R + L = J v.167

[Bael's Bastard]

3 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

How do we know this?

Whether Lyanna died of excessive bleeding or fever as a result of the pregnancy, there is only so long after Jon's birth she's likely to have lived.

[Lord Varys]

20 hours ago, corbon said:

The only reason Jon has any status at all is that he has been brought up in Ned's household and treated like Ned's son. But that status doesn't seem to be a formal thing. Jon gets respect as Ned's bastard and for his upbringing, but no formal 'standing' expcet as convenient for others.  If Robert brought Maya into his household like Ned did to Jon, and called her daughter, she's have status similar to Jon but still significantly less than Edric.

That is just in your head. Jon Snow has the status he has because Eddard Stark formally acknowledged him as his natural son, branded him with the Snow name as a noble bastard, and raised him at the castle of Winterfell together with his trueborn children.

In fact, your entire idea of Daynes and other Dornishmen 'concluding' Jon was Ned's son is crap as can be seen by the fact that Jon was branded a Snow, not a Sand. A bastard born in Dorne would be a Sand, no matter who his father is, just as Mya is a Stone not a Storm. That indicates that Jon Snow was only publicly recognized by anyone at the time he came to Winterfell.

Sort of like Robert may have recognized Delena's child even before the birth, explaining why Edric, although possibly born at Brightwater Keep, became a Storm not a Flowers. But then, the Edric Storm thing is nonsense, too, considering Robert was king by the time he fathered Edric, meaning the boy should have been a Waters by virtue of the place where his father lived or a Flowers by virtue of the place he was born. He shouldn't be a Storm unless Delena gave birth to him in the Stormlands. Unless, of course, this is just an inherently inconsistent system and nobody knows why a person gets the bastard name they have.

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Yeah, lets have 13 (or younger) year old Benjen Stark getting the beautiful young courtier, sister of Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning who dances with her brother (at least 21 yrs old), with Lord Jon Connington (20ish year old ruling Lord), Oberyn Martell (23ish and already known as the Red Viper) and hangs out with Brandon Stark (heir, 20ish) pregnant.

LOL, if fucking Rhaegar can fuck his little filly, Lyanna Stark, surely Ashara Dayne could also be into inexperienced little boys, no?

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Always good to see someone who knows more about the unwritten (by GRRM) rules of Westeros than the people GRRM writes who live there.

LOL, man, either I'm making sense here, or the author does not. Either way - your 'interpretation' there is just utter nonsense. If a man just playing around with a child, showing favors to him or her, means people think this man must be her father, then pretty much any nobleman sponsoring some common dude or lass would be informally seen as their father, and those children would be branded with the bastard name which might ruin their lives.

Petyr Baelish, being shown favor by the proud Hoster Tully of Riverrun, would be seen as a Tully by-blow, Ned sponsoring men like Jory and Alyn in the lists and stuff -> they are Stark bastards. Jon Arryn making some Hugh with no family his squire -> he must be his bastard. And so on and so forth.

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Sansa knows her name is Stone. Yet she still thinks her unacknowledged. Sansa is not stupid.

Apparently she is. Or she might believe Mya's mother - who she doesn't know anything about - was a noblewoman/enough so that Mya Stone would be seen as a Stone. We know the mother was supposedly a commoner, but she could still have been a commoner with a family name. If she had one, this might be enough for her to be branded with the Stone name since she couldn't get her mother's family name.

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The clear indication is that it is not 'acknowledgement' that gives baseborn children the extra name. 
Its simply general usage and what is 'known'.

Nope, that isn't the indication at all. The indication is that you only get that name if some noble dude acknowledges you ... unless, perhaps, if the mother herself had a family name she couldn't pass on to her natural child.

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Just Robert hanging around with her is enough for people to give her the name, and her to keep it thereafter.

LOL, no. That is just nonsense.

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The Hull boys grew up with no contact or acknowledgement from their noble parent. So they didn't get a last name to keep.

LOL again - they were looking Valyrian and were obviously Velaryon bastards, possibly even Targaryen bastards. Their mother didn't look Valyrian, so by virtue of looks they could have claimed the Waters name for themselves. But they didn't, because it would have been dangerous for them.

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Sure we do. Its pretty damn simple.

Mya gets the name Stone because Robert came and visited her a lot when she was a child and it was clear to those around them that she was his daughter even though he didn't acknowledge her as such. People gave her the name and thus she kept it.

Gendry doesn't get the name as Robert didn't visit him and only a few secretive people know he was Robert's bastard. most people just assume he's double-baseborn, so to speak. 

You don't get such a name because some dude visits you. Everybody can visit with some girl and play around with her. The very idea that this was how that kind of thing happened is ludicrous. Then no man who liked to play around with children could afford to play with fatherless children because it would increase the risk they would be seen as his bastards.

If Mya got the Stone name because of Robert then Robert must have acknowledged her. Now this may have been somewhat clandestinely done considering Robert was ashamed of his bastards, perhaps even only through Jon Arryn who may have given Mya noble bastard status to grant her some incomes and later her job, etc. but the idea that you become a bastard by virtue of hanging out with a guy is ludicrous.

