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R + L = J v.167


Ygrain
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On 9/8/2020 at 12:21 PM, Frey family reunion said:

Maybe.  But isn't it pretty shitty that Ned lets him join the Night's Watch without first smartening him up as to his parents?

After all, if Jon was mature enough to join the Night's Watch then he should have been mature enough to have handled who his parents were.

I guess that could explain the guilt that Ned seems to feel.  That he let him join the Night's Watch without truly knowing all of the facts involved.

Perhaps, but we don't even know if it was the plan to allow Jon to actually take the vows. Ned needed to get Jon out of Winterfell and away from the antagonism with Catelyn, and to someone he trusted as far away as he can from King's Landing. Being at the Wall with Benjen might just have been a temporary solution. Such a interpretation would mean Benjen is in on the plan. Unfortunately, Benjen goes missing, and Ned doesn't find out about until Yoren arrives in King's Landing. 

Or Ned just placed Jon's safety over any ephemeral claims he might have had to the Iron Throne. Doesn't mean he wouldn't have told Jon before he joins the Night's Watch, but just that he doesn't have any belief that there is a chance Jon could ever sit the Iron Throne. His promise most likely was to just keep him safe at all cost. 

Something we will have to wait and see if it is ever answered. One reason I think we just might see Benjen again.

 

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8 hours ago, SFDanny said:

Perhaps, but we don't even know if it was the plan to allow Jon to actually take the vows. Ned needed to get Jon out of Winterfell and away from the antagonism with Catelyn, and to someone he trusted as far away as he can from King's Landing. Being at the Wall with Benjen might just have been a temporary solution. Such a interpretation would mean Benjen is in on the plan. Unfortunately, Benjen goes missing, and Ned doesn't find out about until Yoren arrives in King's Landing. 

Or Ned just placed Jon's safety over any ephemeral claims he might have had to the Iron Throne. Doesn't mean he wouldn't have told Jon before he joins the Night's Watch, but just that he doesn't have any belief that there is a chance Jon could ever sit the Iron Throne. His promise most likely was to just keep him safe at all cost. 

Something we will have to wait and see if it is ever answered. One reason I think we just might see Benjen again.

 

I suppose it's possible, although we really have nothing to support it yet.  And I'm not sure that Benjen would go along with such a plan, because it seems that would be a fraud perpetrated on the Watch, something I don't think Benjen would approve of.  I'm also not sure Eddard would treat the Night's Watch so cavalierly either.  

One thing did occur to me though.  If Ned was being plagued by dreams of blood and broken promises, and felt shame and sadness over Jon, then it might be that Ned was regretting his decision to let Jon take the black without telling him about his parents first.

If so, then that might explain the letter he gave Varys to send.  It's very doubtful that Ned would have revealed Jon's parentage in the letter, but it's very possible that the letter was intended for Mormont, asking Mormont not to let Jon take his vows.

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13 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

I suppose it's possible, although we really have nothing to support it yet.  And I'm not sure that Benjen would go along with such a plan, because it seems that would be a fraud perpetrated on the Watch, something I don't think Benjen would approve of.  I'm also not sure Eddard would treat the Night's Watch so cavalierly either.  

One thing did occur to me though.  If Ned was being plagued by dreams of blood and broken promises, and felt shame and sadness over Jon, then it might be that Ned was regretting his decision to let Jon take the black without telling him about his parents first.

If so, then that might explain the letter he gave Varys to send.  It's very doubtful that Ned would have revealed Jon's parentage in the letter, but it's very possible that the letter was intended for Mormont, asking Mormont not to let Jon take his vows.

You're right that most of this is pure speculation, and as such we shouldn't put to much stock in believing one way or another. One thing we do know is that Yoren left the Wall long before Jon takes his vows. So he can't be the source of any news to Ned that Jon is a member of the Night's Watch. I don't think we have any evidence that Ned knows that fact before he dies. Which would make it extremely unlikely that his regret is because he knows he should have told him something before Jon takes his vows.

Perhaps, his knowledge that Benjen is not there to stop Jon from doing so is a factor. I'd say his regrets around Jon most likely have to do with not having an opportunity to tell Jon who his mother was, and not knowing if Benjen will ever return to tell Jon in his stead. Again, the latter is based on my guess that Benjen knows that secret. That would be a reason to write a letter to Jon, but obviously the information in it might not be something he would want Varys to read. That's especially true if Rhaegar and Lyanna are Jon's parents. Perhaps a message for Jon to seek out Howland Reed? Another guess. We obviously need more evidence here.

