R + L = J v.167

[Frey family reunion]

18 minutes ago, lehutin said:

Why did the loyalist Kingsguard separate Jon from his mother?

 

Upon learning that Lyanna was at Starfall, why would Ned proceed directly to the Tower of Joy instead of first speaking with his sister, whom he's spent close to a year looking for?

 

Did Lyanna give birth to Jon and die at Starfall? Maybe, but it just seems like an unnecessary complication. Either there's double travel, or Ned bizarrely doesn't speak to his sister before recovering her child.

See my post above.  Jon was meant to be a sacrifice to fulfill the prince that was promised prophecy.  The Kingsguards were tasked to see the events through.  This was the oath they swore.  The reason why the tower of joy had to be a fight to the death.

Ned's journey to the tower of joy was to keep this from happening, which is why speed was of the essence.  It is also why he only took a small group of people that he could absolutely trust, all people who had loyal ties to either Ned, Brandon, and/or Lyanna.

Presumably Lyanna gave birth to Jon at Starfall.  If Rhaegar's main motivation was to see that Lyanna's pregnancy was successful, he had to take her to a place that could care for her and a place that was not easily accessible by Robert or Ned.  And a place with people that he could trust.  

The tower of joy location was picked because of its geographic location.  A halfway point between Dorne and the Reach a place accessible for parties in both locations.  If so, then I believe that other parties were meant to join with the kingsguards.  Ned beat them to the location.  

Ned doesn't come into contact with his sister until after the events at the tower of joy.  Someone learned of Lyanna's location and the events planned for the tower of joy.  This information was relayed to Ned.  

Edited August 28, 2020 by Frey family reunion

[lehutin]

34 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

See my post above.  Jon was meant to be a sacrifice to fulfill the prince that was promised prophecy.  The Kingsguards were tasked to see the events through.  This was the oath they swore.  The reason why the tower of joy had to be a fight to the death.

Ned's journey to the tower of joy was to keep this from happening, which is why speed was of the essence.  It is also why he only took a small group of people that he could absolutely trust, all people who had loyal ties to either Ned, Brandon, and/or Lyanna.

Presumably Lyanna gave birth to Jon at Starfall.  If Rhaegar's main motivation was to see that Lyanna's pregnancy was successful, he had to take her to a place that could care for her and a place that was not easily accessible by Robert or Ned.  And a place with people that he could trust.  

The tower of joy location was picked because of its geographic location.  A halfway point between Dorne and the Reach a place accessible for parties in both locations.  If so, then I believe that other parties were meant to join with the kingsguards.  Ned beat them to the location.  

Ned doesn't come into contact with his sister until after the events at the tower of joy.  Someone learned of Lyanna's location and the events planned for the tower of joy.  This information was relayed to Ned.  

If this is the case, it seems strange that in Ned's fever (but also old) dream, he spoke in such a roundabout way:

1. "I looked for you on the Trident."

2. "When King’s Landing fell,..."

3. "I came down on Storm's End to lift the siege,..."

4. "Ser Willem Darry is fled to Dragonstone,..."

instead of just getting straight to the point:

Quote

WHERE IS THE CHILD?!

 

[Frey family reunion]

3 minutes ago, lehutin said:

If this is the case, it seems strange that in Ned's fever (but also old) dream, he spoke in such a roundabout way:

1. "I looked for you on the Trident."

2. "When King’s Landing fell,..."

3. "I came down on Storm's End to lift the siege,..."

4. "Ser Willem Darry is fled to Dragonstone,..."

instead of just getting straight to the point:

 

You can make the same argument if Ned was coming to rescue Lyanna, no?  

ETA: but to more specifically adress your point, I don't think there was any great mystery of where the child was.  Presumably the child was in the tower of joy.  It was also tacitly agreed by the nature of the conversation that the Kingsguards were not going to hand over the child without a fight to the death.  Because they swore an oath.

I think the conversation with the Kingsguard may (and I must stress only may) suggest that Ned may have been specifically looking for these Kingsguards before the Trident.

Edited August 28, 2020 by Frey family reunion

[lehutin]

5 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

You can make the same argument if Ned was coming to rescue Lyanna, no?  

Not really. If Ned is coming to rescue Lyanna and has no idea that she's given birth to a child OR that there's some imminent plot to sacrifice her child, then while he's obviously anxious to rescue his sister, it makes sense for him to try to handle the situation as calmly as possible:

1. Rhaegar is dead. Surrender to me peacefully.
2. Aerys II is dead. Surrender to me peacefully.
3. The Houses Tyrell and Redwyne have abandoned you. Surrender to me peacefully.
4. If you won't surrender to me, then shouldn't you be with Viserys right now?

But if Ned is aware that the newborn child of his beloved sister is about to be sacrificed, why would he not just get straight to the point?

[Frey family reunion]

24 minutes ago, lehutin said:

Not really. If Ned is coming to rescue Lyanna and has no idea that she's given birth to a child OR that there's some imminent plot to sacrifice her child, then while he's obviously anxious to rescue his sister, it makes sense for him to try to handle the situation as calmly as possible:

1. Rhaegar is dead. Surrender to me peacefully.
2. Aerys II is dead. Surrender to me peacefully.
3. The Houses Tyrell and Redwyne have abandoned you. Surrender to me peacefully.
4. If you won't surrender to me, then shouldn't you be with Viserys right now?