By that logic, Gendry also should have been an acknowledged bastard because he was receiving funds from court via Varys. The boy should have been introduced to Tobho Mott as Gendry Waters, not just Gendry, especially since it was pretty obvious to people who he was.

Edited August 10, 2020 by Lord Varys

[SFDanny]

@Megorova sorry, I've been dealing with some health issues, so I'm not responding as quickly as I'd like. A word of caution on your calculations. Martin is extremely focused on sequence, but pays little attention to real world expectations of travel times. Many people have tried to figure out timelines based on real world calculations and have failed when they have done so. I think it is fine to try to use some of this as guidelines, but be prepared to throw it all away. The time of Tyrion's travel from Winterfell down to the Inn of the Crossroads, and the time for Stannis's fleet to get to Eastwatch are examples of this.

A better method is a calculation of days passed in the text as a minimum time passed between various events. For instance, the time we can tell for sure it takes Robb to march from Riverrun to the Twins is at a minimum about one month based on a close reading of days passing in the text. It is likely closer to two months. Why is this important? One reason is because we know Robb's sixteenth name day takes place shortly before Robb sets out on the journey. Combine this with the important sequence of the news of Robb's and Catelyn's deaths reaching King's Landing shortly before the royal wedding and the first day of the new year, what we get is the elimination of December/12 month as a possible time for Robb's birth. It helps verify the calculation of a October - November (10th - 11th month) as the proper timeframe for his name day.

My suggestion is forget the travel time calculations based on real world expectations and look to the text.

As to the issue of timing of Ned's possible visit with the Fisherman's daughter, @Bael's Bastard has it right. These are the very early days of the rebellion. Just after the news of Robert's victory at Gulltown reaches Sisterton and well before Ned gets to the North to take command his Northern levies. Even if we assume Benjen has called the banners together, this means a considerable length of Ned's time is taken in bringing his Northern army south to engage in the rebellion. What you do is collapse events to the point you make a rebellion that takes at least a year, down to eight or nine months maximum and possibly even less. This should tell you have made a mistake in your calculations.

I'm happy to continue this conversation now, or when it is good for you, but let me apologize in advance if I'm a little slower in responding that usual.

 

[Megorova]

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

But then, the Edric Storm thing is nonsense, too, considering Robert was king by the time he fathered Edric, meaning the boy should have been a Waters by virtue of the place his father lived or a Flowers by virtue of the place he was born. He shouldn't be a Storm unless Delena gave birth to him in the Stormlands. Unless, of course, this is just an inherently inconsistent system and nobody knows why a person gets the bastard name they have.

It seems that the bastard-children get their bastard name based on the origin of their mothers.

Mya is a Stone because her mother is a Valewoman. Edric is a Storm because his mother is a Stormlander (or is she from The Reach? ). Bloodraven and Bittersteel were Rivers (not Waters, even though their father was a King), because their mothers were from Riverlands. Daemon I Blackfyre originally was Daemon Waters, because his mother was from King's Landing.

Also there was Glendon Flowers, son of Quentyn Ball. Apparently, his mother, same as his father, was from The Reach. So, Quentyn was Flowers, even though he was born at King's Landing.

In case with Jon and Sand Snakes, they got their bastard names based on their fathers' place of origin - The North and Dorne, Snow and Sand. Because Ned was hiding who Jon's mother was, and thus he wasn't given a bastard name based on his mother's origin. And even though some information is known about mothers of some of Sand Snakes, such as that one of them is a septa at Oldtown, and that the other one is a trader from Summer Islands, their names are not publicly known, and thus their origin is also not revealed, and that's why their daughters got Sand as their bastard name, based on their father's origin.

So, the bastard name is given to a child, based on his/her mother's origin. But if the mother's origin is not known, then they are named based on their father's origin.

P.S. If the child was given a bastard name based on the place of birth, then Jon should have been a Sand, and Glendon Ball should have been a Waters (because he was born at King's Landing, where his mother opened a brothel after the war).

So, probably, Mya is a Stone, because of her mother, and Edric is a Storm, because he wasn't named based on his mother's origin. That's because he was acknowledged by his father, who was a Stormlander, and that's why he is a Storm.

There. Now it all fits. They have a complicated naming system, that differentiates children's' naming based on circumstances.

Jon was acknowledged by his Northman father, Sand Snakes were acknowledged by Oberyn/Dornishman, Edric by Robert/Stormlander. While Mya, was not acknowledged, and thus was named a Stone, after her mother's origin. Same with Glendon Flowers, unacknowledged by Quentyn Ball, born at King's Landing, by a mother who was from The Reach.

Edited August 10, 2020 by Megorova

[SFDanny]

18 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

Not sure why this is.  The Fisherman's daughter story would have Jon's conception occurring after the start of the war.  The war had waged close to a year when the Sack of King's Landing occurred.  

The Battle of the Trident occurred before the Sack of King's Landing.

Dany's conception occurred before the Battle of the Trident.

Because we are not figuring the nine moons from the date of conception - presumably from Aerys's rape of Rhaella that Jaime relates in his story. We are taking the nine moons from the time of the flight to Dragonstone. A known event after the Trident's news reaches King's Landing and preceding the sack. Nine moons as a general estimation of time from conception to birth is fine guide, but it will vary in Martin's world by a matter of weeks. What we know from Doran's remarks of Elia's birth is that a premature child of one month early is expected to die, even under the best care available. 

