Jump to content

R + L = J v.167


Ygrain
 Share

Recommended Posts

On 8/29/2020 at 1:00 PM, Ygrain said:

In other words, there is no piece of text you can offer stating or at least suggesting the lack of water and wood at ToJ.

And do you keep dreaming about the same elements connected to a real event all the time?

Lyanna in the bed of blood does not actually appear in the dream, yet Ned still lumps her in as a part of what the dream is about.

And this matters how? Even if she persisted a couple of days after the fight, which is certainly not impossible, it would still be the place where she died.

First, it is in no way a given that it was SS who treated Lyanna's bones.

Second, even if Lyanna died elsewhere, Ned could still arrange for the SS to be sent to ToJ - unless the time needed for fetching them was actually much longer than for arranging the burial that he did give them and the corpses would start to decompose, (which is really not something you want to do to your friends and esteemed enemies.)

Also, arranging for Lyanna's remains to be transported is not a matter of choice for Ned, he promised it, so he had to do whatever it took to fulfill that promise, even travelling with her body already rotting (unless there were some ingredients that could prevent or at least slow the decay, which definitely wouldn't be available in the amounts needed for all the other eight bodies). I still think cremation would be easiest, but again - collecting enough fuel for one pyre is way easier than for eight more.

A little correction: Lyanna is placed there because Ned states that he repeatedly dreams about her, the fight with the KG and the tower.

The only part here I can agree with is that "return of Dawn" is totally a coverup.

The rest doesn't really make sense. Why take newborn Jon to ToJ, where you lack the resources and it is close to Robert's territory, from Starfall, where you can easily arrange the care and transport to safety? And if you take him from Lyanna, why would you inform her where you are going to hide?

If both Jon and Lyanna are at ToJ, you still need to get Jon away and you cannot return to KL or your forces exactly from there because you wouldn't convince anyone that he is your baby. You need to put time and place between Jon and ToJ, as well as yourself - if you have been gone for months, there are tons of possibilites where you might have picked him (personally, I'd ask Howland to take a ship and bring Jon North where I might pick him somewhere along the way, while I travel back to KL, with Lyanna's bones, to give Robert a shoulder to cry on. No baby, no suspicions). If Ned turns up at Starfall with Wylla and Jon, no-one has an idea that he had gone to find Lya or what he had been doing prior, so they have no reason to question if the baby is his.

If Ran's theory about Jon at Starfall is correct, then the scenario works even better - Ned goes to "return Dawn" and pick his natural son, and the Daynes cannot really refuse him. And since Wylla arrived well before him, no connection to the ToJ events there.

I guess we agree that the old dream confirms that the events happened in this order: 

1. Fight at the ToJ

2. Lyanna in her bed of blood

What the dream does not confirm is how much time elapses between 1. and 2.

We know that Ned tore down the tower and buildt cairns for the fallen.

In my understanding this does not make sense if Lyanna had been at the ToJ. Your sister just died, there's a newborn around, and you build eight cairns? Really?

But if you do not know that your sister is dying in a bed of blood, and you just fought this epic fight losing five of your best friends, and killing the best knight of the seven kingdoms plus two kingsguards, then you can build eight cairns to honor the dead and not to leave them to the vultures and jackals.

After you have done this, you pick up the fabled sword and return it to the family, either because you already know your sister is there, or because you ask for information on her whereabouts in return.

And because you ride some days through the sands of Dorne from the ToJ to Starfall, this travel doe s not make it into the dream.

The dream chronicles the events, not their details. For example, we don't know what Howland did to have Ned kill Arthur.

I do not read anything in the books contradicting my interpretation. I also provide an explanation why those who died at the ToJ got buried there while Lyanna's bones got send home.

But yours requires the presence of at least one unnamed servant at the ToJ ("a tower long fallen", not a Best Western Motel). And no explanation for sending back Lyanna's bones while burying your friends.

In court, which is the stronger case?

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

21 hours ago, SerTarod said:

Thank you Corbon 

I may not understand you correctly at the bolden, is his catergorisation of it - Ned calling it an old dream?

No, I don't think you understand it correctly.
It being an old dream is important in that it goes a long way towards 'nullifying' the 'he's in a fever' effect that people (including a mischievous GRRM dodging an overly revealing question B) ) use to casts doubts on the dream. Its not just a 'fever dream', its a non-fever dream thats being repeated during a fever.
But thats not the evidence that makes it a dream about Lyanna in her bed of blood, tying her death to the Tower.

This old dream is one Ned knows well. I understand where you argue with @Ygrain that we don't know how many times the dream has been repeated in the past, or how recently it was repeated last, and thats technically true. But the relevant point is that before he even begins to describe the first scene, he knows this dream. He knows whats coming. He knows whats in it. He knows what its about. He tells us about it. This is 'that' dream, the one with X, Y and Z. He's recognised it immediately, before the elements of X, Y or Z have yet appeared in it.
That tells us an enormous amount about the relevance, repeatability, and continuity of the dream even before we know a single thing of its contents.

But the important thing tying Lyanna's death to the tower scene comes next, when he gives us his categorisation of the dream. His X, Y and Z. Its that dream, the old one with X (3 knights in white cloaks), Y (a tower long fallen) and Z (Lyanna in her bed of blood).
This is like me saying to my kids, I'm going to tell you a story of Goldilocks and the three bears.. Goldilocks is the X and the three bears the Y (no z, 3rd element in this example). The kids know the story already, instantly, even before I start telling it, from the elemental categorisation, because its a familiar one. So with Ned, he knows this dream already, he has an elemental categorisation  that uniquely (in his mind at least) matches it.

So then, we know this is the dream of 3KiWC, aTLF and LihBoB.

Lets then examine the elements Ned gives.
2 of them are rather generic and emotionless. A bit like 'the three bears'. They help, but they are not the key identifying elements, They don't have uniqueness and they don't have emotional resonance in themselves for Ned. Goldilocks is the real clue, the 3 bears is just there to help the identifying, in case there is more than one 'Goldilocks' tale. So with Ned. Lyanna in her bed of blood is the real clue. The 3KiWC and the TLF are just additional elements to help identify this particular dream about Lyanna in her Bed of Blood.
Its actually interesting if you think about it. The dream parts we do see (its cut short remember, by Vayon Poole's interruption), are clearly directly leading to a different event of hugely emotional significance - the death of 5 of Ned's closest friends and companions. Yet this is not the dream about his friends dying. Why is that? I think the answer is very obvious. The death of Lyanna is hugely more impactful for Ned, it it greatly overshadows the deaths of his friends. And his finding her dying clearly happens very soon after the death of his friends to overshadow their deaths in a single event, even if it takes a day or two (possibly) for her to die after he finds her there. (I tend to think she likely died fairly soon, within hours at most, but its not really required by anything. More of a displacement effect thing than anything else - she's hanging on, then when Ned finds her and promises to care for her child, she can release her fight. Probably, IMO. But only GRRM knows for sure.)

