R + L = J v.167

[Lollygag]

The eloping vs kidnap/rape reads like a red herring to distract from their being other options. This isn't the only place where the readers have led down one path to distract them.

My top guess right now is that they ran away together to prevent a war when Aerys found out about Lyanna being the knight and fearing a war between the Targs and Starks which would blow up. Stuff happened while they were on the run. It all lies with Ned: if Lyanna had eloped effectively ruining his life, the life of his family and truly screwing Westeros leading to countless deaths and even more misery, Ned would have more mixed feelings about Lyanna than he does. If Rhaegar had kidnapped/raped her which led to her death, Ned wouldn't be meh towards him.

So whatever it is, it's door #3, something consistent with Ned putting Lyanna on a pedestal and being ok with Rhaegar.

[corbon]

On 2/21/2021 at 11:51 AM, Angel Eyes said:

if Lyanna's main problem with her betrothed, Robert Baratheon, was his cheating on her (he's already sired an illegitimate daughter by the time she was betrothed), why would she decide to elope with a married man? Hypocrisy much?

This has been refuted so many times its ridiculous. 

[Angel Eyes]

11 hours ago, corbon said:

This has been refuted so many times its ridiculous. 

How so?

[John Suburbs]

On 2/20/2021 at 5:51 PM, Angel Eyes said:

So on the question of whether or not Rhaegar Targaryen kidnapped or eloped with Lyanna Stark: if Lyanna's main problem with her betrothed, Robert Baratheon, was his cheating on her (he's already sired an illegitimate daughter by the time she was betrothed), why would she decide to elope with a married man? Hypocrisy much?

The elopement story has even less support than the kidnap story, IMP. If Rhaegar and Co simply fell on Lyanna and dragged her away, then we can see how this story got out so quickly. But if she ran off with him by choice, how could the kidnap story have even started? We'd have to believe that they met up at some public place, where people would know them on sight (which is very few people, actually), and then stage it to look like Lyanna is being taken against her will. And then neither of them cares that Rhaegar is now seen as this mad kidnapper and child rapist, nor do they care that this little stunt is costing Lyanna the lives of her father and brothers and setting the realm to war with itself. And then we get not one, not two, but three kingsguard who supposedly have had enough of Aerys' madness to betray him only to throw their loyalty to a now equally mad prince?

So my lead theory is that Rhaegar had nothing to do with Lyanna's disappearance, they were never together after Harrenhal and Rhaegar is not the father of the Lyanna's baby. Instead, I can see Aerys kidnapping them both separately, fathering the child on Lyanna, and then telling the KG to guard her even if they hear news of his death and the destruction of King's Landing. Then Aerys would arrive, either in human or dragon form, and use Jon to hatch an egg, just like what was supposed to happen to Rhaegar at Summerhall and what Dany accomplished with Rhaego on the pyre.

Alternately, I can see Rhaegar suddenly going mad and actually kidnapping Lyanna, but only if he was magicked into doing it, either through a spell or perhaps a love potion -- and the three KG know that this is what happened.

 

[LynnS]

15 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

Alternately, I can see Rhaegar suddenly going mad and actually kidnapping Lyanna, but only if he was magicked into doing it, either through a spell or perhaps a love potion -- and the three KG know that this is what happened.

Or it never happened and Ned sent Lyanna into hiding himself.  That is, if he had any kind of brain in his head after learning about Brandon running off to KL from Hoster Tully.  I think it's just as likely that the woman Rhaegar fell in love with at the tourney was Ashera rather than Lyanna.  I don't think anyone was being held in the ToJ.  I think Robert started the kidnap rape story himself having no other explanation.  The singers sing about the love story because that's how they entertain and the whole thing becomes a foma.  An untruth told again and again until it becomes the truth in people's minds.

Edited February 22, 2021 by LynnS

[Daeron the Daring]

6 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

The elopement story has even less support than the kidnap story, IMP. If Rhaegar and Co simply fell on Lyanna and dragged her away, then we can see how this story got out so quickly. But if she ran off with him by choice, how could the kidnap story have even started? We'd have to believe that they met up at some public place, where people would know them on sight (which is very few people, actually), and then stage it to look like Lyanna is being taken against her will. And then neither of them cares that Rhaegar is now seen as this mad kidnapper and child rapist, nor do they care that this little stunt is costing Lyanna the lives of her father and brothers and setting the realm to war with itself. And then we get not one, not two, but three kingsguard who supposedly have had enough of Aerys' madness to betray him only to throw their loyalty to a now equally mad prince?

