only one that we know of who definitely thinks Jon was younger than Robb is Cat.

Except, we don't have any Winterfellian perpetrating this gossip - the gossip we are provided via Cat is that her husband killed Arthur Dayne in a single combat, and then travelled to give Dawn to the beautiful Ashara Dayne at Starfall. It was one hell of a trip only to return a sword, albeit a famous one, so she reasonably thinks there might be more to it. Winterfellians think what Harwin tells us - that Ned and Ashara had a thing at HH (and I guess the people think that's why he went to Starfall, whereas there is nothing pointing to Cat being aware of the HH rumours as she wasn't there.). The actual gossip about Jon's mother is the one mentioned in Sansa's PoV - that Jon's mother was commonborn.

Plus, as has been pointed out, no harm in kisses or perhaps more as long as there is no baby, because that is bloody harm, as we can see with poor Ashara.

[Frey family reunion]

2 hours ago, SFDanny said:

I don't quite understand your objection to my statement. You admit what Ned tells Robert is exactly what I said he did. So, what is there to doubt about what is clearly on the written page?

Doubting the truth of Ned's statement to Robert is something we both share, but there is no doubt of what Ned tells Robert. It is right there for every reader to read for themselves.

There is no doubting this is the story Ned tells Robert. That he tells him he conceived Jon after he left his new wife pregnant with Robb. It is likely a lie, but that is what dear Lord Eddard says to his king and friend.

Just like you have to read between the lines about what Ned tells Cat during their argument, you have to read between the lines about what he tells Robert during their argument.

I don't think that Ned really said that he conceived Jon after he left Cat pregnant with Robb.  Just like I don't think he told Cat during their argument that Jon was his son.  

When Ned doesn't have to lie, I don't think he does.  Ned told Cat that Jon was of his blood.  Which Jon was.  Ned allowed Cat to assume that he meant that Jon was his son.  

I think Ned truly believes that he dishonored Cat and himself.  And when his anger comes up, the truth comes out.  I think that Ned does believe that he dishonored himself and dishonored Cat but he believes that he caused this dinhoner when he made a false affirmation under oath that he was Jon's father.  Ned lets Robert assume that what he is referring to is an indiscretion with Wylla.

And if that's the case, then I'm not sure we can read too much into Ned saying that he dishonored Cat while she was pregnant with Robb.  I don't think he's really trying to convey to Robert a specific time frame when an affair happened, because while Ned is angry and in the moment, he's really not referring to a false infedelity.  He's referring to a very real indescretion, when he falsely swears under oath to gods and man that he was Jon's father, an act which had reprecussions both towards him and his wife.

Edited August 5, 2020 by Frey family reunion

[Frey family reunion]

2 hours ago, Ygrain said:

Except, we don't have any Winterfellian perpetrating this gossip - the gossip we are provided via Cat is that her husband killed Arthur Dayne in a single combat, and then travelled to give Dawn to the beautiful Ashara Dayne at Starfall. It was one hell of a trip only to return a sword, albeit a famous one, so she reasonably thinks there might be more to it. Winterfellians think what Harwin tells us - that Ned and Ashara had a thing at HH (and I guess the people think that's why he went to Starfall, whereas there is nothing pointing to Cat being aware of the HH rumours as she wasn't there.). The actual gossip about Jon's mother is the one mentioned in Sansa's PoV - that Jon's mother was commonborn.

Plus, as has been pointed out, no harm in kisses or perhaps more as long as there is no baby, because that is bloody harm, as we can see with poor Ashara.

No, I know we've been over this before.  I don't think that's an accurate reading of the text.  I think the meaning is very clear that Cat hears the rumor that Ashara is Jon's mom and confronts Ned about it. 

[Bael's Bastard]

@Frey family reunion

Cat's POV tells us Ned called Jon his son for the whole North to see. So even though he used "my blood" in that particular, and IMO telling, conversation with her, I don't think it's safe to assume he never called or referred to Jon as his son, and just depended on everyone to assume it and craft a story for him.

[Bael's Bastard]

Though I acknowledge that Cat actually says Ned called him "son," and I could totally see Ned calling Jon son, avoiding phrases like "my son," and in his mind walking a tight line.

[Frey family reunion]

7 minutes ago, Bael's Bastard said:

@Frey family reunion

Cat's POV tells us Ned called Jon his son for the whole North to see. So even though he used "my blood" in that particular, and IMO telling, conversation with her, I don't think it's safe to assume he never called or referred to Jon as his son, and just depended on everyone to assume it and craft a story for him.

