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R + L = J v.167


Ygrain
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2 hours ago, LynnS said:

Yes, I agree.  I'm not stuck on Starfall.  My main point is that I think there is some evidence that Lyanna didn't die at the ToJ. 

What you have argued does not consist of evidence.

You have not shown the necessity of the Silent Sisters being present at her death. In fact the un-necessary-ness of it has been shown by others. Therefore the idea that the lack of Silent Sisters at (or in the vicinity of) the ToJ constitutes 'evidence' that Lyanna did not die at the ToJ is false.

3 hours ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

The castle I'm thinking of is Griffin's Roost, and how the group might have stayed during the latter part of the war. Lyanna and the KG can leave by that hidden cove beneath the crag after the news of Rhaegar's death on the Trident arrives. They can ask Paxter Redwyne for a ship to sail them down to Dorne. The ship drops them off near the Wyl and they can continue on their way to the Prince's Pass, and then down to Starfall, but they can't move on from the ToJ because Lyanna has her baby, then everything goes downhill from there. 

Griffin's Roost passed to Ser Ronald Connington, Jon's cousin-Castellan when Aerys exiled Jon. Why would Ronald, who was not a courtier (being Jon's Castellan showed he stayed at home rather than spent time at court), support Lyanna hiding there when he owed his land and title directly to Aerys?

2 hours ago, LynnS said:

I'm quoting it because she says specifically that Ned brought back Lyanna's bones.  So we know how her body was treated and we know that this is something the silent sisters do to prepare a corpse.  So we know he didn't return with her ashes. 

Aside from the fact that Lady Barbra can't actually know that, just assume it, ashes can include bones. 
And flesh can be stripped by non-Silent Sisters. It is a coincidence, I wonder, that Jon dreams of Ygritte's bones being de-fleshed in hot water? (Barristan's thoughts tell us that the Silent Sisters use beetles).

It is simply not a fact that the Silent Sisters must have been involved at ToJ. 

Ned could, for example, have taken Lyanna's body to Kingsgrave or Nightsong and had the Silent Sisters there do their work and send her bones north. That would offer one explanation of why the same was not done for all his companions - not that I think any explanation is necessary - see below.

2 hours ago, LynnS said:

If there were silent sisters at the ToJ, he would have taken care of all the bodies and have them returned to their relatives.  This is the questiion that Lady Dustin asks.  Why didn't he bring back her husbands bones.  The answer is that there was no alternative but to bury them.     

There are other answers.

1 hour ago, Buried Treasure said:

The destruction of the tower and construction of the cairns is a greater feat of labour than the funerary preparation of a single body.

It is, but its also not that big a deal. Not with fire, rope, close to a dozen horses, vs a smallish watchtower.

1 hour ago, Buried Treasure said:

Ned went into Dorne with an army, and although he rode to the tower with only six others, for all we know he left the bulk of that army over the brow of the next hill.

We know that he did not take an army to Dorne.

1 hour ago, LynnS said:

But he does in fact do this for others who have died and certainly Lady Dustin wanted her husband's remains.  Why wouldn't he do the same for the men of the north who came with him? 

 https://asearchoficeandfire.com/?q=silent+sisters&scope[]=agot 

We don't actually see it for men who died in honorable battle in any isolated area. We only see it done where its easy. 
Ned didn't think it a problem, or he wouldn't have 'assured' Lady Barbra that he husband died honourably and was laid to rest in Dorne.
Jaime made polite mouthings to Lady Genna, but basically dismissed it in his head, thinking he'd find any old bones to send just to keep her happy.

46 minutes ago, LynnS said:

I don't think it's a matter of Lady Dustin expressing her wishes.  It's a question of Ned doing the right thing given the circumstances.  If he could have, he would have sent the remains back.  He would have known that his six good men, his friends and companions would want to be returned home for burial. 

Thats an opinion. I don't think its well-founded in the text. If it was easy, he might have, sure, But the fact that he 'assured' Lady Dustin about her husband being laid to rest shows quite clearly that he didn't think he hadn't done right by his friends. Once we removed teh double negative, that means he thinks he did do right by his friends.

47 minutes ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:
Maybe they found out Lyanna was pregnant while they were there, so he named it the ToJ :dunno:

I think thats the best reasoning for the name I've heard.

25 minutes ago, alienarea said:

GRRM wrote "seven fought and two rode away" (paraphrased) and "they found him ..." (paraphrased).

Do not paraphrase falsely. They had been seven against three, yet only two had lived to ride away;

GRRM's sentence structure (specifically the 'yet' tying the second clause directly to the first) explicitly matches the two to the seven-against-three. Any noncombatants are not included in the two. You are certainly too literarily competent to not understand this fact, so why omit this from the paraphrase? 