If the death of Lyanna was at another location (Starfall for example), there would be a lot of time and events and things happening between the ToJ scene and the imminent deaths of Ned's friends, and the deathbed scene of Lyanna in her bed of blood. He's torn down the tower. He's built the cairns. He's buried and mourned his friends. He's ridden off with HR. He's arrived somewhere else probably several days or weeks travel away. He's met other people there. Then, and only then, has he found Lyanna in her bed of blood.
If thats the case, then the ToJ scene is about his friends dying, not Lyanna. Even if he found a necessary clue or piece of information that led him to her. 'Clues' in a trail don't create emotional traumatic ties the ways Ned does here.

I don't see how any remotely reasonable person can tie Lyanna's death to the Tower of Joy scene as 'a thing' if so many other things have happened in between. There simply isn't the emotional tie-together that Ned clearly makes in that case.  
I do accept that people can have not thought this through in the same way (our brains don't all make the same connections and draw the same relationships) and so not make the connections to understand the relevance of what Ned says is a single sentence. But I simply can't unsee this. Its definitive.

13 hours ago, alienarea said:

I guess we agree that the old dream confirms that the events happened in this order: 

1. Fight at the ToJ

2. Lyanna in her bed of blood

Probably, but not definitively. He's told us the key identifying elements, but the order of them appearing in his identifier is not necessarily time-lineal. they are just the things that signify 'that dream'.

The prime reason we place Lyanna's death after the fight is that this is the dream about her death, based on memories, yet she hasn't appeared yet before the dream is interrupted. Plainly her death happens after the elements of the dream we do see.

13 hours ago, alienarea said:

What the dream does not confirm is how much time elapses between 1. and 2.

It is completely unreasonable for any significant amount of time (days or weeks to do the stuff Ned does and then travel to another location and interact with other people) to have elapsed between the fight and Ned finding Lyanna in her bed of blood. There are too many other events and happenings in between, including major emotional triggers to have such separate and unrelated elements tied together as 'a thing' the way Ned does. His dream then is not about 3KiWC, aTLF and LiHBoB. Its about a whole massive bunch of things too, or just 3KiWC, aTLF and "5 dead friends"

13 hours ago, alienarea said:

We know that Ned tore down the tower and buildt cairns for the fallen.

In my understanding this does not make sense if Lyanna had been at the ToJ. Your sister just died, there's a newborn around, and you build eight cairns? Really?

Yes, There is nothing to not make sense of.
He has a wetnurse - Lyanna would have needed one anyway so the KG almost certainly had arrangements of their own already (which incidentally fits perfectly both into 'they' finding him with HR and also the Starfall belief that Wylla-the-wetnurse is Jon's mother. She clearly was already nursing Jon when Ned arrived at Starfall, to give them that impression). He needs to deal with the bodies of his friends at least - and 8 is not much harder than 5. He probably needs to deal with Lyanna's corpse as well - he can't exactly carry that around long-term, rotting in the warm Dornish climate. He has HR and probably the wetnurse, maybe even another civilian or two (I prefer not, but don't know, some prefer a Maester like Marwyn). There is no immediate drive to leave, to rush to the next thing. A day or two to process, grieve, bury his friends and honoured enemies, is entirely suitable. 

13 hours ago, alienarea said:

The dream chronicles the events, not their details. For example, we don't know what Howland did to have Ned kill Arthur.

It doesn't even do that. Its a dream about one thing, and one thing only. Lyanna in her bed of blood. Its not a chronicle, its a single significant event (only one emotional signifier in the classification) that starts outside the tower and is interrupted before making it inside the tower.

13 hours ago, alienarea said:

I do not read anything in the books contradicting my interpretation.

Ned's classification of the dream absolutely contradicts your interpretation.

13 hours ago, alienarea said:

I also provide an explanation why those who died at the ToJ got buried there while Lyanna's bones got send home.

So does everyone else. Its not hard.

13 hours ago, alienarea said:

But yours requires the presence of at least one unnamed servant at the ToJ ("a tower long fallen", not a Best Western Motel).

It wasn't fallen then. The KG waited before the 'round' tower, not the fallen tower or the crumbled tower. Ned pulled it down after the fight - he told us so. Its long fallen now, 15 years later. 

13 hours ago, alienarea said:

And no explanation for sending back Lyanna's bones while burying your friends.

Bullshit. Multiple explanations have been provided. 

13 hours ago, alienarea said:

In court, which is the stronger case?

Well, if one sides lawyer tries his worst to state the other side's case, utterly botching the details along the way... :rolleyes:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, corbon said:

If the death of Lyanna was at another location (Starfall for example), there would be a lot of time and events and things happening between the ToJ scene and the imminent deaths of Ned's friends, and the deathbed scene of Lyanna in her bed of blood. He's torn down the tower. He's built the cairns. He's buried and mourned his friends. He's ridden off with HR. He's arrived somewhere else probably several days or weeks travel away. He's met other people there. Then, and only then, has he found Lyanna in her bed of blood.
If thats the case, then the ToJ scene is about his friends dying, not Lyanna.

Why? WHY? Whyyyyyyy? Why the heck do you think that if Lyanna died not at the Tower of Joy, then she died after the fight with KG? It could be the opposite.

If, for example, from Storm's End Ned arrived to Starfall, where he found dying Lyanna in a bed of blood. Lyanna died, then Ned departed from Starfall with Howland, and went to the Tower of Joy, where he fought with the Kingsguards. Lyanna was already dead, thus there was no reason for Ned to haste anywhere. Before going back to Starfall, he torned down the tower, build the cairns, buried his friends, etc. If little Jon and Wylla at that time were also at the Tower, he could have sent them back to Starfall, while he remained there to deal with the outcome of the fight. If I remember correctly, in that fight Howland got wounded, thus it's unlikely that Ned torned down the Tower, and just left Howland to recuperate under the open sky. Most likely, he sent wounded Howland to Starfall together with Wylla and Jon. Probably, if the Kingsguards took Jon and Wylla with them, when they departed from Starfall (where Lyanna was staying entire time of Rebellion), then they took a cart or a carriage on which they transported the wet-nurse and the baby. Back to Starfall the cart/carriage also carried wounded Howland.

If Ned haven't met Lyanna prior the battle at the Tower, then he wouldn't have wasted time to build cairns or to bury dead, he would have been in a hurry to find his sister. Though if he already met Lyanna before the fight at the Tower, and if prior he went to the Tower, Lyanna was already dead, then there was no reason for Ned to hurry anywhere, as soon as he retrieved Jon, he had all the time in the world to do whatever he wanted, including making up a cover story for Jon's birth. Also, if the Tower of Joy was the place of Lyanna's death, he wouldn't have torned it down, instead he would have turned it into mausoleum/memorial.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, corbon said:

I don't see how any remotely reasonable person can tie Lyanna's death to the Tower of Joy scene as 'a thing' if so many other things have happened in between. There simply isn't the emotional tie-together that Ned clearly makes in that case.  

The connection is what Ned would have retrieved from the tower of joy and the sacrifices he made to retrieve it along with the promise that Lyanna elicited from Ned.  This is the connection, the promise had to do with what Ned retrieved from the tower.

