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R + L = J v.167


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31 minutes ago, StarksInTheNorth said:

My latest, mostly baseless speculation, is that Lyanna was stabbed (either on purpose or on accident) during the conflict at the Tower of Joy. Perhaps she gives birth okay, Ned appears and wants to take her and her child home, but the Kingsguard will only let him take Lyanna. She refuses to leave Jon, tries to take him, and the Kingsguard fight back. This leads to the conflict, and then she's stabbed and dies.

I can't imagine why they would allow her to leave? 

 

32 minutes ago, StarksInTheNorth said:

I like this idea for a few reasons: first, it gives Lyanna agency. She lacks a lot of agency throughout the story, from her betrothal to Robert to the events surrounding her disappearance. Second, I think it might tie with Lyanna's character that she would try to take her son. 

 

It is very uncomfortable how Lyanna lacks agency in the narrative. I might point out though that her forced betrothal to Robert is her lacking agency *in her world*, not in the story.

I just don't think it would fix the problems with Lyanna's agency if she was brutally stabbed to death instead? It doesn't get around the fact that the plot demands that she has a baby and dies, or the fact that she is a character with absolutely no interiority. 

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On 11/11/2021 at 9:02 AM, StarksInTheNorth said:

I like this idea for a few reasons: first, it gives Lyanna agency. She lacks a lot of agency throughout the story, from her betrothal to Robert to the events surrounding her disappearance. Second, I think it might tie with Lyanna's character that she would try to take her son. She would carry a sword if Rickard let her, so picking up a knife to bring her baby with her seems in character with the wolfsblood. Third, it goes with the message GRRM seems to be saying about Aerys' Kingsguard, that they weren't all they were cracked up to be. There's a theme of true knights through ASOIAF, especially around Sansa, Brienne, Jaime, etc. And these supposed paragons of knighthood choosing not to let a young woman keep her baby goes in line with that exploration of true knighthood. Finally, I just think it makes more sense based o the symptoms we know about her.

Lyanna is a girl of fourteen to sixteen years old when the events from the time of the Harrenhal tourney to her likely death at the Tower of Joy. She is member of an aristocratic family in which her role is rigidly defined. Yet the Lyanna we know is a young woman who rebels against that role time and time again. Think of her battle with the squires over their treatment of Howland Reed, the possibility she rides in the tourney as the Knight of the Laughing Tree, and her remarks about Robert's nature to Ned. Which is also consistent with the "wild" northern girl who rides like a centaur and trains in skills decidedly not approved by her father or much of Westerosi society. This is a portrait of a young woman fighting for her own way in her world, not just a tool of others. I call that "agency." That is even more so if, as I think is likely, Lyanna herself plays a role in her "kidnapping" or escape from an impending marriage to a man she wants no part of.

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The more that I read these post the more I hope that the parentage of Jon Snow will never be resolved . If you think about it ,  it asks more questions . 1 Would Lyanna run from a man who loves her ,because he won't stay faithful . To a man who only wants a baby momma , Or when Rhaegar took Lyanna to the ToJ was he going to try to complete the ritual that failed at Summerhall  ( All Targaryens was mad about fire , ALL TARGARYENS. At lease that what Jaime said .

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  • 4 weeks later...
On 11/14/2021 at 10:51 PM, BRANDON GREYSTARK said:

The more that I read these post the more I hope that the parentage of Jon Snow will never be resolved . If you think about it ,  it asks more questions . 1 Would Lyanna run from a man who loves her ,because he won't stay faithful . To a man who only wants a baby momma , Or when Rhaegar took Lyanna to the ToJ was he going to try to complete the ritual that failed at Summerhall  ( All Targaryens was mad about fire , ALL TARGARYENS. At lease that what Jaime said .

I find it interesting how any one could justify or rationalize Lyanna Stark, falling for Rhaegar. She literally doesn't want Robert cause he is likely to cheat on her, to cheat with an already married man, who is cheating. It literally makes no sense at all. 

She is a northerner, who is of the north, and wants to be free. If any man is stealing her heart, its a wildling. 

We are told who Jon's father is the same way we are told many other clues in the book, through the legends repeating. His father is Mance Rayder, not Rhaegar. Mance is the Black Brother at Harrenhal, who has a booming voice that later commands the wildlings. He likely was born at WhiteTree and so would paint a White tree on his shield. 

 Mance speaks of drinking Summerwine and tasting Dornishman's wives. While having to travel south of the Neck to be able to do so. He also mentions this same thing, when first meeting Jon. Then ask Jon how he likes the song, then repeats the part about tasting the Dornishman's wife. Robert, born near the Dornish Marches. Who to anyone in the north would just regard him as close enough to a Dornishman, as all men south of the Wall all southerners anyways. 

 

Rhaegar's secret child at the Tower of Joy, is the Dayne Heiress, by his friends sister. Ashara Dayne, Rhaegar's paramour, from Dorne. Where such a thing is not a dishonor. Daenerys, the Dayne Heiress, and Sword/Star of the Morning who is the Blood of the Dragon.

Jon is a crow, and a northerner tied to his cousin Bran the 3 eyed Crow. He is the Stark born to a King Beyond the Wall same as legend

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1 hour ago, AlaskanSandman said:

I find it interesting how any one could justify or rationalize Lyanna Stark, falling for Rhaegar. She literally doesn't want Robert cause he is likely to cheat on her, to cheat with an already married man, who is cheating. It literally makes no sense at all. 