25 minutes ago, alienarea said:

GRRM did not write that Ned found Lyanna in the ToJ.

He did write that Ned's dream about the ToJ was explicitly the dream about Lyanna in her bed of blood.

 

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13 hours ago, alienarea said:

The fight at the ToJ and Lyanna's death merge seamlessly in Ned's fever dream.

That does not mean she died at the ToJ.

GRRM wrote "seven fought and two rode away" (paraphrased) and "they found him ..." (paraphrased).

Two rode away contradicts they as they is more than one but Ned and Howland rode away. 

GRRM did not write that Ned found Lyanna in the ToJ.

Let's consider this: after the ToJ fight Ned was down to Howland and himself, maybe knowing where Lyanna was, but not her condition. He buries his comrades and the KG where they fell. Maybe not knowing what would happen to him when riding into Starfall? There he finds a dying Lyanna, and turns her body over to the silent sisters. Kind of makes sense.

I think a simpler explanation works better for me.  As for the App, I don't have it and I don't remember much about it's launch. I don't think it was just intended just for book readers, but for fans of the show as well, who likely haven't read the books.  So since Lyanna dying at the ToJ is included in the App; seems to me this suits the show's purpose.  The show runners went with a narrative that is a fan favorite so you can't really say otherwise in the App. Did George give permission to spoil one of the big mysteries?  No.

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14 hours ago, SFDanny said:

I will repeat, the app tells us unequivocally that Lyanna died at the Tower of Joy.

So what? -> In the appendix of AGOT it is written that Joffrey, Tommen and Myrcella are Robert Baratheon's children.

Thus, even though it is written in the app, that Lyanna died at the Tower of Joy, she could have died elsewhere.

The books are a canon, while the app is slightly less than a canon. But even in the books is written false information. Such as - Jon is a bastard of Ned Stark, Rhaego is dead, The Three-Eyed Crow is Brynden Rivers, etc.

14 hours ago, SFDanny said:

This is supported by the shout of Lyanna to her brother in Ned's dream.

Exactly, it happened in his dream. Doesn't mean that in reality Lyanna also was at the Tower of Joy when Ned fought with those 3 KG.

14 hours ago, SFDanny said:

If we start from the evidence the books and our author give us and then work within those parameters we get a much more likely understanding of the story than if we make stuff up outside those parameters.

Wrong.

Making stuff up outside those parameters is called - thinking out of the box, while using only elements that are directly written in the books, without trying to read what was written "between the lines" or "on the margins", won't help you to figure out what the bigger picture looks like.

In a context of this bigger picture (because there is a bigger picture), and the fact that Arthur Dayne was with Rhaegar, when Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna, and the fact that Lyanna spent nearly a year at some uncknown location somewhere in Dorne, is an evidence that Lyanna didn't spent all that time at the Tower of Joy, that's not where Rhaegar brought her. Also it's highly unlikely that Rhaegar left Lyanna elsewhere, but closer to the end of Rebellion she departed from that place, even though she was heavily pregnant, and departed elsewhere, and as result of her doubtful journey ended up at the Tower of Joy, where she supposedly died, possibly after giving birth to Jon.

But of course, if to figure out a bigger picture, we will use as a basis not common sense and logic, but only Ned's fevered dream, and what is written in the app, then yes - it seems that Lyanna died at the Tower of Joy. (<- Wrong! ^_^)

14 hours ago, SFDanny said:

If you want to show the evidence is wrong, then please show what counter evidence you have to support that claim.

There isn't any direct evidence where exactly Rhaegar took Lyanna when he supposedly kidnapped her. GRRM is too smart to leave in the books information/clues/hints like that.

14 hours ago, SFDanny said:

Robert was extremely possessive of Lyanna in life

Though Ned could have said to him that Lyanna wanted to be returned to Winterfell, and to be burried in Stark crypts alongside her father and brother, so that's what he's going to do. And Robert agreed to it, because it was Lyanna's last wish.

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1 hour ago, Megorova said:

But of course, if to figure out a bigger picture, we will use as a basis not common sense and logic, but only Ned's fevered dream, and what is written in the app, then yes - it seems that Lyanna died at the Tower of Joy. (<- Wrong! ^_^)

Also, you can't say that someone is inventing stuff out of thin air; if your own argument is supported in the same way.  It's a matter of how probable and likely something is based on the few clues we are given.  Lyanna's bones were boiled and that is how the Silent Sisters prepare bodies.  Why deny it?   The reader should be asking the same question as Lady Dustin.  If Ned could bring home his sister's bones, why didn't he bring back her husband?  Because there were no camp followers, no army around the corner, no vat, no water and no wood.  She had to have died somewhere else.   Starfall seems the closest place, if she did indeed leave the ToJ, as giving birth became imminent.  That seems far more logical to me than forcing a narrative that she died at the ToJ based on Ned's dream.  Worse it gets in the way of understanding what the dream is really about. 