The travel time between the battle at the tower of joy and Starfall (if indeed that is where Lyanna lay) is meaningless to Ned, his dream just directs him to the high points (low points?) of those events.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

14 hours ago, corbon said:

No, I don't think you understand it correctly.
It being an old dream is important in that it goes a long way towards 'nullifying' the 'he's in a fever' effect that people (including a mischievous GRRM dodging an overly revealing question B) ) use to casts doubts on the dream. Its not just a 'fever dream', its a non-fever dream thats being repeated during a fever.
But thats not the evidence that makes it a dream about Lyanna in her bed of blood, tying her death to the Tower.

This old dream is one Ned knows well. I understand where you argue with @Ygrain that we don't know how many times the dream has been repeated in the past, or how recently it was repeated last, and thats technically true. But the relevant point is that before he even begins to describe the first scene, he knows this dream. He knows whats coming. He knows whats in it. He knows what its about. He tells us about it. This is 'that' dream, the one with X, Y and Z. He's recognised it immediately, before the elements of X, Y or Z have yet appeared in it.
That tells us an enormous amount about the relevance, repeatability, and continuity of the dream even before we know a single thing of its contents.

But the important thing tying Lyanna's death to the tower scene comes next, when he gives us his categorisation of the dream. His X, Y and Z. Its that dream, the old one with X (3 knights in white cloaks), Y (a tower long fallen) and Z (Lyanna in her bed of blood).
This is like me saying to my kids, I'm going to tell you a story of Goldilocks and the three bears.. Goldilocks is the X and the three bears the Y (no z, 3rd element in this example). The kids know the story already, instantly, even before I start telling it, from the elemental categorisation, because its a familiar one. So with Ned, he knows this dream already, he has an elemental categorisation  that uniquely (in his mind at least) matches it.

So then, we know this is the dream of 3KiWC, aTLF and LihBoB.

Lets then examine the elements Ned gives.
2 of them are rather generic and emotionless. A bit like 'the three bears'. They help, but they are not the key identifying elements, They don't have uniqueness and they don't have emotional resonance in themselves for Ned. Goldilocks is the real clue, the 3 bears is just there to help the identifying, in case there is more than one 'Goldilocks' tale. So with Ned. Lyanna in her bed of blood is the real clue. The 3KiWC and the TLF are just additional elements to help identify this particular dream about Lyanna in her Bed of Blood.
Its actually interesting if you think about it. The dream parts we do see (its cut short remember, by Vayon Poole's interruption), are clearly directly leading to a different event of hugely emotional significance - the death of 5 of Ned's closest friends and companions. Yet this is not the dream about his friends dying. Why is that? I think the answer is very obvious. The death of Lyanna is hugely more impactful for Ned, it it greatly overshadows the deaths of his friends. And his finding her dying clearly happens very soon after the death of his friends to overshadow their deaths in a single event, even if it takes a day or two (possibly) for her to die after he finds her there. (I tend to think she likely died fairly soon, within hours at most, but its not really required by anything. More of a displacement effect thing than anything else - she's hanging on, then when Ned finds her and promises to care for her child, she can release her fight. Probably, IMO. But only GRRM knows for sure.)

If the death of Lyanna was at another location (Starfall for example), there would be a lot of time and events and things happening between the ToJ scene and the imminent deaths of Ned's friends, and the deathbed scene of Lyanna in her bed of blood. He's torn down the tower. He's built the cairns. He's buried and mourned his friends. He's ridden off with HR. He's arrived somewhere else probably several days or weeks travel away. He's met other people there. Then, and only then, has he found Lyanna in her bed of blood.
If thats the case, then the ToJ scene is about his friends dying, not Lyanna. Even if he found a necessary clue or piece of information that led him to her. 'Clues' in a trail don't create emotional traumatic ties the ways Ned does here.

I don't see how any remotely reasonable person can tie Lyanna's death to the Tower of Joy scene as 'a thing' if so many other things have happened in between. There simply isn't the emotional tie-together that Ned clearly makes in that case.  
I do accept that people can have not thought this through in the same way (our brains don't all make the same connections and draw the same relationships) and so not make the connections to understand the relevance of what Ned says is a single sentence. But I simply can't unsee this. Its definitive.

Probably, but not definitively. He's told us the key identifying elements, but the order of them appearing in his identifier is not necessarily time-lineal. they are just the things that signify 'that dream'.

The prime reason we place Lyanna's death after the fight is that this is the dream about her death, based on memories, yet she hasn't appeared yet before the dream is interrupted. Plainly her death happens after the elements of the dream we do see.

It is completely unreasonable for any significant amount of time (days or weeks to do the stuff Ned does and then travel to another location and interact with other people) to have elapsed between the fight and Ned finding Lyanna in her bed of blood. There are too many other events and happenings in between, including major emotional triggers to have such separate and unrelated elements tied together as 'a thing' the way Ned does. His dream then is not about 3KiWC, aTLF and LiHBoB. Its about a whole massive bunch of things too, or just 3KiWC, aTLF and "5 dead friends"

Yes, There is nothing to not make sense of.
He has a wetnurse - Lyanna would have needed one anyway so the KG almost certainly had arrangements of their own already (which incidentally fits perfectly both into 'they' finding him with HR and also the Starfall belief that Wylla-the-wetnurse is Jon's mother. She clearly was already nursing Jon when Ned arrived at Starfall, to give them that impression). He needs to deal with the bodies of his friends at least - and 8 is not much harder than 5. He probably needs to deal with Lyanna's corpse as well - he can't exactly carry that around long-term, rotting in the warm Dornish climate. He has HR and probably the wetnurse, maybe even another civilian or two (I prefer not, but don't know, some prefer a Maester like Marwyn). There is no immediate drive to leave, to rush to the next thing. A day or two to process, grieve, bury his friends and honoured enemies, is entirely suitable. 

It doesn't even do that. Its a dream about one thing, and one thing only. Lyanna in her bed of blood. Its not a chronicle, its a single significant event (only one emotional signifier in the classification) that starts outside the tower and is interrupted before making it inside the tower.

Ned's classification of the dream absolutely contradicts your interpretation.

So does everyone else. Its not hard.

It wasn't fallen then. The KG waited before the 'round' tower, not the fallen tower or the crumbled tower. Ned pulled it down after the fight - he told us so. Its long fallen now, 15 years later. 

Bullshit. Multiple explanations have been provided. 

Well, if one sides lawyer tries his worst to state the other side's case, utterly botching the details along the way... :rolleyes:

Don't be rude, ok?

We disagree, which is fine by me.

I do not need to invent servants and a wetnurse (none of whom are mentioned in the books) in my interpretation.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 8/28/2020 at 1:52 AM, SerTarod said:

What is the evidence (your emphasis) that Lyanna died at the Tower of Joy? My reading of the story is that Lyanna is placed there because Ned, in his fever dream, thinks/dreams of Lyanna after the battle against the Kings Guard.

