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R + L = J v.167


Ygrain
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On 8/20/2020 at 3:04 PM, Lord Varys said:

Oh, I don't think that is why Ned has that dream at all. Ned was looking for his sister, and he may have known that Lya and Rhaegar were married by that point, he may have even known that she was pregnant. I think that entire exchange reflects Ned's sadness and loathing to find those men here, with his sister, of all people. Instead of doing their actual job of protecting the king and the royal family they act as gaolers/protectors/whatever of Lyanna Stark.

In any of the other scenarios he suggests Ned and his friends would have been unlikely to face those men (one of which Ned actually respects and may have respected even before they met at that tower) in combat but rather in a scenario where a conflict could have been avoided or other people (Robert personally, say) could have taken care of them.

But here, with Lya, this was his personal business. Stark business, if you will, and he had to go through with the bloody work.

This is, after all, a dream. It is not a straight recollection. And dreaming Ned knows about Lya and her child, remembers both the event outside the tower and whatever Lya told him about the events.

The three KG talk as if they were great Aerys loyalists, when in fact Dayne and Whent were half-turnclaoks/traitors at least, hanging out with Rhaegar when their king and his throne were in danger. Especially Whent has no right to even positively reference Aerys II, after apparently being involved in a scheme to depose the king or circumvent royal authority with the Harrenhal tourney plan. And Gerold Hightower ended up abandoning his king for Lyanna Stark and her unborn child, too, which is a strange priority for a proper loyalist.

That kind of simplistic view reeks as if this is a reconstruction of events by Ned's dreaming subconscious, not acurate representation of their actual exchange ... especially not of their actual convictions.

You repeat things I've already said and call it "simplistic"? Try again, LV.

I do think it is possible the exchange does not reflect an accurate conversation between Ned and the Kingsguard. Possible but uncertain. We can be sure that the things in Ned's dream do reflect moments that have and continue to trouble him greatly. This is a recurring dream after all. We can also be sure that what Ned says is based on the actual history of events that are verified elsewhere in the story. It does tell us, that even if this is a "reconstruction of events by Ned's subconscious" and not an "accurate representation of their actual exchange" that the motivations of these men in forcing a duel still troubles Lord Stark, and that he is  deeply troubled by not being able to avoid this battle.

You seem to lay this at the feet of the Kingsguard's dereliction of duty. That somehow Ned has a recurring dream admonishing them for not doing what a Kingsguard Oath tells them they should do. This view does fly in the face of Ned's professed respect for at least Dayne. I would say you don't understand Ned's character if that is what you reduce this dream to. It is much more likely that Ned is troubled by, and even obsessed by, what he sees as the needless deaths of his companions and the Kingsguard themselves. It is the fact of Hightower, Whent, and Dayne seeing it their duty to kill Ned and his party to prevent them from getting to at least his sister that makes Ned dream this dream over and over. In hindsight Ned can see why the three would see him as a threat to Lya and, perhaps, to Jon. He knows his love for his sister is what brings him there. He knows it isn't to capture her and turn her over into a forced marriage to Robert. He knows, that he would not harm or let any harm come to Lyanna's child. But the Kingsguard do not know this, and it is this perceived threat he and his party represent to Lyanna and Jon that force the bloodshed spilt at the Tower. It is a great tragedy that haunts Ned's dreams that the deaths could not be avoided.

If you think Ned is troubled over and over again by the Kingsguard not doing their duty, then you have misread this scene, in my humble opinion. And, again, I think you grossly misread Ned's character. It is my read of this scene that Ned regrets this fight precisely because he would have done the same thing the Kingsguard did if the roles were reversed. He would have died protecting her from a threat he knows that even Lyanna herself saw in him. The fear in her eyes that goes away when Ned gives her his promises is proof of that. Lyanna is fearful that Ned will put his honor bound duty to Robert ahead of her pleas to the loving brother she once knew. The Kingsguard see him as a commander of the rebellion, a loyal man to Robert, and a threat to Lyanna and her child because of those things.

Lastly, let me say that Ned's respect for Dayne includes his knowledge that Ser Arthur was Rhaegar's best friend and confidant as well as his most loyal sworn sword and protector. If Whent was to be despised for his help to Rhaegar in his plots to set aside his father, then why is Ser Arthur exempt from Ned's scorn? Because of his skills in battle? Because he has such a great "bitchin" sword and title? That's not Ned. He admires these men because they lay their lives down to protect his sister and her child - from him! That's the reason he dreams this dream over and over again some 15 years later. That's what Martin wants us to understand from this scene, and why it is so import to the story.

On 8/20/2020 at 3:04 PM, Lord Varys said:

I don't think anyone dismisses the dream as such. It establishes rather crucial things - that those KG apparently were with Lyanna Stark and that they opposed Ned and his friends for some reason and had to be killed. It is as such one of the very crucial tidbits that establishes an actual connection between Lyanna Stark and the royal institutions of House Targaryen, namely the Kingsguard, meaning she could have been more than just a rape victim or mistress. It also establishes something about how the Kingsguard like to see themselves - as stalwart people who are loyal to a command or a mission until the very end, and then some (considering that both the Mad King and Rhaegar were long dead when they died for them).

