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R + L = J v.167


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7 hours ago, SFDanny said:

Where now does this reference Lyanna, or the promises Ned made to her? I'm fairly certain Ned has made promises to more people than Lyanna, and I'm fairly certain more people than Ned have broken promises. Some likely they made to him. Although this particular reference doesn't say who made the promise and who broke it, anymore does it explain if the "disturbing dreams of blood" are actually about a broken promise.

Now, if I were a betting man, which I seldom do beside an occasional lottery ticket, I'd bet this has something to do with the context we find Ned in when he has these dreams. We can't be certain, but I would guess the broken promise of Littlefinger and his betrayal that led to the bloody deaths of most of Lord's Starks men right before his eyes, and then  puts Ned in the Black Cells making him unable to protect his children all weighs heavily on his thoughts. But that just is my guess. An educated and in context guess, but a guess nonetheless. What isn't a guess is that we don't have any evidence that point to this as showing any doubt that Ned kept his promises he made to Lyanna as she lay dying.

You can certainly argue that Ned's disturbing dreams of blood and broken promises don't deal with Lyanna.  I don't think it's a good argument, but it's certainly a defensible one.

The reason I think it does have to do with Lyanna, is we are given a descrption of a disturbing dream shortly thereafter highlighting Ned cutting himself on the hidden thornes in Lyanna's wintery crown drawing blood.  Eddard then awakes and immediately thinks of the promise that Lyanna exorted from Ned.

However, I don't think you can legitimately seperate Ned's dream of blood from his dreams of broken promises.  I dont' think that's a legitimate reading of that passage.  

Something about the promise he made to Lyanna is haunting Ned, and it's haunting him when other matters of greater significance should be taking precedence.  Ned himself doesn't seem to understand why he's having these dreams and fears he is going mad.

Edited by Frey family reunion
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15 hours ago, alienarea said:

The Cambridge Dictionary about explanation:

the details or reasons that someone gives to make something clear or easy to understand

Your disagreement with the reasons offered has nothing to do with their clarity or ease of understanding. They were offere, they are not complicated or difficult to understand.
Get over it. I'm done with this little side conversation. Better things to do for both of us. 

28 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

You can certainly argue that Ned's disturbing dreams of blood and broken promises don't deal with Lyanna.  I don't think it's a good argument, but it's certainly a defensible one.

Given Ned explicitly tells us that he kept his promises to Lyanna, its your position thats not exactly defensible here. If he kept the promises to Lyanna, then its clearly other promises, whether by him or by others, that are the broken ones that trouble him.

28 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

The reason I think it does have to do with Lyanna, is we are given a descrption of a disturbing dream shortly thereafter highlighting Ned cutting himself on the hidden thornes in Lyanna's wintery crown drawing blood.  Eddard then awakes and immediately thinks of the promise that Lyanna exorted from Ned.

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Robert had been jesting with Jon and old Lord Hunter as the prince circled the field after unhorsing Ser Barristan in the final tilt to claim the champion's crown. Ned remembered the moment when all the smiles died, when Prince Rhaegar Targaryen urged his horse past his own wife, the Dornish princess Elia Martell, to lay the queen of beauty's laurel in Lyanna's lap. He could see it still: a crown of winter roses, blue as frost.
Ned Stark reached out his hand to grasp the flowery crown, but beneath the pale blue petals the thorns lay hidden. He felt them clawing at his skin, sharp and cruel, saw the slow trickle of blood run down his fingers, and woke, trembling, in the dark.
Promise me, Ned, his sister had whispered from her bed of blood. She had loved the scent of winter roses.
"Gods save me," Ned wept. "I am going mad."
The gods did not deign to answer.
Each time the turnkey brought him water, he told himself another day had passed. 

His dream is about Lyanna. Its her crown. He thinks of the promises he =made her when he wakes, not the 'bloody promises'. In this case the two ideas, blood and promises, are separate things.

While it might feel nice to link them, its implicitly counter-indicated when Ned tells us he kept his promises to Lyanna.

28 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

However, I don't think you can legitimately seperate Ned's dream of blood from his dreams of broken promises.  I dont' think that's a legitimate reading of that passage.  

But there are no broken promises mentioned in this passage.
Ned can have other dreams of blood that are linked to broken promises. He doesn't link this one to broken promises and he tells us that he kept his promises to Lyanna. So we shouldn't link this dream to broken promises.

28 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

Something about the promise he made to Lyanna is haunting Ned, and it's haunting him when other matters of greater significance should be taking precedence.  Ned himself doesn't seem to understand why he's having these dreams and fears he is going mad.

I think there are fairly obvious connections there - to the promises he kept to Lyanna, and to at least one promise the current situation means he will obviously break, to Jon (who is likely the subject of one of his promises to Lyanna). 

 

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16 hours ago, corbon said:

 

Given Ned explicitly tells us that he kept his promises to Lyanna, its your position thats not exactly defensible here. If he kept the promises to Lyanna, then its clearly other promises, whether by him or by others, that are the broken ones that trouble him.

His dream is about Lyanna. Its her crown. He thinks of the promises he =made her when he wakes, not the 'bloody promises'. In this case the two ideas, blood and promises, are separate things.

While it might feel nice to link them, its implicitly counter-indicated when Ned tells us he kept his promises to Lyanna.

But there are no broken promises mentioned in this passage.
Ned can have other dreams of blood that are linked to broken promises. He doesn't link this one to broken promises and he tells us that he kept his promises to Lyanna. So we shouldn't link this dream to broken promises.

I think there are fairly obvious connections there - to the promises he kept to Lyanna, and to at least one promise the current situation means he will obviously break, to Jon (who is likely the subject of one of his promises to Lyanna). 