So, what we are talking about is not the timing from conception, but from the flight to birth. Both are known  dates in Martin's world even if we don't know them ourselves. Everyone is Westeros must know when the sack of King's Landing take place. Daenerys's birth is tied to the day in which a great storm destroys the Targaryen fleet in Dragonstone's harbor. Hence the appellation of "Stormborn" by which Daenerys is known, and to which the Citadel teaches their students, and by which Stannis's fleet narrowly misses getting to Dragonstone to capture Viserys and the newborn Daenerys. This is not a made up story of Viserys; it is accepted history. Which should tell us that Daenerys's retelling of the story she learns of her birth from Viserys and/or Ser Willem is rock solid, and the estimate of "nine moons" between the flight and birth is also a solid estimation.

What this understanding does is give us a way to determine when the flight to Dragonstone takes place if we can come up with a timeframe in which Dany's name day falls. It turns out we can by the length of time of Rhaego's birth back to the scene in which Dany's handmaids discovers her pregnancy on her fourteenth name day. The long and short of this is that we can estimate Dany's name day to midsummer - give or take perhaps a month.

That tells us the flight takes place nine months before that based on nothing but what is in the text. The timing of Jon's name day as it relates to Martin's comments of the Jon/Dany age difference being "eight or nine months, or thereabouts" puts his birth from about the time of the Trident to perhaps six weeks after the flight.  The later part of this window overlaps with a possible timing of Robb's birth in early October. This opens up the possibility that Robb could really be older than Jon, as is the accepted fact in the text, or that Jon could be actually older by a small amount of time.

18 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

It all kind of depends on what Ned means when he says close to a year doesn't it?

I'm pretty sure "close to a year" means what it says. The war, depending on how Ned figures what constitutes the "rebellion" lasts approximately a year. Some people want that to mean "less than a year" others, myself included, just read it as sometime near a year - including perhaps shorter or perhaps longer than a year. As a guideline it is helpful. It doesn't determine everything.

18 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

And if you are going to rely so heavily on GRRM's quote about Jon's age, you have to agree to live by it when it disproves other parts of your theory as well.

After all, doesn't that quote pretty much ensure that Jon has to be older than Robb?

No it does not ensure Jon is older. It does make it possible, perhaps even likely. But once again, what people in Westeros believe is that Robb is older. The truth may well be different. If Jon is Rhaegar and Lyanna's child, Ned has a very powerful reason to lie about Jon's age. I thought I've hammered this point enough to make what I think clear.

18 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

If Jon was born at the time of Dany's conception, then he was born prior to the Battle of the Trident.

Robb was conceived after the Battle of the Bells.  

Are you saying that more than 9 months elapsed between Ned and Cat's wedding and the Battle of the Trident?

No, I'm saying that there is a considerable time period of some many months, perhaps up to seven or eight months between the wedding and the Trident. This is not something I've just made up.  Please read the Citadel's piece, written long ago, entitled "What Happened When During Robert's Rebellion." That essay states the following:

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Following this there seems to be a great, lengthy undocumented period before the Battle of the Trident. This period may have lasted as much as seven months.

I add another month, give or take.

[ATaleofSalt&Onions]

On 8/9/2020 at 7:09 AM, Megorova said:

Yes, Wylla could have used a boat or a ship to get to Winterfell, and so could have Catelyn.

(I did some calculations ages ago, about traveling during and after Robert's Rebellion, with researching such information as speed of horses on various terrains, speed of medieval ships, speed of flying birds, speed of rowing boats, speed of marching troops, etc.)

From Starfall or the Tower of Joy (from there to Wyl river is 1-3 days of ride on horseback or by cart/carriage) thru The Summer Sea and The Narrow Sea to White Harbor, and from there up White Knife river in direction of the Long Lake, from there it's only a few days ride to Winterfell. And Catelyn could have went from Riverrun by the Red Fork to the Bay of Crabs, and from there to White Harbor, etc.

Starfall/Tower of Joy is very far away from Winterfell. It's months away even from Riverrun.

The distance between Riverrun and White Harbor is ~ 2085,5 nautical miles. Distance between Starfall and White Harbor is ~3649,7 nautical miles. Between Tower of Joy and White Harbor ~ 2606,93 nautical miles. Average speed of medieval ship is 5 mph (nautical miles per hour).

Duration of sea-voyage to White Harbor:

- from Riverrun - a bit over 17 days;

- from the Tower of Joy - nearly 22 days;

- from Starfall - a bit over 30 days.

And if they went via land-route, then from Riverrun to Crossroads Inn distance is 300 miles, and from Starfall to Crossroads Inn it's 1620 miles. From Crossroads Inn they would have traveled the same distance to Winterfell via the King's Road. Though, the thing is is that if Catelyn traveled from Riverrun via land, then she would have went all the way by roads (River Road and King's Road), and Wylla would have went half of her way via mountain marches.