 

Robert sleeps with almost literally every young woman who comes his way. He fathers bastards left, right and centre without committing himself. He enjoys visiting brothels and chasing screaming peasant girls. He makes promises to get the girl and forgets them almost immediately. That's vastly different from a man who marries one woman and later enters into a relationship with another one and actually commits himself in both relationships. Rhaegar does not chase every woman prettier than a scarecrow and does not visit brothels. Lyanna is not Marianne Dashwood, who condemns "second attachments" as such, what she is appalled by is irresponsible promiscuity without any real commitment.

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3 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

I find it interesting how any one could justify or rationalize Lyanna Stark, falling for Rhaegar. She literally doesn't want Robert cause he is likely to cheat on her, to cheat with an already married man, who is cheating. It literally makes no sense at all. 

@Julia H. is right. Lyanna's problem with Robert goes further than a one time romance out of wedlock , a paramour or one single bastard. not to mention, comparing Rhaegar and Robert in regards of affairs is a bit problematic. 

the issue with R+L theory is not Lyanna's character in my view, rather it's Rhaegar's alongside the three kingsgaurds. 

Rhaegar's been painted as a pretty responsible guy who probably wouldn't follow his heart for months all while his country bleeds and his children -one of whom is prince that was promised- could be in danger from every corner including from grandpa king. some would suggest Rhaegar was trying to make the third head of the dragon and thus was doing what was the best for the realm during that time . but that would mean Lyanna either entered Rhaegar's plan to take up the role of lady baby maker willingly which doesn't fit her character or was deceived and seduced by an eager Rhaegar which doesn't fit the decent personality of him. and Rhaegar's "coming back from Dorne" -where his brother in law's territory is- doesn't make sense if he was with Lyanna. how could he be secretive and careful enough not to be seen in Dorne when he couldn't in Riverland where he supposedly abduct Lyanna? 

on the other hand , the three kingsgaurds seemed to be working for Rhaegar and Aerys , explaining why they felt they were doing their full duty to their king and prince. my guess is whatever they were doing was related to Rhaegar's journey. I think Rhaegar and his six companions were searching for something or doing something related to the prophecy... why else would the crown prince take only six companions with him and all confidants and close friends at that AND so soon after the birth of his promised prince? ... now whether every thing happened after was related to that or whether Lyanna's disappearance was related is questionable. 

as for Jon , I believe Lyanna is the mother and that will be the important part of Jon's parentage. but I can't quite say who might be the father. it might as well be Rhaegar , after all one single passionate night is more than enough to make baby Jon! not a prophetical scheme or an epic love that stupifies people!  yet , if we don't rely on the show's plot , with the books' information other candidates for Jon's dad ( Mance , Aerys , Arthur ,even Ned and Brandon in the case Lyanna's not the mother) shouldn't be ruled out.

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3 hours ago, EggBlue said:

@Julia H. is right. Lyanna's problem with Robert goes further than a one time romance out of wedlock , a paramour or one single bastard. not to mention, comparing Rhaegar and Robert in regards of affairs is a bit problematic. 

the issue with R+L theory is not Lyanna's character in my view, rather it's Rhaegar's alongside the three kingsgaurds. 

Rhaegar's been painted as a pretty responsible guy who probably wouldn't follow his heart for months all while his country bleeds and his children -one of whom is prince that was promised- could be in danger from every corner including from grandpa king. some would suggest Rhaegar was trying to make the third head of the dragon and thus was doing what was the best for the realm during that time . but that would mean Lyanna either entered Rhaegar's plan to take up the role of lady baby maker willingly which doesn't fit her character or was deceived and seduced by an eager Rhaegar which doesn't fit the decent personality of him. and Rhaegar's "coming back from Dorne" -where his brother in law's territory is- doesn't make sense if he was with Lyanna. how could he be secretive and careful enough not to be seen in Dorne when he couldn't in Riverland where he supposedly abduct Lyanna? 

on the other hand , the three kingsgaurds seemed to be working for Rhaegar and Aerys , explaining why they felt they were doing their full duty to their king and prince. my guess is whatever they were doing was related to Rhaegar's journey. I think Rhaegar and his six companions were searching for something or doing something related to the prophecy... why else would the crown prince take only six companions with him and all confidants and close friends at that AND so soon after the birth of his promised prince? ... now whether every thing happened after was related to that or whether Lyanna's disappearance was related is questionable. 

as for Jon , I believe Lyanna is the mother and that will be the important part of Jon's parentage. but I can't quite say who might be the father. it might as well be Rhaegar , after all one single passionate night is more than enough to make baby Jon! not a prophetical scheme or an epic love that stupifies people!  yet , if we don't rely on the show's plot , with the books' information other candidates for Jon's dad ( Mance , Aerys , Arthur ,even Ned and Brandon in the case Lyanna's not the mother) shouldn't be ruled out.

Still weird how people can justify going for one cheater over another. Idk how many people have actually done this in real life and feel the need to justify cheating, but Im of the opinion that cheating is cheating. 

  That's also a lot of assumption or presumed rumors that Lyanna is going on in regards to Rhaegar. Who is telling Lyanna sweet words about Rhaegar anyways? There is no textual evidence for anything. 

Its not only hard for me to picture her dropping one cheater for another, but even harder to imagine her becoming a mistress home wrecker. Robert sleeping with whores is one thing,  Lyanna becoming one I think is a slightly different issue, but thats just my opinion. 

Rhaegar is also my problem with the R+L theory. He is never shown to be a cheater, but is going to bring war upon his house by stealing Lyanna.

I def think Jon is Lyanna's child though, and Daenerys is definitely a Taragaryen. I think the show went with one of the version Martin has put out there, but I do not think its the right one. Martin has stated that he's going for multiple meanings on many things. I think he uses this strategy for his myths, his timeline, and most things as a way of creating layers, but i think there is still only one thats right. 

