R + L = J v.167

[EggBlue]

2 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

I dont think Mance was  glamoured as Rhaegar. I think Mance was the Mystery Knight with the White Tree on his shield. Mance likely being born at WhiteTree. The Tree on his shield represents where he was born.

my bad then. I read your theory and I think you mentioned Mance jousting instead of Rhaegar at Harrenhal and crowning Lyanna , whilst being glamoured to look like Rhaegar. but that doesn't make sense to me due to the reasons I mentioned before. though , if you'd be willing to go with the theory of Lyanna being the  knight of the laughing tree ,then Rhaegar crowing her could simply be a gesture of respect rather than love or affection. this narrative could even work with your theory about Mance and Lyanna with Lyanna's sigil being a nod to her beloved's birthplace. 

[Julia H.]

21 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Seems a lil presumptive but ok. That's just pretty detailed for the lack of information we are given. We are simply told she doesn't think Robert is faithful or will be, and also that she thinks love is a "Sweet idea"

A Game of Thrones - Eddard IX

Ned let him prattle on. After a time, he quieted and they rode in silence. The streets of King's Landing were dark and deserted. The rain had driven everyone under their roofs. It beat down on Ned's head, warm as blood and relentless as old guilts. Fat drops of water ran down his face.

"Robert will never keep to one bed," Lyanna had told him at Winterfell, on the night long ago when their father had promised her hand to the young Lord of Storm's End. "I hear he has gotten a child on some girl in the Vale." Ned had held the babe in his arms; he could scarcely deny her, nor would he lie to his sister, but he had assured her that what Robert did before their betrothal was of no matter, that he was a good man and true who would love her with all his heart. Lyanna had only smiled. "Love is sweet, dearest Ned, but it cannot change a man's nature."

 

Doesn't sound much like she's into any married man pretending to "love" her. A cheater is a cheater. Rhaegar cheating would mean its in his nature, and "love" won't change a man's nature.

Besides, the books only hints that Rhaegar was interested because he wanted a 3rd child. No where is it implied that Rhaegar didn't love Elia, who he upset his father and Tywin to marry. So why would Lyanna want a man only interested in having a 3rd child to fulfill prophecy? Where is it implied that Lyanna was concerned about prophecy? 

The amount of bending things to make this work is weird. 

No, I'm not bending anything, and there is nothing presumptive about this. We know that Robert and Rhaegar are two very different types of men, with very different attitudes and personalities. It is totally possible that a girl does not want one of them and likes the other one. There is no reason why Lyanna should not see the difference between the two even if she does not give a complete lecture about it on page - actually, it is rather probable that she did see the difference.

A "cheater is a cheater" is a terribly simplified view. How many of us are there who have never ended an otherwise serious commitment due to a change of feelings or circumstances? That's very different from someone who is essentially an immature pleasure-seeker, unable or unwilling to think of consequences or responsibility and is continually looking for one-night adventures - married or nor married.

As for your other questions:

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Besides, the books only hints that Rhaegar was interested because he wanted a 3rd child. No where is it implied that Rhaegar didn't love Elia, who he upset his father and Tywin to marry. So why would Lyanna want a man only interested in having a 3rd child to fulfill prophecy? Where is it implied that Lyanna was concerned about prophecy? 

Well, this is about a completely different line of possibilities. Earlier, you had brought up the idea that Lyanna falling for Rhaegar did not make sense because she did not like Robert. I completely disagree with this because a girl not liking one kind of person does not necessarily prevent her from liking another kind of person. Now, if you want to pursue the idea that Lyanna and Rhaegar were not in love, feel free to do it, just find better arguments than "Rhaegar was just like Robert", which is simply not true.

 

 

 

[AlaskanSandman]

1 hour ago, EggBlue said:

my bad then. I read your theory and I think you mentioned Mance jousting instead of Rhaegar at Harrenhal and crowning Lyanna , whilst being glamoured to look like Rhaegar. but that doesn't make sense to me due to the reasons I mentioned before. though , if you'd be willing to go with the theory of Lyanna being the  knight of the laughing tree ,then Rhaegar crowing her could simply be a gesture of respect rather than love or affection. this narrative could even work with your theory about Mance and Lyanna with Lyanna's sigil being a nod to her beloved's birthplace. 