I found info on speed of travel on horseback, thru various types of terrains, how far a horse can travel, miles per day:

https://www.cartographersguild.com/showthread.php?t=19730

On Roads / trails
Level or rolling terrain: 40
Hilly terrain: 30
Mountainous terrain: 20

Off-Road (or unkempt trails etc)
Level/rolling grasslands: 30
Hilly grasslands: 25
Level/rolling forest/thick scrub: 20
Very hilly forest/thick scrub: 15

Un-blazed Mountain passes: 10
Marshland: 10

So Catelyn would have traveled 300/with speed 40 miles per day = 7,5 days to Crossroads Inn. And Wylla would have traveled 840 miles thru Dornish Marches, 840/20 = 42 days to King's Road and from there additional 780 miles to Crossroads Inn, 780/40 = 19,5 days.

So to get from Riverrun to CI Cat would have needed a bit over one week (that's without inclusion of stops, that they could have made on their way), and to get there Wylla would have needed 61,5 days (or if most of the way thru Dornish Marches was by marshlands, then it would have taken her 840/10 = 84+19,5 = 103,5 days to get to CI). And additonal 1320 miles from CI to Winterfell, 1320/40 = 33 days.

40,5 days would have lasted Cat's voyage, and 94,5-136,5 days Wylla's voyage. Or 17 (Cat) and 30 (Wylla) days, if they traveled by ships.

If they traveled by land, then Wylla's voyage would have lasted ~2-3 months longer than Catelyn's trip.

It's unlikely that Wylla lingered at Dorne after Jon's birth. Most likely, Ned would have wanted to get Jon to Winterfell as soon as possible. Thus, he arranged their voyage north shortly after Jon's birth/Lyanna's death.

To get to Winterfell, Wylla would have needed 2-3 months more than Cat. So unless Cat lingered at Riverrun for more than 2-3 months after Robb's birth, then Jon was born earlier than Robb. His earlier birth would have compensated that additionally needed travel time.

There is a very slight possibility that Robb was born earlier, though, because Lyanna eloped with Rhaegar at least three months before Robb's conception, I doubt that Jon was born later than Robb.

Again, George has repeatedly stated that he does not do these sort of detailed timeline or travel time calculations and often leaves things vague precisely so that fans won't do this. So I frankly don't understand why so many people base theories off stuff like this.

Even setting that aside, there are several problems with your analysis - 1) you assume that either both of them must have traveled by land, or both of them must have traveled by ship. It's entirely possible that Wylla travelled by ship and Cat by land. AFAIK there's no example in the story of anyone traveling from Riverrun to the north by ship the way you describe. 2) 40 miles a day every day would be an extremely fast to the point of being unrealistic travel time for a highborn woman who had recently given birth traveling with an infant. 3) I think it's entirely plausible that Catelyn spent more than 2-3 months at Riverrun after Robb's birth. There's no real indication given on this. 4) Women don't always get pregnant right away and we don't know that Rhaegar and Lyanna started sleeping together immediately upon running off.

Edited August 10, 2020 by ATaleofSalt&Onions

[ATaleofSalt&Onions]

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All of which is a long winded way of saying, no, Jon was not born "more than 1 year" before Dany... probably closer to eight or nine months or thereabouts.

I do intend to publish a timeline as an appendix in one or other of the later volumes, but even when I do, I am not certain I'm going to start detailing things down to months and days. With such a huge cast of characters, just keeping track of the =years= drives me half mad sometimes. Not to mention the colors of everybody's eyes.

I think people should keep the context of Martin's "8-9 months" comment in mind. It's not an ironclad range. He says the age gap between them is "probably closer to 8 or 9 months or thereabouts" rather than "more than 1 year." When you combine it with his comments (that he has repeated elsewhere) about how he doesn't keep a precise timeline down to the months and days, I think it's a mistake to conclude that Jon must be older than Robb because he had to be born around the Battle of the Trident and there could only be X amount of time between the Battle of the Bells and the Battle of the Trident. I really don't think Martin has thought about the details of the timing of these events with such precision. Taken literally and precisely, you can argue an 8-9 month gap means that Jon had to be born for a while by the ToJ combat because it would have taken Ned X amount of time to get there, but again, I think that's a mistake given Martin's vague and imprecise comments about the gap, and his admissions about timelines and how he hates when fans try to do stuff like calculating travel times to disprove something in the story.  Per Catelyn's recollections, when Robb was born the war was still going on and she wasn't sure Ned would come home alive. To me, that means Robb being older is entirely plausible and if Jon is older it's probably a very small gap between the two. I'm not sure if Martin even has an answer to this question in his head.

[ATaleofSalt&Onions]

4 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

In fact, your entire idea of Daynes and other Dornishmen 'concluding' Jon was Ned's son is crap as can be seen by the fact that Jon was branded a Snow, not a Sand. A bastard born in Dorne would be a Sand, not matter who his father is, just as Mya is a Stone not a Storm. That indicates that Jon Snow was only publicly recognized by anyone at the time he came to Winterfell.

I agree with your overall argument in this post, but I don't think this part is true. The bastard name seems to be based more on where you are raised than where you are born. Obara Sand was born in Oldtown. Brynden Rivers was born in King's Landing, and presumably his sisters were too. Ned's obviously been reticent and vague about a cover story, but it's extremely unlikely that people would believe Jon to have been born in the North, especially since Catelyn, Robert, etc. seem to believe he was conceived after Ned married Catelyn.