I see you have responses by others, including @Ygrain, @Bael's Bastard, and @corbon, who have given quite capable responses to your question. All of which are posters I highly respect, but since you asked me for my response, let me add mine own thoughts to theirs, even if I partly duplicate theirs. I'm sorry for the late response, but life does sometimes get in the way.

Now, you could get some of that evidence by reading previous posts in this thread, or even more by reading the information in the first post in every R+L=J thread for many, many years, but I'll try to lay out the evidence again, as I see it, for you. Among my problems in responding is that there is so much to speak to if I attempt do so adequately. 

You see, it isn't just a question of what is the direct evidence that points to Lyanna dying at the Tower of Joy, but it is also a question of what is the evidence for us to believe any of Ned's dream represents reality. All of that is what I call "foundational evidence" that provides the framework necessary to help us make such a judgement, including where Lyanna dies.

But because you ask a honest question, and, as such it deserves an honest, full response, let me to take the time to try to do both.

Direct Evidence

First to Ned's dream. In the beginning Ned, from a perspective outside of the dream, states the following:

Quote

"He dreamt an old dream, of three knights in white cloaks, and a tower long fallen, and Lyanna in her bed of blood." (AGoT 445) US 20th Anniversary Illustrated edition bold emphasis added

Here Ned explicitly ties "Lyanna in her bed of blood" with the "three knights in white cloaks" and a "tower long fallen."  The dream includes all three components  as part of the same "old dream" - meaning he has dreamt  this dream before, and "Lyanna in her bed of blood" is not something that is brought in as a new component to this recurring dream. So, yes, you are right the evidence starts with the dream Ned has in which he not only has a confrontation with three members of Aerys's Kingsguard at the Tower of Joy, but also in which Lyanna screams out to him as Ned is woken from his dream. The evidence doesn't end there, but it is a critical part of understanding the story.

That is how the dream begins. Here is the ending:

Quote

"No," Ned said with sadness in his voice. "Now it ends. As they came together in a rush of steel and shadow, he could hear Lyanna screaming, "Eddard!" she called. A storm of rose petals blew across a blood-streaked sky, as blue as the eyes of death.

"Lord Eddard," Lyanna called again.

"I promise," he whispered. "Lya, I promise."

(AGoT 446) US 20th Anniversary Illustrated edition bold emphasis added

Ned linking Lyanna in her bed of blood to the events at the Tower of Joy, and Ned's promise to his dying sister frame the dream.

Lyanna screaming and, most importantly Ned's response of "I promise" and "Lya, I promise" are critical in understanding the connection of all the elements in this dream.

I do not doubt that beginning with the phrase "Lord Eddard" we see Vayon Poole's voice begins to intrude into the dream, but the scream of "Eddard!" and most especially Ned's response to his sister tell us the connection of Lyanna's dying screams and Ned's response to promise something to her are tied directly to the rest of the dream. Ned doesn't just respond with a dreaming "what?" to his name, but he responds with a promise to Lya. What that promise was we are not told, but we are told elsewhere that Ned does indeed make his sister promises. He does so on her deathbed.

Quote

That was his curse. Robert would swear undying love and forget them before evenfall, but Ned Stark kept his vows. He thought of the promises he'd made Lyanna as she lay dying and the price he'd paid to keep them.

(AGoT 401) US 20th Anniversary Illustrated edition. Bold emphasis added

This again is Ned in his private thoughts about promises he made to the dying sister. 

Quote

"I was with her when she died," Ned reminded the king. "She wanted to come home, to rest beside Brandon and Father." He could hear her still at times. Promise me, she had cried, in a room that smelled of blood and roses. Promise me, Ned. The fever had taken her strength and her voice had been faint as a whisper, but when he gave her his word, the fear had gone out of his sister's eyes. Ned remembered the way she had smiled then, how tightly her fingers had clutched his as she gave up her hold on life, The little crannogman, Howland Reed had taken her hand from his. Ned could recall none of it. "I bring her flowers when I can." he said. "Lyanna was ... fond of flowers."

(AGoT 49) US 20th Anniversary Illustrated edition bold emphasis added

Again we have Ned's memories shown in his innermost thoughts. Not subject to any maintenance of lies he may have had to continue for others, but only his own memory of Lyanna's death. A death marked in his mind not only by the deep seated grief he shows here some fifteen years later, but also by the promises he had made to her as she lay dying. To me, this is powerful evidence that Ned's dreaming last moments are thinking back to Lyanna's last moments of life. The dream is not only about "Lyanna in her bed of blood' but is clearly about Lyanna's death.

It is also important to note her that Ned ties Lyanna's death directly to a moment in which Howland Reed finds him holding Lya's dead body. We know Howland was present at the Tower of Joy and the duel with the Kingsguard that takes place there. We have no evidence that places him with Ned and Lyanna anywhere else save the long ago tourney at Harrenhal after which Lyanna is very much alive for literally years later.

Here, let me say, I think it likely Howland does accompany Ned to Starfall to return Dawn to the Daynes, but we have no evidence that is the case. We have evidence that places Ned and Howland together at the Tower of Joy, but none that shows Lord Reed travelled to Starfall. Those who believe Lyanna died at Starfall and not at the Tower of Joy need to provide evidence Howland is there with Ned to even open up the possibility of Lyanna dying there. We know Howland is with Ned in the immediate aftermath of Lyanna's death.

Ned tying Lyanna in her bed of blood to the events at the Tower of Joy, and Ned's promise to his dying sister frame the dream. It is all of one piece that constitutes the recurring "old dream." But this is not the only direct evidence.

Quote

At the war's end, Lyanna Stark was found dying by her brother Eddard,and by Howland Reed, in the red mountains of Dorne, at the place Rhaegar called the tower of joy. (World of Ice and Fire / Lyanna Stark entry) bold emphasis added

The evidence in the app entry points directly to Lyanna dying at the Tower of Joy. Of course, nothing is set in stone in a work of fiction. Those who want to question this evidence should, however, provide evidence that contradicts this history. Fan fiction is not evidence. It maybe entertaining, and it maybe creative. It isn't evidence.

Quote

House Stark

Parents: Rickard Stark

Siblings: Brandon Stark, Eddard Stark, Benjen Stark

Origin: Winterfell

Place of birth: Winterfell

Place of death: Red Mountains of Dorne

World of Ice and Fire app / Lyanna Stark entry) underlined emphasis added

Again, direct evidence from the same source.

Quote

Lord Robert, Lyanna's betrothed, was consumed by the need to avenge himself on Rhaegar, but the prince could not be found for the first months of the war. Rumor had it that he was in the south with Lyanna, at a place he called the Tower of Joy, near the red mountains of Dorne.

World of Ice and Fire app / Rhaegar Targaryen entry) bold emphasis added

This entry agrees with the one in Lyanna's entry.

I hope that helps in understanding the direct evidence that does clearly support the idea that Lyanna dies at the Tower of Joy.

Foundational Evidence

What I'm looking for here is evidence that shows that the information given to us in Lord Stark's dream reflects reality. Not just information on Lyanna dying at the Tower, but anything that shows we should believe Ned's dream has elements of actual events, people, locations, and sequence of the history reflected in the dream.