It is not a sequence that tells us anything about legal implications, loyalty, kingship, or other such things.

To the bolded, some readers do, even if you are not one of them.

To your last sentence, if the dream tells us anything it tells us to pay attention to the why of what motivates the Kingsguard's actions. It may include questions of loyalties, kingship, and, depending on what you mean by the phrase "legal implications" it may include those as well.

The rest we agree upon. I will respond to the rest of your post later. Now, back to bed. It's very late here in the smoke filled city of San Francisco.

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On 8/21/2020 at 6:47 PM, Ygrain said:

So, Ned happened to run into them right at the location which Rhaegar called "his tower of joy" for no apparent reason, and they all climbed up the ridge to the tower to have a fight there? Because this is what this scenario requires - the-doom-and-gloom Rhaegar referring to some tower in the middle of nowhere "tower of joy", though he had zero connection to it, and two travelling parties that run into each other abandoning the road to climb up to a watchtower for better view (and no, camping at the tower doesn't explain why the other party thought it would be a good idea to climb up to check who's camping there).

Not to mention the bloody coincidence of Ned's memories of Lyanna's death (roses, blood, "promise me") being reflected to a dream about a fight and location which had nothing to do with Lyanna's death.

 

No, of course not. :rolleyes:

My version of those events is something like this:

When Rhaegar and Lyanna eloped together, they went to Starfall thru the Prince's Pass. They made a stop at the Tower. It wasn't an abandoned tower. There was a well with water, and food, and a maester with ravens. Maester Marwyn. What the heck was he doing in the middle of nowhere? Could be that he was settled there because of the Tower's proximity to Summerhall. Rhaegar friquently visited Summerhall's ruins, and he was a bit obsessed with the prophecy, same as Marwyn. So they were friends, and Rhaegar shared with Marwyn information from The Book of Signs and Portens, writen by Daenys the Dreamer, the book that was kept in Targaryen private library. Egg said to Dunk that King Daeron have read in a book a prophecy that dragons will return. That was the same book. The same book, reading which Rhaegar originally thought, that he supposed to become a warrior, at that time, when he thought, that he is the Promised Prince. So he went to Summerhall, and when he slept there, he saw prophetic dragondreams, same as Daenys, and Daeron the Drunkard, and Daemon II Blackfyre. And when he visited Summerhall, he also visited Marwyn at the Tower.

Then Rhaegar and Lyanna went to Starfall, where they remained until Gerold Hightower came to fetch Rhaegar. They went back thru the Prince's Pass, and on the way to King's Landing also stopped at the Tower.

Shortly after Rhaegar departed from Starfall, Lyanna realised that she is pregnant. And then she either sent a raven to the Tower to Marwyn to inform Rhaegar, or she sent a messenger, on a boat around eastern Dorne and thru Wyl river, and from there it's only 1-2 days to the Tower. So by the time when Rhaegar and Gerold arrived to the Tower, the messenger or a raven with the message was already there. Thus Rhaegar named that Tower the Tower of Joy, because he was there at that time when he received best news of his life.

From the Tower of Joy he sent Gerold back to Starfall to stay with Lyanna, and also to escort Marwyn there, to assist during Lyanna's labour.

If 3KG took Jon with them, when they departed from Starfall, then could be that they also took Marwyn with them (Marwyn and his ravens). They needed him to give a testament about the baby's identity, that this child is really Prince's Rhaegar's son.

When Lyanna died, Ned and his companions took a ship that brought them thru Wyl river, and from then on they went by land. So they arrived to the Tower of Joy not thru Prince's Pass. And Ned was at that moment remembering Lyanna's final words and the promise that he gave her, because she asked him to stop those people from revealing Jon's existence, and to do that he had to kill them. He remembered her words, at the moment when it became obvious, that now he will have to fight with those people to death, to fulfil his promise.

Lyanna told Ned that 3KG went thru the Prince's Pass, and that they will stop at the Tower, because they will need to rest, and to replentish their water supply, or something like that. And the Tower is the only place where they could have stopped on the way out of Dorne. That's how Ned knew that he can intercept them.

After the fight Marwyn went to Essos, where he met Shiera Seastar/Quaithe, and became her apprentice. Mirri Maz Duur also was one of Quaithe's disciples. So when Dany was giving birth to Rhaego, Mirri by magic summoned both Marwyn and Shiera to Drogo's tent. Dany saw Marwyn as Drogo, and then as Jorah, who said that Rhaegar was the last dragon, and then disappeared. Marwyn and Shiera were using glass candles. Dany saw Shiera as ghosts with green and blue eyes, and also as fire and wings, and smiling and whispering stars. And in her last chapter in ADWD, there's a big clue about Quaithe's real identity - Dany noticed that her mask is made of starlight.