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3 hours ago, LynnS said:

As for the App, I don't have it and I don't remember much about it's launch. I don't think it was just intended just for book readers, but for fans of the show as well, who likely haven't read the books.  So since Lyanna dying at the ToJ is included in the App; seems to me this suits the show's purpose.  The show runners went with a narrative that is a fan favorite so you can't really say otherwise in the App. Did George give permission to spoil one of the big mysteries?  No.

As Ran once revealed, the location of Lyanna's death in the app is based on a Stark family tree by George that included dates of birth and death and stuff.

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7 minutes ago, The Wondering Wolf said:

As Ran once revealed, the location of Lyanna's death in the app is based on a Stark family tree by George that included dates of birth and death and stuff.

I haven't seen that, so I can't comment about it. 

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1 minute ago, LynnS said:

The family tree.  Do you have a link for it?

Ran and Linda participated in the publishing of the app. The information were based on the books and answers by GRRM himself. This particular piece of Lianna's place of death was based on said family tree GRRM had showed them. It was a tree GRRM used to keep track of his stuff, so it has not been published.

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3 hours ago, LynnS said:

As for the App, I don't have it and I don't remember much about it's launch. I don't think it was just intended just for book readers, but for fans of the show as well, who likely haven't read the books.  So since Lyanna dying at the ToJ is included in the App; seems to me this suits the show's purpose.  The show runners went with a narrative that is a fan favorite so you can't really say otherwise in the App.

I think the app was published in 2014. 

The show did not use the fan-favorite narrative you're talking about for another three years -- 2017.

So I doubt the idea was just to mirror the show. 

The situation with the app is this: It was published as a companion to the World book.  That's why the app has the same name (World of Ice and Fire).

Now, Martin did a promotional interview in fall 2014 about the World book.  In this interview, he went out of his way to call attention to the unreliable and in some cases incorrect nature of the World book's new information, that wasn't already in the canon. 

He compared it to information provided by questionable historians such as Suetonius and encouraged readers to take it all with a large grain of salt.   There is no way, Martin said, to know if that new information is true or false.

So whatever new information Martin supplied for the companion app is almost certainly the same sort of thing.  It may be true... or it may be false... but readers would be foolish to assume that it must always be true.  

 

3 hours ago, LynnS said:

Did George give permission to spoil one of the big mysteries?  No.

I agree Martin would not be likely to choose something like an app to spoil any mysteries not revealed in his canon, especially given his public position on the World book's accuracy.

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3 hours ago, Megorova said:

Wrong.

Making stuff up outside those parameters is called - thinking out of the box, while using only elements that are directly written in the books, without trying to read what was written "between the lines" or "on the margins", won't help you to figure out what the bigger picture looks like.

Actually it is just what you called it - "Making stuff up." It's you substituting your imagination for the author's work. I congratulate you on having a vivid imagination, but your imagination isn't evidence to support any theory about what George R. R. Martin writes.

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2 hours ago, LynnS said:

Because there were no camp followers, no army around the corner, no vat, no water and no wood.  

Textual proof, please, that there was no water and no wood available at ToJ.

1 hour ago, LynnS said:

I haven't seen that, so I can't comment about it. 

Ran stated seeing the family tree with his very eyes, in one of the older iterations of this thread, so you can try and search the site.

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4 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

Textual proof, please, that there was no water and no wood available at ToJ.

You first.  Where is the textual evidence that Lyanna was ever at the ToJ.  Until I can see what Ran saw, I will take it with a grain of salt.

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19 hours ago, alienarea said:

The fight at the ToJ and Lyanna's death merge seamlessly in Ned's fever dream.

That does not mean she died at the ToJ.

Still the same flawed argument? It was an OLD dream, about the tower, the KG and the dying Lyanna. He repeatedly dreams about these elements together because they belong together, it is not a random one-time merger. Lyanna's death is connected with the tower and the fight with the KG. You may practice as much mental gymnastics as you want for all kinds of convoluted scenarios how else she might be connected but the simple and logical answer is that this is where she died.

Note also that we don't get to see the dying Lyanna in this particular iteration of the dream, yet when he dreams it is her voice calling him, he responds "I promise", just like he did moments before she died. We also know that Ned was deeply traumatized by Lyanna death, to the point of becoming catatonic for while, and he is haunted by dreams featuring it. It is also logical that the recurring location featured in the recurring dreams about Lyanna's death is the location where she died.

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2 minutes ago, LynnS said:

You first.  Where is the textual evidence that Lyanna was ever at the ToJ.  Until I can see what Ran saw, I will take it with a grain of salt.