From the same perspective as the first quote above, Ned names his six companions:

Quote

"In the dream his friends rode with him, as they had in life. Proud Martyn Cassel, Jory's father; faithful Theo Wull; Ethan Glover, who had been Brandon's squire; Ser Mark Ryswell, soft of speech and gentle of heart; the crannogman, Howland Reed; Lord Dustin on his great red stallion." (AGoT 445) US 20th Anniversary Illustrated edition. bold emphasis added

 Which tells us not only the names and number of his companions, but also that this gathering of Ned with these men is not just a figment of his dreaming state. This much we know is real according to Ned's waking memories as well as in his recurring dream. Ned then tells us who he and his companions face.

Quote

"They were seven, facing three. In the dream as it had been in life." (AGoT 445) US 20th Anniversary Illustrated edition. bold emphasis added

Again, there is the repetition that the dream and historic reality coincide in this meeting of Ned's party with the three yet unnamed men in white cloaks. It tells us this is not just a dream fantasy or a product of his fevered state, but a reflection, at least in part, to real events. And then he names the three men.

Quote

"Yet they were no ordinary three. They waited before the round tower, the red mountains of Dorne at their backs, their white cloaks blowing in the wind. And these were no shadow, their faces burned clear, even now. Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning, had a smile on his lips. The hilt of the greatsword Dawn poked up over his right shoulder. Ser Oswell Whent was on one knee, sharpening his blade with a whetstone. Across his white enameled helm, the black bat of his House spread its wings. Between them stood fierce old Ser Gerold Hightower, the White Bull, Lord Commander of Kingsguard." (AGoT 445-446) US 20th Anniversary Illustrated edition bold emphasis added

Here we are told the three encountered men are Ser Arthur, Ser Oswell, and Ser Gerold. All members of Aerys's Kingsguard. What follows is a dialogue that could reflect Ned's own long unresolved troubles with the motivations of the Kingsguard in this fight, or it could be an actual memory of the event, or something in between. What isn't in doubt is the outcome of the fight that follows.

This part of Ned's dream then gives us not only the name and number of the participants in the duel, but also a preliminary indication of its location, albeit a very general one in his description of "the round tower, the red mountains of Dorne at their backs." Is this then just a product of a fevered dream, or is it a reflection of reality?

One detail we should note here is that in Ned's dream Ser Arthur has his greatsword Dawn strapped to his back. It is an important detail in the construction of the sequence of events that follow.

Quote

"Jory and the others ..."

"I gave them over to the silent sisters, to be sent north to Winterfell. Jory would want to be beside his grandfather."

It would have to be his grandfather, for Jory's father was buried far to the south. Martyn Cassel had perished with the rest. Ned had pulled the tower down afterward, and used its bloody stones to build eight cairns upon the ridge. It was said that Rhaegar had named the place the tower of joy, but for Ned it was a bitter memory. They had been seven against three, yet only two had lived to walk away; Eddard Stark himself and the little crannogman, Howland Reed. He did not think it omened well that he should dream that dream again after so many years. (AGoT 448) US 20th Anniversary Illustrated edition bold emphasis added

This is not from the dream, although Ned connects it directly to the dream from which he has just been awoken by his steward. This is the waking Ned Stark thinking to himself about past events as he remembers them. Ned has no reason to lie to himself. The reader is forced to either believe Ned is delusional in his memories or this kind of evidence is among the most reliable a reader can find.

As such, we know the general location and the name of the "tower long fallen." We have the strongest of evidence to show Ned and his six companions fought the three Kingsguard in a duel to the death that resulted in eight of the ten combatants dying, with only Ned and Howland surviving the fight.

The evidence is also supported by the tale Ned tells Bran about Ser Arthur almost killing him, but for the intervention of Howland Reed.

Quote

Something his father had told him once when he was little came back to him suddenly. He had asked Lord Eddard if the Kingsguard were truly the finest knights in the Seven Kingdoms. "No longer," he answered, "but once they were a marvel, a shining lesson to the world." 

"Was there one who was the best of all?"

"The finest knight I ever saw was Ser Arthur Dayne, who fought with a blade called Dawn, forged from the heart of a fallen star. They called him the Sword of the Morning, and he would have killed me but for Howland Reed." Father had gotten sad then, and he would say no more. Bran wished he had asked him what he meant. (ACoK 285) US Illustrated edition bold emphasis added

Precisely when, during the duel at the Tower of Joy, Ser Arthur died is open to question, but at sometime during the fight Howland Reed saved Lord Eddard from death dealt out by the Sword of the Morning.

This account of the duel comes to us in somewhat altered form by the way of the rumors Ned's soldiers bring back to Winterfell, and in the historical accounts written in The World of Ice & Fire.

Quote

Ned would not speak of the mother, not so much as a word, but a castle has no secrets, and Catelyn heard her maids repeating tales they heard from the lips of her husband's soldiers. They whispered of Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning, deadliest of the seven knights of Aerys's Kingsguard, and how their young lord had slain him in single combat. And they told how afterward Ned had carried Ser Arthur's sword back to the beautiful young sister who awaited him in a castle called Starfall on the shores of the Summer Sea. (AGoT 71) US 20th Anniversary Illustrated edition bold emphasis added

The app also supports all of this.

Quote

The Tower of Joy, which is located at the northern end of the Prince's Pass through the red mountains of Dorne, is said to have gotten its name from Prince Rhaegar Targaryen. At the end of Robert's Rebellion, Lord Eddard Stark has the tower pulled town and uses its stones to raise cairns for his five companions and the three knights of the Kingsguard who perish fighting them.

World of Ice and Fire app / Tower of Joy entry) bold emphasis added

And from The World of Ice & Fire:

Quote

Most famous of all was Ser Arthur Dayne, the deadliest of King Aerys II's Kingsguard, who defeated the Kingswood Brotherhood and won renown in every tourney and mêlée. He died nobly with his sworn brothers at the end of Robert's Rebellion, after Lord Eddard Stark was said to have killed him in single combat. Lord Stark then returned Dawn to Starfall, and to Ser Arthur's kin, as a sign of respect. (TWoI&F 239) bold emphasis added

All three accounts have Ser Arthur dying in combat with Ned, and Lord Eddard returning the sword Dawn to Starfall afterwords. The difference in the accounts is restricted to whether or not it is Ned alone that faces Ser Arthur. Given Ned is the only source we have that was actually there, we must give preference to his own account as the most accurate one.

Therefore, we know it was at the place Rhaegar named the "tower of joy" this duel takes place, and that the tower is at least partially torn down by Ned, and perhaps with the help of others to make cairns for the eight dead men. Presumably, Ned didn't transport the bodies and the stones any long distance to build those cairns. We have no evidence or reason to think he did so, and as such the evidence we do have, and common sense, points very strongly that the cairns are in the close vicinity of where the fight and the tower were located.