 

The only thing I don't understand is what happened between Mance and Rhaegar. IF Mance is the Mystery Knight, and Mance is the one who Kidnapped Lyanna, and Rhaegar is just blamed for it. There has to be something in it for both. I assume the red slash Mance keeps with him is some token promise from Rhaegar, I just don't know for what. There is no evidence that Mance was aware of the Others returning just then. It all still makes more sense than two pretty straight laced people cheating on their partners out of no where with no evidence that Rhaegar ever even met or spoke to Lyanna. Kidnapping brides is a wildling thing to do though, blue roses come from the North and not something Rhaegar is likely to get ahold of on his own. So maybe Rhaegar's deal with Mance involved the giving of the Rose crown? I can only assume that Rhaegar got the crown of roses from Mance. Daenerys has a vision of a blue rose growing out of the Wall. Jon and Mance were both black brothers and served at the Wall. 

One way or another, I think we're all missing something. I hope we all get a surprise still

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5 hours ago, Julia H. said:

Robert sleeps with almost literally every young woman who comes his way. He fathers bastards left, right and centre without committing himself. He enjoys visiting brothels and chasing screaming peasant girls. He makes promises to get the girl and forgets them almost immediately. That's vastly different from a man who marries one woman and later enters into a relationship with another one and actually commits himself in both relationships. Rhaegar does not chase every woman prettier than a scarecrow and does not visit brothels. Lyanna is not Marianne Dashwood, who condemns "second attachments" as such, what she is appalled by is irresponsible promiscuity without any real commitment.

Seems a lil presumptive but ok. That's just pretty detailed for the lack of information we are given. We are simply told she doesn't think Robert is faithful or will be, and also that she thinks love is a "Sweet idea"

A Game of Thrones - Eddard IX

Ned let him prattle on. After a time, he quieted and they rode in silence. The streets of King's Landing were dark and deserted. The rain had driven everyone under their roofs. It beat down on Ned's head, warm as blood and relentless as old guilts. Fat drops of water ran down his face.
"Robert will never keep to one bed," Lyanna had told him at Winterfell, on the night long ago when their father had promised her hand to the young Lord of Storm's End. "I hear he has gotten a child on some girl in the Vale." Ned had held the babe in his arms; he could scarcely deny her, nor would he lie to his sister, but he had assured her that what Robert did before their betrothal was of no matter, that he was a good man and true who would love her with all his heart. Lyanna had only smiled. "Love is sweet, dearest Ned, but it cannot change a man's nature."
 
Doesn't sound much like she's into any married man pretending to "love" her. A cheater is a cheater. Rhaegar cheating would mean its in his nature, and "love" won't change a man's nature.
Besides, the books only hints that Rhaegar was interested because he wanted a 3rd child. No where is it implied that Rhaegar didn't love Elia, who he upset his father and Tywin to marry. So why would Lyanna want a man only interested in having a 3rd child to fulfill prophecy? Where is it implied that Lyanna was concerned about prophecy? 
The amount of bending things to make this work is weird. 
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25 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Seems a lil presumptive but ok. That's just pretty detailed for the lack of information we are given. We are simply told she doesn't think Robert is faithful or will be, and also that she thinks love is a "Sweet idea"

Besides, the books only hints that Rhaegar was interested because he wanted a 3rd child. No where is it implied that Rhaegar didn't love Elia, who he upset his father and Tywin to marry. So why would Lyanna want a man only interested in having a 3rd child to fulfill prophecy? Where is it implied that Lyanna was concerned about prophecy? 
The amount of bending things to make this work is weird. 
37 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Still weird how people can justify going for one cheater over another. Idk how many people have actually done this in real life and feel the need to justify cheating, but Im of the opinion that cheating is cheating. 

One way or another, I think we're all missing something. I hope we all get a surprise still

I agree that the whole story of Lyanna and Rhaegar doesn't make sense at some levels and honestly I personally don't like the ship:) though , it's not far fetched that a young woman who is stuck in a betrothal to a guy she sure knows will cheat on her constantly in the future , would be desperate enough to be happy with a mutual love with a married guy who might even keep to one bed rather than two for her sake since he is generally decent in nature and was married out of politics.... now, everything we know about Rhaegar suggest that he is far from a cheater... a statement you say you agree with...so , how come you think he had a paramour in his wife's companion, Ashara Dayne? and how is that not cheating? the dornish are ok with sex out of wedlock and a lot else. but having lovers other than one's spouse is not something we are sure of among the dornish...

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3 minutes ago, EggBlue said:

I agree that the whole story of Lyanna and Rhaegar doesn't make sense at some levels and honestly I personally don't like the ship:) though , it's not far fetched that a young woman who is stuck in a betrothal to a guy she sure knows will cheat on her constantly in the future , would be desperate enough to be happy with a mutual love with a married guy who might even keep to one bed rather than two for her sake since he is generally decent in nature and was married out of politics.... now, everything we know about Rhaegar suggest that he is far from a cheater... a statement you say you agree with...so , how come you think he had a paramour in his wife's companion, Ashara Dayne? and how is that not cheating? the dornish are ok with sex out of wedlock and a lot else. but having lovers other than one's spouse is not something we are sure of among the dornish...

Sure, Doran's son offers to be Dany's paramour. So it must not be too much of a dishonor to the Dornish.