The fact that the whereabouts of Rhaegar and Lyanna was so big of a dead end might imply that neither they knew about what happened in KL, only months after.

If they've been in love, they might not have given a damn about what people think, nor thinking about the consequences of both of them dissapearing. Neither it was a logical move from Brandon to demand Lyanna back from Aerys, so it was likely unexpected from their pov.

Also, it is stated that Rhaegar was wandering along with his companions for months when he finally kidnapped her, and we know nothing about the 'kidnapping'. But if it was on the street, during the day, with people seeing it, we would know that, I imagine.

Then again, we don't know for sure how they felt to each other, but we can suspect (as readers) that it was more than their families tought by that time.

[King17]

I suspect it wasn't really elopement for the sake of love  but I don't think she was kidnapped either I think the truth will be rather complex.

[corbon]

6 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

How so?

By people pointing out the difference between apples and oranges. 
Changing from one bed (woman) to another bed (woman) once (potentially, not even yet), after relevant circumstances changes, is not the same thing as an inability to stop bed-hopping.

She isn't talking just about sex. Robert's not even married yet, she has no claim over his bed, nor does any other woman. She's talking about character. Robert is faithless by character, and that won't ever (and didn't ever) change. Rhaegar is, from every source except Robert's blind hatred (and heck, not even Robert claims Rhaegar was sleeping around behind her back), faithful by character. Moving on, once, when an arranged marriage can no longer include (believed to be necessary - there must be a third head) procreation doesn't change the basic character.
If she expects Rhaegar to stay in her bed, then she is consistent and not hypocritical.
Whether she is right, is another thing entirely. People will disagree on that. A lot of people have already formed their own opinions on very limited information and without close reference to the text.

 

As to the original question, we don't know for sure.
But Ned thinks that Lyanna's wild nature led her to an early grave.

Quote

"It has a name, does it?" Her father sighed. "Ah, Arya. You have a wildness in you, child. 'The wolf blood,' my father used to call it. Lyanna had a touch of it, and my brother Brandon more than a touch. It brought them both to an early grave." 

 In other words, in Ned's eyes, she was not purely a helpless victim of Rhaegar, but somehow her own choices and/or actions contributed to her fate. To what extent, we don't know. And he's not 'blaming' her, just noting that it was a contributing factor. 

Further, we have dying Lyanna, finally 'safe' in Ned's arms, clutching dead roses.

Quote

The fever had taken her strength and her voice had been faint as a whisper, but when he gave her his word, the fear had gone out of his sister's eyes. Ned remembered the way she had smiled then, how tightly her fingers had clutched his as she gave up her hold on life, the rose petals spilling from her palm, dead and black. 

And we know the crown Rhaegar gave her at Harrenhal was made of roses. And after more than a year, they would be dead.  

Quote

Robert had been jesting with Jon and old Lord Hunter as the prince circled the field after unhorsing Ser Barristan in the final tilt to claim the champion's crown. Ned remembered the moment when all the smiles died, when Prince Rhaegar Targaryen urged his horse past his own wife, the Dornish princess Elia Martell, to lay the queen of beauty's laurel in Lyanna's lap. He could see it still: a crown of winter roses, blue as frost.

Ned Stark reached out his hand to grasp the flowery crown, but beneath the pale blue petals the thorns lay hidden. He felt them clawing at his skin, sharp and cruel, saw the slow trickle of blood run down his fingers, and woke, trembling, in the dark.

Promise me, Ned, his sister had whispered from her bed of blood. She had loved the scent of winter roses.

She died, clutching something significant, old, dead roses, by her own choice (clutching the dead roses, not dying). Not conclusive, but it seems rather coincidental to her crown. Hardly likely she'd have the crown as a close and valued thing on her deathbed if her relationship with its giver was as his victim.

I think the evidence points rather strongly towards an elopement of sorts, though the details are utterly unknown. And the whole thing could be reversed by new, stronger evidence.
 