Clearly Ned does lie.  At some point he made a false affirmation that Jon was his son.  But when Ned's blood is up, like it was during his argument with Cat and it was during his argument with Robert, I think the truth comes out.  Even if no one realizes what the truth actually is.  

When Ned tells Robert that Wylla is Jon's mother, he does so with "cool courtesy".  I think this is an instance of Ned lying.  But when he truly gets angry, I believe is when he lets the truth come out, but only up to a point.

Edited August 5, 2020 by Frey family reunion

[Ygrain]

36 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

No, I know we've been over this before.  I don't think that's an accurate reading of the text.  I think the meaning is very clear that Cat hears the rumor that Ashara is Jon's mom and confronts Ned about it. 

You may disagree on what exactly Cat heard but you can hardly dispute that Sansa overheard a rumour that Jon's mother was commonborn:

Jon's mother had been common, or so people whispered (Sansa I)

Note also that it's "people", not just one particular person. 

[Frey family reunion]

7 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

You may disagree on what exactly Cat heard but you can hardly dispute that Sansa overheard a rumour that Jon's mother was commonborn:

Jon's mother had been common, or so people whispered (Sansa I)

Note also that it's "people", not just one particular person. 

While I think that’s a valid point, I also think it goes into the nature of rumors.  There are probably multiple rumors about Jon’s mother.  

I think it also points out that Ned (and/or perhaps Cat) were successful in quashing a lot of the talk about Ashara, at least a lot of the talk about Ashara that would have been heard by the Stark family.  

After all Arya seemed to have never heard the rumor about Ned’s relationship with Ashara.  And notably, Harwin was very uncomfortable when he was talking to Arya about it, and pled with her not to mention their conversation to her mother.

[Ygrain]

15 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

While I think that’s a valid point, I also think it goes into the nature of rumors.  There are probably multiple rumors about Jon’s mother.  

I think it also points out that Ned (and/or perhaps Cat) were successful in quashing a lot of the talk about Ashara, at least a lot of the talk about Ashara that would have been heard by the Stark family.  

After all Arya seemed to have never heard the rumor about Ned’s relationship with Ashara.  And notably, Harwin was very uncomfortable when he was talking to Arya about it, and pled with her not to mention their conversation to her mother.

Agreed that rumours are most likely multiple, and different people may believe different rumours.

I don't recall the particulars of previous conversation(s), so let me reiterate.

The rumours explixitely mentioned are:

1) Jon's mother was commonborn

2) Ned and Ashara had a fling at HH. However, not everyone believes it

Curiously, these two rumours are in line with what Ned Dayne tells Arya: that Ned and Ashara were in love but Ned fathered Jon on Wylla.

It is possible that some speculated Ashara was Jon's mother but this is not on the list of gossip that Cat hears, and nowhere does it state that those spreading the gossip believe that the conception took place at HH, and not at a later point when Ned was in the South.

Not sure what exactly you are reading into Harwin's discomfort with the topic, other than that it is a sensitive matter and Cat wouldn't want to hear about Ned's supposed old flame.

[lehutin]

I always had the same impression as @Frey family reunion that Catelyn heard a rumor that Ashara is Jon's mom. From Catelyn II, AGOT:

Quote

Ned would not speak of the mother, not so much as a word, but a castle has no secrets, and Catelyn heard her maids repeating tales they heard from the lips of her husband’s soldiers. They whispered of Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning, deadliest of the seven knights of Aerys’s Kingsguard, and of how their young lord had slain him in single combat. And they told how afterward Ned had carried Ser Arthur’s sword back to the beautiful young sister who awaited him in a castle called Starfall on the shores of the Summer Sea. The Lady Ashara Dayne, tall and fair, with haunting violet eyes. It had taken her a fortnight to marshal her courage, but finally, in bed one night, Catelyn had asked her husband the truth of it, asked him to his face.

But from @Ygrain's comments, I reread the passage, and it's interesting that it doesn't explicitly confirm that Cat's maids gossiped about Ashara being Jon's mother. It only confirms that they heard a story from Ned's soldiers about how Ned killed Arthur and then brought his sword back to Ashara.

 

This would suggest that like her daughter Arya, Cat mentally made the N+A=J connection on her own. It wasn't something that they actually heard (e.g. Edric Dayne outright tells Arya that Wylla is Jon's mother, but she fixates on the Ashara-Ned "fell in love" rumor).

[Ygrain]

5 minutes ago, lehutin said:

it's interesting that it doesn't explicitly confirm that Cat's maids gossiped about Ashara being Jon's mother. It only confirms that they heard a story from Ned's soldiers about how Ned killed Arthur and then brought his sword back to Ashara.