 

I understand your argument, I just think it falls flat.  His dreams did include Robert and Littlefinger, but ultimately disturbing dreams of blood and broken promises?  That’s his dream of the Lyanna and the winter crown.  

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He slept and woke and slept again. He did not know which was more painful, the waking or the sleeping. When he slept, he dreamed: dark disturbing dreams of blood and broken promises.

A disturbing dream involving Ned is later echoed by Bran:

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The mention of dreams reminded him. “I dreamed about the crow again last night. The one with three eyes. He flew into my bedchamber and told me to come with him, so I did. We went down to the crypts. Father was there, and we talked. He was sad.”

“And why was that?” Luwin peered through his tube.

“It was something to do about Jon, I think.” The dream had been deeply disturbing, more so than any of the other crow dreams.

It’s clear that Ned is haunted by a promise he gave Lyanna on her death bed, a promise involving Jon.  “Promise me Ned” isn’t echoed throughout the story because Ned is reminded of his promise to keep Jon safe from Robert.  Because even after Robert’s death Ned continues to be haunted by that promise.

And speaking of Robert, Robert’s death is a reminder that Ned may not always be truthful when he promises to do something for a dying loved one.

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“Robert …” Joffrey is not your son, he wanted to say, but the words would not come. The agony was written too plainly across Robert’s face; he could not hurt him more. So Ned bent his head and wrote, but where the king had said “my son Joffrey,” he scrawled “my heir” instead. The deceit made him feel soiled. The lies we tell for love, he thought. May the gods forgive me.

Now compare that to Ned’s last dream of Lyanna:

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He could see it still: a crown of winter roses, blue as frost.

Ned Stark reached out his hand to grasp the flowery crown, but beneath the pale blue petals the thorns lay hidden. He felt them clawing at his skin, sharp and cruel, saw the slow trickle of blood run down his fingers, and woke, trembling, in the dark.

Promise me, Ned, his sister had whispered from her bed of blood. She had loved the scent of winter roses. “Gods save me,” Ned wept. “I am going mad.” The gods did not deign to answer.

Lyanna elicited a promise from Ned that Ned could not do.  And like son like father, Ned has suppressed an unpleasant truth.

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17 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

You can certainly argue that Ned's disturbing dreams of blood and broken promises don't deal with Lyanna.  I don't think it's a good argument, but it's certainly a defensible one.

Given the fact I've provided a quote that directly contradicts your claim, and you have nothing that backs your conclusion, I think my argument is a rather solid one. Defensible as well. On that much we agree.

17 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

The reason I think it does have to do with Lyanna, is we are given a descrption of a disturbing dream shortly thereafter highlighting Ned cutting himself on the hidden thornes in Lyanna's wintery crown drawing blood.  Eddard then awakes and immediately thinks of the promise that Lyanna exorted from Ned.

Post hoc ergo propter hoc?

Please don't mistake me here. Time sequence is important in most things. It shows context, or at least can show context, but if we make the mistake of believing that one event following the other means causality, then we fall into a fallacy.

Which is why I stated my theory of the cause of Ned's dream here in the form of a guess. The context of Littlefinger's betrayal and broken promises to Ned and Catelyn combined with the massacre in the Throne Room is certainly an important part of the context of Ned's situation when he has the dream in question. I recognize that does not prove causality any more than your theory does.

The problem with your theory is simply this: We know that on the day of Jaime's ambush of Ned and his men, that Ned quite clearly states he kept his promises to Lyanna that he made to her as she lay dying. If we accept that as fact, then we have to ask ourselves what has changed between that day and the one in which this new dream takes place that would have meant that one or more of those promises was broken?

If we think one of the promises made to Lyanna was to bury her in the crypts of Winterfell alongside Rickard and Brandon, then nothing has changed to mean that promise is now broken. Nor is it in serious jeopardy of being broken.

Nor has Jon's situation appreciably changed between the ambush and this dream. So, I think we can rule out that Ned thinks he failed Lyanna in the situation he left Jon as of the day of the ambush.

However, I would concede that the death of Robert, and the triumph of the Lannisters, has seriously changed Ned's ability to continue to protect Jon, as well as all the other living members of his family. But then we are not talking about broken promises in the past tense. We are talking about a fear for the future that may mean Ned is unable to continue keeping his promises to Lyanna or anyone else.

17 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

However, I don't think you can legitimately seperate Ned's dream of blood from his dreams of broken promises.  I dont' think that's a legitimate reading of that passage. 

Which I didn't do. I suggested in my guess that both the mention of broken promises, and of blood, stem from the same event - the massacre in the Throne Room. In which both blood and broken promises are prominently involved.

17 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

Something about the promise he made to Lyanna is haunting Ned, and it's haunting him when other matters of greater significance should be taking precedence.  Ned himself doesn't seem to understand why he's having these dreams and fears he is going mad.

I don't dispute that Ned is haunted in his dreams about the promises he made to his dying sister. The dream of the encounter at the Tower of Joy is proof of that. I just don't think this particular reference to broken promises and blood has anything to do with Lyanna's deathbed pleas to Ned for him to promise her something.

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40 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

I understand your argument, I just think it falls flat.  His dreams did include Robert and Littlefinger, but ultimately disturbing dreams of blood and broken promises?  That’s his dream of the Lyanna and the winter crown.  

A disturbing dream involving Ned is later echoed by Bran:

It’s clear that Ned is haunted by a promise he gave Lyanna on her death bed, a promise involving Jon.  “Promise me Ned” isn’t echoed throughout the story because Ned is reminded of his promise to keep Jon safe from Robert.  Because even after Robert’s death Ned continues to be haunted by that promise.

And speaking of Robert, Robert’s death is a reminder that Ned may not always be truthful when he promises to do something for a dying loved one.