But if Ned is aware that the newborn child of his beloved sister is about to be sacrificed, why would he not just get straight to the point?

Sorry, I don’t see the distinction.

You are also assuming a subtext that I’m not sure exists.  He never asks them to surrender.  Instead what he says, is that he has been looking for them.  First at the Trident, then at King’s Landing, and then at Storm’s End.  

[lehutin]

1 minute ago, Frey family reunion said:

Sorry, I don’t see the distinction.

Agree to disagree then.

 

1 minute ago, Frey family reunion said:

You are also assuming a subtext that I’m not sure exists.  He never asks them to surrender.  Instead what he says, is that he has been looking for them.  First at the Trident, then at King’s Landing, and then at Storm’s End.  

He never explicitly asks them to surrender. But what was the point of stating that he has been looking for them?

 

If they were at the Trident, they would've either died, surrendered, or (as their bravado claims) turned the tide and won the battle.

 

If they were at King's Landing, they would've either died, surrendered, or (as their bravado claims) still be serving King Aerys II.

 

If they were at Storm's End, they would've either surrendered or (as their bravado claims) still be serving the Kings of House Targaryen.

 

And if they weren't going to surrender, so be it, but shouldn't they "have sailed with" Ser Willem Darry to Dragonstone? This last part stands out because at that point, Ned is no longer on-the-surface saying that he has just been "looking for them."

[Frey family reunion]

5 minutes ago, lehutin said:

He never explicitly asks them to surrender. But what was the point of stating that he has been looking for them

Under your argument, he should have just come out and asked them to surrender.  Why beat around the bush.

If you feel the need to find a subtext, let me suggest one.  Ned is suggesting that their activities should be a violation of the Kingsguard duties.

They weren’t fighting at the Trident.  They weren’t protecting the King or the royal family.  They weren’t with the last of the royalist army, and they didn’t leave to Dragonstone to protect the heir.

Their retort is that they don’t flee, instead they swore an oath.  In other words, as Kingsguards we swore an oath and we have to see it to the end.

[Megorova]

3 hours ago, lehutin said:

I don't get this Lyanna-was-at-Starfall thing. From what I got out of page 23,

1. Lyanna gave birth to Jon at Starfall,
2. the loyalist Kingsguard took Jon to the Tower of Joy,
3. Ned met and consoled a dying Lyanna at Starfall,
4. Ned traveled to the Tower of Joy with his companions and killed the loyalist Kingsguard,
5. Ned went back to Starfall to return Dawn.

If so, it seems like an unnecessary complication to this:

1. Lyanna gave birth to Jon at the Tower of Joy,
2. Ned traveled to the Tower of Joy with his companions and killed the loyalist Kingsguard,
3. Ned met and consoled a dying Lyanna,
4. Ned went to Starfall to return Dawn.

There's an extra step and a double travel that has no purpose. Do some people just want the Daynes to be more involved in the story?

Ned had to go back to Starfall not only to return Dawn to Ashara, but also to take Lyanna's bones. When he came to Starfall first time, Lyanna was still alive, and she died while he was with her. Then he went to the Tower of Joy, and while he was there, Lyanna's body was de-fleshed and her bones were prepared for transportation. Thus that, what you called "extra step", was necessary. Ned couldn't have taken Lyanna's remnants with him, when he was leaving Starfall for the first time, because at that time her remnants were "untransportable", not de-fleshed yet. If whoever de-fleshed Lyanna's body was using special flesh-eating bugs, then this procedure takes several days to clean the bones from meat.

Furthermore, if my theory is correct, then, when Ned was at the Storm's End, and someone, most likely Howland, who came from Starfall, informed him where Lyanna is, at that time both Ned and Howland were unaware that by the time when they will arrive to Starfall, 3KG will be not there, that they departed from Starfall and will be going towards either King's Landing or Dragonstone. Thus Ned at first went to Starfall, because according to his source of information, Lyanna was there, and only after arriving to Starfall he found out that in addition he will have to go north thru the Prince's Pass, most likely to the Tower of Joy, because 3KG went in that direction, and because they were stopping there, when they were going south from Harrenhal to Starfall, so it's logical that they will stop there again, when they will be going back, north from Starfall.

2 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

If Lyanna was at Starfall, I think the sequence is:

1.  Ned learns from some source that Lyanna gave birth at Starfall, and that Lyanna's child was taken from her to the tower of joy. 

Wrong.

At the time, when Ned was informed about Lyanna's wereabouts, Jon wasn't born yet. Jon was born when Ned was on his way to Dorne.

2 hours ago, lehutin said:

Why did the loyalist Kingsguard separate Jon from his mother?

Because she was weakened by Jon's birth, and it was likely that she was dying, and KG knew this. So they decided to act now, even though their "King's" mother was still alive. Apparently they got pushed into action by Howland's departure from Starfall. Could be that either he informed them about his intentions to go and find Ned Stark, or he secretly escaped from Starfall, and they realised that he will bring Ned with him, and who knows what Ned will do. Maybe Ned will tell Robert about what Howland told him. Maybe Robert will come to Starfall together with Ned. And then maybe Robert will kill Jon. Thus they decided to take Jon away from Starfall, not to wait for whatever will happen, when Ned will get there. And because Lyanna was in a critical state, they didn't took her with them.