Could be that the Faceless Men are aware that Marwyn is a keeper of some great secret, that's why they sent Jaqen/Alchemist/Pate to him. And at first Jaqen was targeting the Tower of the Hand, because at that time Ned Stark was the Hand, and Black Cells, in which Jaqen was held, were under the Hand's Tower. So FM thought that they will be able to find that secret amongst Ned's documents. And when they didn't found there whatever they were searching, they went to the Citadel to search thru Marwyn's documents. Or maybe they knew that the secret could be found thru Marwyn, because Ned was writing to Marwyn and was receiving messages from him. Based on that correspondence, FM figured out that the next step is to go to the Citadel, because whatever they are looking for is there.

Or it was Euron Greyjoy, who informed them that the information they are looking for, could be found thru Marwyn. And Euron knew this because he also was Quaithe's disciple. Quaithe is the Three-Eyed Crow, and Euron is the Crow's Eye. He made an agreement with FM, that they will kill his brother, and then Euron gave them information that they needed, and after killing Balon, Jaqen/Alchemist went to the Citadel, where he killed and impersonated Pate.

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@Megorova am I right in thinking you believe Lyanna died at Starfall, not at the Tower of Joy? We are told explicitly in the app that is where she died. Ned's dream also ties her death to that location. What then is the basis for claiming she dies in Starfall, if I read you right? How and why would the Daynes let Ned into Starfall while the war is still ongoing?

I would also point to maesters living a life of service. Normally they reside either at some lord's court or the Citadel. Why do you think Marwyn would be in an old watchtower overlooking the Prince's Pass? I have long advocate for the idea that he is the trusted maester in attendance to Lyanna to help her through her pregnancy. If we have the cause of death right as being Puerperal Fever, then he is likely also the unwitting cause of her death. Perhaps he should have studied with Mirri Maz Duur before that time.

I do think there is some very creative thinking here in an area we have little information about.

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1 hour ago, Bael's Bastard said:

Does anyone think it likely that the same person informed Ned both that Lyanna was at the TOJ and that Rhaegar had called it the Tower of Joy? 

At this point almost all things are possible. However, I lean to the sources being different. Perhaps because I think the person who tells Ned Lyanns's location will turn out to be someone relatively unimportant to the story. All it takes is someone in King's Landing or among the besiegers at Storm's End that have heard the rumors that sent Ser Gerold Hightower there. I doubt the White Bull arrives at the Tower by himself, or that Rhaegar has no one with him on his travels back to King's Landing. Alternatively anyone who helped supply the Tower would have the information Ned needs to find his sister. After the sack or the lifting of the siege, such a person would have very valuable piece of information to use to ingratiate themselves with Lord Stark.

The name Rhaegar gives the Tower was likely limited to a smaller circle. So, I would think it more likely Ned hears the name from whomever travels south to Starfall with him. But many variations are certainly possible.

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10 hours ago, Megorova said:

snip

Very creative thinking indeed. 

So, if I'm reading you correctly, Lyanna died at Starfall, in Ned's presence, as we know from his memories, and the fight at ToJ happened only afterwards? So Ned went to Starfall a second time to return Dawn?

5 hours ago, Bael's Bastard said:

Is the "Starfall" theory that Ned found both Lyanna and Jon at Starfall, or that Ned found Lyanna at the Tower of Joy and then recovered Jon at Starfall?

The latter, or at least this was what Ran proposed.

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10 hours ago, SFDanny said:

What then is the basis for claiming she dies in Starfall, if I read you right?

They had found him still holding her body, silent with grief.   Who are They?  Is it possible that they are the Silent Sisters who's business it is to prepare the body for transportation back to Winterfell.

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4 hours ago, LynnS said:

They had found him still holding her body, silent with grief.   Who are They?  Is it possible that they are the Silent Sisters who's business it is to prepare the body for transportation back to Winterfell.

Why would that possibility indicate Ned is in Starfall when he is found holding Lyanna's body? We have direct evidence that is not the case. It is not as if there can be no Silent Sisters in the area of the Tower, or anywhere from there to Starfall. Given that Ned is holding his recently deceased sister's body, I highly doubt Howland or anyone else has already gone for the Silent Sisters to wisk away her corpse. Given we know Lyanna died at the Tower, then your supposition is based on Ned carrying Lyanna's body on a very long journey from the Tower of Joy to Starfall. It is much more likely the "they" the finds Ned is not inclusive of Silent Sisters, but of Howland and whoever else was at the Tower where Lyanna died. The preparation of the bones for burial is not something that requires Silent Sisters to accomplish, but if they were involved in the task, then it is much more likely someone of the "they" goes to get them and brings them to the Tower after "they" find Ned holding the dead Lyanna.