While I think Rhaegar is not generally a cheater and not interested in Lyanna or Ashara for love, I do think he may have been obsessed with prophecy and sought out a 3rd child that his wife could no longer have. The idea of Elia and Rhaegar having a surrogate mother with a paramour in his friends sister, from Dorne. Seems more logical than him starting a war to steal Lyanna, who he just met possibly at Harrenhal (Nothing says they actually spoke together though) cause he suddenly fell in love with her.

 

Why would Lyanna think Rhaegar would keep to only her bed despite being married to Elia and having kids with her? Was she picturing she would be put up a Kings landing? Maybe use the same secret passage Tywin was using? Praying the mad king doesn't burn her alive? Or was she going to be swept away to the ever romantic Dragonstone to be a prisoner upon the Island? Or perhaps she would just stay hiding in Dorne? While all of the 7 kingdoms talks about what a whore she is, especially for being a lady, unwed. Nothing to inherit, or gain. Let alone what Lyanna's dear father may think of her. Present day women have different options than women of those type days. I just don't see it. She might as well just hide at the brothel.  Idk, I just have a hard time seeing it. 

 

Rhaegar needed to win Harrenhal too, so he couldn't have Mance beating him. Mance wants to give a blue rose crown to Lyanna though. Something i doubt Rhaegar would understand the symbolism of. Rhaegar has never even been to the North. How would he know about the Blue Roses or be able to get one? 

There are just too many clues left out by assuming Rhaegar is Jon's father. Those clues make more sense with Mance as Jon's father, while Rhaegar is Daenerys. Daenerys even has a vision where she see's Rhaegar, but when he lifts his helmet, its Dany.

A Game of Thrones - Daenerys IX

"… the dragon …"
And saw her brother Rhaegar, mounted on a stallion as black as his armor. Fire glimmered red through the narrow eye slit of his helm. "The last dragon," Ser Jorah's voice whispered faintly. "The last, the last." Dany lifted his polished black visor. The face within was her own.
After that, for a long time, there was only the pain, the fire within her, and the whisperings of stars.

A Clash of Kings - Daenerys IV

"Will you make a song for him?" the woman asked.
"He has a song," the man replied. "He is the prince that was promised, and his is the song of ice and fire." He looked up when he said it and his eyes met Dany's, and it seemed as if he saw her standing there beyond the door. "There must be one more," he said, though whether he was speaking to her or the woman in the bed she could not say. "The dragon has three heads." He went to the window seat, picked up a harp, and ran his fingers lightly over its silvery strings. Sweet sadness filled the room as man and wife and babe faded like the morning mist, only the music lingering behind to speed her on her way.
 
Rhaegar, is speaking to Ashara Dayne. Dany's mother, who Dany is seeing the vision through the eyes of. 
 
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29 minutes ago, EggBlue said:

I agree that the whole story of Lyanna and Rhaegar doesn't make sense at some levels and honestly I personally don't like the ship:) though , it's not far fetched that a young woman who is stuck in a betrothal to a guy she sure knows will cheat on her constantly in the future , would be desperate enough to be happy with a mutual love with a married guy who might even keep to one bed rather than two for her sake since he is generally decent in nature and was married out of politics.... now, everything we know about Rhaegar suggest that he is far from a cheater... a statement you say you agree with...so , how come you think he had a paramour in his wife's companion, Ashara Dayne? and how is that not cheating? the dornish are ok with sex out of wedlock and a lot else. but having lovers other than one's spouse is not something we are sure of among the dornish...

A Dance with Dragons - The Dragontamer

"She might be. Men may be fond of maidens, but women like a man who knows what he's about in the bedchamber. It's another sort of swordplay. Takes training to be good at it."
The gibe stung. Quentyn had never felt so much a boy as when he'd stood before Daenerys Targaryen, pleading for her hand. The thought of bedding her terrified him almost as much as her dragons had. What if he could not please her? "Daenerys has a paramour," he said defensively. "My father did not send me here to amuse the queen in the bedchamber. You know why we have come."
"You cannot marry her. She has a husband."
 
Not only does Oberyn have a paramour, but its suggested to Quentyn in regards to Daenerys. I would hardly call Oberyn paramour just his bed amusement. Its his love
 
Not only is having a paramour ok for Nobels in Dorne, but it appears to be ok for a Noble to be a paramour
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34 minutes ago, EggBlue said:

I agree that the whole story of Lyanna and Rhaegar doesn't make sense at some levels and honestly I personally don't like the ship:) though , it's not far fetched that a young woman who is stuck in a betrothal to a guy she sure knows will cheat on her constantly in the future , would be desperate enough to be happy with a mutual love with a married guy who might even keep to one bed rather than two for her sake since he is generally decent in nature and was married out of politics.... now, everything we know about Rhaegar suggest that he is far from a cheater... a statement you say you agree with...so , how come you think he had a paramour in his wife's companion, Ashara Dayne? and how is that not cheating? the dornish are ok with sex out of wedlock and a lot else. but having lovers other than one's spouse is not something we are sure of among the dornish...

Lemon Trees, a plot steeped in Dorne, including secret marriage agreements between Dorne and Viserys through the Sea Lord of Braavos. 

Seeing herself as Rhaegar. Seeing stars wheeling about and being of Starfall, and the Dayne Heiress. Daenerys is the Sword of the Morning/Star of the Morning. The Lightbearer.

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1 hour ago, EggBlue said:

I agree that the whole story of Lyanna and Rhaegar doesn't make sense at some levels and honestly I personally don't like the ship:) though , it's not far fetched that a young woman who is stuck in a betrothal to a guy she sure knows will cheat on her constantly in the future , would be desperate enough to be happy with a mutual love with a married guy who might even keep to one bed rather than two for her sake since he is generally decent in nature and was married out of politics.... now, everything we know about Rhaegar suggest that he is far from a cheater... a statement you say you agree with...so , how come you think he had a paramour in his wife's companion, Ashara Dayne? and how is that not cheating? the dornish are ok with sex out of wedlock and a lot else. but having lovers other than one's spouse is not something we are sure of among the dornish...