Its ok  Doesn't make sense to me though. Her home is Winterfell and the Wolf, not the Heart Tree. Plus the booming voice is not something we're ever told that she has. Mance on the other hand, we are told as much. Its what enables him to speak up over all the wildlings and command their attention. 

Other than Lyanna crying over his song, we are not told that Rhaegar knew her, or anything about the North. Including blue winter roses. Let alone, where Rhaegar would get Blue Winter Roses in a pinch.

  Plus, you're about to kidnap a woman you just crowned queen of love and beauty, out of nowhere. Was this on purpose so every one would suspect him? Is Rhaegar the dumbest c*nt that ever lived? (Insert best, The Hound voice)  Possibly. I mean, if you were looking to be secretive, that definitely wasn't the way to go about it. Why even sneak about stealing her at that point? Brandon Stark already thinks its Rhaegar who did it. Could've not given her the crown, and then stole her. 

 

Assuming Lyanna was the Knight, and Rhaegar met her. He met and fell for a woman in less than a day. Even Jon isn't that dumb. Only Tyrion, who was abused, is so stupid. 

 

I could very well be wrong. For me though, it just doesn't add up in the face of the other clues regarding Mance Rayder. Which connects more plot threads and makes more sense. Rhaegar and Lyanna isn't a mystery, its what we're told flat out by everyone. What is a mystery, is why if Rhaegar and Lyanna are Jon's parents, then why does not one single person suspect it. Despite suspecting Rhaegar of either raping or loving Lyanna. Not, one, single, person.

Rhaegar being Jon's father doesn't explain the double "extra Targaryen" thread with F/aegon. It doesn't explain why Varys neglects mentioning Aegon dying to Ned before he dies, and flat out confirms he's real to a dying Aegon. It doesn't explain how a girl, develops a booming voice with out her testicals dropping. It doesn't explain Ashara Dayne, Quaithe, or a few things. It wraps up somethings nicely, yes, but leaves way to much on the table unanswered. 

[AlaskanSandman]

1 hour ago, Julia H. said:

No, I'm not bending anything, and there is nothing presumptive about this. We know that Robert and Rhaegar are two very different types of men, with very different attitudes and personalities. It is totally possible that a girl does not want one of them and likes the other one. There is no reason why Lyanna should not see the difference between the two even if she does not give a complete lecture about it on page - actually, it is rather probable that she did see the difference.

A "cheater is a cheater" is a terribly simplified view. How many of us are there who have never ended an otherwise serious commitment due to a change of feelings or circumstances? That's very different from someone who is essentially an immature pleasure-seeker, unable or unwilling to think of consequences or responsibility and is continually looking for one-night adventures - married or nor married.

As for your other questions:

Well, this is about a completely different line of possibilities. Earlier, you had brought up the idea that Lyanna falling for Rhaegar did not make sense because she did not like Robert. I completely disagree with this because a girl not liking one kind of person does not necessarily prevent her from liking another kind of person. Now, if you want to pursue the idea that Lyanna and Rhaegar were not in love, feel free to do it, just find better arguments than "Rhaegar was just like Robert", which is simply not true.

 

 

1 hour ago, Julia H. said:

 

Yeah, kinda bending. You as the reader have been told these things about Rhaegar from Dany and her Targaryen loyalist. Lyanna, would have no reason to know these things about Rhaegar to be able to compare him to Robert Baratheon. Ashara was Elia's maiden, not Lyanna's. No reason to think they were hanging out and talking about Rhaegar. Brandon, Ned, and Benjen definitely were not talking up Rheagar. If Sansa had heard any truth to her crush on Loras, she'd have known she had no chance. No one told her he was gay. Sansa also knew nothing about anybody in Kings Landing. Till after spending some considerable time there. 

I don't think a "Cheater is a cheater" is a simplified view. If Rhaegar wants a divorce, he can try to get one. We are not ever told once that Rhaegar was unhappy with Elia, had anyyyyy grounds for a divorce. She provided him an heir, and a healthy daughter. Cheating on his wife, is exactly that. Cheating. 

Plus, Rhaegar upset his father, and Tywin Lannister, among other lords, for choosing to marry Elia. Which gained him no political advantages. Just to turn around and dishonor her, and her house, after she provided an heir. All to steal a northern woman. Not even make an alliance with the north, nope. He just upsets them, and everyone. Except Dorne, who still strangely fight for him. 