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1 hour ago, SFDanny said:

Why would that possibility indicate Ned is in Starfall when he is found holding Lyanna's body? We have direct evidence that is not the case.

I didn't say she was at Starfall.  I'm suggesting that the mysterious people who were there, (wherever there is) are Silent Sisters who attend to the dead.  Especially since Lyanna wanted to be buried in the crypts.  Ned has turned over several friends to the Silent Sisters to send the bodies back to their loved ones.  I am also doubting that Lyanna died t the ToJ.  Where she died, I don't know. 

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14 hours ago, SFDanny said:

am I right in thinking you believe Lyanna died at Starfall, not at the Tower of Joy? We are told explicitly in the app that is where she died. Ned's dream also ties her death to that location. What then is the basis for claiming she dies in Starfall, if I read you right? How and why would the Daynes let Ned into Starfall while the war is still ongoing?

The war was already over by the time Ned arrived to Starfall. Furthermore, I'm sure that Ashara was Lyanna's friend, since Harrenhal's tournament. Also I think that Daynes let Ned into Starfall, because Howland Reed was with Ned. I think that Ashara and Howland fell in love some time after Harrenhal's tournament, and in 283 they had a child - Meera. I think that Howland's wife, Jyana Reed, is actually Ashara Dayne (she took a new name Jyana similar to her dead friend Lyanna's name). So, obviously when Ned and Howland came to Starfall they were let in.

Could be that when Rhaegar "kidnapped" Lyanna, not only Arthur Dayne was amongst his escort, but Ashara also was there. She was Lyanna's chaperon until the wedding.

Ned's dream doesn't tie Lyanna's death to that location (the Tower of Joy). That dream is one thing, and it's a feverish and jumbled mess, while in reality what actually happened was happening differently. First Ned went to Starfall, because while he was at Storm's End, he got information that Lyanna is at Starfall, and that's where he went. When he came there, Lyanna already gave birth to Jon, and she was dying, while 3KG were going thru Prince's Pass (either with Jon, or without him). Lyanna was afraid not of what Ned can do to her child, instead she was afraid what 3KG's actions will cause. She asked Ned to stop them at any cost. And, in case if they also took Jon with them, when they left, she also asked Ned to get her child back. She died, Howland and Ashara were those "they" who found Ned with Lyanna's body. Then Ned and Howland went after 3KG. They intercepted them at the Tower of Joy. Then happened that conversation between them, that was shown in Ned's fevered dream. In reality, when that conversation was happening, Ned remembered what Lyanna made him to promise, and thus he fought with 3KG and killed them. While in a dream he heard Lyanna's calling him, prior the fight started. And in a dream he found dying Lyanna in a bed of blood already after the fight, while in reality first he found Lyanna at Starfall, and only then went to the Tower, where he fought with KG. GRRM did said something like that the dreams are misleading. So, could be that even though, according to Ned's dream, it seems that Lyanna died at the Tower of Joy, it could be a misconception caused by Ned dream, and actually Lyanna died at Starfall, days before the fight with KG.

The app could be intentionally misleading. What does the app says about Rhaego? That he is dead? Wait for the next book, Rhaego will be definitely alive in there. Does the app says that the Three-Eyed Crow is Brynden Rivers? That's also a red herring, because the Three-Eyed Crow is Shiera Seastar. You can think that I'm making up all this crazy theories, though you'll see later that I am right (about Rhaego and Shiera). Did the app says that Jon is Ned Stark's bastard? But we do know that that isn't truth.

15 hours ago, SFDanny said:

I would also point to maesters living a life of service. Normally they reside either at some lord's court or the Citadel.

Nevertheless it is known that Marwyn went to Essos and was staying there for years, studing, not serving to anyone.

15 hours ago, SFDanny said:

Why do you think Marwyn would be in an old watchtower overlooking the Prince's Pass?

The Summerhall was burned ruins, not in a livable conditions. So if someone wanted to make researches of what happened at Summerhall, or considered Summerhall to be a "place of power", and if he wanted to keep his activity in secret, then he couldn't have turned for help (to resupply food and water) to a nearby castles, such as Ashford or Blackhaven. So instead he made a base at the Tower in the Prince's Pass. When Rhaegar went to Summerhall, before going back to King's Landing, he went to the Tower to Marwyn, where he rested, and took food and water for his journey back to KL. Both Marwyn and Rhaegar mistakenly thought that Rhaegar was the Promised Prince, and thus they also mistakenly thought that the place of Rhaegar's birth, Summerhall, is the place of power, important for the prophecy's realisation. Though they were wrong, and the real place of power is Starfall (where Jon was born under the bleeding stars), and Dragonstone (where was born the other Azor Ahai/Dany).

So it was Rhaegar, who settled Marwyn at the Tower.

15 hours ago, SFDanny said:

I have long advocate for the idea that he is the trusted maester in attendance to Lyanna to help her through her pregnancy. If we have the cause of death right as being Puerperal Fever, then he is likely also the unwitting cause of her death. Perhaps he should have studied with Mirri Maz Duur before that time.