A Storm of Swords - Jon II

A crust of frozen blood crunched beneath the heel of his boot. The wildlings were stripping the dead horses of every scrap of steel and leather, even prying the horseshoes off their hooves. A few were going through packs they'd turned up, looking for weapons and food. Jon passed one of Chett's dogs, or what remained of him, lying in a sludgy pool of half-frozen blood.
A few tents were still standing on the far side of the camp, and it was there they found Mance Rayder. Beneath his slashed cloak of black wool and red silk
 

A Storm of Swords - Jon II

Half the wildling host had lived all their lives without so much as a glimpse of the Wall, Jon judged, and most of those spoke no word of the Common Tongue. It did not matter. Mance Rayder spoke the Old Tongue, even sang in it, fingering his lute and filling the night with strange wild music.
Mance had spent years assembling this vast plodding host, talking to this clan mother and that magnar, winning one village with sweet words and another with a song and a third with the edge of his sword, making peace between Harma Dogshead and the Lord o' Bones, between the Hornfoots and the Nightrunners, between the walrus men of the Frozen Shore and the cannibal clans of the great ice rivers, hammering a hundred different daggers into one great spear, aimed at the heart of the Seven Kingdoms. He had no crown nor scepter, no robes of silk and velvet, but it was plain to Jon that Mance Rayder was a king in more than name.
 

A Storm of Swords - Jon X

Open the gate and let them pass. Easy to say, but what must follow? Giants camping in the ruins of Winterfell? Cannibals in the wolfswood, chariots sweeping across the barrowlands, free folk stealing the daughters of shipwrights and silversmiths from White Harbor and fishwives off the Stony Shore? "Are you a true king?" Jon asked suddenly.
"I've never had a crown on my head or sat my arse on a bloody throne, if that's what you're asking," Mance replied. "My birth is as low as a man's can get, no septon's ever smeared my head with oils, I don't own any castles, and my queen wears furs and amber, not silk and sapphires.
 

A Storm of Swords - Jon I

"A cloak?"
"The black wool cloak of a Sworn Brother of the Night's Watch," said the King-beyond-the-Wall. "One day on a ranging we brought down a fine big elk. We were skinning it when the smell of blood drew a shadow-cat out of its lair. I drove it off, but not before it shredded my cloak to ribbons. Do you see? Here, here, and here?" He chuckled. "It shredded my arm and back as well, and I bled worse than the elk. My brothers feared I might die before they got me back to Maester Mullin at the Shadow Tower, so they carried me to a wildling village where we knew an old wisewoman did some healing. She was dead, as it happened, but her daughter saw to me. Cleaned my wounds, sewed me up, and fed me porridge and potions until I was strong enough to ride again. And she sewed up the rents in my cloak as well, with some scarlet silk from Asshai that her grandmother had pulled from the wreck of a cog washed up on the Frozen Shore. It was the greatest treasure she had, and her gift to me." He swept the cloak back over his shoulders. "But at the Shadow Tower, I was given a new wool cloak from stores, black and black, and trimmed with black, to go with my black breeches and black boots, my black doublet and black mail. The new cloak had no frays nor rips nor tears . . . and most of all, no red. The men of the Night's Watch dressed in black, Ser Denys Mallister reminded me sternly, as if I had forgotten. My old cloak was fit for burning now, he said.
 
 
The Shadow Tower is one of three castles along the Wall that are still inhabited by the Night's Watch. It is located next to mountains at the western end of the Wall.[1] 
 
So, at the Western most end of Westeros, Mance ends up at a village, where a woman has red silk. Something mentioned to be only of kings and such. From a wrecked Gog from Asshai, which is on the East end of the World. From the wreck, apparently only a small piece of red silk is all she found of importance too.
 
So either Assshai is just West of Westeros, which, I think they would know by now. A ship from England doesn't just wash up ashore in the America's. Or likewise from China to America. They would need to be much closer, close enough, that they likely would have discovered each other by now. 
 
Or, Mance is lying and twisted the facts. 
1. He never said they went ranging North of the Wall. Nor that the Village was North of the Wall. Mance has come south of the wall repeatedly in the books. Once coming to Winterfell even. 
2. That the Elk and Shadow cat were actually a Lannister and a Stormlander. The Stag killing the Wolf is symbolism for Starks and Barratheons. Cats often for Lannisters.
 
Its possible that Mance and Lyanna were found, and that Mance fought a Lannister and a Stormlander. Got injured, and that's why Lyanna and him were hiding for so long. Which led to her getting pregnant. 
 
Explaining why Mance has tasted Summerwines and tasted Dornishman's wives. As neither is typically found north of the Neck. Explaining who the Blackbrother was at Harrenhal.
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On 11/14/2021 at 9:35 PM, SFDanny said:

Lyanna is a girl of fourteen to sixteen years old when the events from the time of the Harrenhal tourney to her likely death at the Tower of Joy. She is member of an aristocratic family in which her role is rigidly defined. Yet the Lyanna we know is a young woman who rebels against that role time and time again. Think of her battle with the squires over their treatment of Howland Reed, the possibility she rides in the tourney as the Knight of the Laughing Tree, and her remarks about Robert's nature to Ned. Which is also consistent with the "wild" northern girl who rides like a centaur and trains in skills decidedly not approved by her father or much of Westerosi society. This is a portrait of a young woman fighting for her own way in her world, not just a tool of others. I call that "agency." That is even more so if, as I think is likely, Lyanna herself plays a role in her "kidnapping" or escape from an impending marriage to a man she wants no part of.