[Alexis-something-Rose]

Does Jon even know where he was born? There is nothing in his thoughts about it. When he thinks about the red mountains of Dorne, he doesn't think of it as the place he was born, but as one of the places he wants to see, but won't be able to because he will be a man of the NW.

[Bael's Bastard]

I don't get the impression Jon knows much of anything about his birth

[Wolfking007]

12 minutes ago, Bael's Bastard said:

I don't get the impression Jon knows much of anything about his birth

Jon Snow knows nothing, that is known

[Lord Varys]

1 hour ago, ATaleofSalt&Onions said:

I agree with your overall argument in this post, but I don't think this part is true. The bastard name seems to be based more on where you are raised than where you are born. Obara Sand was born in Oldtown. Brynden Rivers was born in King's Landing, and presumably his sisters were too. Ned's obviously been reticent and vague about a cover story, but it's extremely unlikely that people would believe Jon to have been born in the North, especially since Catelyn, Robert, etc. seem to believe he was conceived after Ned married Catelyn.

Obara Sand only became a noble bastard when her father beat her mother and declared - against the wishes of said abused mother - that she was his daughter. Prior to that she would have been just the daughter of a whore - which means a bastard by default, but without being acknowledged by any nobleman certainly not a bastard with a bastard name (regardless whether it be Flowers or Sand).

This also reflects pretty tellingly on how noble bastards are made - by fiat of the father, who technically can make any fatherless child his own natural child if the mother lacks the power to stop him. And I think this is something to consider in the Daemon Blackfyre case if it turned out that Daena the Defiant was already dead by the time Aegon acknowledged him. If this were so then we would only have Aegon's word that Daemon is his son - which wouldn't be worth anything.

It is good of you to bring up Aegon IV's children - who, after Aegon broke up with their mothers, would have been mostly raised with their maternal families (implicitly confirmed for Aegor Rivers). Yet if we take a look at Missy's children then Aegon was with her for years, meaning her elder children (Mya and Gwenys) would have been pretty old already by the time the king cut ties with her. Are we to believe that the girls (and young Brynden, too) only got his bastard name when Missy moved back to Raventree Hall? Not to mention that with Missy being able to establish close ties with Naerys and Aemon and Daeron we don't actually know whether her children had to leave court with her or whether they were raised at court, possibly as wards of their half-brother, Prince Daeron, on Dragonstone.

If we have a bastard child who is shipped around from place to place in early childhood how (if at all) affects that the bastard name?

This kind of thing just isn't very well thought through.

If Mya wasn't acknowledged by Robert in any capacity she shouldn't have the Stone name - unless she had to bear that because he mother had a name she couldn't pass to her child. But even there it would be odd for her to be a Stone since that's really reserved for noble bastards. We don't meet any commoners who get those name. Hugh Hammer - a blacksmith's bastard - isn't known to anyone as Hugh Waters, despite the fact that people apparently know he is a bastard. Commoners do marry, too, and apparently Hugh's father had an affair with an unmarried commoner, producing this bastard.

In that sense I'd say Sansa is just talking nonsense there - Robert did acknowledge Mya, but Sansa isn't aware of that because people don't talk about it. She herself in her role as Alayne Stone also can carry a bastard name without having two parents, just as Jon Snow back at Winterfell could. Although I must say that George really doesn't make sense there - we have Sansa at this apprenticeship of Littlefinger's there: uncovering secrets and spotting lies is her trade, yet she fails to figure out/realize who and what Mya Stone is? That is one of the letdowns in AFfC.

Edric Storm's case is more convoluted due to the fact that we don't really know when exactly he was shipped to Storm's End. Does it make sense to drop him there while Renly was still a small boy? Did Renly even live at Storm's End back around the time Edric was born? When did Delena Florent part with her child, and why? We have no idea.

But regardless whether place of birth and/or place of living or place of living of (a) parent(s) affect the bastard name thing - the core point is that without a nobleman acknowledging a child as his bastard you don't get a bastard name.

And you certainly don't get it by some random guy treating you as if you were/might be his child.

[SFDanny]

2 hours ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

Does Jon even know where he was born? There is nothing in his thoughts about it. When he thinks about the red mountains of Dorne, he doesn't think of it as the place he was born, but as one of the places he wants to see, but won't be able to because he will be a man of the NW.

No, there is no reason to think a infant would be that aware of his surroundings.

If we take Robb, or any child of a noble family, for an example we would expect both mother and child would not be expected to travel shortly after birth. I would guess Robb is something on the order of six months old before he and Catelyn venture out from Riverrun on their way north. I would not expect Robb to remember anything about Riverrun as the place of his birth or of the surrounding Riverlands. He would, however, know as he grows up that was where he was born. 

Jon is the exception to this rule, if he really is the child of Rhaegar and Lyanna, born at the Tower of Joy. Our suspicions are that Jon, based on the things I've said earlier is born sometime from around the sack of King's Landing to maybe six weeks later. We know, or at least most of us think we know, Lyanna dies at the Tower after Ned arrives. This places Jon age when Ned arrives from a newborn child to less than two months old. A popular theory has always been that Lyanna dies of the "doctor's disease" or puerperal fever. Which, if true, means a birth less than a fortnight before Lyanna's death. The point being, Jon would likely be traveling to Starfall in the company of a wet nurse at less than a month old.