Now compare that to Ned’s last dream of Lyanna:

Lyanna elicited a promise from Ned that Ned could not do.  And like son like father, Ned has suppressed an unpleasant truth.

Ned promised Robert that he would look after his children, and indeed he intended to look after his bastards, and even to let his legal children escape danger. But he obviously had no intention of carrying out Robert's wishes as he expressed them.

Ned has kept Jon safe from the people around Robert that would kill him in a heartbeat if they knew his paternal identity. But I absolutely expect to find out that Ned did not carry out the full extent of Lyanna's wishes as she expressed them.

I highly doubt that Lyanna wanted Ned to raised Jon as his own son forever, and never tell him about her.

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1 hour ago, SFDanny said:

Given the fact I've provided a quote that directly contradicts your claim, and you have nothing that backs your conclusion, I think my argument is a rather solid one. Defensible as well. On that much we agree.

Post hoc ergo propter hoc?

Please don't mistake me here. Time sequence is important in most things. It shows context, or at least can show context, but if we make the mistake of believing that one event following the other means causality, then we fall into a fallacy.

Which is why I stated my theory of the cause of Ned's dream here in the form of a guess. The context of Littlefinger's betrayal and broken promises to Ned and Catelyn combined with the massacre in the Throne Room is certainly an important part of the context of Ned's situation when he has the dream in question. I recognize that does not prove causality any more than your theory does.

The problem with your theory is simply this: We know that on the day of Jaime's ambush of Ned and his men, that Ned quite clearly states he kept his promises to Lyanna that he made to her as she lay dying. If we accept that as fact, then we have to ask ourselves what has changed between that day and the one in which this new dream takes place that would have meant that one or more of those promises was broken?

If we think one of the promises made to Lyanna was to bury her in the crypts of Winterfell alongside Rickard and Brandon, then nothing has changed to mean that promise is now broken. Nor is it in serious jeopardy of being broken.

Nor has Jon's situation appreciably changed between the ambush and this dream. So, I think we can rule out that Ned thinks he failed Lyanna in the situation he left Jon as of the day of the ambush.

However, I would concede that the death of Robert, and the triumph of the Lannisters, has seriously changed Ned's ability to continue to protect Jon, as well as all the other living members of his family. But then we are not talking about broken promises in the past tense. We are talking about a fear for the future that may mean Ned is unable to continue keeping his promises to Lyanna or anyone else.

Which I didn't do. I suggested in my guess that both the mention of broken promises, and of blood, stem from the same event - the massacre in the Throne Room. In which both blood and broken promises are prominently involved.

I don't dispute that Ned is haunted in his dreams about the promises he made to his dying sister. The dream of the encounter at the Tower of Joy is proof of that. I just don't think this particular reference to broken promises and blood has anything to do with Lyanna's deathbed pleas to Ned for him to promise her something.

Your argument certainly makes a logical sense, but it also falls flat.  Every dream involving blood and promises Ned has had throughout the book involved Lyanna.  Ned references a dream of blood and broken promises, a disturbing dream, and we are then made privy to a disturbing dream involving blood where Ned wakes up and immediately thinks of Lyanna forcing Ned to promise her something.

You would have to believe that now this reference to a disturbing dream of blood and promises (albeit broken ones) now references another event, one that we are not made privy to.

Then we have to couple it with the idea that Ned is still being haunted by something that Lyanna made him promise to her.  It’s not keeping Jon safe from Robert, because, well mission accomplished there.

Now we would have to believe that Ned is haunted by his inability to protect Jon because he’s in jail?  Surely no one believed that Ned was going to nurse maid Jon his entire life.  And out of all of Ned’s “children” Jon is certainly in the safest position at the time of Ned’s imprisonment.  While Jon is tucked away at the Wall, Ned has one daughter in the hands of the Lannisters and one daughter missing.  War is becoming imminent between the Lannisters and the Starks, a war which would undoubtably involve his son Robb.  Jon by virtue of his role with the Night’s Watch shouldn’t be in any danger of that.

The only takeaway is that the reason Ned is haunted by a promise he made to Lyanna, is that he made a promise to Lyanna that he did not keep.  Perhaps his guilt is such that it survived his death and made its way into Bran’s dreams as well.

It’s also worth considering that Ned’s sense of guilt about a promise he made to Lyanna is tied in with Winterfell.  I think Ned subconsciously believes that he has angered his ancestors.  The only question is has he angered them about a promise he kept to Lyanna or a promise he broke?

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He was walking through the crypts beneath Winterfell, as he had walked a thousand times before. The Kings of Winter watched him pass with eyes of ice, and the direwolves at their feet turned their great stone heads and snarled. Last of all, he came to the tomb where his father slept, with Brandon and Lyanna beside him. “Promise me, Ned,” Lyanna’s statue whispered. She wore a garland of pale blue roses, and her eyes wept blood.

 

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21 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

Your argument certainly makes a logical sense, but it also falls flat.

Well, I'm glad you think it makes logical sense, because that was what I was trying to communicate. But henceforth I will try to make my arguments with a greater sense of élan, style, and panache in order to avoid that "falls flat" feeling you reference. I'm hoping words like "henceforth," "élan," and "panache" help in that regard. Let me know if they do.

21 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

Every dream involving blood and promises Ned has had throughout the book involved Lyanna.

I understand your assertion that is so, but asserting it as fact does not make it so. Here we are talking about a particular dream while Ned is in the black cells, and there is no reference in the dream to Lyanna. You make the leap it is about Lyanna, and I do not. I think there is a different possible source, or sources, for this dream's connection fo "broken promises" and "blood" than to Lyanna. In fact the reference to "broken promises" I've shown to be in contradiction to what we know of the promises Ned made to Lyanna on her deathbed.

