Alyn Oakenfist Posted November 8, 2020 Share Posted November 8, 2020 4 minutes ago, LynnS said: Well, I do think she ran away from Robert. And I do think it's Robert who forced Lyanna in a drunken stupor. And I think it's Robert who kicks off the story that Lyanna was kidnapped and raped hundreds of times by Rhaegar. Robert dreams about killing Rhaegar over and over, This is an obsessive recurring dream. An unresolved issue. Sometimes dreams are populated by people or characters who represent aspects of ourselves. He forced her, she ran and someone hid her. He blames it on Rhaegar and tells himself this lie over and over again until he believes it. This doesn't make sense on several counts. First off his most common dream isn't about the rape it's killing Rhaegar over and over again. Interpret that. Second off, Robert is many things, but rapist, cruel or insane aren't it. And third off it's just convoluted. Like how would Rhaegar have "hid her" when she was kidnapped either from the Riverlands or the North? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LynnS Posted November 8, 2020 Share Posted November 8, 2020 6 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said: GRRM did tell us Rhaegar was love struck by Lyanna: "The Kingdom was unified with dragons, so the Targaryen's flaw was to create an absolute monarchy highly dependent on them, with the small council not designed to be a real check and balance. So, without dragons it took a sneeze, a wildly incompetent and megalomaniac king, a love struck prince, a brutal civil war, a dissolute king that didn't really know what to do with the throne and then chaos." - George R.R. Martin So yes he cared about the prophecy, but it was not just that, Lyanna won him over in three cases at the tourney: When she protected Howland Reed, when she wept at the music, and (possibly) the KoTLT I'm going to give you an alternate interpretation. The love-struck prince isn't Rhaegar. Yes he sings a sad song to make the girls cry. I'm guessing it's Jenny's Song. Jenny with flowers in her hair. Jenny was said to be somewhat wild, not unlike descriptions of Lyanna. I think given the appearance of a mystery knight and the events at the tourney; that Rhaegar is making a comparison between Jenny and Lyanna when he give her the queen of beauty's laurel. Who does Jenny love? The prince of dragonflies who was once a mystery knight. Where do you find dragonflies? In bogs and swamps. I find it easier to believe the Howland is the lovestruck prince. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LynnS Posted November 8, 2020 Share Posted November 8, 2020 (edited) 11 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said: This doesn't make sense on several counts. First off his most common dream isn't about the rape it's killing Rhaegar over and over again. Interpret that. Second off, Robert is many things, but rapist, cruel or insane aren't it. And third off it's just convoluted. Like how would Rhaegar have "hid her" when she was kidnapped either from the Riverlands or the North? Yes he kills Rhaegar over and over again because he says he kidnapped and raped Lyanna. In dream theory people who show up in our dreams are aspects of ourselves and unresolved inner conflicts. Rhaegar is another aspect of Robert's psyche. The part of himself that he disowns. That part of himself that he can't face up to. That part that is represented by Rhaegar. It's easy for me to believe that he forced Lyanna in a drunken stupor. Robert doesn't just succumb to lust, he's also a lush. Edited November 8, 2020 by LynnS Julia H. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alyn Oakenfist Posted November 8, 2020 Share Posted November 8, 2020 Just now, LynnS said: Yes he kills Rhaegar over and over again because he says he kidnapped and raped Lyanna. In dream theory people who show up in our dreams are aspects of ourselves and unresolved inner conflicts. Rhaegar is another aspect of Robert's psyche. The part of himself that he disowns. That part of himself that he can't face up to. That part that is represented by Rhaegar. Very interesting. It couldn't possibly be Robert reliving the most important and emotional moment of his life over and over again, that's just silly. Obviously Robert is a rapist who kills a part of himself in his sleep every night and is jealous of Rhaegar for hiding Lyanna, even though in your theory there would be no reason for hiding. Yup, absolutely 100% makes sense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LynnS Posted November 8, 2020 Share Posted November 8, 2020 2 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said: Very interesting. It couldn't possibly be Robert reliving the most important and emotional moment of his life over and over again, that's just silly. Obviously Robert is a rapist who kills a part of himself in his sleep every night and is jealous of Rhaegar for hiding Lyanna, even though in your theory there would be no reason for hiding. Yup, absolutely 100% makes sense. No it's not silly. It's obsessive behavior. Obviously Robert is not a rapist. He has made a terrible mistake. How do we know that Rhaegar hid Lyanna, BTW? There is a lot of supposition and assumption, but there is very little to hang your hat on in the text. I'm not opposed to some lateral thinking and the use of imagination. People are entitled to their opinions even if I don't agree. But if you are going to be condescending, I will not comment on your threads anymore. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