2 hours ago, lehutin said:

Upon learning that Lyanna was at Starfall, why would Ned proceed directly to the Tower of Joy instead of first speaking with his sister, whom he's spent close to a year looking for?

When Ned found out that Lyanna was at Starfall, that's where he went. The fact that by the time of his arrival Lyanna already gave birth to her child, and 3KG took her child from her, was unknown to Ned. He found out that he will have to go to the TofJ, only after he met Lyanna at Starfall, and she told him that 3KG took her child and left with him.

2 hours ago, lehutin said:

Did Lyanna give birth to Jon and die at Starfall? Maybe, but it just seems like an unnecessary complication.

It's not an unnecessary complication. It is a complication, though it's not unnecessary. It's important where Jon was born, important because of the prophecy. And if he was born at Starfall, it adds into the story a whole new layer of mythical symbolism.

New Azor Ahai was born under the bleeding stars, at Starfall. Lightbringer in Latin is Lucifer, which is also a Latin name of planet Venus, which is also called the Morning Star; the Sword of the Morning/carrier of Dawn. Thus, Dawn is Lightbringer. Which also means that the First Azor Ahai was the founder of House Dayne, and that Jon is a carrier of his genes, because Jon is a descendant of Dyanna Dayne, Egg's/Aegon V's mother.

Jon is going to be not only the next Sword of the Morning, he's also going to be the new Azor Ahai, like the first Dayne was. Jon was not only born at Starfall, he was also conceived there, and Lyanna was remaining there thru entire duration of her pregnancy. Starfall is the place of power. It's the place where crashed the meteorite from which Azor Ahai/first Dayne forged Lighbringer/Dawn. I think that when the meteorite collided with Planetos, part of the magic power that it carried, was absorbed by the ground at the crash site, and the part remained in the meteorite. And when Dawn was forged from the heart of that fallen star, it absorbed that star's power. Though, only part of the original power, while the other part remained in the ground at the crash cite. First Azor Ahai was unable to defeat all the Others in the world, and defeated only those of them that were at Essos, while those that were at Westeros, were pushed by the Children and the Last Hero/Bran the Builder/first Stark to the far North, where they were then isolated by The Wall. Azor Ahai knew (because he had a gift of dragondreams/fire visions) that to completely defeat the Others, it is necessary to gather all the power of that meteorite. Thus, after the First Long Night ended, he brought his family and his people with him from Essos (where he was serving at Asshai as R'hllor's Red Priest (in R'hllor's temple was forged Lightbringer)) to Dorne, and build Starfall. And for many generations the castle was absorbing the power from the ground. And when Lyanna and Rhaegar conceived their child at that castle, the power went into the baby. That way Jon and Dawn/Lightbringer combine in them the whole power of the meteorite (possibly a Bloodstone), and thus Jon will be able to accomplish the complete destruction of the Others.

Daenys the Dreamer, Targaryens and Daynes, and Hightowers, and Valyrians are all descendants of the First Azor Ahai. Could be that he was the son of the Amethyst Empress, and nephew of the Bloodstone Emperor.

It's exactly in GRRM's style to add all that symbolism and complications into his story.

Edited August 28, 2020 by Megorova

[lehutin]

1 hour ago, Frey family reunion said:

Under your argument, he should have just come out and asked them to surrender.  Why beat around the bush.

No, that wasn't my argument (that I already said I would agree to disagree with you, but whatever). My argument was that if you wanted to claim that the loyalist Kingsguard had absconded with Lyanna's newborn child and were about to sacrifice the child and "speed was of the essence," then Ned "For a start, I do not kill children" Stark wouldn't be wasting any time with roundabout speeches. Remember, you claimed that Ned being in a rush was why he didn't speak to his sister at Starfall first. If he's in that much of a hurry, why is he beating around the bush?

 

But if there is no knowledge on Ned's part about an imminent child sacrifice, then while Ned may still be anxious to rescue his sister, he's not so anxious that he can't even speak to a family member he's spent around a year looking for. He can try to more calmly negotiate for this family member's release. 

 

Like I said, if you don't see a distinction, fine. Agree to disagree. But that also means I don't agree with your claim that Ned would be equally straight-to-the-point under the "Lyanna is here, and that's all Ned knows" scenario.

 

1 hour ago, Frey family reunion said:

If you feel the need to find a subtext

If you think there's no subtext, or no need for one, and it's as simple as "Ned was looking for them," then why was Ned's final statement, "I thought you might have sailed with [Darry]"?

 

Ned has been looking for these guys all this time, and now that he finds them, he wants to know why they're not somewhere else?

 

1 hour ago, Frey family reunion said:

Ned is suggesting that their activities should be a violation of the Kingsguard duties.

 

I concur with that subtext in the context of Ned's final statement about Dragonstone. If they know that Rhaegar, Aerys II, and presumably also Aegon are all dead, then doesn't their Kingsguard duty demand that they be with Viserys?

 

Despite that, they all adamantly insist that staying there is what their Kingsguard duty demands. It is still a puzzle as to why they stood there.

 

Your Jon-was-to-be-sacrificed explanation implies that Gerold Hightower, Oswell Whent, and Arthur Dayne weren't the Kingsguard. They were the Prince'sfanboysclubguard. Instead of going to defend King Viserys III Targaryen, they decided to obey Prince Rhaegar's final, insane order to sacrifice a child.