[Angel Eyes]

6 minutes ago, corbon said:

By people pointing out the difference between apples and oranges. 
Changing from one bed (woman) to another bed (woman) once (potentially, not even yet), after relevant circumstances changes, is not the same thing as an inability to stop bed-hopping.

She isn't talking just about sex. Robert's not even married yet, she has no claim over his bed, nor does any other woman. She's talking about character. Robert is faithless by character, and that won't ever (and didn't ever) change. Rhaegar is, from every source except Robert's blind hatred (and heck, not even Robert claims Rhaegar was sleeping around behind her back), faithful by character. Moving on, once, when an arranged marriage can no longer include (believed to be necessary - there must be a third head) procreation doesn't change the basic character.
If she expects Rhaegar to stay in her bed, then she is consistent and not hypocritical.
Whether she is right, is another thing entirely. People will disagree on that. A lot of people have already formed their own opinions on very limited information and without close reference to the text.

If she eloped, she was willingly entering into an affair with a married man after she had complained about Robert's philandering nature.

[John Suburbs]

On 2/22/2021 at 11:26 AM, LynnS said:

Or it never happened and Ned sent Lyanna into hiding himself.  That is, if he had any kind of brain in his head after learning about Brandon running off to KL from Hoster Tully.  I think it's just as likely that the woman Rhaegar fell in love with at the tourney was Ashera rather than Lyanna.  I don't think anyone was being held in the ToJ.  I think Robert started the kidnap rape story himself having no other explanation.  The singers sing about the love story because that's how they entertain and the whole thing becomes a foma.  An untruth told again and again until it becomes the truth in people's minds.

I would still wonder where Rhaegar was all this time when his reputation was being smeared and Starks were in King's Landing calling for his head. And then Lyanna never had a baby, was not at the ToJ? Was there a fight with the KG there? Over what? And what would the promise be about, and what did Lyanna die of in her bed of blood?

[John Suburbs]

On 2/22/2021 at 11:27 AM, Daeron the Daring said:

The fact that the whereabouts of Rhaegar and Lyanna was so big of a dead end might imply that neither they knew about what happened in KL, only months after.

If they've been in love, they might not have given a damn about what people think, nor thinking about the consequences of both of them dissapearing. Neither it was a logical move from Brandon to demand Lyanna back from Aerys, so it was likely unexpected from their pov.

Also, it is stated that Rhaegar was wandering along with his companions for months when he finally kidnapped her, and we know nothing about the 'kidnapping'. But if it was on the street, during the day, with people seeing it, we would know that, I imagine.

Then again, we don't know for sure how they felt to each other, but we can suspect (as readers) that it was more than their families tought by that time.

I have a hard time squaring Lyanna being so uncaring about what people think to the point where her father and brother are being tortured and executed in the Red Keep (not to mention setting the realm at war with itself) with Ned finding it in his heart not only to forgive her but to then agree to a life-altering promise to supposedly protect the product of this selfish love. Remember, this promise was made right after Ned lost five of his closest companions and slew three of the most honorable knights in the kingdom, one of whom, Dayne, Ned revered above all others -- all because of Lyanna's incredible selfishness. Surely there would have been other options for Jon than Ned shaming himself (and Catelyn) with a bastard. He could have been left at any nearby sept and nobody would have been the wiser. 

But yes, if the kidnapping story is true, this is the only way it could have happened: in broad daylight, in front of numerous people, all of whom would know immediately that this is Prince Rhaegar Targeryan and Lady Lyanna Stark and would spread the tale immediately. So why would Rhaegar do this so openly and obviously? Why does he want people to know that this is what he's done? What in Rhaegar's past and in any of the recollections about him would lead us to believe that he is this cruel and reckless? And why would not one, not two, but three kingsguard -- among the most honorable and revered knights in the land -- decide that they've had enough of Aerys' madness to support Rhaegar when Rhaegar himself has just committed an act of sheer madness? Even Aerys did not kidnap and rape the teenage daughter of a high lord. And even Aegon the Unworthy did not lose three KG at once, even after he had one of them torn to pieces and had trashed the reputation of the Lord Commander, his own brother, after the LC saved Aegon's life from assassins.