I think that Marwyn not only assisted Lyanna during Jon's birth, but also that he assisted Elia during Rhaenys' and Aegon's birth.

It doesn't make sense for Rhaegar and Lyanna to stay at the Tower, if they could have went to Starfall. Arthur Dayne was with them. <- That's a clue for where they went after they eloped.

Could be that Lyanna died at the Tower of Joy, though I still highly doubt that she was staying there during entire length of Rebellion. If she indeed died at the Tower, then, most likely, until Rhaegar's death, she was staying at Starfall. But when she found out that Rhaegar is dead, she departed from Starfall, with intentions to go and stop Ned and Robert. But they (Lyanna and KG) had to stop at the Tower, because she went into labour. Though this scenario is possible, I think that it's very unlikely. I doubt that people that were with Lyanna, and Lyanna herself, were willing to risk her and her unborn baby's life and health, so they would have prevented her from going anywhere, and thus she was staying at Starfall. And Marwyn was also at Starfall, and Wylla, and Ashara and newborn Meera.

14 hours ago, Bael's Bastard said:

Is the "Starfall" theory that Ned found both Lyanna and Jon at Starfall, or that Ned found Lyanna at the Tower of Joy and then recovered Jon at Starfall?

No. My theory is that Lyanna gave birth to Jon at Starfall. And at Starfall she died. That's where Ned found her shortly prior her death. The fight between Ned and 3KG happened later, after Lyanna's death.

And Jon at the time of that fight was either at the Tower (if KG took him with intentions to crown him, or to give him to Robert), or he was at Starfall (in this case Ned went after 3KG specifically to kill them, to prevent them from revealing Lyann's secret).

Jon was recovered by Ned either at the Tower of Joy, or after the fight with 3KG Ned went back to Starfall, where he left Jon with dead Lyanna (in case if 3KG didn't took Jon with them, when they departed from Starfall).

Lyanna wasn't at the Tower of Joy. She died at Starfall.

9 hours ago, Ygrain said:

So, if I'm reading you correctly, 1. Lyanna died at Starfall, in Ned's presence, as we know from his memories, and 2. the fight at ToJ happened only afterwards? 3. So Ned went to Starfall a second time to return Dawn?

1.2.3. Yes, yes, yes.

He went to Starfall not only to return Dawn, but also because Howland Reed was with him, and he (Howland) was the father of Ashara's baby. I think that they were able to defeat Arthur Dayne only because Arthur was reluctant to kill the father of his niece/nephew/Asahara's baby. After Arthur's death, Howland and Ashara couldn't have officially revealed their connection, thus she had to fake her death, took her child, and went with Howland to the Neck, where she took a new name - Jyana. Could be that Howland Reed was escorting Lyanna, when she eloped with Rhaegar. That's when Howland and Ashara fell in love, on the way to Starfall. So during most of Rebellion, Howland was with Lyanna and Ashara at Starfall. And after they got news about Rhaegar's death, Howland went to Ned, he took a boat or a ship from Starfall, or first went to Oldtown and there took a ship. He was going to King's Landing, and made a stop at Storm's End, when he found out that Ned is there. He went to him, and informed him that Lyanna is at Starfall, and thus they sailed there together.

I don't think that Dawn is at Starfall, I think that Ashara/Jyana took it with her, and that later she will play for Jon a role of Arthurian Lady of the Lake. According to some versions of Arthurian legends, Arthur didn't draw Excalibur out of stone, instead it was given to him by water fairy, Nimue, the Lady of the Lake, one of Merlin's lovers. In Dany's case for her the Lady of the Lake, that will give her a magic sword, will be Shiera Seastar/Quaithe, and the sword is Dark Sister. I think that Shiera lured Bloodraven beyond The Wall, made him to go to the Children's cave, gave him a weirwood seed paste, then the tree grew from within of his body, binding him with its roots to that cave, and then Shiera took his sword. This story is similar to how Merlin died in Arthurian legends - Nimue lured him into a cave, and binded him to a magic tree, and left him there.

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24 minutes ago, Megorova said:

He went to Starfall not only to return Dawn

Shouldn't the soldiers gossiping to their wives at Winterfell say that Ned returned to Starfall? Yet, at no point, no-one ever mentions the double travel.

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4 hours ago, Ygrain said:

Shouldn't the soldiers gossiping to their wives at Winterfell say that Ned returned to Starfall? Yet, at no point, no-one ever mentions the double travel.

Most likely, the soldiers joined Ned on his way back to Winterfell, starting from Storm's End. I mean, that when Ned arrived to SE to lift its siege, he had northern troops with him. But when he departed to Dorne, he took with him only those of his companions, that later died at the Tower of Joy (excluding Howland, who was the only other survivor besides Ned).