butterweedstrover Posted November 8, 2020 Share Posted November 8, 2020 18 minutes ago, LynnS said: I'm going to give you an alternate interpretation. The love-struck prince isn't Rhaegar. Yes he sings a sad song to make the girls cry. I'm guessing it's Jenny's Song. Jenny with flowers in her hair. Jenny was said to be somewhat wild, not unlike descriptions of Lyanna. I think given the appearance of a mystery knight and the events at the tourney; that Rhaegar is making a comparison between Jenny and Lyanna when he give her the queen of beauty's laurel. Who does Jenny love? The prince of dragonflies who was once a mystery knight. Where do you find dragonflies? In bogs and swamps. I find it easier to believe the Howland is the lovestruck prince. In the quote he is talking about the Targaryen family during Robert's rebellion. The only other 'Prince' at this time were children. He is talking about Rhaegar. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alyn Oakenfist Posted November 8, 2020 Share Posted November 8, 2020 1 hour ago, butterweedstrover said: In the quote he is talking about the Targaryen family during Robert's rebellion. The only other 'Prince' at this time were children. He is talking about Rhaegar. Still doesn't say much. There are a lot of rapists out there convinced they're in love with their victims. Rhaegar being or thinking he is in love doesn't mean anything in regards to whether or not he kidnapped Lyanna. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Leftwich Posted November 8, 2020 Share Posted November 8, 2020 This should be in the pinned R+L=J topic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R2D Posted November 8, 2020 Share Posted November 8, 2020 2 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said: This doesn't make sense on several counts. First off his most common dream isn't about the rape it's killing Rhaegar over and over again. Interpret that. Second off, Robert is many things, but rapist, cruel or insane aren't it. And third off it's just convoluted. Like how would Rhaegar have "hid her" when she was kidnapped either from the Riverlands or the North? Robert is definitely a rapist. He raped Cersei. Ned thinks Lyanna met her end because of her "wolf's blood", because she was too headstrong and reckless. That would make more sense if she left of her own accord and not if she was kidnapped. Julia H. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alyn Oakenfist Posted November 8, 2020 Share Posted November 8, 2020 1 minute ago, R2D said: Robert is definitely a rapist. He raped Cersei. I forgot about that, sorry. Still I don't think he'd do it with Lyanna. He might have self-control problems but even he would know Ned would split his skull if he found out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Varys Posted November 9, 2020 Share Posted November 9, 2020 On 11/8/2020 at 3:47 PM, LynnS said: I'm going to give you an alternate interpretation. The love-struck prince isn't Rhaegar. Yes he sings a sad song to make the girls cry. I'm guessing it's Jenny's Song. Jenny with flowers in her hair. Jenny was said to be somewhat wild, not unlike descriptions of Lyanna. I think given the appearance of a mystery knight and the events at the tourney; that Rhaegar is making a comparison between Jenny and Lyanna when he give her the queen of beauty's laurel. Who does Jenny love? The prince of dragonflies who was once a mystery knight. Where do you find dragonflies? In bogs and swamps. I find it easier to believe the Howland is the lovestruck prince. That interpretation makes no sense considering George uses his examples there in chronological order. He starts with with a sneeze (death of Jaehaerys II), a wildly incompetent and megalomaniacal king (Aerys II), a lovstruck prince (Rhaegar), a brutal civil war (Robert's Rebellion), dissolute king that didn't really know what to do with the throne (Robert himself), and then chaos (everything that happened after Robert's death). Duncan Targaryen has no place in any of this ... not to mention that he wasn't less lovestruck than his brothers Jaehaerys and Daeron. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LynnS Posted November 9, 2020 Share Posted November 9, 2020 1 hour ago, Lord Varys said: Duncan Targaryen has no place in any of this ... not to mention that he wasn't less lovestruck than his brothers Jaehaerys and Daeron. With all due respect Lord Varys, I don't have the same assumptions about the events at the Tourney as people do on this thread. If Rhegar was lovestruck with anyone, I think that's likely to be Ashera Dayne. I think the only reason that Rhaegar gave Lyanna the crown was because; the true honor went to the Mystery Knight who was Lyanna's champion. No I don't beleive for one minute that Lyanna was the mystery knight. I think the song Rhaegar played to make the girls cry was Jenny's Song and Rhaegar was making a comparison between Jenny and Lyanna who loved their prince of dragonflies, a mystery knight. That is Howland Reed at this tourney. I don't discuss what I think about this or the ToJ on this thread any longer. The only reason my post showed up here was because the moderator deleted a thread on the general forum and moved the comments here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Varys Posted November 9, 2020 Share Posted November 9, 2020 Just now, LynnS said: With all due respect Lord Varys, I don't have the same assumptions about the events at the Tourney as people do on this thread. If Rhegar was lovestruck with anyone, I think