 

If so, it really strains credulity that Ned "For a start, I do not kill children" would hold these three in the level of regard that he does. But I suppose we'll (hopefully) find out in TWOW.

[Frey family reunion]

1 hour ago, lehutin said:

If so, it really strains credulity that Ned "For a start, I do not kill children" would hold these three in the level of regard that he does. But I suppose we'll (hopefully) find out in TWOW.

That's probably your best argument against my theory.  But it also assumes that the Kingsguard believed this order would be insane.  That's a tough nut to figure.  Stannis isn't insane.  At least I think he isn't.  But he starts to come around to Melisandre's plan to sacrifice Edric.  And he does it because he believes it's for the benefit of the realm. 

Could Rhaegar have also come to the same conclusion?  And if Rhaegar came to that conclusion could his fellow Kingsguards members have followed suit.  We know that the Hightowers seem to be somewhat involved in the arcane.  So Gerold might be very familiar with the idea and perhaps even the necessity of a blood sacrifice.  Especially if the Prince that was Promised prophecy was intertwined with the need to bring back the dragons.

To stay with the Stannis analogy.  Davos is very devoted to Stannis.  And he continues to be very devoted to him even after Stannis agrees to have Edric sacrificed.  He somehow is able to seperate that decision with his devotion to Stannis. 

But I think your point is valid.  Even if the Kingsguards truly believed what they were doing was for the good of not only the kingdom, but for the survival of humanity, it seems unlikely that Eddard would have understood.  At least not understood to the point of believing Arthur was the finest knight he ever knew.

It's however also possible, that the Kingsguards were given a directive that they could not have honorably disobeyed.  So their best course of action was death before dishonor.  (Which makes me wonder if one of the Kingsguards was also the one who cued Eddard into the location of the TOJ.)

ETA: One final muse on Ned and the qualities he expects from a knight.  Ned truly must have thought that Aerys was a monster.  After what he did to his brother and father.  He also seems to equate fighting Aerys with preventing the murder of children.

Yet Ned likewise thinks that Jaime is loathsome because Jaime violated his oath and killed Aerys.  Now would Ned have thought more of Jaime if Jaime merely stepped aside and allowed Aerys to be killed?  Or does Ned believe that Jaime should have fulfilled his vows and died to protect Aerys despite how monstrous Aerys was?

Edited August 28, 2020 by Frey family reunion

[Ygrain]

On 8/26/2020 at 6:36 PM, LynnS said:

The only person who is being coy here is yourself.  You dissemble, obfuscate and make up a lot of stuff, just to keep this idea afloat.  Cast the beam out of your own eye, before before accusing me.

In other words, there is no piece of text you can offer stating or at least suggesting the lack of water and wood at ToJ.

On 8/26/2020 at 7:01 PM, alienarea said:

Just because a dream is old it is still a dream.

I dream a lot of things that are very real in my dream, but never happened in the reality (?) I wake up in.

And do you keep dreaming about the same elements connected to a real event all the time?

Lyanna in the bed of blood does not actually appear in the dream, yet Ned still lumps her in as a part of what the dream is about.

On 8/26/2020 at 7:01 PM, alienarea said:

The events are connected in Ned's dream, it seems to be a safe conclusion that Lyanna died after the fight at the ToJ. An hour or a day or a week ...? We do not know.

And this matters how? Even if she persisted a couple of days after the fight, which is certainly not impossible, it would still be the place where she died.

On 8/26/2020 at 7:01 PM, alienarea said:

There needs to be an explanation why Ned gave Lyanna's bones to the silent sisters, but not the bones of his friends. Lyanna dying (a little) later in another location might be a good explanation.

First, it is in no way a given that it was SS who treated Lyanna's bones.

Second, even if Lyanna died elsewhere, Ned could still arrange for the SS to be sent to ToJ - unless the time needed for fetching them was actually much longer than for arranging the burial that he did give them and the corpses would start to decompose, (which is really not something you want to do to your friends and esteemed enemies.)

Also, arranging for Lyanna's remains to be transported is not a matter of choice for Ned, he promised it, so he had to do whatever it took to fulfill that promise, even travelling with her body already rotting (unless there were some ingredients that could prevent or at least slow the decay, which definitely wouldn't be available in the amounts needed for all the other eight bodies). I still think cremation would be easiest, but again - collecting enough fuel for one pyre is way easier than for eight more.

On 8/28/2020 at 10:52 AM, SerTarod said:

What is the evidence (your emphasis) that Lyanna died at the Tower of Joy? My reading of the story is that Lyanna is placed there because Ned, in his fever dream, thinks/dreams of Lyanna after the battle against the Kings Guard.

A little correction: Lyanna is placed there because Ned states that he repeatedly dreams about her, the fight with the KG and the tower.

18 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

If Lyanna was at Starfall, I think the sequence is:

1.  Ned learns from some source that Lyanna gave birth at Starfall, and that Lyanna's child was taken from her to the tower of joy. 

2.  Ned travels with a guide who knows the location of the tower of joy.  I would guess Howland.

3.  Ned rescues Jon from the tower of joy and brings Jon back to Starfall to be reunited with Lyanna.  Returning Dawn was a cover story for the reason for his trip to Starfall.