Ned Stark led a very bloody life. Blood shed in the rebellion by his siblings, Father, friends, bannermen, and many others. That Ned might have dreams of blood related to something or someone else than Lyanna would not be surprising in the least. Or shouldn't be. Even the much mentioned dream of the events at the Tower of Joy involves more people shedding their life's blood than Lyanna. I would expect the deaths of the men betrayed by Littlefinger in the Throne Room of the Red Keep would be a cause for haunting memories and dreams for Lord Stark. It was his trust in the broken promises of Petyr Baelish around the loyalty of the City Watch that caused those deaths, and which puts Ned in the Black Cells.

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"I called you here to ask for the help you promised Catelyn." (AGoT 540) bold emphasis added

This is the scene in which Littlefinger tells Ned he will secure the loyalty of the City Watch.

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Littlefinger laughed. "I ought to  make you say it, but that would be cruel ... so have no fear, my good lord. For the sake of the love I bear for Catelyn, I will go to Janos Slynt this very hour and make certain that the City Watch is yours. Six thousand gold pieces should do it. A third for the Commander, a third for the officers, a third for the men. We might be able to buy them for half that much, but I prefer not to take chances." (AGoT 540) 

One could call that a promise by Littlefinger to Ned. And then we have the scene in the Throne Room itself.

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Behind the throne, twenty Lannister guardsmen waited with longswords hanging from their belts. Crimson cloaks draped their shoulders and steel lions crested their helms. But Littlefinger had kept his promise; all along the walls, in front of Robert's tapestries with their scenes of hunt and battle, the gold cloaked ranks of the City Watch stood stiffly to attention, each man's hand clasped around the haft of an eight-foot long spear tipped in black iron. (AGoT 557) 

We then witness the betrayal and subsequent murder of Ned's men. First, Tomard, then Varly, and then Cayn. As the others are killed Littlefinger holds Ned's dagger under his chin and says, 

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"I did warn you not to trust me, you know." (AGoT 558) 

I would say that shows the elements of both "broken promises" and "blood."

When you cite the reference Ned makes of his dreams of broken promises and blood you fail to provide a link with Lyanna. Indeed there is no reference to her in those dreams.

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"When he slept, he dreamed: dark disturbing dreams of blood and broken promises." (AGoT 660) 

No Lyanna mentioned in relation to those dreams.

Days, maybe weeks, later Ned has a dream in the Black Cells that does reference Lyanna and blood, but not any broken promises.

21 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

You would have to believe that now this reference to a disturbing dream of blood and promises (albeit broken ones) now references another event, one that we are not made privy to.

Actually I would suggest, as I did above, that it is about events that are plainly laid out in the books, not some hidden reasons outside the knowledge of the readers.

21 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

Then we have to couple it with the idea that Ned is still being haunted by something that Lyanna made him promise to her.  It’s not keeping Jon safe from Robert, because, well mission accomplished there.

I think I've already stated as much. We agree this is not the likely cause of the broken promises Ned alludes to.

21 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

Now we would have to believe that Ned is haunted by his inability to protect Jon because he’s in jail?  Surely no one believed that Ned was going to nurse maid Jon his entire life.  And out of all of Ned’s “children” Jon is certainly in the safest position at the time of Ned’s imprisonment.  While Jon is tucked away at the Wall, Ned has one daughter in the hands of the Lannisters and one daughter missing.  War is becoming imminent between the Lannisters and the Starks, a war which would undoubtably involve his son Robb.  Jon by virtue of his role with the Night’s Watch shouldn’t be in any danger of that.

Again we agree this is a unlikely source of Ned's dreams of broken promises. Ned is disturbed in his cell when thinking of Jon, but it doesn't seem to be about promises already broken. Ned would like to talk to Jon and tell him something, and that is a possible source of future broken promises if he is unable to do so. But not ones already broken.

21 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

The only takeaway is that the reason Ned is haunted by a promise he made to Lyanna, is that he made a promise to Lyanna that he did not keep.

It is absolutely NOT the "only takeaway." I've given you a entirely plausible explanation and there are others as well. Others that have nothing to do with Ned's promises to Lyanna.

21 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

Perhaps his guilt is such that it survived his death and made its way into Bran’s dreams as well.

It’s also worth considering that Ned’s sense of guilt about a promise he made to Lyanna is tied in with Winterfell.  I think Ned subconsciously believes that he has angered his ancestors.  The only question is has he angered them about a promise he kept to Lyanna or a promise he broke?

Let me know when you come up with any evidence that suggests Ned broke his promises he made to Lyanna as she lay dying.

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On 8/30/2020 at 12:25 PM, Frey family reunion said:

guess my main issue with using the app or even the SSM as evidence of events that have no been addressed in the books is that it seems to go against the fundamental nature of George’s story.  There is no omniscient narrator.

I think the SSMs are valid as direct statements from the series author. 

He can always change his mind, of course... and he is generally evasive and can be misleading... but I don't believe he ever lies.

So when he says things like "Rhaegar was cremated" I believe him.  I have no reason to doubt his supreme authority.

Re the app... as I said before, that is a companion piece to the World book and the information Martin supplied for the app was part of the World book's larger framework.  He supplied new information for the app based on the same logic. We also know from the 2014 interview that Martin went far out of his way to caution against taking that new information as gospel. 

He did this for a perfectly obvious reason that he himself explicitly pointed out: the World book was written from the POV of two maesters whose knowledge of their subject matter is always secondhand, never primary.  

Yandel is just repeating what other people think (often what other maesters think).  The World book's companion app's new info, supplied by Martin at the same time, is no more authoritative than the World book itself.

So for instance when the app says Rhaegar died with Lyanna's name on his lips, we should only interpret that to mean there are people who think that happened not that it is an objective fact. 