I agree with this sentiment to an extent.  And while I might be called a R+ L = J skeptic, I concede that Lyanna ended up having some involvement with Rhaegar.  And whatever involvement that entailed, must have had a voluntary component on the part of Lyanna.  

My personal belief is that it all revolved around Rhaegar’s belief in prophecy and how that dovetailed with what he must have believed was an upcoming “battle for the dawn”.

And yes, pretty much every theory I’ve heard (including my own) seem to deal with at least some measure of Lyanna’s lack of of agency involving her own future.  In that, I agree with @skullscarf.  And that has bothered me to an extent.

But my one take away from some of GRRM’s other works, is that this scenario seems to be a recurring narrative from his earlier works.  Namely, in a Song for Lya and in Dying of the Light.  Both stories deal with fairly strong women, who end up getting sucked into a cult, and end up sacrificing a good bit of their own independence/agency.  

And my view on Rhaegar, is that he very much seems to be along the lines of a cult leader.  Charismatic, secretive, and very goal oriented.  So I do wonder if GRRM is revisiting an old theme, a strong willed woman/girl willingly losing her independence into some cult or collective with grandiose goals.

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12 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Not only is having a paramour ok for Nobels in Dorne, but it appears to be ok for a Noble to be a paramour

that's a bit different with Quent and Dany : though he is a prince , she is a queen in possession of dragons; therefore, Quentyn would do anything to get those dragons and forge an alliance with the dragon queen. having said that, it is possible that Rhaegar and Elia had seen a third party/paramour/surrogate mother/ whatever else OK in their marriage .. after all , they were thinking of battle for the Dawn , prophecies and relating comets to their sex life. 

 

12 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Rhaegar needed to win Harrenhal too, so he couldn't have Mance beating him. Mance wants to give a blue rose crown to Lyanna though. Something i doubt Rhaegar would understand the symbolism of. Rhaegar has never even been to the North. How would he know about the Blue Roses or be able to get one? 

There are just too many clues left out by assuming Rhaegar is Jon's father. Those clues make more sense with Mance as Jon's father, while Rhaegar is Daenerys. Daenerys even has a vision where she see's Rhaegar, but when he lifts his helmet, its Dany.

I could accept Mance being Jon's dad... the blue bard story is the first thing that makes one think of an alternative to R+L theory that comes to mind in the first book. Mance and Rhaegar's acquaintance isn't impossible too. we do know that Rhaegar and Aemon were connected and I find it hard to believe they had never met in person. due to Aemon's age though , Rhaegar probably had to visit him at the wall (from Eastwatch instead of Kingsroad and Winterfell) ; so , Mance and Rhaegar could have met in the Wall.  Mance's singing skills and his amiable personality makes him a good candidate for speaking of night's Watch gallantry in a big tournament ( a parallel to Jon sending Dareon to southron castles to recruit) . ... BUT here's the problem :Mance cannot be glamoured into looking like Rhaegar to win a tourney

  •  first of all , he said he was skeptical of Glamour magic before Mel did her trick which suggests he had never seen that magic before ,let alone using it.
  • though Mance is a great swordsman , there is no indication that he had training with lance and jousting especially that he was trained at the Wall where you don't need lance to fight wildlings. we know people can be good at single combat and not jousting . an example of this is Robert who is skilled in the Melee and not in jousting.
  • Rhaegar was much younger and less experienced when he lost to Selmy .
  • unlike Mance , the knight of the laughing tree had small features.
2 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

But my one take away from some of GRRM’s other works, is that this scenario seems to be a recurring narrative from his earlier works.  Namely, in a Song for Lya and in Dying of the Light.  Both stories deal with fairly strong women, who end up getting sucked into a cult, and end up sacrificing a good bit of their own independence/agency.  

Rhaegar does sound like a cult leader . still , I haven't read those stories but wouldn't it take some time for the girl to finally be sucked into that cult? for example if she was more around that guy she would come to share his beliefs little by little but we can be sure Lyanna wasn't around Rhaegar or his friends/supporters after Harrenhal.

 

 

 

talking about tDwD reminded me of something

in Clash  Dany has a vision of Rhaegar's death with murmuring a woman's name with his last breath which suggests Rhaegar was either in love with that woman or cared about her a lot as a prophecy tool! we don't know the woman's name but Dany does, otherwise it would have been worded " he died murmuring something".. the only women in Rhaegar's life Dany is aware of are Elia and Lyanna; so, if the woman's name was X , Dany would be wondering and/or asking who X is. Therefore, we can be almost sure that Rhaegar and Ashara didn't have a thing .   ... later in Dance  Dany asks Barristan if Rhaegar loved his wife. she also thinks that Rhaegar abducted the woman he loved to save her from her forced marriage , something she wished Dario did for her. clearly Dany has heard Lyanna's name ... so, perhaps we should just accept the story of the lovestruck prince and the rebellious girl!... still, if I wanna push it, I'd say there's a chance of misinterpretation on Dany's part. after all , Elia and Lya (we know Ned used the short form of Lyanna ) sound a lot alike... everything can always be debatable :) 

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3 hours ago, EggBlue said:

Rhaegar does sound like a cult leader . still , I haven't read those stories but wouldn't it take some time for the girl to finally be sucked into that cult? for example if she was more around that guy she would come to share his beliefs little by little but we can be sure Lyanna wasn't around Rhaegar or his friends/supporters after Harrenhal.