As to the geographical location of the Tower of Joy, we have the map included in A Dance of Dragons's front page of the south of Westeros which places the Tower of Joy in the Northeastern most section of land overlooking the Princes Pass. The map of Dorne on page 234 of The World of Ice & Fire also places the Tower just inside of the Northern boundary of Dorne. It is the same on maps 2 (The West) and 5 (Westeros) in The Lands of Ice and Fire.

Noted  nearby castles include Nightsong (seat of House Caron) to the north in the Stormlands, Kingsgrave (seat of House Manwoody) to the south in Dorne, and Vulture's Roost (a ruined castle) to the east also in Dorne. As an aside, this puts Lord Dagos Manwoody and his brother Ser Myles as prime suspects for the local lords in whose territory the Tower of Joy belongs.

All of which support vital parts of Ned's dream as fact, and not the mere product of Ned's dream state. I think with just this information we can be fairly certain the dream then reflects reality in a least as far as the identities of the participants in the duel, the immediate fate of each participants in the duel, and the location and name of the place in which the duel takes place. But this is not the limit of what we can find evidence to support very important aspects of the dream being true. This is especially so when we look at the dream dialogue between Ned and the Kingsguard.

Quote

"I looked for you on the Trident," Ned said to them.

"We were not there," Ser Gerold answered.

"Woe to the Usurper if we had been," Said Ser Oswell.

(AGoT 446) US 20th Anniversary Illustrated edition bold emphasis added

This part of the dialogue tells us that the Battle of the Trident takes place be for the encounter at the Tower of Joy, and that the Kingsguard members in the duel were not present at the Trident.

Quote

"When King's Landing fell, Ser Jaime slew your king with a golden sword, and I wondered where you were."

"Far away," Ser Gerold said, "or Aerys would yet sit the Iron Throne, and our false brother would burn in seven hells."

(AGoT 446) US 20th Anniversary Illustrated edition bold emphasis added

Which also tells us Ned's dream reflect the reality that Jaime killed Aerys, that Ser Gerold, Ser Arthur, and Ser Oswell where not in King's Landing when the sack took place, and it also reflects the actual sequence of events of the Battle of the Trident happening before the sack of King's Landing and the death of Aerys. It also correctly shows Ned's presence in the city when the sack was ongoing.

Quote

"I came down on Storm's End to lift the siege." Ned told them, "and the Lords Tyrell and Redwyne dipped their banners, and their knights bent the knee to pledge us fealty. I was certain you would be among them."

"Our knees don bend easily," said Ser Arthur Dayne.

(AGoT 446) US 20th Anniversary Illustrated edition bold emphasis added

This, again, shows the proper sequence of events, and shows the surrender of the besieging forces to Ned and his army. 

Quote

"Ser Willem Darry is fled to Dragonstone, with your queen and Prince Viserys. I thought you might have sailed with him."

"Ser Willem is a good man and true." said Ser Oswell.

"But not of the Kingsguard," Ser Gerold pointed out. "The Kingsguard does not flee."

"Then or now," said Ser Arthur. He donned his helm.

"We swore a vow," explained old Ser Gerold.

(AGoT 446) US 20th Anniversary Illustrated edition bold emphasis added

Martin's own comments also confirm the sequence of events laid out in Ned's dialogue with the Kingsguard:

Quote

The other possibility is that Mace Tyrell thought it a good idea if Mad King Aerys died, but would not take the chance of actively moving against him. Instead, he stayed put at Storm's End, still appearing for the world to be on Aerys' side, while silently hoping for his death. When Ned appeared, he dipped his banners quickly enough.

When Ned appeared, Aerys, Rhaegar, and Aegon were dead, and Viserys fled. There was no one left to fight for, and the war was clearly lost anyway. (bold emphasis added)

In this last question put to the Kingsguard by Lord Stark, we see the present situation on Dragonstone as of the events at the Tower of Joy duel, and  as a place of exile for Rhaella, Viserys, and Ser Willem Darry. It is important to note that the question and its answers do not reflect the existence of Daenerys, the death of Rhaella from complication of her birth, or the escape of Ser Willem, Viserys, and the infant Dany before the arrival of Stannis and his troops to Dragonstone. the dialogue doesn't show these events of the following year and show a sequence we know to fit reality.

We can add to this the supporting evidence of Lady Dustin's remarks of Ned returning the horse Lord Dustin rides to the Tower of Joy in Ned's dream along with her remarks on where Lord Dustin was buried, Stannis's account of his taking of Dragonstone and missing the capture of Ser Willem, Viserys, and Dany, and many others.

Ned's dream conversation conforms in all the ways we can verify concerning the sequence of events, and what actually happened in those events from the Battle of the Trident to the reality of the post Storm's End surrender of loyalist forces. If anyone wants the citations in the text to confirm this, I will be happy to provide them, but every knowledgeable reader of the story should know this is the case.

This does not mean all the elements of Ned's dream do conform to reality. It is fairly certain that none of Ned's companions were wraiths when the duel takes place. It is very likely the skies over the Tower of Joy are not streaked with blood or a storm of blue rose petals upon Lyanna's screams of "Eddard!" And it is likely the hyperrealism Ned's recollection of the Kingsguard is indeed a function of his dream's focus on the three men.

But all of this, refutes the idea we can dismiss Ned's dream as nothing but fantasy. It is a dream that demonstrably demonstrates its fidelity to reality in detail after detail. So, if we try to dismiss elements of the dream, such as the presence of Lyanna at the Tower, and her death there, we run smack into the problem of how it is true in so many of the verifiable details. This then is the framework that any evaluation of the dream must take place.

It is also the antithesis of the approach posters are taking in making up ideas of Lyanna dying in Starfall. Here we find no, literally no, evidence to support such a claim. It is all based on "what ifs."

 

So, what we have is a dream that has evidence it is a reflection of reality in at least these ways:

  1. Location
  2. the duel that takes place there
  3. the name and number of the duel's participants
  4. the deaths and burials of the eight men who did not survive the duel
  5. the identity of the two who do survive
  6. the sequence of time in which these events take place relative to the Trident, King's Landing, Storm's End, the Flight to Dragonstone, and Ned's travel to Starfall to return Dawn.
  7. Lyanna's scream as part of the duel
  8. Lyanna's death as the ending of the dream
  9. All of it in the framework of Ned's explicit tying of "Lyanna in her bed of blood" to the location and events at the Tower of Joy.

This is NOT just a fevered dream. This is NOT just a product of Ned's trauma from Jaime's ambush and his ordered killing of Jory and the others.

In fact, this dream, is a critical key to the readers understanding of the story. It should draw the reader's attention to the reasons behind the duel in the motivations of the Kingsguard, and in Ned's arrival with only six of his most trusted bannermen at his side, when he could have just as easily rode there with two hundred of his finest mounted warriors? What is the cause of Lyanna's death? All of these type of questions get lost when we make up stories unconnected to the one Martin is telling.

@SerTarod, I hope this helps to answer your question. If not please let me know, and I will try to further explain the evidence as I see it.

Edited by SFDanny
Link to comment
Share on other sites

14 hours ago, Megorova said:

Why? WHY? Whyyyyyyy? Why the heck do you think that if Lyanna died not at the Tower of Joy, then she died after the fight with KG? It could be the opposite.