4.  The death bed scene with Lyanna occurred after Ned arrived at Starfall with Jon.

No extra step, no double travel, and it explains why Ned would take such a dangerous trip through enemy territory with a baby in tow, as opposed to getting the babe to safety and then sending Dawn back to Starfall via ship.  

It also does away with the very ackward scenario of Ned travelling a great distance through the mountains carrying his dead sister.

Really the "return of Dawn" makes no sense.  It doesn't rise to a level of importance for Ned to travel through the Mountains with a baby and with a dead sister.  Dawn could have always been sent with a formal peace party at a later date.

The only part here I can agree with is that "return of Dawn" is totally a coverup.

The rest doesn't really make sense. Why take newborn Jon to ToJ, where you lack the resources and it is close to Robert's territory, from Starfall, where you can easily arrange the care and transport to safety? And if you take him from Lyanna, why would you inform her where you are going to hide?

If both Jon and Lyanna are at ToJ, you still need to get Jon away and you cannot return to KL or your forces exactly from there because you wouldn't convince anyone that he is your baby. You need to put time and place between Jon and ToJ, as well as yourself - if you have been gone for months, there are tons of possibilites where you might have picked him (personally, I'd ask Howland to take a ship and bring Jon North where I might pick him somewhere along the way, while I travel back to KL, with Lyanna's bones, to give Robert a shoulder to cry on. No baby, no suspicions). If Ned turns up at Starfall with Wylla and Jon, no-one has an idea that he had gone to find Lya or what he had been doing prior, so they have no reason to question if the baby is his.

If Ran's theory about Jon at Starfall is correct, then the scenario works even better - Ned goes to "return Dawn" and pick his natural son, and the Daynes cannot really refuse him. And since Wylla arrived well before him, no connection to the ToJ events there.

[Frey family reunion]

On 8/29/2020 at 6:00 AM, Ygrain said:

The rest doesn't really make sense. Why take newborn Jon to ToJ, where you lack the resources and it is close to Robert's territory, from Starfall, where you can easily arrange the care and transport to safety? And if you take him from Lyanna, why would you inform her where you are going to hide?

If indeed Rhaegar was trying to fulfill the prince that was promised prophecy and if the prophecy also encompassed the hatching of dragons, the lesson of Summerhall was that you don’t attempt this in an inhabited castle.  And if that ritual included one or more blood sacrifices, well let’s just say that some things aren’t done in polite company.

No I would think that this would have to be done in a remote location.  And if you are waiting on additional parties to to help perform the rituals, one or more from Dorne (cough Oberyn) and one or more from the Reach (cough Marwyn), then a location within the Prince’s Pass also makes sense.

As for your point about it being close to Robert’s territory and lacking resources, that’s an interesting take for someone who is a proponent of Lyanna being secreted there for a significant period of time.  

Suffice it to say, I don’t think there was an intention for the parties to stay any length of time.  You wouldn’t need any significant resources.  Once everything was in order, then all the parties from both Dorne and the Reach would meet at the toj.

ETA:  Sorry I meant to respond to one more point.  I’m not assuming that Ned would have learned of the toj from Lyanna.  I mused above that perhaps the knowledge could have come from one of the Kingsguards if any felt conflicted from carrying through these orders from either Rhaegar or perhaps Aerys.  But I think it’s more probable that Ned would have learned it from one of the peripheral principals to this plan.  Perhaps one of Oswell’s siblings or more likely Ashara Dayne.

 

On 8/29/2020 at 6:00 AM, Ygrain said:

If Ran's theory about Jon at Starfall is correct, then the scenario works even better - Ned goes to "return Dawn" and pick his natural son, and the Daynes cannot really refuse him. And since Wylla arrived well before him, no connection to the ToJ events there.

I guess I’m not familiar with Ran’s theory to comment.  

But as for the theory that Ned travelled to Starfall to put people off the scent.  No, I can’t see that.  It’s far too risky and arduous for such a small payoff, when there would be so many other options.  It also wouldn’t explain why Ned shuts down all talk of Jon being Ashara’s son.  You would think that Ned would encourage such talk if his motivation was to put people off the scent.

Ned would only have made the trip for a very important purpose.  And reuniting a mother with her son, and Ned reuniting with his sister would certainly serve.

Edited August 30, 2020 by Frey family reunion

[HugorHell]

On 8/26/2020 at 12:45 PM, Sly Wren said:

Yup! So far, the appendices and family trees GRRM writes and publishes reflect the "official" record, not always conducive to actual reality.

"Official" also has a fairly specific meaning to Martin that we can figure out.

The reader knows, and has known since AGOT, that Cersei's children are not Robert's.  It's a fact, not subject to debate, because Cersei openly admitted it when accused by Ned.

But that fact is only known to the reader and a select few characters in the books.  It is not known to Westeros at large.

So if four books later, the ADWD appendix still lists Joffrey and Myrcella and Tommen as Robert's children, what does that mean? 

It means that the appendices are not supposed to reflect either objective truth or the knowledge in the reader's mind.  They only reflect the knowledge in the minds of the general public of Westeros (which isn't privvy to what the reader has learned).

It seems very likely that that same rule also applies to the new information in the app.  And what the general public "knows" is not always going to be correct.  (Though it is an interesting area of investigation how the public came to "know" it in some cases.)

So for instance the app says Jon has five siblings: Robb, Sansa, Arya, Bran, Rickon.  That is what is known to the public. 