[BlackLightning]

Here's what I think on this issue...

I think Rhaegar and Lyanna (and Elia as well) knew that the Second Long Night was coming again. How? Maybe Rhaegar had the power of dragon dreams like Dany does...which is very likely. Part of Rhaegar's way of preparing the realm for the coming of the Others was siring children who would become warriors. The whole "the dragon must have three heads" thing. Elia cannot have any children but Lyanna can.

They knew that Stark blood is just as magical as Targaryen blood. There are hints in the books that suggest that Lyanna and/or Brandon were skinchangers; with their gift for horse-riding being so notable people refer to them as centaurs (aka half-human, half-horse).

But anyway, Rhaegar takes another wife in Lyanna (with Elia's consent) and impregnates her.

However, Rhaegar, Lyanna and Elia - so focused on saving the world from the Big Bad - failed to account for the political and social realities of the situation. Case in point: Rhaegar was so focused on the War for the Dawn that he neglected to properly address the very real problem of his father's mental illness in a timely manner (he says as much to Jaime when he leaves for the Trident).

I think it all goes back to the theme (and mystery) of what is the song of ice and fire.

Balancing the big superhero antics of saving the world with the down-to-earth minutiae of ensuring that the world is ready to be saved.

[corbon]

21 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

If she eloped, she was willingly entering into an affair with a married man after she had complained about Robert's philandering nature.

Like I said, its been refuted so many times its ridiculous. But people ignore the refutation in favour of their own narrative.

[Angel Eyes]

48 minutes ago, corbon said:

Like I said, its been refuted so many times its ridiculous. But people ignore the refutation in favour of their own narrative.

Prove it.

[Daeron the Daring]

13 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

But yes, if the kidnapping story is true, this is the only way it could have happened: in broad daylight, in front of numerous people, all of whom would know immediately that this is Prince Rhaegar Targeryan and Lady Lyanna Stark and would spread the tale immediately. So why would Rhaegar do this so openly and obviously? Why does he want people to know that this is what he's done? What in Rhaegar's past and in any of the recollections about him would lead us to believe that he is this cruel and reckless? And why would not one, not two, but three kingsguard -- among the most honorable and revered knights in the land -- decide that they've had enough of Aerys' madness to support Rhaegar when Rhaegar himself has just committed an act of sheer madness? Even Aerys did not kidnap and rape the teenage daughter of a high lord. And even Aegon the Unworthy did not lose three KG at once, even after he had one of them torn to pieces and had trashed the reputation of the Lord Commander, his own brother, after the LC saved Aegon's life from assassins.

If people woud knew that Lyanna was kidnapped, they wouldn't believe other crazy things. Never it was made clear that he kidnapped her, st least not for us in the text. That's why we still don't know.

We know that Lyanna was somewhere in the Riverlands, and Rhaegar was there with his companions. That's all we knew.

But it's understandable why majority thinks he kidnapped her. Seems illogical from the crown prince to run away. Seems illogical from a betrothed lady to run away, again. But we are told many hints that might point to what exactly happened. Remember that Rhaegar and his companions were wandering, adventuring for months everywhere when he 'found' Lyanna.

[Nevets]

4 hours ago, Daeron the Daring said:

If people woud knew that Lyanna was kidnapped, they wouldn't believe other crazy things. Never it was made clear that he kidnapped her, st least not for us in the text. That's why we still don't know.

We know that Lyanna was somewhere in the Riverlands, and Rhaegar was there with his companions. That's all we knew.

But it's understandable why majority thinks he kidnapped her. Seems illogical from the crown prince to run away. Seems illogical from a betrothed lady to run away, again. But we are told many hints that might point to what exactly happened. Remember that Rhaegar and his companions were wandering, adventuring for months everywhere when he 'found' Lyanna.

A lady of Lyanna's age and status is not going to be wandering around by herself.  If she was traveling, say to Riverrun for her brother's wedding, she would probably have a companion her own age, a chaperone (Septa Mordane type), and probably a couple of men-at-arms to keep local troublemakers at bay.  So there would be plenty of witnesses that he took her by force.  None of this prevents it happening by pre-arrangement, though. 