    I'm sure we can all see how hard it would be for Rhaegar to say very much at all... given, per Ned, who was actually there,

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On his breastplate was the three-headed dragon of his House, wrought all in rubies that flashed like fire in the sunlight. The waters of the Trident ran red around the hooves of their destriers as they circled and clashed, again and again, until at last a crushing blow from Robert's hammer stove in the dragon and the chest beneath it.

Furthermore, there is evidence right in the canon that secondhand stories, unlike Ned's account above, are unreliable and often wrong.  Here is an obvious example from very early in AGOT:

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Yet sometimes Dany would picture the way it had been, so often had her brother told her the stories. The midnight flight to Dragonstone, moonlight shimmering on the ship's black sails. Her brother Rhaegar battling the Usurper in the bloody waters of the Trident and dying for the woman he loved. The sack of King's Landing by the ones Viserys called the Usurper's dogs, the lords Lannister and Stark.

Here the source is Viserys... who was not there.  Since he wasn't there, he doesn't know that the boldfaced is total bullshit.  Ned Stark simply was not there and had no role to play in the Sack.

But Dany has heard the false story that way, and she appears to believe it.  We shouldn't -- Ned is a far superior authority here, just as he is on the circumstances of Rhaegar's death compared to the app.

Are the other stories Viserys told also bullshit?  For instance, did Rhaegar "die for the woman he loved?"  We can analyze and speculate, but the larger lesson is that secondhand accounts should not be trusted.

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22 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

Your argument certainly makes a logical sense, but it also falls flat.

I think so too, though I couldn't be as certain as you are.

All through AGOT Ned is obsessed with promises made to Lyanna.  It is possible that at the end of his life he suddenly dreams of promises Littlefinger made to him, but on balance, I doubt it.  

In terms of this particular hypothetical broken promise to Lyanna, we know this from earlier in the book:

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Ned Stark kept his vows. He thought of the promises he'd made Lyanna as she lay dying, and the price he'd paid to keep them. 

So at that time, I think he had always kept his promises.  If he dreams later of a broken promise to Lyanna, it's because he has broken one since the above (which when he met Robert's bastard Barra).

It's not too hard to guess what that might be, but of course it's only a guess.  Forget Ned for a minute and turn your thinking to Bran...

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The mention of dreams reminded him. "I dreamed about the crow again last night. The one with three eyes. He flew into my bedchamber and told me to come with him, so I did. We went down to the crypts. Father was there, and we talked. He was sad."

"And why was that?" Luwin peered through his tube.

"It was something to do about Jon, I think." The dream had been deeply disturbing, more so than any of the other crow dreams. "Hodor won't go down into the crypts."

We later learn Rickon had the same dream, though Luwin is skeptical it means anything:

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"This is folly," the small grey man said while she dabbed at the wolf bites with a stinging ointment. "I agree that it is odd that both you boys dreamed the same dream, yet when you stop to consider it, it's only natural. You miss your lord father, and you know that he is a captive. Fear can fever a man's mind and give him queer thoughts.

But we know better than Luwin.  We have excellent reason to believe the 3EC is a true and very powerful entity, and that in this dream where Bran and Rickon are both shown Ned is dead, Ned is really dead... as Luwin himself very soon learns.

Well, if we accept the validity of the dream for these reasons, we should also consider that at the time he died, Ned may indeed have been "sad" because of "something to do with Jon."

Is it possible Ned promised Lyanna something involving Jon, that he would never (thanks to developments) be able to fulfill?  Such as telling Jon the truth about his parents?    It seems both possible and plausible to me.   But as to the truth, we will have to wait and see.

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23 hours ago, HugorHell said:

Here the source is Viserys... who was not there.  Since he wasn't there, he doesn't know that the boldfaced is total bullshit.  Ned Stark simply was not there and had no role to play in the Sack.

Ned was absolutely there during the sack of King's Landing. He confronts Jaime in the Red Keep as he sits upon the Iron Throne during the sack. Ned's troops come late to the sack, but they, and he, are there while it is still ongoing. So, no, not total bullshit. That the Targaryens don't make much of any differentiation between the Lannister's and the Stark's role in the sack is a important nuance in the reader's eyes, but not so much in the eyes of loyalists. Both armies were in the city and involved in the overthrow of Targaryen rule. It's not surprising that in Viserys's view they are both responsible for Aerys's death. Why should it matter to loyalists what the command structure was during the sack as long as they both were there, they both were responsible. After all, who ends up controlling the Iron Throne on that day? Stark troops do, with Ned Stark leading their way into that seat of royal power. Jaime surrenders it to them without a struggle.

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On 9/5/2020 at 7:25 AM, HugorHell said:

We can analyze and speculate, but the larger lesson is that secondhand accounts should not be trusted.

I would disagree. I think the larger lesson is that all perspectives and all accounts of events should be evaluated for strengths, weaknesses, and bias.

What Martin has done in the very structure of his novels is to give us different perspectives to view reality. If you have ever had the pleasure of seeing the classic film Rashōmon by Akira Kurosawa then you have a guide as to how to handle what is "true" and is to be "trusted."

So, for instance, when we read Ned's innermost thoughts we should note that, unless Ned is delusional, those thoughts reflect his point of view of reality. Not reality itself. It is for the reader to judge what his bias does to how reality is interpreted.

Yes, second hand accounts lack the perspective of someone who was on the scene. That does not mean they have no value. When we read Viserys's point of view, as told through the filter of Daenerys's memories, we need to note that Viserys was not present at the Trident, for instance, but it is very important to also note that he is likely to have been told his stories by other Targaryen partisans, including Rhaella and Ser Willem, who may well have reason to know things Viserys doesn't . The bias is important, but the stories are as well. If nothing else, Viserys's stories to his sister tell us what is likely the loyalist's view of history. Given that we get the rebel's view of history through almost everyone else's point of view it is extremely important not to just dismiss what Viserys says.