1. After the Sack Ned went from KL to SE, with his troops, by land.

2. Howland Reed came to Ned, and told him that Lyanna is at Starfall.

3. The two of them and five other people + the ship's crew sailed to Starfall.

4. From Starfall they went to the Tower of Joy, to intercept 3KG, five of them died.

5. Ned returned to Starfall to deliver Dawn to Ashara, to inform her about Arthur's death, and to retrieve Lyanna's body (which was remaining at Starfall, while Ned went to the TofJ. While Ned was away, Ashara summoned Silent Sisters, who de-fleshed Lyanna's bones. So whoever saw her remnants afterwards, had no way to know that she was pregnant). And Howland returned to Starfall to fetch Ashara and their baby-girl. They faked Ashara's death, and went to the Neck.

6. Ned sailed to Storm's End, with Jon, Wylla, and Lyanna's bones.

7. At SE he gave order to his people to go back to The North, by land, while he continued sailing to KL. His people at SE found out (from the ships' crew, probably) that they were at Starfall, that Ned defeated Arthur Dayne (no mentioning of Howland Reed's presense there), that Ned delivered Dawn to Ashara, that Ashara commited suicide, and that on board of their ship there's a baby, Ned's bastard.

8. Ned's ship arrived to KL, where he reconnected with Robert. That's when Robert found out about Wylla and a child that was supposedly Ned's bastard.

9. Ned went to Winterfell with Wylla and the baby, and Lyanna's bones.

10. Ned's people arrived by land-route to Winterfell, with all those rumors about Ned's activity in Dorne*.

*Could be that to go from Storm's End to Starfall, Ned used one ship. But when he was going back from Starfall to Storm's End (the fight at the Tower of Joy happened inbetween), he took a different ship. So this second ship's crew had no idea about Ned's activity prior he hired them. All they knew, were rumors circulating near Starfall. Those people didn't saw/met Ashara, nor Howland (most likely from Starfall Howland, Ashara and Meera left by land). They (the second ship's crew) found out some information about what supposedly happened, already after everything ended. And they brought those rumors with them to Storm's End, where they told them to Northerners, that were waiting there for Ned's return. So those rumors only partially covered Ned's activity in Dorne.

Most likely, there was two ships. Ship One brought Howland from Dorne (probably from Oldtown. Howland went from Starfall by land or a small boat to Oldtown, and there hired a ship) to Storm's End. Ned and his five companions used this ship to go to Starfall. If from Starfall to the Tower of Joy, they also sailed, then for that they also could have used Ship One. After delivering Ned, Howland, Dawn, Wylla and Jon to Starfall, Ship One was dismissed by Ned, and returned to Oldtown, where Howland originally hired it. Then Ned hired Ship Two, and this ship brought Ned, Wylla, Jon, Lyanna's bones, and rumors about some of events from Starfall (including about Arthur's and Ashara's death) to Storm's End. Thus, the crew of Ship Two didn't knew that Howland Reed was a participant of whatever was happening in Dorne, and that Ashara Dayne is alive. 

11. Cat arrived to Winterfell with Robb. Jon and his wet-nurse were already settled there, and the castle was overflown with rumors about Ashara, and Ned was unaware of them, because his people didn't gossiped about him in his presense.

12. Cat asked him about Ashara, he asked her where did she heard it, and he made his people to stop gossiping.

13. General public was unaware that, when Ned defeated Arthur Dayne, Howland Reed was also there with him. Since then Howland was remaining at The Neck, with his wife, Jyana/Ashara. Ned's children never knew anything about Howland, and Howland never visited Winterfell (at least not after the Rebellion), because he had to keep in secret his wife's real identity (which was hard because of her violet eyes), and also that he was with Ned at the Tower of Joy. That way they kept Jon's real identity as a secret from everyone. Ned and Wylla were the only people at Winterfell, who knew Jon's real origin. And later Ned sent Wylla back to Starfall. Thus he became the sole keeper of Jon's secret.

"Shouldn't the soldiers gossiping to their wives at Winterfell say that Ned returned to Starfall?"

The source of information for those soldiers was the crew of Ship Two, and those people themselves had only partial information. They didn't returned to Starfall, because Ship Two went there only once (to fetch Ned from Starfall and to deliver him to Storm's End and later to KL and to Winterfell).

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@Megorova I can't respond to all of this now, but one assertion you make jumped out at me that others might not take issue with. You say,

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Ned was away, Ashara summoned Silent Sisters, who de-fleshed Lyanna's bones. So whoever saw her remnants afterwards, had no way to know that she was pregnant).

In a fictional world all things are possible, so Martin does not have to follow real world realities, but in our world this is simply not true. Pelvic bones show the evidence of pregnancy. My guess is that Martin knows this, as he has clearly stated he tried to show in his books the realities of pregnancy.

I will try to get back later tonight to contribute to the discussion about theories you put forward.

Edited by SFDanny
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11 hours ago, SFDanny said:
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So whoever saw her remnants afterwards, had no way to know that she was pregnant).