Add to it the public knowledge of Ashara's dishonour, and people thinking 1+1=2 makes a lot of sense. We don't know if Cat knew about Ashara's pregnancy, though.

[Frey family reunion]

11 minutes ago, lehutin said:

I always had the same impression as @Frey family reunion that Catelyn heard a rumor that Ashara is Jon's mom. From Catelyn II, AGOT:

But from @Ygrain's comments, I reread the passage, and it's interesting that it doesn't explicitly confirm that Cat's maids gossiped about Ashara being Jon's mother. It only confirms that they heard a story from Ned's soldiers about how Ned killed Arthur and then brought his sword back to Ashara.

 

This would suggest that like her daughter Arya, Cat mentally made the N+A=J connection on her own. It wasn't something that they actually heard (e.g. Edric Dayne outright tells Arya that Wylla is Jon's mother, but she fixates on the Ashara-Ned "fell in love" rumor).

That's because you guys are parsing the text way too fine.  Past the point of a legitimate meaning.

Cat goes through the following analysis:

1.  Ned would never speak of who Jon's mother was.

2.  But, the castle held no secrets.  Thus people were talking about who Jon's mother could be.

3.  She heard the tale of Ashara Dayne, and how Ned brought her the sword Dawn.  I.e. people are supplying a possible answer as to who they think Jon's mother is.

4.  She confronts Ned about the truth of it.  (what is it? we find out through Ned's reaction)

5.  Ned tells her never to ask him about Jon again.  So the truth that Cat confronts Ned with was whether Ashara was Ned's mother.

6.  After that the whispering about Ashara Dayne stopped.

It's absurd to think that people were whispering about Ned's affair with Ashara but it was only Cat who made the assumption that Ashara could be Jon's mother, especially when the entire context of the passage was Cat trying to figure out who Jon's mother was.

Edited August 5, 2020 by Frey family reunion

[lehutin]

15 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

It's absurd to think that people were whispering about Ned's affair with Ashara but it was only Cat who made the assumption that Ashara could be Jon's mother, especially when the entire context of the passage was Cat trying to figure out who Jon's mother was.

That's not what I'm claiming. I'm claiming that if you read the text as it is, Cat's maids never whispered that. As I said, I always thought that Cat heard the N+A=J rumor from her maids, and it's of course certainly possible. But it isn't explicitly stated on the page; it's something the reader must infer.

 

And the inference may be wrong. As I pointed out, with Arya, Edric Dayne directly tells her that Wylla is Jon's mother. Despite that, Arya chooses to fixate on the Ashara-Ned "fell in love" rumor. 

[Frey family reunion]

9 minutes ago, lehutin said:

That's not what I'm claiming. I'm claiming that if you read the text as it is, Cat's maids never whispered that. As I said, I always thought that Cat heard the N+A=J rumor from her maids, and it's of course certainly possible. But it isn't explicitly stated on the page; it's something the reader must infer.

 

And the inference may be wrong. As I pointed out, with Arya, Edric Dayne directly tells her that Wylla is Jon's mother. Despite that, Arya chooses to fixate on the Ashara-Ned "fell in love" rumor. 

Like I said, you guys are parsing the text beyond legitimate meaning.

[SFDanny]

5 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

Just like you have to read between the lines about what Ned tells Cat during their argument, you have to read between the lines about what he tells Robert during their argument.

I don't think that Ned really said that he conceived Jon after he left Cat pregnant with Robb.  Just like I don't think he told Cat during their argument that Jon was his son.  

When Ned doesn't have to lie, I don't think he does.  Ned told Cat that Jon was of his blood.  Which Jon was.  Ned allowed Cat to assume that he meant that Jon was his son.  

I think Ned truly believes that he dishonored Cat and himself.  And when his anger comes up, the truth comes out.  I think that Ned does believe that he dishonored himself and dishonored Cat but he believes that he caused this dinhoner when he made a false affirmation under oath that he was Jon's father.  Ned lets Robert assume that what he is referring to is an indiscretion with Wylla.

And if that's the case, then I'm not sure we can read too much into Ned saying that he dishonored Cat while she was pregnant with Robb.  I don't think he's really trying to convey to Robert a specific time frame when an affair happened, because while Ned is angry and in the moment, he's really not referring to a false infedelity.  He's referring to a very real indescretion, when he falsely swears under oath to gods and man that he was Jon's father, an act which had reprecussions both towards him and his wife.

Parsing much?

[Frey family reunion]

29 minutes ago, SFDanny said:

Parsing much?

Absolutely.