See the response to alienarea, if you need to play coy. And now show me where it's stated that the Prince's Pass is a desert.

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5 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

See the response to alienarea, if you need to play coy. And now show me where it's stated that the Prince's Pass is a desert.

The only person who is being coy here is yourself.  You dissemble, obfuscate and make up a lot of stuff, just to keep this idea afloat.  Cast the beam out of your own eye, before before accusing me.

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25 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

Still the same flawed argument? It was an OLD dream, about the tower, the KG and the dying Lyanna. He repeatedly dreams about these elements together because they belong together, it is not a random one-time merger. Lyanna's death is connected with the tower and the fight with the KG. You may practice as much mental gymnastics as you want for all kinds of convoluted scenarios how else she might be connected but the simple and logical answer is that this is where she died.

Note also that we don't get to see the dying Lyanna in this particular iteration of the dream, yet when he dreams it is her voice calling him, he responds "I promise", just like he did moments before she died. We also know that Ned was deeply traumatized by Lyanna death, to the point of becoming catatonic for while, and he is haunted by dreams featuring it. It is also logical that the recurring location featured in the recurring dreams about Lyanna's death is the location where she died.

Just because a dream is old it is still a dream.

I dream a lot of things that are very real in my dream, but never happened in the reality (?) I wake up in.

The events are connected in Ned's dream, it seems to be a safe conclusion that Lyanna died after the fight at the ToJ. An hour or a day or a week ...? We do not know.

There needs to be an explanation why Ned gave Lyanna's bones to the silent sisters, but not the bones of his friends. Lyanna dying (a little) later in another location might be a good explanation.

 

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3 hours ago, The Wondering Wolf said:

As Ran once revealed, the location of Lyanna's death in the app is based on a Stark family tree by George that included dates of birth and death and stuff.

 

2 hours ago, LynnS said:

The family tree.  Do you have a link for it?

But the family tree Ran cites about Lyanna at the tower of joy is like all the other family trees in the novels and appendices, right? It still shows Jon as Ned's son, right?

So, it shows what Ned told people about Lyanna's death, like what he told them about Jon.

So, maybe it's telling actual reality. Or maybe it's just saying what Ned told people--and, like other things Ned has told on this subject, it's a lie.

So--we really need the novels to confirm.

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I think I found where Ran talked about the Stark family tree showing that Lyanna died at the TOJ.  See the attached link.  I hope I did it right, i'm crappy at linking. it's entry 985.

 

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/34958-the-asoiaf-wiki-thread/?p=7061843

Edited by The Hidden Dragon
error correction
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@LynnS @SFDanny

As @HugorHell wrote in the post above - the app is writen not by GRRM, same as the World Book <- the author of both, is a maester/maesters. <- whoever that author is, he wasn't there, wherever Lyanna died.

What is written there, same as what is written in appendices of all ASOIAF's books, is an information known by general public/characters. It's what they think to be true. Which doesn't mean that they are always correct with that knowledge. Cersei's children is an evidence of that. In one book they are written in appendix as Robert's children, in later books, when characters found out, that those three could be Jaime's bastards, the information written in appendix about their parentage also changed.

It's likely that characters of ASOIAF believe that Lyanna Stark died at the Tower of Joy. They were made to believe, possibly by Ned, that that's where Lyanna had spent entire length of Rebellion, and that's where she died. Ned is the only POV-character, who was with Lyanna at the time of her death. So, he's the only one who knows for sure how, when, where, and from what causes did Lyanna died. And there was a reason for Ned to lie to everyone else about the place of Lyanna's death.

If actually she died at Starfall, and Robert, or anyone else, would have found out about this, about involvement of House Dayne into Lyanna's kidnapping, not only Arthur's participation in it, but the continuing participation of other Daynes, that Lyanna was at Starfall all that time, then it would have caused grave problems for all people there, masters and servants alike. Robert was partially Targaryen, thus he could have inherited their brand of madness. What Robert would have done with people that, in his opinion, were guilty in keeping Lyanna in captivity? -> Possibly something similar to what Mad King Aerys did to people at Duskendale.

Ned didn't wanted for something like that to happen, he had enough after what Lannisters did to Elia and Rhaegar's children. Thus, there was a serious motivation for Ned to lie about the place of Lyanna's death. It was to protect people at Starfall. And possibly also to hide from everyone the fact that Jon was born at Starfall. After the fight at the TofJ, Ned destroyed that tower, so no one could have asked someone from there about what happened, because there was no "there" anymore. To hide the truth, in case if someone went and asked questions at Starfall, would have been much harder, if not completely impossible. Though, because Starfall was never mentioned anywhere in the same context as Lyanna, no one connected her location and death to that castle, nor to House Dayne.

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