I would guess that prophecy was somehow involved.  It could answer a lot of questions such as why Rhaegar was willing to do something so risky and likely to cause trouble.  Lyanna may have gone along willingly or not.  I doubt we will get a definitive answer., but will get hints.  I would guess that she was at least interested in being, say, the mother of The Prince that Was Promised.  If Brandon knew about it, he may have thought Rhaegar was spouting nonsense and/or trying to seduce his sister, which would explain his anger at the Red Keep.

 

[John Suburbs]

7 hours ago, Daeron the Daring said:

If people woud knew that Lyanna was kidnapped, they wouldn't believe other crazy things. Never it was made clear that he kidnapped her, st least not for us in the text. That's why we still don't know.

We know that Lyanna was somewhere in the Riverlands, and Rhaegar was there with his companions. That's all we knew.

But it's understandable why majority thinks he kidnapped her. Seems illogical from the crown prince to run away. Seems illogical from a betrothed lady to run away, again. But we are told many hints that might point to what exactly happened. Remember that Rhaegar and his companions were wandering, adventuring for months everywhere when he 'found' Lyanna.

Actually, we don't know anything about either of their whereabouts after Harrenhal. All we know is that some unknown person rode up to Brandon and told him Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna. Most people believe that the kidnapping part is a lie, but the fact is the whole thing could have been a lie. Like I said, unless Rhaegar was so mad that he just snatched her in a very public way and damn the consequences, then the only other possibilities are that he either took her quietly and secretly or they both ran off together quietly and secretly, and there would be no reason to think they were together for days or weeks or ever. And if that is the case, then the first indication that anything was wrong would be that Lyanna was missing, not that she'd been kidnapped, by the crown prince no less. And then all of House Stark would have instantly gone into crisis mode not casually been meandering down the kingsroad for a wedding.

So everything about this story is suspect IMO. There is far more reason to believe that it is all a lie, that they were both taken separately, were never together, did not make a baby. And the only person who has the means and the motivation to do this is Aerys.

 

 

[ATaleofSalt&Onions]

On 2/21/2021 at 1:42 PM, Lollygag said:

My top guess right now is that they ran away together to prevent a war when Aerys found out about Lyanna being the knight and fearing a war between the Targs and Starks which would blow up.

I've never thought this theory made any sense. Why would they think vanishing together would avert a war? Why would Rhaegar take her to Dorne, through a thousand miles of territory where they'd have to avoid Aerys's men (and Robert's if they passed through the Stormlands), when they were in the Riverlands, home to her future in-laws and where her brother and father were at the time (or at least Rickard was on the way)? What was the long term plan here? Furthermore, given that Aerys at this point had no problem publicly executing high nobility and openly demanding the heads of Ned and Robert, why would he keep his desire to apprehend Lyanna a secret the entire time, even after she'd disappeared? 

On 2/21/2021 at 1:42 PM, Lollygag said:

So whatever it is, it's door #3, something consistent with Ned putting Lyanna on a pedestal and being ok with Rhaegar.

I don't think this is as much of an issue as people make it out to be. Lyanna was his sister, and Ned has spent 15 years honoring her dying wish to keep her son safe. It's entirely possible that he thinks she was foolish to run off with him, but nonetheless still loves and cherishes her memory. And we do get evidence that Ned does think Lyanna was somewhat responsible for her fate - he says that the wolfs blood drove both her and Brandon to an early grave. As for Rhaegar, I think people exaggerate how fondly Ned thinks of him. It's true that he doesn't think of him hatefully, but there's no indication of fondness either. Thinking a guy wouldn't visit a brothel doesn't indicate much beyond thinking he wasn't a whoremonger. In recalling the Harrenhal crowning in a dream, Ned thinks about how all smiles died at that moment, and when Ned reaches out to grab the crown, he gets pricked by the hidden thorns and starts bleeding. Which I think fits with him viewing that incident as the start of something that ended disastrously. I think Ned's thoughts are, given his character (not exactly like Robert in terms of constantly and angrily recalling long dead foes), in line with him thinking that Lyanna and Rhaegar were foolish, but still loving his sister and not hating Rhaegar.

On 2/22/2021 at 8:11 AM, John Suburbs said:

But if she ran off with him by choice, how could the kidnap story have even started?