So, yes, Viserys doesn't show a knowledge of the differences between Ned Stark and Tywin Lannister on the day of the sack of King's Landing, but his view, as told through Daenerys's perspective, of Rhaegar "dying for the woman he loved" tells important information that we don't get from all the rebel view points. The Targaryen story speaks of love, not of rape, brutality, and abduction in Rhaegar's motives and actions toward Lyanna. We would be foolish to dismiss that view for bias, just to accept the other biased viewpoints as told by Robert, Ned, and others. The lesson, it seems to me, is to evaluate all the evidence as distorted by perspective to some degree, and not assume bias from only one point of view.

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On 9/5/2020 at 3:22 AM, SFDanny said:

Well, I'm glad you think it makes logical sense, because that was what I was trying to communicate. But henceforth I will try to make my arguments with a greater sense of élan, style, and panache in order to avoid that "falls flat" feeling you reference. I'm hoping words like "henceforth," "élan," and "panache" help in that regard. Let me know if they do.

I really wish you would.  Especially panache.

But seriously, that’s not the real reason it falls flat for me, as I think you know.  @HugorHell put it well.  Ned was obsessed with the promise Lyanna elicited from him.  It echoed in his dreams and in his memories.  References to promises and blood means only one thing for Ned.  For the same reason that a bloody bed or a bed of blood falls flat for you if trying to reference something other than childbirth, a dream of blood and promises falls flat for me if they mean something other than Lyanna.

On 9/5/2020 at 9:38 AM, HugorHell said:

So at that time, I think he had always kept his promises.  If he dreams later of a broken promise to Lyanna, it's because he has broken one since the above (which when he met Robert's bastard Barra).

It's not too hard to guess what that might be, but of course it's only a guess

That could be the reason.  And it could be the Ned never got around to fulfilling all his promises to Lyanna.  And perhaps that explains his guilt.  I suppose.  But you would think that once Ned allowed Jon to join the Night’s Watch without enlightening Jon, a promise may have been broken at that moment.  

However, I’m also open to the possibility that like Bran, Ned may have suppressed a traumatic event.  We know that at when Lyanna died, after Ned made his promise, Ned could not remember what happened afterwards. Perhaps every time Lyanna’s promise starts to echo in Ned’s thoughts it’s Ned’s subconscious bubbling up.

Edited by Frey family reunion
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Ned's promises to Lyanna:

  1. Protect Jon by raising him as his own child and keeping his parentage secret.
  2. Tell Jon his true parentage when he grows mature enough to grasp it safely.

Ned thought about broken promises only when he was thrown to the black cells. Ned was thinking that he would never go out of the black cells alive when he thought about the broken promises. Varys had not come with his offer of taking the black yet. That is one of the reasons why Ned accepted Varys' offer to take the black because he was going to see Jon and fulfil his promise to Lyanna by telling Jon who his actual parents were. This point is further emphasized by the following quote from the same chapter:

Quote

“I want you to serve the realm,” Varys said. “Tell the queen that you will confess your vile treason, command your son to lay down his sword, and proclaim Joffrey as the true heir. Offer to denounce Stannis and Renly as faithless usurpers. Our green-eyed lioness knows you are a man of honor. If you will give her the peace she needs and the time to deal with Stannis, and pledge to carry her secret to your grave, I believe she will allow you to take the black and live out the rest of your days on the Wall, with your brother and that baseborn son of yours.”

The thought of Jon filled Ned with a sense of shame, and a sorrow too deep for words. If only he could see the boy again, sit and talk with him…pain shot through his broken leg, beneath the filthy grey plaster of his cast. He winced, his fingers opening and closing helplessly.

Therefore, when Ned was executed unexpectedly, his promise to Lyanna was broken. However, I think Ned's ghost will fulfil the promise in that crypt dream which Jon will finally complete till the end.

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1 hour ago, Mithras said:

Ned's promises to Lyanna:

  1. Protect Jon by raising him as his own child and keeping his parentage secret.
  2. Tell Jon his true parentage when he grows mature enough to grasp it safely.

Ned thought about broken promises only when he was thrown to the black cells. Ned was thinking that he would never go out of the black cells alive when he thought about the broken promises.

Maybe.  But isn't it pretty shitty that Ned lets him join the Night's Watch without first smartening him up as to his parents?  

After all, if Jon was mature enough to join the Night's Watch then he should have been mature enough to have handled who his parents were.

I guess that could explain the guilt that Ned seems to feel.  That he let him join the Night's Watch without truly knowing all of the facts involved.

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Ned would never want to go to war against Robert over Jon's claim. If he were to do such a thing, he would have done that while Jon was a baby.

And Jon wasn't mature enough to join the Night's Watch. That is the first thing in his story. He thought the Night's Watch was honorable and valiant knights wearing black, not the sweepings of the Realm.

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20 hours ago, Mithras said:

Ned would never want to go to war against Robert over Jon's claim. If he were to do such a thing, he would have done that while Jon was a baby.

That would make no sense, actually. There have been no infant kings in Westeros so far, nor did any child claimaints have any chance at the two Great Councils, never mind the strength of their blood claims. Nobody would press the claim of a newborn infant at the end of the Rebellion.

The chances that Jon Snow may have become sort of Daemon Blackfyre to Robert's Daeron II isn't that bad if the boy had been told who he was and if he had had the time and opportunity to befriend and charm the lords of the North and their heirs. For Ned it would have been a hard choice to decide between his buddy Robert and his nephew, but for Robb this wouldn't have been a hard choice.