But of course, all five of those statements are false if R+L=J.  The app and R+L=J thus contradict each other, and those among us who believe R+L=J are already dismissing what the app says, because there is no other logical choice if we are going to believe R+L=J. 

So we cannot then say that different information in the app is evidence in support of our fan theories.  We have already, in dismissing Jon's sibling info, admitted that app information is only evidence in support of what people in Westeros "know."  Which isn't the same thing as fan theories at all.

On 8/26/2020 at 1:58 PM, Sly Wren said:

And I have a very, very hard time believing Martin needed any kind of reminder on where Lyanna died. Eye colors of minor and semi-minor characters? Sure. Where Lyanna died? No way.

Of course.  And if the family tree had ever been meant solely for him, it would obviously have remained solely for him and would not have been shared with anyone at all. 

Does the family tree say that Jon is Ned's bastard? I bet it does.

[The Hidden Dragon]

52 minutes ago, HugorHell said:

It means that the appendices are not supposed to reflect either objective truth or the knowledge in the reader's mind.  They only reflect the knowledge in the minds of the general public of Westeros (which isn't privvy to what the reader has learned).

I agree 100%.

52 minutes ago, HugorHell said:

It seems very likely that that same rule also applies to the new information in the app.  And what the general public "knows" is not always going to be correct.  (Though it is an interesting area of investigation how the public came to "know" it in some cases.)

agree with all 3 sentences.

52 minutes ago, HugorHell said:

So we cannot then say that different information in the app is evidence in support of our fan theories.  We have already, in dismissing Jon's sibling info, admitted that app information is only evidence in support of what people in Westeros "know."  Which isn't the same thing as fan theories at all.

I disagree here.  It's quite possible that we, the readers, do not know all the information that the Westeros public know.  It would be quite the conceit to think otherwise. Just because a topic hasn't been discussed or thought of yet by a POV character(s) doesn't mean they don't know about it.  So it's possible that information from the app, which has not been verified by the text of the main series, is actually true.  To be fair, given GRRM's writing style of subterfuge and unreliable narrators, even new information from the app may not actually be true but, as you say, may represent what the westeros public believe to be true.  We simply don't know yet, and even at the end of books we may not "know" all the answers to the questions and mysteries that GRRM has littered throughout this story.

52 minutes ago, HugorHell said:

Does the family tree say that Jon is Ned's bastard? I bet it does.

That is an excellent question!  The Stark family tree in TWOIAF does show Jon as Ned's bastard, although it lists the mother as Unknown.  I wonder if Ran could comment on whether the family tree he saw lists Jon as Ned's bastard and the name of Jon's mother.  I suspect not.

[Frey family reunion]

1 hour ago, HugorHell said:

So we cannot then say that different information in the app is evidence in support of our fan theories.

I guess my main issue with using the app or even the SSM as evidence of events that have no been addressed in the books is that it seems to go against the fundamental nature of George’s story.  There is no omniscient narrator.  Everything we learn is through the lens of a POV character.  And with this the reader is given the limitations of what the character actually knows as opposed to what the character has been told, and we even have to be concerned with the character’s own biases and blind spots.  Is the character always truthful with themselves?  

The app serves as an omniscient narrator in a way, setting forth some things as unassailable fact when the story itself intentionally fails to do so.

[Sly Wren]

2 hours ago, HugorHell said:

Of course.  And if the family tree had ever been meant solely for him, it would obviously have remained solely for him and would not have been shared with anyone at all. 

Does the family tree say that Jon is Ned's bastard? I bet it does.

 

1 hour ago, The Hidden Dragon said:

That is an excellent question!  The Stark family tree in TWOIAF does show Jon as Ned's bastard, although it lists the mother as Unknown.  I wonder if Ran could comment on whether the family tree he saw lists Jon as Ned's bastard and the name of Jon's mother.  I suspect not.

I asked a while ago, but the answer I got back--didn't say one way or another. No hint at all.

That said, my question was wordy, so he may not have known exactly what I was asking. I decided not to pester him.

But given all the rest of the stuff in the app, I'd be very surprised if the family tree he saw wasn't like all the other trees: in-world, not objective, reality.

2 hours ago, HugorHell said:

So for instance the app says Jon has five siblings: Robb, Sansa, Arya, Bran, Rickon.  That is what is known to the public. 

But of course, all five of those statements are false if R+L=J.  The app and R+L=J thus contradict each other, and those among us who believe R+L=J are already dismissing what the app says, because there is no other logical choice if we are going to believe R+L=J. 

So we cannot then say that different information in the app is evidence in support of our fan theories.  We have already, in dismissing Jon's sibling info, admitted that app information is only evidence in support of what people in Westeros "know."  Which isn't the same thing as fan theories at all.

Yup. Martin's making it clear: we have to wait for the next books (grumble).

47 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

I guess my main issue with using the app or even the SSM as evidence of events that have no been addressed in the books is that it seems to go against the fundamental nature of George’s story.  There is no omniscient narrator.  Everything we learn is through the lens of a POV character.  And with this the reader is given the limitations of what the character actually knows as opposed to what the character has been told, and we even have to be concerned with the character’s own biases and blind spots.  Is the character always truthful with themselves?  

The app serves as an omniscient narrator in a way, setting forth some things as unassailable fact when the story itself intentionally fails to do so.