Setting aside everything else, I think it should be remembered that girls in Westeros don't have the freedom to run off with married men of their own volition. Running off with a lord's daughter without his permission is essentially kidnapping in their eyes regardless of her wishes (hell, it'd be kidnapping by our standards on account of her age). 

On 2/22/2021 at 8:11 AM, John Suburbs said:

Instead, I can see Aerys kidnapping them both separately, fathering the child on Lyanna, and then telling the KG to guard her even if they hear news of his death and the destruction of King's Landing.

It seems odd to me to dismiss RLJ because there isn't conclusive evidence they were together after Harrenhal and you're not sure why the kidnapping story would have spread, and then go with the theory that Aerys fathered Jon, which no textual support anywhere. Among other things, we know that Aerys was extremely reclusive after Duskendale. The Harrenhal tourney was the first time he left the Red Keep after that, and we have no indication he left it again after he returned. We also have no indication that Lyanna was taken to King's Landing. One of these things had to have happened in order for Aerys to be the father. And despite having two POVs from men who were KG at the time, we don't get any hint of that. In fact, Barristan thinks to himself about how thousands died because Rhaegar loved his Lady Lyanna. If Aerys really was hatching this plot and including KG on it, why would Barristan and Jaime be completely unaware of it?

[John Suburbs]

22 hours ago, ATaleofSalt&Onions said:

 

Setting aside everything else, I think it should be remembered that girls in Westeros don't have the freedom to run off with married men of their own volition. Running off with a lord's daughter without his permission is essentially kidnapping in their eyes regardless of her wishes (hell, it'd be kidnapping by our standards on account of her age). 

It seems odd to me to dismiss RLJ because there isn't conclusive evidence they were together after Harrenhal and you're not sure why the kidnapping story would have spread, and then go with the theory that Aerys fathered Jon, which no textual support anywhere. Among other things, we know that Aerys was extremely reclusive after Duskendale. The Harrenhal tourney was the first time he left the Red Keep after that, and we have no indication he left it again after he returned. We also have no indication that Lyanna was taken to King's Landing. One of these things had to have happened in order for Aerys to be the father. And despite having two POVs from men who were KG at the time, we don't get any hint of that. In fact, Barristan thinks to himself about how thousands died because Rhaegar loved his Lady Lyanna. If Aerys really was hatching this plot and including KG on it, why would Barristan and Jaime be completely unaware of it?

OK, but if Lyanna did run off willingly, then how did the kidnap story start? Why would they meet up in a public place where people know who they are? Why would they go anywhere they can be identified? Why take her all the way across the country to some bleak tower in the marches when Dragonstone is only a short boat trip away? And why would Lyanna be OK with this scurrilous story about the love of her life being a kidnapper and a child-rapist, particularly when the situation devolves to the point where her father and brother are being tortuously executed in the Red Keep and the realm goes to war with itself? And why would Ned feel obligated to make this life-altering promise to a sister who was perfectly willing to sacrifice all their lives just so she could be happy with her prince?

No, we have no conclusive proof that Aerys did any of these things. All we have are the myriad ways he acted after the supposed kidnapping. For years now, Aerys has suspected Rhaegar of trying to steal his crown, and now suddenly Rhaegar goes and does something like this. Yet, when Brandon comes banging at his gates, Aerys not only covers for Rhaegar but executes his accusers. Why? This would have been the perfect opportunity to expose his son for the madman that he is and at the very least disinherit him while naming his favorite, Viserys, as the new Prince of Dragonstone. And then he goes even further by putting Rhaegar -- who has zero military experience and has never even been in a battle let alone commanded a host -- in charge of an army that can be used to usurp the crown.

But we can see Aerys doing this if he was the kidnapper. He can't produce Rhaegar at this point because Rhaegar would just spill the whole story. It's only after Aerys gets ahold of Elia and the children can he now compel Rhaegar to come back and fight for him and ensure that he won't make a grab for the throne.