Did they not hear the rumor that Rhaegar had dishonored them and Elia and ran off with a Stark girl causing the war. Seems an odd move.

You're also assuming a lot of "Love" stuff in a world built on feudal alliances where women are pawns to gain power.  Which is exactly why Dorne would not side with Rhaegar after such a slight on their house. Or has Walder Frey more concern for his honor than Dorne?

Edited December 9, 2021 by AlaskanSandman

[AlaskanSandman]

2 hours ago, Julia H. said:

No, I'm not bending anything, and there is nothing presumptive about this. We know that Robert and Rhaegar are two very different types of men, with very different attitudes and personalities. It is totally possible that a girl does not want one of them and likes the other one. There is no reason why Lyanna should not see the difference between the two even if she does not give a complete lecture about it on page - actually, it is rather probable that she did see the difference.

A "cheater is a cheater" is a terribly simplified view. How many of us are there who have never ended an otherwise serious commitment due to a change of feelings or circumstances? That's very different from someone who is essentially an immature pleasure-seeker, unable or unwilling to think of consequences or responsibility and is continually looking for one-night adventures - married or nor married.

As for your other questions:

Well, this is about a completely different line of possibilities. Earlier, you had brought up the idea that Lyanna falling for Rhaegar did not make sense because she did not like Robert. I completely disagree with this because a girl not liking one kind of person does not necessarily prevent her from liking another kind of person. Now, if you want to pursue the idea that Lyanna and Rhaegar were not in love, feel free to do it, just find better arguments than "Rhaegar was just like Robert", which is simply not true.

 

 

 

2 hours ago, Julia H. said:

 

They are not a lot alike. But both are cheaters we are told. I can get a dictionary if it helps, no better argument. Rhaegar took advantage of a lot of things, lied, stole, and slept with another man's fiancé. Started a war. Sounds like a great guy. No body knew or understood him because he was an antisocial downer but sure, Rhaegar was a stud in all regards. Yes, when Lyanna specifically points out Roberts infidelity, meaning, Rhaegar doing the same to be with her, wouldn't likely woo her. Lyanna also doesn't strike me as dim as Sansa. More in the line of Arya, who would completely not fall for Rhaegar. There is no reason to think Lyanna and Rhaegar were in love other than a bunch of readers idea of the lowly girl falling for the prince. Like Lyanna could become the queen. If that was the case, im sure Rhaegar would have took her to Kings Landing rather than some tower in the middle of the desert. Must have been super romantic for Lyanna. Especially knowing that her family likely were searching for her, and by the time Rhaegar supposedly left her, she would have known there was a war. If not already knowing her brother and father had died. Or maybe noble kind good Rhaegar lied to her.

Edited December 9, 2021 by AlaskanSandman

[AlaskanSandman]

2 hours ago, Julia H. said:

 

A "cheater is a cheater" is a terribly simplified view. How many of us are there who have never ended an otherwise serious commitment due to a change of feelings or circumstances? That's very different from someone who is essentially an immature pleasure-seeker, unable or unwilling to think of consequences or responsibility and is continually looking for one-night adventures - married or nor married.

Now, if you want to pursue the idea that Lyanna and Rhaegar were not in love, feel free to do it, just find better arguments than "Rhaegar was just like Robert", which is simply not true.

 

 

 

To be fair, "cheating" is a term not always viewed the same depending on the age and time you live in. Being that they live in a Feudal, and religious and superstitious world, much like our own. Cheating in mind, is the same as cheating in body, per old school catholic ideology. So even if Rhaegar, never kissed or touched Lyanna until securing his divorce. He still lusted after another woman by this theory, making him a cheater. On a noble good kind woman HE chose, against all other options, including Lyanna. Who provided him a son and heir, along with a daughter. Securing his crown and future. A mother and woman in those times could do no better and be asked little more. Ask Henry the VIII. 

As free spirited as I am, I don't think my current world, or my views, are the same as people 4-700 years ago.  Women back then didn't have a lot of options, and men, not always so much either. Henry VIII had to literally break from the church of Rome and risk open war to divorce a wife that provided him no heir. Rhaegar has a heir. So it just doesn't make sense on any real level. At least imo. 

My theories though are built on more than just the complications of Rhaegar and Lyanna hooking up. Or Robert Baratheon. They are a part of it all, but not the only piece. As mentioned, Rhaegar and Lyanna leaves open to many threads that are easily dropped in a tv show, but not in a book they are already well established in. Edric Dayne, Ashara Dayne, Dark Star, Mance still being alive, Quiathe, Lemon Trees, and so much more.