In Dying of the Light, the protagonist’s meets up with his former girlfriend, and finds out that she’s married into a type of religious cult from her home world, so the conversion happens off screen.

In a Song for Lya,

Spoiler

the conversion happens pretty quickly.  Probably because it’s a short story so it has to, but also because the woman in question is a telepath and she ends up willingly joining a hive of consciousnesses.  So presumably she had reached out with her telepathic powers and quickly released how wonderful it was to give up her individuality and join up with the collective.  The protagonist in that story, while tempted, ultimately can’t willingly give up his individuality no matter how good it might feel.

All of this is based on my memory so I may be a bit off on some of the details.

As for this story, the one person that could have been in a position to have been around Lyanna post Harrenhal and also to have been a part of Rhaegar’s inner circle is Ashara Dayne.  So I suspect if Lyanna got sucked in, it was through her.  

That also might be the real reason that Ned doesn’t want Ashara’s name mentioned in Winterfell.  It might have less to do with Jon’s parentage and more to do with Ashara having been a corrupting influence to Lyanna in Eddard’s mind.  But who knows.

Edited by Frey family reunion
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4 hours ago, EggBlue said:

that's a bit different with Quent and Dany : though he is a prince , she is a queen in possession of dragons; therefore, Quentyn would do anything to get those dragons and forge an alliance with the dragon queen. having said that, it is possible that Rhaegar and Elia had seen a third party/paramour/surrogate mother/ whatever else OK in their marriage .. after all , they were thinking of battle for the Dawn , prophecies and relating comets to their sex life. 

 

I could accept Mance being Jon's dad... the blue bard story is the first thing that makes one think of an alternative to R+L theory that comes to mind in the first book. Mance and Rhaegar's acquaintance isn't impossible too. we do know that Rhaegar and Aemon were connected and I find it hard to believe they had never met in person. due to Aemon's age though , Rhaegar probably had to visit him at the wall (from Eastwatch instead of Kingsroad and Winterfell) ; so , Mance and Rhaegar could have met in the Wall.  Mance's singing skills and his amiable personality makes him a good candidate for speaking of night's Watch gallantry in a big tournament ( a parallel to Jon sending Dareon to southron castles to recruit) . ... BUT here's the problem :Mance cannot be glamoured into looking like Rhaegar to win a tourney

  •  first of all , he said he was skeptical of Glamour magic before Mel did her trick which suggests he had never seen that magic before ,let alone using it.
  • though Mance is a great swordsman , there is no indication that he had training with lance and jousting especially that he was trained at the Wall where you don't need lance to fight wildlings. we know people can be good at single combat and not jousting . an example of this is Robert who is skilled in the Melee and not in jousting.
  • Rhaegar was much younger and less experienced when he lost to Selmy .
  • unlike Mance , the knight of the laughing tree had small features.

Rhaegar does sound like a cult leader . still , I haven't read those stories but wouldn't it take some time for the girl to finally be sucked into that cult? for example if she was more around that guy she would come to share his beliefs little by little but we can be sure Lyanna wasn't around Rhaegar or his friends/supporters after Harrenhal.

 

 

 

talking about tDwD reminded me of something

in Clash  Dany has a vision of Rhaegar's death with murmuring a woman's name with his last breath which suggests Rhaegar was either in love with that woman or cared about her a lot as a prophecy tool! we don't know the woman's name but Dany does, otherwise it would have been worded " he died murmuring something".. the only women in Rhaegar's life Dany is aware of are Elia and Lyanna; so, if the woman's name was X , Dany would be wondering and/or asking who X is. Therefore, we can be almost sure that Rhaegar and Ashara didn't have a thing .   ... later in Dance  Dany asks Barristan if Rhaegar loved his wife. she also thinks that Rhaegar abducted the woman he loved to save her from her forced marriage , something she wished Dario did for her. clearly Dany has heard Lyanna's name ... so, perhaps we should just accept the story of the lovestruck prince and the rebellious girl!... still, if I wanna push it, I'd say there's a chance of misinterpretation on Dany's part. after all , Elia and Lya (we know Ned used the short form of Lyanna ) sound a lot alike... everything can always be debatable :) 

I dont think Mance was  glamoured as Rhaegar. I think Mance was the Mystery Knight with the White Tree on his shield. Mance likely being born at WhiteTree. The Tree on his shield represents where he was born.

 

A Game of Thrones - Daenerys I

And perhaps the dragon did remember, but Dany could not. She had never seen this land her brother said was theirs, this realm beyond the narrow sea. These places he talked of, Casterly Rock and the Eyrie, Highgarden and the Vale of Arryn, Dorne and the Isle of Faces, they were just words to her. Viserys had been a boy of eight when they fled King's Landing to escape the advancing armies of the Usurper, but Daenerys had been only a quickening in their mother's womb.
Yet sometimes Dany would picture the way it had been, so often had her brother told her the stories. The midnight flight to Dragonstone, moonlight shimmering on the ship's black sails. Her brother Rhaegar battling the Usurper in the bloody waters of the Trident and dying for the woman he loved.
 
A story Daenerys has heard (Along with us) numerous times from people who wouldn't know. Viserys is going off word of mouth. 