A Jon knowing who he was could also have pushed Ned/Robb to side with his uncle Viserys III should he ever make an attempt to take the throne.

There is a certainly the chance that Ned stole Jon's identity to ensure that the boy doesn't cause political problems for him and his children and the North in general in the future.

On 9/8/2020 at 9:21 PM, Frey family reunion said:

Maybe.  But isn't it pretty shitty that Ned lets him join the Night's Watch without first smartening him up as to his parents?  

After all, if Jon was mature enough to join the Night's Watch then he should have been mature enough to have handled who his parents were.

I guess that could explain the guilt that Ned seems to feel.  That he let him join the Night's Watch without truly knowing all of the facts involved.

That is definitely an issue there. And Ned doesn't just give Jon the choice to take the black, he makes the decision for him after learning from third parties that the boy had expressed the wish to take the black in a drunken mood ... like a drunken child wanting to go to boarding school and then waking up that his parents had decided his wish was granted without ever talking to him. Which isn't the way one wants to be send to boarding school, no? Because it is quite clear that the decision that Jon has to leave Winterfell for the Wall was made when Ned, Cat, and Luwin talked things through, not when Ned later talked to Jon.

As for the promises Ned broke - if those are promises he made to Lya: We don't know what Lyanna exactly wanted from him. Could have been her wanting that Jon know who he was, could be that she even wanted for him to join his kin in exile, could be she expected Ned to avenge her and Rhaegar and turn against Robert.

Keeping Jon's identity from the boy must be a betrayal, though. To figure that out we don't even have to turn to dreams and memories but simply to the reaction of the Reeds when they tell Bran their Harrenhal story. They are surprised that Bran doesn't know that story, indicating that their father was much more forthcoming in this regard. I'd go as far as assume that Meera and Jojen know all that Howland Reed knows about Jon Snow ... and that they originally expected/assumed that Bran and his siblings would know as much about that as they know (although they may have realized this wasn't the case after they realized that Ned never told Bran the story about the mystery knight).

I also expect this whole issue to become a real problem for Jon Snow and his feelings towards his foster father/uncle. Being born a royal prince and then being dumped at the Wall and being tricked to say the words by means of keeping crucial information about his own identity and parentage from him is a very insidious thing to do.

In fact, one can parallel this kind of thing to Jaime's Tysha lie.

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15 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

That is definitely an issue there. And Ned doesn't just give Jon the choice to take the black, he makes the decision for him after learning from third parties that the boy had expressed the wish to take the black in a drunken mood ... like a drunken child wanting to go to boarding school and then waking up that his parents had decided his wish was granted without ever talking to him. Which isn't the way one wants to be send to boarding school, no? Because it is quite clear that the decision that Jon has to leave Winterfell for the Wall was made when Ned, Cat, and Luwin talked things through, not when Ned later talked to Jon.

If Lyanna wanted Ned to tell Jon at some point who his true parents were, then Ned letting Jon join the Night’s Watch before he had a chance to tell Jon this is certainly a betrayal of trust.  And maybe that explains part of the guilt that Ned feels as he lay in the black cells.  It might give a double meaning to what Benjen tells Jon when they talk about the Night’s Watch:

Quote

“You don’t know what you’re asking, Jon. The Night’s Watch is a sworn brotherhood. We have no families. None of us will ever father sons.”

Quote

“You are a boy of fourteen,” Benjen said. “Not a man, not yet. Until you have known a woman, you cannot understand what you would be giving up.”
“I don’t care about that!” Jon said hotly.
“You might, if you knew what it meant,” Benjen said. “If you knew what the oath would cost you, you might be less eager to pay the price, son.”

Now Benjen knows full well that the many of the brothers of the Night’s Watch do engage in sex.  They even have their own brothel.  And odds are many have probably fathered sons, albeit illegitimate  ones.  (As Benjen even suggests that Jon do before he makes his choice).

But they can’t have a family.  

Now Benjen’s advice is true whether or not Jon is Ned’s son.  But it is especially true if Jon has a lineage he is unaware of.  Jon would certainly be wanting something without a true understanding of what he is asking for and possibly what he is giving up.

So I do wonder if Benjen knows the truth of Jon’s parents, and that explains why Benjen seems to regret his offer to Jon to join the Night’s Watch.

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1 hour ago, Frey family reunion said:

If Lyanna wanted Ned to tell Jon at some point who his true parents were, then Ned letting Jon join the Night’s Watch before he had a chance to tell Jon this is certainly a betrayal of trust.  And maybe that explains part of the guilt that Ned feels as he lay in the black cells.

There is certainly potential for guilt there, also in never telling Catelyn the truth. That would have gnawed away at Ned, too.

But in relation to Lya we just don't know what she wanted for her child. Perhaps branding her child a bastard was already a betrayal of trust. One imagines that Lya's core wish would have been that her brother take care of her child, protect it, perhaps even raise it as the boy was his own son ... but I kind of doubt she wanted her child to be seen and treated as a motherless bastard.

There is a kind of cowardice and ugliness in this 'solution' to the problem.

1 hour ago, Frey family reunion said:

It might give a double meaning to what Benjen tells Jon when they talk about the Night’s Watch:

Now Benjen knows full well that the many of the brothers of the Night’s Watch do engage in sex.  They even have their own brothel.  And odds are many have probably fathered sons, albeit illegitimate  ones.  (As Benjen even suggests that Jon do before he makes his choice).

But they can’t have a family.  

Now Benjen’s advice is true whether or not Jon is Ned’s son.  But it is especially true if Jon has a lineage he is unaware of.  Jon would certainly be wanting something without a true understanding of what he is asking for and possibly what he is giving up.