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9 hours ago, SFDanny said:

One thing we do know is that Yoren left the Wall long before Jon takes his vows. So he can't be the source of any news to Ned that Jon is a member of the Night's Watch. I don't think we have any evidence that Ned knows that fact before he dies. Which would make it extremely unlikely that his regret is because he knows he should have told him something before Jon takes his vows.

I was thinking that Jon had not yet taken his vows when Ned was in the black cells, but I was thinking of the time that Mormont made Jon retake his vows after Jon attempted to leave the NW.

I suppose it’s still possible that Jon had not taken his vows yet, since the chronology of the chapters don’t always match up, but it looks like he probably had.  I guess like you said we don’t have any reason to believe that Ned knew that while in the cell.

 

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13 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

but I was thinking of the time that Mormont made Jon retake his vows after Jon attempted to leave the NW.

When did that happen? 

Now I'm in dire need of a re-read. 

And I thought 3 were enough. What do you know? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ 

(sigh) 

Edited by TheLastWolf
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36 minutes ago, TheLastWolf said:

When did that happen? 

Now I'm in dire need of a re-read. 

And I thought 3 were enough. What do you know? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ 

(sigh) 

Ah, my memory is sucking lately.  Jon’s friends recite their oath and Jon then swears to Mormont that he will be his man and not run again.

Edited by Frey family reunion
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1 hour ago, Frey family reunion said:

Ah, my memory is sucking lately.  Jon’s friends recite their oath and Jon then swears to Mormont that he will be his man and not run again.

Phew!!! (deep sigh) My memory is not the so rusty one after all. ATB to your reread (you may need it) 

Edited by TheLastWolf
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On 9/10/2020 at 7:42 AM, Frey family reunion said:

If Lyanna wanted Ned to tell Jon at some point who his true parents were, then Ned letting Jon join the Night’s Watch before he had a chance to tell Jon this is certainly a betrayal of trust

Why? 

At that time, Ned had no reason to think he'd be dying inside the year, or that Jon joining the Watch was a death sentence for Jon.  The Watch at that time was full of seasoned men with many years' experience.

And the Stark in Winterfell (never mind the Hand of the King) could communicate with a member of the Watch, such as Jon, at any point in the future suitable to his convenience.  There are many instances of that in canon, beginning with First Ranger Benjen visiting Winterfell.  

So I think the first instant Ned knew to a near certainty that he'd be breaking that promise to Lyanna... if indeed it was ever made... was when he was outmaneuvered by Cersei and thrown into a dark cell, and his life expectancy took a dramatic turn for the worse.  

At which time, we also find him dreaming of broken promises, among other things.

Which reminds me to point out something I'm not sure I've seen posted either here, or in any other discussion forum.

Isn't it interesting that nowhere in canon does anyone think about, or personally recall, Lyanna being awarded a crown made of winter roses at Harrenhal... except in dreams?

A crown she received, of that there is no doubt. We know this from eyewitness corroboration:

Quote

"But that was the tourney when he crowned Lyanna Stark as queen of love and beauty!" said Dany. "Princess Elia was there, his wife, and yet my brother gave the crown to the Stark girl, and later stole her away from her betrothed. How could he do that? Did the Dornish woman treat him so ill?"

"It is not for such as me to say what might have been in your brother's heart, Your Grace. The Princess Elia was a good and gracious lady, though her health was ever delicate."

But for the notion the crown was made of winter roses, we have only dreaming minds.  Not conscious minds.

Unless we count the World book as canon and factual, that is.  But that would mean disregarding the explicit warnings Martin gave us not to make that very mistake.

Edited by HugorHell
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11 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

Stay in your lane junior, no need to be a prick

Hey!! I wasn't being one.! If you misunderstood, it's my feelings that are hurt. And who wouldn't like a re-read? I need a reread, I accept it. One for you wouldn't harm you.

(sigh) Of late, a lot of my comments are misinterpreted.

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On 9/13/2020 at 12:05 PM, HugorHell said:

Isn't it interesting that nowhere in canon does anyone think about, or personally recall, Lyanna being awarded a crown made of winter roses at Harrenhal... except in dreams?

A crown she received, of that there is no doubt. We know this from eyewitness corroboration:

But for the notion the crown was made of winter roses, we have only dreaming minds.  Not conscious minds.

Unless we count the World book as canon and factual, that is.  But that would mean disregarding the explicit warnings Martin gave us not to make that very mistake.