And finally, the KG at the tower. Supposedly, they have turned their cloaks on Aerys in order to support Rhaegar. All three of them at once? And somehow they still retain the reputation as being among the most noble, honorable kights that chivalry has ever produced? And they apparently have had enough of Aerys' madness so now they will support a prince who has just committed an act that is far madder than anything Aerys has done? But if they know Rhaegar is innocent in all of this, they just might do this. Or alternatively, they very well may been at the ToJ on Aerys' orders, making an additional vow that they would stay there even if they received word of Aerys' death -- probably not knowing that his intention is to sacrifice the baby to the flames in order to hatch a dragon egg, just like what was supposed to happen to Rhaegar at Summerhall and just like what Dany did with Rhaego's remains on Drogo's pyre. And no, Jaime, Selmy, Lewyn and Derry were not privy to this because they didn't have to be.

So regardless of whether the kidnapping is true or not, this whole story leads to an endless series of conflicts with the text. Everyone is doing the exact opposite of what they should be doing. There may not be evidence to support ALJ to the exclusion of all other possibilities, but there is a wealth of evidence that disputes RLJ.

[ATaleofSalt&Onions]

37 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

OK, but if Lyanna did run off willingly, then how did the kidnap story start?

You missed the point of what I said. It doesn't require some extravagant explanation for why people would think a 15 year old betrothed girl running off with a married guy (without her father's permission, obviously) was kidnapping because that scenario essentially is kidnapping in their world regardless of her wishes (and it would also be kidnapping in our society, though not quite for the same reason of course).

40 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

Why would they meet up in a public place where people know who they are? Why would they go anywhere they can be identified?

We don't know where exactly they did meet up, other than that it was near Harrenhal. Rhaegar has features that make him very easily identifiable. Lyanna presumably wasn't randomly all by herself near Harrenhal. It's not exactly theory-breaking to assume somebody saw and recognized them, even if they tried to be discrete. This is a much more logical conclusion than "Rhaegar and Lyanna were never together at all and actually Aerys knocked her up."

43 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

Why take her all the way across the country to some bleak tower in the marches when Dragonstone is only a short boat trip away?

He had a wife at Dragonstone, and he/they may have wanted to go somewhere they couldn't be easily found by anyone and everyone. And from a storytelling perspective, Lyanna being at Dragonstone just isn't convenient to contrive a scenario where Ned finds Lyanna and her baby virtually by himself and is able to hide knowledge of her giving birth from the public (and Robert, ultimately).

47 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

And why would Lyanna be OK with this scurrilous story about the love of her life being a kidnapper and a child-rapist, particularly when the situation devolves to the point where her father and brother are being tortuously executed in the Red Keep and the realm goes to war with itself?

We don't know that Lyanna was ok with all of that. We also don't know how well-informed she was of events going on as they happened, how long it took her to be informed, etc. 

48 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

And why would Ned feel obligated to make this life-altering promise to a sister who was perfectly willing to sacrifice all their lives just so she could be happy with her prince?

I don't think Lyanna was "perfectly willing to sacrifice all their lives," I think she made a foolish decision that had disastrous unintended consequences. In addition, Ned is a kind-hearted guy that loved his sister and cared deeply about protecting the innocent (like his newborn nephew). It's not difficult to understand why he'd claim and care for Jon in this situation. Also, I want to point out that while Ned clearly does still love Lyanna and cherish her memory, he also explicitly states that the wolfsblood drove her (and Brandon) to an early grave, showing that he does think she bears some responsibility for her fate. If she was just an innocent victim of a brutal kidnapping and rape by Aerys, why would he think that?

56 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

Supposedly, they have turned their cloaks on Aerys in order to support Rhaegar.

Actually, nobody ever states this in the text, so I'm not sure where the "supposedly" is coming from here. I admit there's definitely some mystery as to explaining/justifying the actions of the KG, what orders they were given and my whom, etc. but there are a ton of possibilities because we just don't know much about that at this point. So assuming one specific scenario as the only alternative and then dismissing it because you don't find it plausible doesn't prove anything.

1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

There may not be evidence to support ALJ to the exclusion of all other possibilities,

It's not just that there's no evidence to support ALJ to the exclusion of everything else, there's simply no evidence for it at all. Nobody even remotely hints at Aerys and Lyanna being a thing (consensually or not) in any way, shape, or form, or that they were ever in the same place at any point after the Harrenhal tournament.