The question is then, why does Ned risk taking Jon to Starfall? Obviously, I think the answer is that he knows what reception he will find there. I believe he goes there in an effort to hide Jon's origins and knows he will get help in doing so from the Daynes. One reason I think it likely Ashara is among those who travels with Ned, Jon, Howland, and Wylla there.

But none of this means Ned would inform Jon of the place of his birth as he grows older. Far from it. In fact, I think it likely Ned's Northern troops first learn of Jon's existence when Neds returns to them from Starfall - thus the rumors of Ashara - but Ned is also unlikely to tell any of them exactly where he picked up Jon in his journey since he left them at Storm's End. As far as they know, Jon could have joined Ned's party in the Stormlands, the Reach, or Dorne. So, we have no reason to expect anyone to be able to tell Jon anything about the place of his birth other than rumors.

Edited August 10, 2020 by SFDanny

[corbon]

6 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

That is just in your head. Jon Snow has the status he has because Eddard Stark formally acknowledged him as his natural son, branded him with the Snow name as a noble bastard, and raised him at the castle of Winterfell together with his trueborn children.

Why is mine 'just in my head' despite exactly fitting all examples and yours, un-evidenced in the text, and literally counter-textual in the Sansa-Mya instance, not 'just in your head'?
The only difference between mine and yours is the formal part. For which there is no evidence or indication independent of what fits mine.
At least mine works in all cases.

6 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

In fact, your entire idea of Daynes and other Dornishmen 'concluding' Jon was Ned's son is crap as can be seen by the fact that Jon was branded a Snow, not a Sand. A bastard born in Dorne would be a Sand, no matter who his father is, just as Mya is a Stone not a Storm. That indicates that Jon Snow was only publicly recognized by anyone at the time he came to Winterfell.

No, you just have the name branding system wrong, as shown by @Megorova. 

6 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Sort of like Robert may have recognized Delena's child even before the birth, explaining why Edric, although possibly born at Brightwater Keep, became a Storm not a Flowers. But then, the Edric Storm thing is nonsense, too, considering Robert was king by the time he fathered Edric, meaning the boy should have been a Waters by virtue of the place where his father lived or a Flowers by virtue of the place he was born. He shouldn't be a Storm unless Delena gave birth to him in the Stormlands.

See. Out of your own mouth. Your 'system' doesn't actually fit known examples, but its GRRM that is wrong, not your system? I know its most likely you're just going to be more pissed and more snide at my answers, but its just possible you'll actually pay attention and re-examine.

6 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Unless, of course, this is just an inherently inconsistent system and nobody knows why a person gets the bastard name they have.

Its mostly coherent, you just have it wrong.
Like most things 'legal' in Westeros its not entirely consistent and varies from case to case.

6 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

LOL, if fucking Rhaegar can fuck his little filly, Lyanna Stark, surely Ashara Dayne could also be into inexperienced little boys, no?

Oh I didn't say its impossible.
Its just amusing that you think it reasonable enough not to surprise you.

6 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

LOL, man, either I'm making sense here, or the author does not.

Of course. You're right or he's wrong. No other possibility exists. 

6 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Either way - your 'interpretation' there is just utter nonsense. If a man just playing around with a child, showing favors to him or her, means people think this man must be her father, then pretty much any nobleman sponsoring some common dude or lass would be informally seen as their father, and those children would be branded with the bastard name which might ruin their lives.

There's more to it than that. She looked like him, he'd fucked her mother 9 months before she was born.

People have brains. They can 'know' stuff without literal proof. Throwing out stupid straw men examples doesn't help you.

6 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Apparently she is. Or she might believe Mya's mother - who she doesn't know anything about - was a noblewoman/enough so that Mya Stone would be seen as a Stone. We know the mother was supposedly a commoner, but she could still have been a commoner with a family name. If she had one, this might be enough for her to be branded with the Stone name since she couldn't get her mother's family name.

Yep, just as predicted. Sansa, who is a social snob, doesn't understand the social customs she uses. But you have a 'system' and its always right, even when its contradicted by the books. The books and the people in them are wrong.

6 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Nope, that isn't the indication at all. The indication is that you only get that name if some noble dude acknowledges you ... unless, perhaps, if the mother herself had a family name she couldn't pass on to her natural child.

Riiiight.
Sansa thinks Mya, who is widely known to have a common mother, is unacknowledged, but has a second name anyway. And the implication is that you only get a name if a nobleman acknowledges you.

Black is white and white is black.
Whatever is needed to keep you 'right'.

6 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

LOL, no. That is just nonsense.

Well, I admit I left out some other rather obvious bits. I expect people to understand those.

6 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

LOL again - they were looking Valyrian and were obviously Velaryon bastards, possibly even Targaryen bastards. Their mother didn't look Valyrian, so by virtue of looks they could have claimed the Waters name for themselves. But they didn't, because it would have been dangerous for them.