that's likely to be Ashera Dayne. I think the only reason that Rhaegar gave Lyanna the crown was because; the true honor went to the Mystery Knight who was Lyanna's champion. No I don't beleive for one minute that Lyanna was the mystery knight. I think the song Rhaegar played to make the girls cry was Jenny's Song and Rhaegar was making a comparison between Jenny and Lyanna who loved their prince of dragonflies, a mystery knight. That is Howland Reed at this tourney. I don't discuss what I think about this or the ToJ on this thread any longer. The only reason my post showed up here was because the moderator deleted a thread on the general forum and moved the comments here. No problem, my point just was that your non-chronological interpretion of the quote by George you were reacting is not exactly in accordance with it. You would have to give a reasoned argument as to why you think the series of Jaehaerys-Aerys-Rhaegar-Rebellion-Robert-war should swap Rhaegar for Duncan. At least if you want to convince anybody to seriously consider such an idea. This has nothing to do with how you view the Rhaegar-Lyanna thing ... the fact just is that Rhaegar was that lovestruck prince in that quote, and not Duncan Targaryen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LynnS Posted November 9, 2020 Share Posted November 9, 2020 2 minutes ago, Lord Varys said: This has nothing to do with how you view the Rhaegar-Lyanna thing ... the fact just is that Rhaegar was that lovestruck prince in that quote, and not Duncan Targaryen I get it. I was seeing it in the context of the tourney. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frey family reunion Posted November 10, 2020 Share Posted November 10, 2020 (edited) On 11/8/2020 at 8:33 AM, butterweedstrover said: GRRM did tell us Rhaegar was love struck by Lyanna: "The Kingdom was unified with dragons, so the Targaryen's flaw was to create an absolute monarchy highly dependent on them, with the small council not designed to be a real check and balance. So, without dragons it took a sneeze, a wildly incompetent and megalomaniac king, a love struck prince, a brutal civil war, a dissolute king that didn't really know what to do with the throne and then chaos." - George R.R. Martin Keep jumping to conclusions. GRRM said Rhaegar was love struck, but he didn't say who or what Rhaegar was love struck with. Specifically he didn't say Rhaegar was love struck by Lyanna. Quote And yet Summerhall was the place the prince loved best. He would go there from time to time, with only his harp for company. Even the knights of the Kingsguard did not attend him there. He liked to sleep in the ruined hall, beneath the moon and the stars, and whenever he came back he would bring a song. When you heard him play his high harp with the silver strings and sing of twilights and tears and the death of kings, you could not but feel that he was singing of himself and those he loved. Quote Did we learn nothing from Summerhall? No good has ever come from these dreams of dragons. Whatever Lyanna was to him, it was most probably as a means to an end. And the end being what Rhaegar was truly in love with. Rhaegar was in love with a dream of dragons. My guess is that we'll learn the same of Dany. That the third betrayal she will know, the betrayal from love, will probably come from one of her true loves. Her dragons. Edited November 10, 2020 by Frey family reunion Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
butterweedstrover Posted November 10, 2020 Share Posted November 10, 2020 (edited) 15 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said: Keep jumping to conclusions. GRRM said Rhaegar was love struck, but he didn't say who or what Rhaegar was love struck with. Specifically he didn't say Rhaegar was love struck by Lyanna. Whatever Lyanna was to him, it was most probably as a means to an end. And the end being what Rhaegar was truly in love with. Rhaegar was in love with a dream of dragons. My guess is that we'll learn the same of Dany. That the third betrayal she will know, the betrayal from love, will probably come from one of her true loves. Her dragons. Keep jumping to conclusions that he meant Summerhall (?!?!?!?!?) Read the full quote, George was not speaking cryptically, it was about the layout of the dynasty before Robert's rebellion. Obsessed, deluded, etc. could be used to describe the affects of a prophecy. But Love-struck?? Do you know what that word means? love-struck: experiencing intense feelings of romantic love for someone; besotted or infatuated. Must we go deeper down the dictionary rabbit hole? Besotted: Strongly infatuated. Infatuated: possessed with an intense but short-lived passion or admiration for someone But please, go on about how naming Lyanna "the queen of love and beauty" was just a cynical tactic to fulfil the prophecy (have a third child). Oh, and your last part about Dany is way off base, the third betrayal is not her dragons (who are not sentient beings). If there is a third dragon rider, then that person will be to blame, not her freaking dragons. The question is who is the third lover? That is an interesting question, not one you could figure out by ignoring reality. Edited November 10, 2020 by butterweedstrover Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frey family reunion Posted November 10, 2020 Share Posted November 10, 2020 8 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said: Keep jumping to conclusions that he meant Summerhall (?!?!?!?!?) Read the full quote, George was not speaking