Just responding to what others have posited.
If Ned already has found Lyanna, what is he doing with his friends in Dorne. There is nothing there for him any more. He should have returned to Winterfell already. Why is he bothering to fight the KG? 
Your scenario makes no sense either.

13 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

The connection is what Ned would have retrieved from the tower of joy and the sacrifices he made to retrieve it along with the promise that Lyanna elicited from Ned.  This is the connection, the promise had to do with what Ned retrieved from the tower.

Nope. This is not the dream about "the thing he retrieved from the tower and the sacrifices made to get it". 
This is the dream about Lyanna in her bed of blood.

I've heard this 'argument' before. Its doesn't even have enough substance to be called hollow.

13 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

The travel time between the battle at the tower of joy and Starfall (if indeed that is where Lyanna lay) is meaningless to Ned, his dream just directs him to the high points (low points?) of those events.

I've explained why that utterly fails for me. There is a massive emotional 'event' right there and then - his friends dying. There is no way that 'event' gets 'overshadowed' by another event widely separated in time and space. For this dream to be about something bigger than 'my five friends dying' then the thing needs to be directly and immediately  connected to the 3KiWC and aTLF. Otherwise this is the dream about his friends dying (with the 3KiWC and aTLF) and that other dream is about Lyanna in her bed of blood.

7 hours ago, alienarea said:

Don't be rude, ok?

Rude how?

7 hours ago, alienarea said:

We disagree, which is fine by me.

And by me.

7 hours ago, alienarea said:

I do not need to invent servants and a wetnurse (none of whom are mentioned in the books) in my interpretation.

Actually, you do. You haven't, but you need to. One at least. "They' found Ned holding Lyanna. I'm not 'inventing', I'm fulfilling exactly the requirements of the text.
Servants are speculatve. A wetnurse in particular is speculative but almost certain. And certain by the next known point. But someone, is not speculative, its certain. Wherever Lyanna died, someone other than Ned and Howland Reed was present. Other things place that death at the ToJ. And nothing, absolutely no thing (except bad reading comprehension), precludes the presence of someone else at the ToJ than Ned and Howland. 
 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 hours ago, alienarea said:

I do not need to invent servants and a wetnurse (none of whom are mentioned in the books) in my interpretation.

Actually a wet nurse is mentioned in the books. Her name is Wylla. She is said to be Jon Snow's mother by some, and she works as a wet nurse for House Dayne. The follow up questions are when does she get to Starfall, and from whence did she come, and in whose company did she arrive. The fact that some think she is Jon's mother could be because she shows up breast feeding him as a infant child. No invention necessary. Many gaps in knowledge to be filled in, however.

Edited by SFDanny
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, corbon said:

Just responding to what others have posited.
If Ned already has found Lyanna, what is he doing with his friends in Dorne. There is nothing there for him any more. He should have returned to Winterfell already. Why is he bothering to fight the KG? 
Your scenario makes no sense either.

Nope. This is not the dream about "the thing he retrieved from the tower and the sacrifices made to get it". 
This is the dream about Lyanna in her bed of blood.

I've heard this 'argument' before. Its doesn't even have enough substance to be called hollow.

I've explained why that utterly fails for me. There is a massive emotional 'event' right there and then - his friends dying. There is no way that 'event' gets 'overshadowed' by another event widely separated in time and space. For this dream to be about something bigger than 'my five friends dying' then the thing needs to be directly and immediately  connected to the 3KiWC and aTLF. Otherwise this is the dream about his friends dying (with the 3KiWC and aTLF) and that other dream is about Lyanna in her bed of blood.

Rude how?

And by me.

Actually, you do. You haven't, but you need to. One at least. "They' found Ned holding Lyanna. I'm not 'inventing', I'm fulfilling exactly the requirements of the text.
Servants are speculatve. A wetnurse in particular is speculative but almost certain. And certain by the next known point. But someone, is not speculative, its certain. Wherever Lyanna died, someone other than Ned and Howland Reed was present. Other things place that death at the ToJ. And nothing, absolutely no thing (except bad reading comprehension), precludes the presence of someone else at the ToJ than Ned and Howland. 
 

The bs was unnecessary. 

In case Lyanna did not die at the ToJ, They could be anyone. 

If it's an old dream, i.e. recurring, Ned should have remembered the names of the servants or the wetnurse, at least one of them?

After the sack of  KL Ned first lifts the siege at Storm's End, before heading for Dorne.

Interpretation: he does not know where Lyanna is, she is perhaps presumed dead, or he knows she's in a safe place and he doesn't need to hurry.

After Storm's End he heads for Dorne, with his closest friends. Did he learn about Lyanna at SE?

...

I hope GRRM clarifies these events one day.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, corbon said:

If Ned already has found Lyanna, what is he doing with his friends in Dorne. There is nothing there for him any more. He should have returned to Winterfell already. Why is he bothering to fight the KG? 

He had to kill them, because they knew the truth about Jon. If Jon was with them at the Tower, and they were intending to reveal to people of 7K that Robert can't be chosen as the King, because the rightful King is Rhaegar's son - Jon. And that would have endangered Jon's life. Also if those KG saw Jon as their King, then they would have refused to give him to Ned. They wouldn't have agreed to do what Ned wanted - to take Jon and pretend that he is Ned's bastard. KG would have never agreed for their King to be hiden like that, instead of being publicly announced, given to his Targaryen relatives, crowned, etc. Because if that would have happened, then Robert definitely would have targeted not only Rhaella, Viserys and Dany, but also Jon and Ned too. Though, even if KG didn't took Jon with them, when they departed from Starfall (where Jon was born), they still knew the secret R+L=J, thus Ned couldn't have let them go. Thus, before Lyanna died, she made him promise to - 1. either to get Jon back, in case if KG took him with them to the Tower, or 2. if Jon was with Lyanna at Starfall, and 3KG departed towards the Tower without Jon, then Lyanna asked Ned to get rid of those three people, because they knew about R+L, and that endangered Jon's life.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 hours ago, corbon said:

Nope. This is not the dream about "the thing he retrieved from the tower and the sacrifices made to get it". 
This is the dream about Lyanna in her bed of blood.

It's a dream about both.  Because one of the promises that Lyanna elicits from Ned concerns what Ned retrieved from the tower.

9 hours ago, corbon said:

I've explained why that utterly fails for me. There is a massive emotional 'event' right there and then - his friends dying. There is no way that 'event' gets 'overshadowed' by another event widely separated in time and space. For this dream to be about something bigger than 'my five friends dying' then the thing needs to be directly and immediately  connected to the 3KiWC and aTLF. Otherwise this is the dream about his friends dying (with the 3KiWC and aTLF) and that other dream is about Lyanna in her bed of blood.

My argument is that Ned retrieved Jon from the tower of joy.  Ned then travels to Starfall to return Jon to Lyanna.  Lyanna in her death bed forces Ned to promise something about Jon.  This dream is not about Ned's friends, this is about Jon and any promise that Lyanna elicited from Ned about Jon.  Ned continues to be haunted by this dream up through his time in the black cells, where he dreamed of blood and broken promises.