So I do wonder if Benjen knows the truth of Jon’s parents, and that explains why Benjen seems to regret his offer to Jon to join the Night’s Watch.

Actually, I started to think that Benjen's talk about fathering bastards may be a hint that is the father of Ashara's stillborn daughter if it isn't Ned or Brandon. After all, his talk there implies Benjen also didn't take the black before he had some fun in his life.

That said, Ben's talk relating to Jon's wish is completely clumsy and stupid if he knows about Jon's true parentage and actually wants to dissuade him from taking the black before he knows the truth. After all, he is also the one who later informs Luwin and not Ned about his interaction with Jon. And he does not tell Jon, for instance, to only make such a decision after he has asked Ned about his mother, say.

One has to keep in mind that with Jon being this motherless bastard him not knowing about the other side of his family closed down the option of searching out and living with them - something Jon could also have done or tried to do after no longer being welcome in Winterfell. If truly Ashara Dayne or some other noblewoman were Jon's mother then he could have searched out his mother's family, hoping to find service with them.

Not to mention that Ben made no attempt whatsoever to tell Jon the truth about his parentage on their way to the Wall or during the brief time they spent together at Castle Black - something that would also have to viewed as mean behavior if he actually knew things.

Ben may have known about Rhaegar and Lya back at Harrenhal, having also been privy to Lya's training-at-arms. We can expect her to have gone to Ben to prepare her for the mystery knight thing. If Rhaegar found Lya by ways of Benjen Stark chances are not that bad that he knew more about their relationship there than Ned and Brandon.

Later on he wasn't in the thick of things, being stuck at Winterfell, meaning he could have had no clue who the child was Ned eventually brought back.

I'd also not be surprised if it turned out that Lya's death was what triggered Ben's ultimate decision to take the black (we know he got inspired at Harrenhal, but he seems to have remained at Winterfell until after the war was over). He was closer to his sister than Ned ever was, it seems, and I'd not be surprised if he was not exactly pleased with how the war turned out. He may have preferred it if Lya and Rhaegar had been allowed to be together.

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9 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

There is a kind of cowardice and ugliness in this 'solution' to the problem.

Assuming that Ned is not Jon's father, it was a real betrayel of Jon for Ned to let him join the Night's Watch without letting him know the truth of his parents.  

If Ned had reason to believe that Jon was not illigitimate, it is really unconscionable.  Especially when Luwin brings up the fact that a bastard can go far in the Night's Watch.  It's so unconscionable that I don't think that Ned thought Jon could be legitimate.  

But regardless, you're right.  There is a tremendous amount of cowardice in this solution to Ned's "Jon" problem.  I know GRRM needed to give Ned a motivation to let Jon join the Night's Watch.  But realistically, Ned should have been able to put his foot down with Cat.  As Lord of Winterfell he has the authority to demand that Jon would remain in Winterfell.  Cat may be able to make Jon's life miserable, but only to a point.  

My personal thought is that there are only two realistic possibilities as to Jon's father.  It's either Rhaegar or it's Brandon.  Those are the two fathers that would cause Eddard to keep Jon's true identity from everyone, including Cat.  (If Brandon was Jon's father than especially Cat).

Both possibilities make Jon's existence a serious problem for Eddard.  Obviously Jon being Rhaegar's son would cause a split between Robert and Eddard.  While Jon being Brandon's son would cause the problems between Cat and Jon to only grow in magnitude.  

Both possibilities also makes Eddard's decision to let Jon take a Night's Watch Oath a fairly selfish one.  If Rhaegar is the father it looks like Ned is protecting his friend's hold on the throne.  If Brandon is Jon's father, it makes it look like Ned is protecting his claim and his children's claim to Winterfell over his older brother's.

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3 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

 If Ned had reason to believe that Jon was not illigitimate, it is really unconscionable.  Especially when Luwin brings up the fact that a bastard can go far in the Night's Watch.  It's so unconscionable that I don't think that Ned thought Jon could be legitimate.  

Oh, I certainly think he could. After all, on the political level House Stark profits from Jon Snow not knowing who he is ... because that ensures that there will never be a conflict of interest within the house. Ned or Robb or Robb's son will never have to choose between Jon's Targaryen family and Ned's Baratheon buddies. Jon himself will never have to choose whether he would side with Viserys III or his foster father and King Robert, etc.

That way everybody profits ... but Jon Snow, of course. And that certainly could be part of the reason why Ned feels guilty.

Also, a Jon as a Targaryen prince close to Ned's family could certainly end up as a pretender himself ... if one day Ned himself or Robb had too many issues with Robert or Joffrey.

I mean, we can rather easily imagine the war council in AGoT proclaiming a Targaryen pretender king in Jon Snow rather than a King Robb if they had known/learned that the half-brother of their young lord in their midst was actually the last surviving son of Rhaegar Targaryen.

3 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

But regardless, you're right.  There is a tremendous amount of cowardice in this solution to Ned's "Jon" problem.  I know GRRM needed to give Ned a motivation to let Jon join the Night's Watch.  But realistically, Ned should have been able to put his foot down with Cat.  As Lord of Winterfell he has the authority to demand that Jon would remain in Winterfell.  Cat may be able to make Jon's life miserable, but only to a point.  

Of course, early AGoT is very badly written in the motivational department. Jon has no proper reason for taking the black, Ned no good reason to drag Sansa and Arya to court, etc.

I guess George has some idea for that talk Ned and Jon had where he was told that he would go to the Wall, adding some more depth to all that - it is rather noteworthy that this talk was never referenced/remembered by either Ned or Jon in later chapters - but so far this whole thing doesn't make much sense.

Ned could have sent Jon as a ward to any of his bannermen, and as Hand he could have likely even found some other house to foster him.

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