cryptically, it was about the layout of the dynasty before Robert's rebellion. Obsessed, deluded, etc. could be used to describe the affects of a prophecy. But Love-struck?? Do you know what that word means? love-struck: experiencing intense feelings of romantic love for someone; besotted or infatuated. Must we go deeper down the dictionary rabbit hole? Besotted: Strongly infatuated. Infatuated: possessed with an intense but short-lived passion or admiration for someone But please, go on about how naming Lyanna "the queen of love and beauty" was just a cynical tactic to fulfil the prophecy (have a third child). Oh, and your last part about Dany is way off base, the third betrayal is not her dragons (who are not sentient beings). If there is a third dragon rider, then that person will be to blame, not her freaking dragons. The question is who is the third lover? That is an interesting question, not one you could figure out by ignoring reality. Of course the dragons are sentient. And name someone or something that Dany loves more than her dragons. The dragons are her children. And perhaps her love of Drogon is developing into another type of relationship. As she starts to bond to him as not only a dragonrider, but as also mutual protectors of each other. And the text specifically tells us that Rhaegar was in love with Summerhall. Now stop and ask yourself why would he be in love with a place that brought the Targaryens so much grief? It's what Summerhall represented. A dream of dragons. That's what Rhaegar is truly in love with. That's what is propelling his actions. Rhaegar's love of Summerhall inspires him to song. Had Rhaegar ever made a song for Lyanna? You have to start thinking outside the box a bit. Because I guarantee you, that GRRM does. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
butterweedstrover Posted November 10, 2020 Share Posted November 10, 2020 19 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said: Of course the dragons are sentient. And name someone or something that Dany loves more than her dragons. The dragons are her children. And perhaps her love of Drogon is developing into another type of relationship. As she starts to bond to him as not only a dragonrider, but as also mutual protectors of each other. Oh please, name one spec of evidence that dragons are fully sentient beings capable of betrayal. They are animals who act based on instinct, not "perception". Now read the whole prophecy: three fires must you light: one for life and one for death and one to love three mounts must you ride: one to bed and one to dread and one to love . three treasons will you know: once for blood and once for gold and once for love Do you see how all three end in love? The others are different, the last is all the same, the last is how her story ends. She will sleep with this person, be betrayed by this person, and set a fire for this person (burning down kingslanding). Who is this person? I have a guess, and it is interesting to think about, but a dragon does not deal in human emotions. 19 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said: And the text specifically tells us that Rhaegar was in love with Summerhall. Now stop and ask yourself why would he be in love with a place that brought the Targaryens so much grief? It's what Summerhall represented. A dream of dragons. That's what Rhaegar is truly in love with. That's what is propelling his actions. Rhaegar's love of Summerhall inspires him to song. Had Rhaegar ever made a song for Lyanna? Again, love-struck does not mean what you think. 19 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said: You have to start thinking outside the box a bit. Because I guarantee you, that GRRM does. He does, for plenty of the novel. I criticize people for not doing so either, but believing he means something other than what he tells you is be deliberately obtuse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frey family reunion Posted November 10, 2020 Share Posted November 10, 2020 9 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said: Again, love-struck does not mean what you think. No it means exactly what I think. It means you've fallen in love for someone or something hard. Look to your own definition. It can be falling in love with someone or it can mean being besotted or it can mean being infatuated. besotted means being infatuated or obsessed. Infatuated means in the state of being carried away by an unreasoned passion. It usually means towards another person but not always. Infatuations need not only involve people, but can extend to objects, activities, and ideas. (from the Wikipedia). So yes, I know what lovestruck means. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
butterweedstrover Posted November 10, 2020 Share Posted November 10, 2020 40 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said: No it means exactly what I think. It means you've fallen in love for someone or something hard. Look to your own definition. It can be falling in love with someone or it can mean being besotted or it can mean being infatuated. besotted means being infatuated or obsessed. Infatuated means in the state of being carried away by an unreasoned passion. It usually means towards another person but not always. Infatuations need not only involve people, but can extend to objects, activities, and ideas. (from the Wikipedia). So yes, I know what lovestruck means. Romantically Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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