Indeed. Because their father wasn't interested in acknowledging them at that time. Taking the Waters name would have implicated a powerful Lord who didn't want to be involved. So they didn't. Thats those flexible customs thing going on.

6 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

You don't get such a name because some dude visits you. Everybody can visit with some girl and play around with her. The very idea that this was how that kind of thing happened is ludicrous. Then no man who liked to play around with children could afford to play with fatherless children because it would increase the risk they would be seen as his bastards.
If Mya got the Stone name because of Robert then Robert must have acknowledged her. Now this may have been somewhat clandestinely done considering Robert was ashamed of his bastards, perhaps even only through Jon Arryn who may have given Mya noble bastard status to grant her some incomes and later her job, etc. but the idea that you become a [named] bastard by virtue of hanging out with a guy is ludicrous.

I thought the idea of someone ignoring the other unstated parts (she looked like Robert and Robert fucked her mama 9 months before she was born) was ludicrous. 

6 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

By that logic, Gendry also should have been an acknowledged bastard because he was receiving funds from court via Varys. The boy should have been introduced to Tobho Mott as Gendry Waters, not just Gendry, especially since it was pretty obvious to people who he was.

Except it wasn't obvious to almost anyone around Gendry. Gendry wasn't receiving funds himself, he didn't have 'spending money'or anything, Varys was secretly covering him with Tobho Mott and only Varys and Mott knew that most likely, at least until Jon Arryn. Varys wasn't telling and Mott may or may not know exactly who Varys is covering for but also isn't telling. Its not exactly good business to advertise Robert's bastard's with Cersei's range.
Its only 'obvious' to noblemen who know Robert personally and have been directed in Gendry's direction. They aren't the people naming Gendry.

[Alexis-something-Rose]

55 minutes ago, SFDanny said:

No, there is no reason to think a infant would be that aware of his surroundings.

Really? All my expectations of infants have now been dashed. 

Do I think Ned told Jon he was born in Dorne? No. I don't. I'm not even clear whether Jon thinks his mother is alive or dead. He seems to think that she didn't want him, though. Whether this is his own idea or something he was told remains to be seen.

I think Jon knows he wasn't born in the north. Did Ned tell him he was born somewhere in the riverlands? I think as far as locations go, the riverlands would make sense since Ned would have been in there until right after the BotT. 

Anyway. It doesn't matter. I was just curious to see what the reply would be. Timeline talk is tedious. The AGoT timeline is a dumpster fire, especially when Jon's birth is plugged into it.

[corbon]

6 hours ago, Megorova said:

It seems that the bastard-children get their bastard name based on the origin of their mothers.

There isn't a coherent and consistent system.
Bastards (who have them) mostly get their second names from where they were raised - the people around them deciding what to call them - and if they get the second same at all. Thats mostly by the mother's origin because its natural for a child to be raised where its mother is and most mothers don't shift regions, but not always. And a powerful father can change that too.
Probably a clever and unscrupulous individual can change it for themselves to if they go to a new place.

Frankly the whole thing is based on the convenience of those around them, IMO. This is custom, not rule or law.

6 hours ago, Megorova said:

Mya is a Stone because her mother is a Valewoman.

I think Mya is a Stone because she was raised in the vale and not 'claimed' (acknowledged) by Robert. People knew she was Robert's bastard, so she got a second name, they couldn't name call her Storm because he didn't acknowledge her, so they called her Stone.

6 hours ago, Megorova said:

Edric is a Storm because his mother is a Stormlander (or is she from The Reach? ).

She's from the Reach. Edric is a Storm because either or both of his father acknowledged him and he was raised in the Stormlands. I think Robert acknowledging him would have more 'power' of the two in defining his name. Either way, its most convenient for those around him and involved that he be called Storm.

6 hours ago, Megorova said:

Bloodraven and Bittersteel were Rivers (not Waters, even though their father was a King), because their mothers were from Riverlands. Daemon I Blackfyre originally was Daemon Waters, because his mother was from King's Landing.

I think in this case this is right - their father being 'known' didn't over-ride the mothers location because he was such a lecher that it made things simpler at court to differentiate by the mother's location - Aegon IV didn't care, and it was their mother's status as mistresses that gave them their place at court, so it works better to tie them to their mothers.
Convenience to the people involved, no hard and fast rule.

6 hours ago, Megorova said:

Also there was Glendon Flowers, son of Quentyn Ball. Apparently, his mother, same as his father, was from The Reach. So, Quentyn was Flowers, even though he was born at King's Landing.

I think the Flowers name is given to him by his mother regardless of where she came from, to tie him to his father.
Convenience to the mother, not by 'rule', IMO. And no one is there to deny her.

6 hours ago, Megorova said:

In case with Jon

Snow because he was raised as Ned's and in Winterfell.

6 hours ago, Megorova said:

and Sand Snakes, they got their bastard names based on their fathers' place of origin - The North and Dorne, Snow and Sand. Because Ned was hiding who Jon's mother was, and thus he wasn't given a bastard name based on his mother's origin. And even though some information is known about mothers of some of Sand Snakes, such as that one of them is a septa at Oldtown, and that the other one is a trader from Summer Islands, their names are not publicly known, and thus their origin is also not revealed, and that's why their daughters got Sand as their bastard name, based on their father's origin.