 

Quote

 

Yet when the jousting began, the day belonged to Rhaegar Targaryen. The crown prince wore the armor he would die in: gleaming black plate with the three-headed dragon of his House wrought in rubies on the breast. A plume of scarlet silk streamed behind him when he rode, and it seemed no lance could touch him. Brandon fell to him, and Bronze Yohn Royce, and even the splendid Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning.
Robert had been jesting with Jon and old Lord Hunter as the prince circled the field after unhorsing Ser Barristan in the final tilt to claim the champion's crown. Ned remembered the moment when all the smiles died, when Prince Rhaegar Targaryen urged his horse past his own wife, the Dornish princess Elia Martell, to lay the queen of beauty's laurel in Lyanna's lap. He could see it still: a crown of winter roses, blue as frost.
Ned Stark reached out his hand to grasp the flowery crown, but beneath the pale blue petals the thorns lay hidden. He felt them clawing at his skin, sharp and cruel, saw the slow trickle of blood run down his fingers, and woke, trembling, in the dark.

Yes, its in a dream, but in the dream Ned remembers the moment...

Then we have Theon independently dreaming of a Lyanna whom he never met in what is clearly something of a 'sending' from the Stark spirits after he has taken Winterfell.

Quote
But there were others with faces he had never known in life, faces he had seen only in stone. The slim, sad girl who wore a crown of pale blue roses and a white gown spattered with gore could only be Lyanna. Her brother Brandon stood beside her, and their father Lord Rickard just behind. Along the walls figures half-seen moved through the shadows, pale shades with long grim faces. The sight of them sent fear shivering through Theon sharp as a knife. And then the tall doors opened with a crash, and a freezing gale blew down the hall, and Robb came walking out of the night. Grey Wind stalked beside, eyes burning, and man and wolf alike bled from half a hundred savage wounds.
Theon woke with a scream, startling Wex so badly that the boy ran naked from the room. 

Finally the worldbook - while not everything in it should be taken as 'fact' most readers are smart enough to understand that that doesn't mean nothing can be taken as fact.

Quote

And when the triumphant Prince of Dragonstone named Lyanna Stark, daughter of the Lord of Winterfell, the queen of love and beauty, placing a garland of blue roses in her lap with the tip of his lance, the lickspittle lords gathered around the king declared that further proof of his perfidy. 

The act described here is a simple statement of acts with plentiful witnesses. This is exactly the sort of thing we should take as fact. What we should not take as fact from the world book is speculative information about ancient civilisations, legends, and myths, and opinions of the meanings of things, or the motivations of people.
Such as this: 

Quote

The crowning of the Stark girl, who was by all reports a wild and boyish young thing with none of the Princess Elia's delicate beauty, could only have been meant to win the allegiance of Winterfell to Prince Rhaegar's cause, Symond Staunton suggested to the king.

Symond Staunton probably did suggest this to the king. But just because its reported in the World Book doesn't make it fact. Its still just the insinuations of one biased lickspittle. Perhaps.

 So we have a reported factual event with many witnesses. Supported by an eyewitness' memory, even though that memory is recalled within a dream. Further supported by a supernatural sending to someone who wasn't present.
There's a reason its not 'questioned'.
 

Edited by corbon
missed key 'not'
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  • 2 weeks later...

As much as I love this theory, it wouldn't make sense. D&D themselves said that the rest of the story was invented on their own and that they refrain from making spoilers, so it would be weird if Rhaegar WAS Jon's dad because the identity of his parents is one of the biggest mysteries, and I don't think that the writers would spoil it. It was semi-confirmed that Lyanna was the mom, since GRRM said that when they guessed the identity of the mother, they guessed correct, but I believe that in reality, Jon might actually be the son of Arthur Dayne and Lyanna. If any one wants to support this, say something.

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14 hours ago, JonSnow776 said:

As much as I love this theory, it wouldn't make sense. D&D themselves said that the rest of the story was invented on their own and that they refrain from making spoilers, so it would be weird if Rhaegar WAS Jon's dad because the identity of his parents is one of the biggest mysteries, and I don't think that the writers would spoil it. It was semi-confirmed that Lyanna was the mom, since GRRM said that when they guessed the identity of the mother, they guessed correct, but I believe that in reality, Jon might actually be the son of Arthur Dayne and Lyanna. If any one wants to support this, say something.

This is an interesting take.  D & D has stated that GRRM confimed to them that Lyanna was Jon's mother.  They have been less explicit on whether their reveal of Rhaegar as Jon's father was confirmed by George.  I think when their reveal of Rhaegar as Jon's dad came out, they stated that it might not actually be a spoiler for the books, if my increasingly spotty memory is accurate.

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On 9/13/2020 at 10:16 PM, corbon said:

Then we have Theon independently dreaming of a Lyanna whom he never met in what is clearly something of a 'sending' from the Stark spirits after he has taken Winterfell.

Maybe.  Even though clearly Theon heard the tale of Lyanna and the pale blue roses from growing up in Winterfell.

Now if Theon did receive this vision from the shades of deceased Starks, isn't it interesting that how much it seems like a wedding.  And where is Rhaegar?  Nowhere to be found.  