A Clash of Kings - Daenerys IV

. . . help her . . . the whispers mocked. . . . show her . . .
Then phantoms shivered through the murk, images in indigo. Viserys screamed as the molten gold ran down his cheeks and filled his mouth. A tall lord with copper skin and silver-gold hair stood beneath the banner of a fiery stallion, a burning city behind him. Rubies flew like drops of blood from the chest of a dying prince, and he sank to his knees in the water and with his last breath murmured a woman's name. . . . mother of dragons, daughter of death . . . Glowing like sunset, a red sword was raised in the hand of a blue-eyed king who cast no shadow. A cloth dragon swayed on poles amidst a cheering crowd. From a smoking tower, a great stone beast took wing, breathing shadow fire. . . . mother of dragons, slayer of lies . . . Her silver was trotting through the grass, to a darkling stream beneath a sea of stars. A corpse stood at the prow of a ship, eyes bright in his dead face, grey lips smiling sadly. A blue flower grew from a chink in a wall of ice, and filled the air with sweetness. . . . mother of dragons, bride of fire . . .
 
Could just have easily been Elia's name. Its a vision given by people trying to kill Dany. 
 

A Dance with Dragons - The Kingbreaker

"She will weep and tear her hair and curse the Yunkai'i. Not us. No blood on our hands. You can comfort her. Tell her some tale of the old days, she likes those. Poor Daario, her brave captain … she will never forget him, no … but better for all of us if he is dead, yes? Better for Daenerys too."
Better for Daenerys, and for Westeros. Daenerys Targaryen loved her captain, but that was the girl in her, not the queen. Prince Rhaegar loved his Lady Lyanna, and thousands died for it. Daemon Blackfyre loved the first Daenerys, and rose in rebellion when denied her.  Bittersteel and Bloodraven both loved Shiera Seastar, and the Seven Kingdoms bled. The Prince of Dragonflies loved Jenny of Oldstones so much he cast aside a crown, and Westeros paid the bride price in corpses. All three of the sons of the fifth Aegon had wed for love, in defiance of their father's wishes. And because that unlikely monarch had himself followed his heart when he chose his queen, he allowed his sons to have their way, making bitter enemies where he might have had fast friends. Treason and turmoil followed, as night follows day, ending at Summerhall in sorcery, fire, and grief.
 
Barristan even repeats old stories that make no sense. Given Daemon rebelled long after not getting Daenerys, its not for sure Daemon's motives. 
 

A Dance with Dragons - The Kingbreaker

"Best not." Ser Barristan stepped out alone onto the terrace gardens. I am not made for this, he reflected as he looked out over the sprawling city. The pyramids were waking, one by one, lanterns and torches flickering to life as shadows gathered in the streets below. Plots, ploys, whispers, lies, secrets within secrets, and somehow I have become part of them.
Perhaps by now he should have grown used to such things. The Red Keep had its secrets too. Even Rhaegar. The Prince of Dragonstone had never trusted him as he had trusted Arthur Dayne. Harrenhal was proof of that. The year of the false spring.
 
Barristan was not friends, or close to Rhaegar. If anything, Barristan knows nothing about Rhaegar that the common person in court didn't know already.
 
R+L=J is not a mystery. It is what we are more or less told repeatedly by in world people relying on rumors. As none were close to Rhaegar
 

A Dance with Dragons - The Griffin Reborn

"My lord does have one prize to offer," Haldon Halfmaester pointed out. "Prince Aegon's hand. A marriage alliance, to bring some great House to our banners."
A bride for our bright prince. Jon Connington remembered Prince Rhaegar's wedding all too well. Elia was never worthy of him. She was frail and sickly from the first, and childbirth only left her weaker. After the birth of Princess Rhaenys, her mother had been bedridden for half a year, and Prince Aegon's birth had almost been the death of her. She would bear no more children, the maesters told Prince Rhaegar afterward.
 
One of the few who knew and passionately loved Rhaegar. Mentions only Elia, and nothing at all of Lyanna. Jon would be just as catty about the woman who got Rhaegar killed, as he would the one who first stole Rhaegar from Jon. Both women are stealing Jon's love. Yet Jon doesn't see Lyanna as a threat? Despite that being the reason for the fall of his sweet lord
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4 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

In Dying of the Light, the protagonist’s meets up with his former girlfriend, and finds out that she’s married into a type of religious cult from her home world, so the conversion happens off screen.

In a Song for Lya,

  Reveal hidden contents

the conversion happens pretty quickly.  Probably because it’s a short story so it has to, but also because the woman in question is a telepath and she ends up willingly joining a hive of consciousnesses.  So presumably she had reached out with her telepathic powers and quickly released how wonderful it was to give up her individuality and join up with the collective.  The protagonist in that story, while tempted, ultimately can’t willingly give up his individuality no matter how good it might feel.

All of this is based on my memory so I may be a bit off on some of the details.

As for this story, the one person that could have been in a position to have been around Lyanna post Harrenhal and also to have been a part of Rhaegar’s inner circle is Ashara Dayne.  So I suspect if Lyanna got sucked in, it was through her.  

That also might be the real reason that Ned doesn’t want Ashara’s name mentioned in Winterfell.  It might have less to do with Jon’s parentage and more to do with Ashara having been a corrupting influence to Lyanna in Eddard’s mind.  But who knows.

Generally, don't cult leaders need a cult? Melisandre has Stannis, his wife, and the Island of Dragon Stone, along with a good base in Essos. Who does Rhaegar have? Jon Con doesn't seem aware of any cults, and I can't think of anyone else who would be in this cult except maybe Ashara and her brother. There is nothing to go on for this though so a bit of a stretch for me to picture Rhaegar sitting around like the Old Sparrow, giving long talks about Azor Ahai and the Prince that was Promised. How is he recruiting members? By force? By freewill?

Melisandre has converted Stannis. Could this not be the narrative repeat you talk of with out it being Rhaegar and Lyanna?

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