In a fictional world all things are possible, so Martin does not have to follow real world realities, but in our world this is simply not true. Pelvic bones show the evidence of pregnancy.

I know that, but I doubt that Robert knew about this specific of women's post-pregnancy bodies. Also I doubt that whoever looked at Lyanna's bones, when Ned delivered them from Dorne, were looking at them thoroughly or intently, with intention to examine them for signs/traces of something unusual.

Though, it would have been totally different matter, if Ned delivered Lyanna's body, instead of her bones. The fat belly doesn't just disappear instantly after birth of a baby. Also, in case with some women, when they are pregnant, their faces change, the face becomes kind of drowned in fat.

For example, main character of a TV-show Bones, Temperance Brennan/Emily Deschanel. During filming of that TV-show the actress was pregnant twice, in the show and in real life, in 2011 and 2015. In the beginning of season 7 the actress looks normal, but then they made a several months long hiatus, and later, when they returned to filming, her face is fat, because of her pregnancy. One other actress was also pregnant during the filming, Daisy Wick/Carla Gallo, in season 10, in 2014. Her face also became fat, when she was pregnant.

If, instead of bones, Ned would have delivered Lyanna's body, then people would/could have noticed her belly, and those who knew her, would have noticed her changed/fat face. Also, could be that Lyanna was unable to deliver the baby on her own, so maester Marwyn had to perform a Cesarean section on her. So, if they didn't de-fleshed her body, people would have noticed that she was pregnant and had a baby.

But, if instead they delivered only bones, I doubt that people looked at them, and made any sort of assumptions about Lyanna's state prior her death.

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1 hour ago, Megorova said:

I know that, but I doubt that Robert knew about this specific of women's post-pregnancy bodies.

I'm glad you know this fact, but your previous post stated otherwise. The question isn't whether Robert knew enough to understand what the bones would tell him, but rather would any maester in Westeros with medical training (the right silver link in his chain) see what the signs on Lyanna's bones meant. If so, Ned has a powerful reason to keep Lyanna's bones in his control only, and to keep them from any examination.

Which is an argument for him to keep the Silent Sisters out of the process. Being silent does not preclude communication of information. If someone like Marwyn was at the Tower with Ned when she died - the latter part which we know to be fact - then it would make sense for Marwyn, or his equivalent,  to take the unenviable task upon himself.

Edited by SFDanny
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1 hour ago, SFDanny said:

Which is an argument for him to keep the Silent Sisters out of the process. Being silent does not preclude communication of information. If someone like Marwyn was at the Tower with Ned when she died - the latter part which we know to be fact - then it would make sense for Marwyn, or his equivalent,  to take the unenviable task upon himself.

The thing is, we don't know how exactly did people/characters in ASOIAF de-flesh dead bodies. I know that in real world for this purpose are used special bugs, that eat all the flesh off the bones. I have read in a book that museums (not art museums, but those with mummies, and dead stuffed animals, like mammoths or bears) often use this bugs.

So the people from Starfall could have just borrowed from Silent Sisters a box of bugs, and used them to de-flesh Lyanna's body, and none of those SS even saw her, or in what state her body was.

And afterwards, probably, the bones were transported and kept in a box (some pretty box, made of wood or stone, with decorations and engravings on it). So, even though Ned brought Lyanna's remnants to King's Landing, it doesn't mean that Robert actually saw them. He was shown the box, and was told that this is Lyanna's bones, and it's unlikely that he opened the box, to actually look at those bones.

In some churches there are boxes like that, with bones of saints or kings. And those boxes are closed. Nobody opens them to look inside to check what is there.

It doesn't make sense for Ned to transport Lyanna's body to KL. It would have taken 14+ days even by a ship, so by the time of arrival, her body would have been badly rotten. Tywin's body was only several days dead, and it was in a really bad state. Can you imagine the state of Lyanna's body weeks after her death? It doesn't make sense to transport it like that. Ned's own body also was first de-fleshed, and only then his remnants, or rather his bones, were sent wherever they were sent.

So Robert didn't saw Lyanna's body, and also could be that he didn't actually opened the box to look at her bones. But even if he did looked, it's unlikely that he was such an expert in anthropology and biology (or whatever), that he was able to figure out, based on the state of her pelvic bones, that she was pregnant prior her death.

Also, if people from Starfall summoned Silent Sisters, they could have came to fetch them from Oldtown, didn't informed them where they will take them, didn't told them who died, just brought them to a room with Lyanna's body, and made them to prepare it for transportation. If on the way to Starfall they were kept locked in a cabin without a window (something like Tyrion on his way to Pentos), and when they were brought off the ship and to Starfall, their escorts covered their eyes with a blindfold, then they had no idea where were they, and for whom did they performed that procedure. It's not like Lyanna was some sort of celebrity/instantly recognizable. Furthermore, even if those Silent Sisters decided to break their oath of silence, and wanted to tell to someone what they saw, they would have been unable to tell anything revealing, because they themselves saw nearly nothing, not enough to identify where they were taken, or who was that dead girl.