Agreed--though I'd add the app only serves this way if we (the readers) let ourselves forget how Martin sets up his world. When we remember that, the omniscience goes away.

[corbon]

On 8/27/2020 at 5:01 AM, alienarea said:

There needs to be an explanation why Ned gave Lyanna's bones to the silent sisters, but not the bones of his friends. Lyanna dying (a little) later in another location might be a good explanation.

No, there doesn't. That has been explained ad nausem.
(I had answers to more of your post above, but accidentally deleted them, so sorry this seems like a little piece of irrelevance on its own!)

On 8/27/2020 at 6:06 AM, LynnS said:

I can imagine that Ned would not want to implicate Ashara Dayne in any way. 

We can all imagine lots of things.
What I note is that Ned never, ever thinks of Ashara Dayne. Not to protect. Not to forget. Not to remember, not to feel sad, not to feel happy, not in response to stimulus. Period.
Even with direct stimulus, his emphasis is elsewhere - on Jon.

On 8/28/2020 at 8:52 PM, SerTarod said:

What is the evidence (your emphasis) that Lyanna died at the Tower of Joy? My reading of the story is that Lyanna is placed there because Ned, in his fever dream, thinks/dreams of Lyanna after the battle against the Kings Guard.

the primary evidence is that Ned starts an old dream, one he's had before, not one just coming out of his fever, and before the first scene he recognises it and names its key elements. 
That dream is the dream signified by; the knights in white cloaks, a tower long fallen, and Lyanna in her bed of blood.

This evidence is not the content of the dream, it is Ned's instant categorisation of it.
You may argue its not proof, but it is definitely evidence, very strong evidence.

Further evidence, is Lyanna's scream within the dream. Although we don;t see Lyanna in the dream, Ned's mind placing Lyanna there as Vayon Poole's voice bleeds into his unconsciousness is evidence that Ned's mind places her there. I think this is quite strong evidence, but not as strong as the categorisation of the dream - the categorisation is 'old' and not fever-affected, the contents could be fever-affected.

Supporting evidence includes Ned's recall of being found by HR with Lyanna, matching the 'only two rode away' being Ned and HR. HR is not placed in any other location.
This would be uselessly weak on its own, but provides backup for the other evidence. 

9 hours ago, HugorHell said:

"Official" also has a fairly specific meaning to Martin that we can figure out.

The reader knows, and has known since AGOT, that Cersei's children are not Robert's.  It's a fact, not subject to debate, because Cersei openly admitted it when accused by Ned.

But that fact is only known to the reader and a select few characters in the books.  It is not known to Westeros at large.

So if four books later, the ADWD appendix still lists Joffrey and Myrcella and Tommen as Robert's children, what does that mean? 

It means that the appendices are not supposed to reflect either objective truth or the knowledge in the reader's mind.  They only reflect the knowledge in the minds of the general public of Westeros (which isn't privvy to what the reader has learned).

Agreed

9 hours ago, HugorHell said:

It seems very likely that that same rule also applies to the new information in the app.  

This is false.

The app includes things that there does not appear to be evidence of being 'widely known to the general public of westeros. Whereas the appendices only contain knowledge that is 'public' in Westeros.
The app is based on the content of the 5 books, plus the D&E books. It is supposed to be a synthesis of our accumulated knowledge from those books, not the 'publicly available' knowledge in westeros. through its creation a small amount of new information was added, with GRRM's direct approval (one example being Hightower's mission to recall Rhagear, which was otherwise unknown, though vaguely implied through Hightower's absence in KL toward the end and presence with Rhaegar's 'crew' at ToJ

For example, the app has a page for Aggo. Westerosi, don't know anything about Aggo.
Or, try Anya Waynwood's page. The app tells us she is one of the Lords Declarent. That might be publicly known. But it also tells us that the Waynwoods are not as wealthy as might seem, and Baelish has been buying up their debts. Thats implicitly information not publicly known (or it wouldn't 'seem' that they wee wealthier than they are).
Take Tommen Baratheon's page. He has three parents listed, Cersei Jaime and Robert. His page includes information hath his mother tried to frame Maegery for treason. We know that, but its not exactly public knowledge.

Now, because not everything that we are told is always true, there will be some things in the app that are false - its nothing more than the synthesis of what we know from the books.  That does not mean we invalidate information from the app, it means we treat it with the same caution we treat the canon information from the main books.

9 hours ago, HugorHell said:

So we cannot then say that different information in the app is evidence in support of our fan theories. 

If it is new information it mostly (there may be a few rare exceptions) could be synthesised from old information and has been approved by GRRM. It should be treated by the same standard as we treat the main series at least. IMO. 'new' information from the app is in one way more likely to be truth - its very being there is an indication that the synthesis of old information that it comes from is supported by GRRM.

9 hours ago, HugorHell said:

We have already, in dismissing Jon's sibling info, admitted that app information is only evidence in support of what people in Westeros "know."  Which isn't the same thing as fan theories at all.

This is simply wrong.

[SerTarod]

On 8/29/2020 at 1:00 PM, Ygrain said:

"snip".

A little correction: Lyanna is placed there because Ned states that he repeatedly dreams about her, the fight with the KG and the tower.

"snip".