My take away is that Ned made a promise to Lyanna about Jon, a promise that he broke.

Edited by Frey family reunion
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Frey family reunion said:

 

My take away is that Ned made a promise to Lyanna about Jon, a promise that he broke.

 

And yet Ned thinks he kept his promises to Lyanna.

Quote

That was his curse. Robert would swear undying love and forget them before evenfall, but Ned Stark kept his vows. He thought of the promises he'd made Lyanna as she lay dying and the price he'd paid to keep them.

(AGoT 401) US 20th Anniversary Illustrated edition. Bold emphasis added

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

14 hours ago, alienarea said:

The bs was unnecessary. 

You directly lied about what has been said. The bullshit was earned. 

14 hours ago, alienarea said:

If it's an old dream, i.e. recurring, Ned should have remembered the names of the servants or the wetnurse, at least one of them?

There is no necessity for that.
More importantly, it never got that far in the dream.

14 hours ago, alienarea said:

After the sack of  KL Ned first lifts the siege at Storm's End, before heading for Dorne.

Interpretation: he does not know where Lyanna is, she is perhaps presumed dead, or he knows she's in a safe place and he doesn't need to hurry.

Agreed. Or its a responsibility he has and/or its more or less on the way anyway. But I think it likely he didn't know at that stage.

14 hours ago, alienarea said:

After Storm's End he heads for Dorne, with his closest friends. Did he learn about Lyanna at SE?

Seems likely, but not certain. After he left KL at least, IMO.

14 hours ago, alienarea said:

I hope GRRM clarifies these events one day.

Agreed.

8 hours ago, Megorova said:

He had to kill them, because they knew the truth about Jon.

That doesn't really fit with the dialogue. Ned speaks as though he's still not clear why they are here and weren't in all those other places. There is an unspoken question running through his dialogue in the dream. If he has Jon and has already found Lyanna and knows what they did and why, then his dialogue is nonsense.

8 hours ago, Megorova said:

If Jon was with them at the Tower, and they were intending to reveal to people of 7K that Robert can't be chosen as the King, because the rightful King is Rhaegar's son - Jon.

Thats also nonsense. Viserys being alive can't stop Robert being King, so neither could Jon being Rhaegar's son.

6 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

It's a dream about both.  Because one of the promises that Lyanna elicits from Ned concerns what Ned retrieved from the tower.

No, No adding or inventing things. Its a dream about "Lyanna in her bed of blood", not "the promises he'd made to Lyanna in her bed of blood". 

6 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

My argument is that Ned retrieved Jon from the tower of joy.  Ned then travels to Starfall to return Jon to Lyanna.  Lyanna in her death bed forces Ned to promise something about Jon.  This dream is not about Ned's friends, this is about Jon and any promise that Lyanna elicited from Ned about Jon.  Ned continues to be haunted by this dream up through his time in the black cells, where he dreamed of blood and broken promises.

My take away is that Ned made a promise to Lyanna about Jon, a promise that he broke.

As @SFDanny points out, Ned disagrees with you.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 minutes ago, corbon said:

You directly lied about what has been said. The bullshit was earned. 

There is no necessity for that.
More importantly, it never got that far in the dream.

Agreed. Or its a responsibility he has and/or its more or less on the way anyway. But I think it likely he didn't know at that stage.

Seems likely, but not certain. After he left KL at least, IMO.

Agreed.

That doesn't really fit with the dialogue. Ned speaks as though he's still not clear why they are here and weren't in all those other places. There is an unspoken question running through his dialogue in the dream. If he has Jon and has already found Lyanna and knows what they did and why, then his dialogue is nonsense.

Thats also nonsense. Viserys being alive can't stop Robert being King, so neither could Jon being Rhaegar's son.

No, No adding or inventing things. Its a dream about "Lyanna in her bed of blood", not "the promises he'd made to Lyanna in her bed of blood". 

As @SFDanny points out, Ned disagrees with you.

I did not lie.

Now you crossed the line.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The "broken promises" in Eddard XV may be mundane and have nothing to do with Jon. They could simply be referring to a broken promise from Littlefinger:

Quote

For the sake of the love I bear for Catelyn, I will go to Janos Slynt this very hour and make certain that the City Watch is yours.

or promises Ned made to Barra's mother and now couldn't keep:

Quote

“I will tell him, child, and I promise you, Barra shall not go wanting.”

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, alienarea said:

I did not lie.

Now you crossed the line.

 

On 9/1/2020 at 3:38 AM, alienarea said:

And no explanation for sending back Lyanna's bones while burying your friends.

Thats a lie. Multiple explanations have been given multiple times. By me and others.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

20 hours ago, SFDanny said:

And yet Ned thinks he kept his promises to Lyanna.

 

14 hours ago, corbon said:

As @SFDanny points out, Ned disagrees with you.

And yet it seems very clear, that Ned's subconscious disagrees with him.

Quote

When he slept, he dreamed: dark disturbing dreams of blood and broken promises.

Quote

Ned Stark reached out his hand to grasp the flowery crown, but beneath the pale blue petals the thorns lay hidden. He felt them clawing at his skin, sharp and cruel, saw the slow trickle of blood run down his fingers, and woke, trembling, in the dark.
Promise me, Ned, his sister had whispered from her bed of blood. She had loved the scent of winter roses.
“Gods save me,” Ned wept. “I am going mad.”
The gods did not deign to answer.

One is not haunted in his dreams about promises fulfilled.

Edited by Frey family reunion
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Frey family reunion said:

When he slept, he dreamed: dark disturbing dreams of blood and broken promises.

Where now does this reference Lyanna, or the promises Ned made to her? I'm fairly certain Ned has made promises to more people than Lyanna, and I'm fairly certain more people than Ned have broken promises. Some likely they made to him. Although this particular reference doesn't say who made the promise and who broke it, anymore does it explain if the "disturbing dreams of blood" are actually about a broken promise.

Now, if I were a betting man, which I seldom do beside an occasional lottery ticket, I'd bet this has something to do with the context we find Ned in when he has these dreams. We can't be certain, but I would guess the broken promise of Littlefinger and his betrayal that led to the bloody deaths of most of Lord's Starks men right before his eyes, and then  puts Ned in the Black Cells making him unable to protect his children all weighs heavily on his thoughts. But that just is my guess. An educated and in context guess, but a guess nonetheless. What isn't a guess is that we don't have any evidence that point to this as showing any doubt that Ned kept his promises he made to Lyanna as she lay dying.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

16 hours ago, lehutin said:

The "broken promises" in Eddard XV may be mundane and have nothing to do with Jon. They could simply be referring to a broken promise from Littlefinger:

or promises Ned made to Barra's mother and now couldn't keep:

Not to mention that he had to violate his oath to his best friend Robert almost immediately following his accession to the kingship, in order to keep his promises to Lyanna, and to keep Jon's identity a secret for the past fifteen years.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

 Share

×
×
  • Create New...