And the person standing next to her instead is her brother Brandon...

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18 hours ago, JonSnow776 said:

As much as I love this theory, it wouldn't make sense. D&D themselves said that the rest of the story was invented on their own and that they refrain from making spoilers, so it would be weird if Rhaegar WAS Jon's dad because the identity of his parents is one of the biggest mysteries, and I don't think that the writers would spoil it. It was semi-confirmed that Lyanna was the mom, since GRRM said that when they guessed the identity of the mother, they guessed correct, but I believe that in reality, Jon might actually be the son of Arthur Dayne and Lyanna. If any one wants to support this, say something.

Is there anything in the novels that indicates Arthur Dayne and Lyanna Stark had any attraction to each other? Is there any narrative value to Arthur Dayne fathering Jon Snow with Lyanna Stark? Do we really want ASOIAF to be the equivalent of a low-budget afternoon soap opera? "'Ned, I have a confession to make: the father of my son is...' TUNE IN TOMORROW FOR THE SHOCKING NEW EPISODE OF WINDS OF OUR WINTERS!"

 

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  • 1 month later...

So it's a fairly common assumption here that Lyanna went willingly with Rhaegar, but really why? Think about it for a second, we know that:

- everybody did consider it kidnapping. That is not conclusive in any way, but it does point out that rather then being smoke without fire there actually is something there

- Lyanna's biggest gripe was getting married to a unfaithful man that hardly knew her but proclaimed his love for her. So instead she runs off with an unfaithful man that hardly knew her but proclaimed his love for her. Really makes sense, to do the exact same thing, but with the added caveat of being stuck in the middle of nowhere and have the shame of bringing forward a bastard.

- Also to counter the inevitable argument that Rhaegar was just too nice a guy to kidnapp her, please remember that the guy was obsessed with prophecy, "The Prince that was promised of Fire and Ice". He would see Lyanna as the perfect conduit for the Fire and Ice part, so he would probably see kidnapping and raping her as duty or some such

- To add, somehow, after hearing that her brother and father have been killed, she still remained in the Tower. So she either refused to go home, or she was kept there by force. I wonder which is more likely?

- And lastly and more importantly, if she did go willingly, why didn't she leave, I dunno a message saying "Dad, brothers, I'm running off, fuck Robert"

So all in all, while there is no way to know for sure, it does seem more likely that Rhaegar actually did kidnapp and rape Lyanna, then the alternative.

Edited by Alyn Oakenfist
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I have trouble believing that lyanna would wait out the war whilst her kin are dead or dying. 

Whether he kidnapped her I really don’t know. We know so little that for me it’s a conflict whether she went willingly or was forced to. However when Lyanna heard of her brother and fathers death, I think rhaegar forced her to stay at the tower of joy. No way a girl like her would wait out the storm whilst her loved ones are dead.

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5 minutes ago, The Young Maester said:

I have trouble believing that lyanna would wait out the war whilst her kin are dead or dying. 

Whether he kidnapped her I really don’t know. We know so little that for me it’s a conflict whether she went willingly or was forced to. However when Lyanna heard of her brother and fathers death, I think rhaegar forced her to stay at the tower of joy. No way a girl like her would wait out the storm whilst her loved ones are dead.

Good point, hope you don't mind if I'll add it to the OP

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She told Benjen, who never told Rickard. 

That is why Ned had him sent to the wall, as retribution for his deception. 

GRRM did tell us Rhaegar was love struck by Lyanna: 

"The Kingdom was unified with dragons, so the Targaryen's flaw was to create an absolute monarchy highly dependent on them, with the small council not designed to be a real check and balance. So, without dragons it took a sneeze, a wildly incompetent and megalomaniac king, a love struck prince, a brutal civil war, a dissolute king that didn't really know what to do with the throne and then chaos." - George R.R. Martin 

So yes he cared about the prophecy, but it was not just that, Lyanna won him over in three cases at the tourney: When she protected Howland Reed, when she wept at the music, and (possibly) the KoTLT  

Elia knew all this, but she did not expect Rhaegar to hide away at the tower of joy (in Dorne of all places). 

Edited by butterweedstrover
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Well, I do think she ran away from Robert.  And I do think it's Robert who forced Lyanna in a drunken stupor.  And I think it's Robert who kicks off the story that Lyanna was kidnapped and raped hundreds of times by Rhaegar.  Robert dreams about killing Rhaegar over and over,  This is an obsessive recurring dream.  An unresolved issue.  Sometimes dreams are populated by people or characters who represent aspects of ourselves.   He forced her, she ran and someone hid her. He blames it on Rhaegar and tells himself this lie over and over again until he believes it.    

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