Thank you. With reference to "repeatedly", my recollection of the text is that Ned refers to it as an old dream and (correct me here) that he hadn't dreamed this dream in a long time and that it was ominous that it now re-occurred. I read this then that it was an old dream meaning Ned had dreamed it before (maybe more than once) but hardly (that the text enforces the concept) that it was "repeatedly" as in night after night, week in week out, year after year. This "repeatedly" is then your interpretation and so forms your opinion but I can't see it as incontrovertible evidence that I think you state with such conviction.

I see that you also responded to alienarea at post #494 above and seeing as I disagree that it is definitive that the dream points to one location only, jumping into this:

"Still the same flawed argument? is flawed because it does not match your interpretation? 

It was an OLD dream, about the tower, the KG and the dying Lyanna. He repeatedly dreams about these elements together because they belong together (have to disagree as per my comment above),

it is not a random one-time merger (this is your opinion).

Lyanna's death is connected with the tower and the fight with the KG (this is probably true but the argument (however flawed you may think it to be) that the death scene with Lyanna took place elsewhere does not detract from the R+L+J theory, as both events must have been important to Ned, it not unreasonable that Ned will think one thing after the first thing (i.e. showdown at the crumbling tower then the dying Lyanna ) as it is probable that the two events are related at least in sequence).

You may practice as much mental gymnastics as you want for all kinds of convoluted scenarios how else she might be connected but the simple and logical answer is that this is where she died.

Note also that we don't get to see the dying Lyanna in this particular iteration of the dream, (apologies, but does Ned not dream the same dream over and over again with the same elements? Are you now allowing for dreams to be different?)"

 

Edited August 31, 2020 by SerTarod
spelling and sequence/brackets

[SerTarod]

4 hours ago, corbon said:

Snips

the primary evidence is that Ned starts an old dream, one he's had before, not one just coming out of his fever, and before the first scene he recognises it and names its key elements. 
That dream is the dream signified by; the knights in white cloaks, a tower long fallen, and Lyanna in her bed of blood.

This evidence is not the content of the dream, it is Ned's instant categorisation of it.
You may argue its not proof, but it is definitely evidence, very strong evidence.

Further evidence, is Lyanna's scream within the dream. Although we don;t see Lyanna in the dream, Ned's mind placing Lyanna there as Vayon Poole's voice bleeds into his unconsciousness is evidence that Ned's mind places her there. I think this is quite strong evidence, but not as strong as the categorisation of the dream - the categorisation is 'old' and not fever-affected, the contents could be fever-affected.

Supporting evidence includes Ned's recall of being found by HR with Lyanna, matching the 'only two rode away' being Ned and HR. HR is not placed in any other location.
This would be uselessly weak on its own, but provides backup for the other evidence. 

snips.

Thank you Corbon 

I may not understand you correctly at the bolden, is his catergorisation of it - Ned calling it an old dream? I will agree that later he feels it was ominous, lending to the importance of the dream. I do not dispute the importance of the dream events, I disagree that it is uncontrovertible that the dream is definitive for certain conclusions.

Ygrain very kindly responded to my query as well and I think that my responses above will probably be the same to your comments.

 

Its a pity that we receive such amazing and important details regarding the Kings Guard trio and yet very little (some rose petals I think) about part two - Lyanna. 

[Bael's Bastard]

20 hours ago, HugorHell said:

"Official" also has a fairly specific meaning to Martin that we can figure out.

The reader knows, and has known since AGOT, that Cersei's children are not Robert's.  It's a fact, not subject to debate, because Cersei openly admitted it when accused by Ned.

But that fact is only known to the reader and a select few characters in the books.  It is not known to Westeros at large.

So if four books later, the ADWD appendix still lists Joffrey and Myrcella and Tommen as Robert's children, what does that mean? 

It means that the appendices are not supposed to reflect either objective truth or the knowledge in the reader's mind.  They only reflect the knowledge in the minds of the general public of Westeros (which isn't privvy to what the reader has learned).

It seems very likely that that same rule also applies to the new information in the app.  And what the general public "knows" is not always going to be correct.  (Though it is an interesting area of investigation how the public came to "know" it in some cases.)

So for instance the app says Jon has five siblings: Robb, Sansa, Arya, Bran, Rickon.  That is what is known to the public. 

But of course, all five of those statements are false if R+L=J.  The app and R+L=J thus contradict each other, and those among us who believe R+L=J are already dismissing what the app says, because there is no other logical choice if we are going to believe R+L=J. 

So we cannot then say that different information in the app is evidence in support of our fan theories.  We have already, in dismissing Jon's sibling info, admitted that app information is only evidence in support of what people in Westeros "know."  Which isn't the same thing as fan theories at all.

Of course.  And if the family tree had ever been meant solely for him, it would obviously have remained solely for him and would not have been shared with anyone at all. 

Does the family tree say that Jon is Ned's bastard? I bet it does.

The difference between stuff like Jon being listed as Ned's bastard/Cersei's kids being listed as Robert's children and Lyanna's place of death is that there is no hint Westeros knows or believes Lyanna died at the TOJ.

The only suggestion it might have occurred there is in the fevre dream of one of the few characters that witnessed Lyanna's death. Which is why we have good reason to think that is where it occurred.

Could the dream be conflating things that occurred at both the TOJ and Starfall? Sure. And the vague statements that Lyanna died in the Mountains of Dorne perhaps keep both possibilities alive.

But for now, we have no reason to think the realities the contents of Ned's dream are based on are common knowledge to Westeros like Jon being Ned's bastard is.