And there was no reason for anyone, not even for some maester at King's Landing, to inspect Lyanna's bones. Thus no one, outside of wherever Lyanna gave birth to Jon, were able to find out afterwards, that she was pregnant.

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On 8/23/2020 at 9:57 AM, SFDanny said:

Why would that possibility indicate Ned is in Starfall when he is found holding Lyanna's body? We have direct evidence that is not the case. It is not as if there can be no Silent Sisters in the area of the Tower, or anywhere from there to Starfall. Given that Ned is holding his recently deceased sister's body, I highly doubt Howland or anyone else has already gone for the Silent Sisters to wisk away her corpse. Given we know Lyanna died at the Tower, then your supposition is based on Ned carrying Lyanna's body on a very long journey from the Tower of Joy to Starfall. It is much more likely the "they" the finds Ned is not inclusive of Silent Sisters, but of Howland and whoever else was at the Tower where Lyanna died. The preparation of the bones for burial is not something that requires Silent Sisters to accomplish, but if they were involved in the task, then it is much more likely someone of the "they" goes to get them and brings them to the Tower after "they" find Ned holding the dead Lyanna.

Just re-reading your comment and yes I am saying that Lyanna didn't die at ToJ because there wouldn't have any Silent Sisters at ToJ.  So if Ned did charge them with preparing her body for transportation back to Winterfell; they would have been at a place where the sisters could be summoned or in a population where they reside.  This would answer Lady Dustin's question about why Ned returned with Lyanna's remains, but not her husband's remains - there were no silent sisters at the ToJ.  But there were likely silent sisters waiting on Lyanna.  We know that she told Ned she wanted to be returned to Winterfell.  And we have other instances where Ned did just that for others: 

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A Game of Thrones - Eddard X

"Jory and the others …""I gave them over to the silent sisters, to be sent north to Winterfell. Jory would want to lie beside his grandfather."    

 

 https://asearchoficeandfire.com/?q=silent+sisters&scope[]=agot

I'm not sure what the direct evidence could be.  I don't have the app but I make the same assumptions about the app as I do for the World Book, that some of the information is hearsay.   This isn't an argument against RLJ.  This is only about the narrative that Lyanna died at the ToJ.  I think it's as likely that she wasn't there and that her body was turned over to the silent sisters in another place.    

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While I think we can take at face value that Lyanna did die at the ToJ, I agree that the logistics are off the wall. Is there a sept near the ToJ where Ned can send for silent sisters. Howland is with him. Maybe the crannogmen have a different way to handle the dead. But yeah, the logistics for this are all over the place, including Ned taking his sister's body all the way down to Starfall. I guess the Daynes were fine with Arthur's body not being returned to the family as long as they got Dawn back. (I know it's a cynical view)

In any case, my personal gripe is with the length of time Lyanna spent at the ToJ. I don't think she and Rhaegar were there the whole time. I don't think he left her there either. The ToJ isn't just in the middle of nowhere, there's a whole issue with food supplies and the scarcity of water. 

I'm not sure it's a coincidence that Rhaegar's biggest fan happens to have a castle with a built-in escape route.

Edited by Alexis-something-Rose
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1 hour ago, LynnS said:

 We know that she told Ned she wanted to be returned to Winterfell.  And we have other instances where Ned did just that for others: 

 https://asearchoficeandfire.com/?q=silent+sisters&scope[]=agot

Jory died in KL, with full service available. The way his body was handled says nothing about Lyanna's.

In Barristan's PoV, we have three possible ways to reduce a corpse into a portable form: defleshing by boiling (normally done by the Silent Sisters), defleshing by flesh-eating instects, and cremation. Cremation is the least time-consuming process and does not require special skills, equipment or knowledge.

 

26 minutes ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

While I think we can take at face value that Lyanna did die at the ToJ, I agree that the logistics are off the wall. Is there a sept near the ToJ where Ned can send for silent sisters. Howland is with him. Maybe the crannogmen have a different way to handle the dead. But yeah, the logistics for this are all over the place, including Ned taking his sister's body all the way down to Starfall. I guess the Daynes were fine with Arthur's body not being returned to the family as long as they got Dawn back. (I know it's a cynical view)

See above - cremation does not poise any issues in logistics.

26 minutes ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

 The ToJ isn't just in the middle of nowhere, there's a whole issue with food supplies and the scarcity of water. 

Food supplies can be arranged, if you have a reliable supplier, and there must be a water source, or else the place couldn't have functioned as a watchtower.

As for R+L staying there the whole time... man, I don't know. I think that at least initially after their disappearance, they may have been staying elsewhere, but that elsewhere must have been a place where no-one would look for them and people wouldn't talk, i.e. minimum or none other population. Which rules out Starfall - too many eyes, ears and mouths, and as we know, someone always tells.

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