Sand Snakes are Sand's because Oberyn claims them. Convenience.

6 hours ago, Megorova said:

So, the bastard name is given to a child, based on his/her mother's origin. But if the mother's origin is not known, then they are named based on their father's origin.

P.S. If the child was given a bastard name based on the place of birth, then Jon should have been a Sand, and Glendon Ball should have been a Waters (because he was born at King's Landing, where his mother opened a brothel after the war).

So, probably, Mya is a Stone, because of her mother, and Edric is a Storm, because he wasn't named based on his mother's origin. That's because he was acknowledged by his father, who was a Stormlander, and that's why he is a Storm.

There. Now it all fits. They have a complicated naming system, that differentiates children's' naming based on circumstances.

Jon was acknowledged by his Northman father, Sand Snakes were acknowledged by Oberyn/Dornishman, Edric by Robert/Stormlander. While Mya, was not acknowledged, and thus was named a Stone, after her mother's origin. Same with Glendon Flowers, unacknowledged by Quentyn Ball, born at King's Landing, by a mother who was from The Reach.

Bittersteel and Bloodraven don't fit. They were Aegon's bastards, acknowledged and known by all as such. 
The Hull brother's don't fit. They didn't even get a name, because it wasn't convenient for those around them.
Tyrion Tanner isn't Waters, despite his mother being a noble Stokeworth and his father unknown, because its more convenient (amusing) for Bronn to name him Tanner.
 

[SFDanny]

5 hours ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

Really? All my expectations of infants have now been dashed. 

Do I think Ned told Jon he was born in Dorne? No. I don't. I'm not even clear whether Jon thinks his mother is alive or dead. He seems to think that she didn't want him, though. Whether this is his own idea or something he was told remains to be seen.

I think Jon knows he wasn't born in the north. Did Ned tell him he was born somewhere in the riverlands? I think as far as locations go, the riverlands would make sense since Ned would have been in there until right after the BotT. 

Anyway. It doesn't matter. I was just curious to see what the reply would be. Timeline talk is tedious. The AGoT timeline is a dumpster fire, especially when Jon's birth is plugged into it.

Sorry, for stating the obvious, but I really was only trying to respond to a poster I respect - you.

[SFDanny]

10 hours ago, ATaleofSalt&Onions said:

I think people should keep the context of Martin's "8-9 months" comment in mind. It's not an ironclad range. He says the age gap between them is "probably closer to 8 or 9 months or thereabouts" rather than "more than 1 year."

I agree. Too many people forget the "thereabouts" in his quote. Which is why I think it is important to give a three month window on Jon's birth. It would be very nice if we had an actual date of the sack of King's Landing and or the Battle of the Trident. I don't expect that until possibly Fire & Blood volume 2.

10 hours ago, ATaleofSalt&Onions said:

When you combine it with his comments (that he has repeated elsewhere) about how he doesn't keep a precise timeline down to the months and days, I think it's a mistake to conclude that Jon must be older than Robb because he had to be born around the Battle of the Trident and there could only be X amount of time between the Battle of the Bells and the Battle of the Trident. 

Which is why I don't conclude Jon is older. Jon may be older. We don't know yet. What we do know is that Robb is thought to be older, and that the boys are of a similar age.

10 hours ago, ATaleofSalt&Onions said:

 I really don't think Martin has thought about the details of the timing of these events with such precision. Taken literally and precisely, you can argue an 8-9 month gap means that Jon had to be born for a while by the ToJ combat because it would have taken Ned X amount of time to get there, but again, I think that's a mistake given Martin's vague and imprecise comments about the gap, and his admissions about timelines and how he hates when fans try to do stuff like calculating travel times to disprove something in the story.  Per Catelyn's recollections, when Robb was born the war was still going on and she wasn't sure Ned would come home alive. To me, that means Robb being older is entirely plausible and if Jon is older it's probably a very small gap between the two. I'm not sure if Martin even has an answer to this question in his head.

Here I disagree. This is not a convoluted logic problem for George. This is a note keeping problem for George. Somewhere Martin has notes which say when his characters were born, what their hair and eye color is, when important events take place, etc. For us trying to sort out timelines from the clues our author leaves us is a monstrous logic matrix puzzle, but it is not that for George. Martin's challenge is keeping his sequencing right, and that has much more to do with the timing of events in differing story lines as they develop than it does the date of character births.

[SerTarod]

On 8/10/2020 at 1:57 AM, corbon said:

 
Ned picked up his bastard in Dorne. He went to Dorne without one and came back with one. Even an utter moron can narrow down (rightly or wrongly) 'some peasant woman' to 'some Dornish peasant woman' without hearing any 'rumour' about the mother.

 

Where is this stated in the books? I am curious, as I just realised after reading the back and forth (at the time of Corbon's post above) that I don't know where it is stated what Jon's origins are. The earliest mention of Jon, is Catelyn arriving at Winterfell for the first time and finding Jon and nanny in place. 

I checked on the Wiki and it isn't clear either. 

[Alexis-something-Rose]

7 hours ago, SFDanny said:

Sorry, for stating the obvious, but I really was only trying to respond to a poster I respect - you.

No harm, no foul