This is definitely one of the most debated subjects though, so I understand the strong feelings towards peoples theories they get. I def get a lil snarky at the "Fairy tale" idea of Rhaegar and Lyanna in light of the political structure of their world but its all in good fun. I admire GRRM for his ability to get people so involved, including my self. 

Edited December 9, 2021 by AlaskanSandman

[AlaskanSandman]

If Rhaegar had won against Robert and lived. He would have lived to become Rhaegar the Unworthy, like his ancestor Aegon IV. 

Divorced Elia possibly. Dishonored her either way. Lyanna died in child birth.

So I imagine Rhaegar going on to his 3rd wife. Maybe Cersei this time? Ashara jumped to her death we are told so not her. Cat and Lysa might be freed up though after murdering Ned and Jon Arryn?

How do the R+L=J crowd imagine Rhaegar's future had he survived. His legacy.

Robert gained a following because people liked him. No one liked, or knew Rhaegar. A romantic idea best left an idea, for the reality is bitter at best, perhaps? 

Its almost a surprise Robert and Rhaegar were not friends. Rhaegar could sing and dance for Robert as he drinks and tosses him coin. I imagine them both old, fat, cycling through wives and talking about their good ol days had they both lived. 

It is a wonder why Rhaegar didn't just propose to Lyanna. Engaged to Robert Baratheon, or become engaged to the Prince and become a Queen. IF, Lyanna truely loved him. It would be the smartest political move to drop Robert like a bag of bricks and marry Rhaegar. Robert could throw a fit, but with the North now in Rhaegar's pocket, rather than Roberts, helps secure the Vale. Which is closer to the North and Kingslanding than it is the Storm lands.

Henry VIII stole a lords betrothed. Im sure Rhaegar could too. Kings Landing, the Vale, The Riverlands (Due to Brandon still marrying Cat), and The North from Rhaegar marrying Lyanna. Means Lannister wouldn't likely make a move against the Targaryens with his only possibly alliance being the Reach, and maybe the Stormlands. Dorne likely would side with the crown, having never been slighted as Elia never got engaged to Rhaegar cause he chose Lyanna instead.  Aerys didn't want Rhaegar marrying Cersei or his hands kids, and didn't like Dorne. So the Northern marriage may have been the best option to Aerys.  

If Lyanna and Rhaegar were in love, there were a ton of smarter ways to go about it.

Edited December 9, 2021 by AlaskanSandman

[Frey family reunion]

6 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Generally, don't cult leaders need a cult? Melisandre has Stannis, his wife, and the Island of Dragon Stone, along with a good base in Essos. Who does Rhaegar have?

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Prince Rhaegar’s support came from the younger men at court, including Lord Jon Connington, Ser Myles Mooton of Maidenpool, and Ser Richard Lonmouth. The Dornishmen who had come to court with the Princess Elia were in the prince’s confidence as well, particularly Prince Lewyn Martell, Elia’s uncle and a Sworn Brother of the Kingsguard. But the most formidable of all Rhaegar’s friends and allies in King’s Landing was surely Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning.

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If this tale be believed, ’twas Prince Rhaegar who urged Lord Walter to hold the tourney, using his lordship’s brother Ser Oswell as a go-between.

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With the coming of the new year, the crown prince had taken to the road with half a dozen of his closest friends and confidants, on a journey that would ultimately lead him back to the riverlands. Not ten leagues from Harrenhal, Rhaegar fell upon Lyanna Stark of Winterfell, and carried her off, lighting a fire that would consume his house and kin and all those he loved—and half the realm besides.

 

[AlaskanSandman]

2 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

 

I don't recall Jon Con talking about prophecy or Rhaegar giving spiritual lectures. Let alone being a spiritual guide of any kind. He's the only living person who knew Rhaegar, so his thoughts are not to be taken lightly.

[AlaskanSandman]

A Clash of Kings - Jon VI

"Well, long before he was king over the free folk, Bael was a great raider."

Stonesnake gave a snort. "A murderer, robber, and raper, is what you mean."

"That's all in where you're standing too," Ygritte said. "The Stark in Winterfell wanted Bael's head, but never could take him, and the taste o' failure galled him. One day in his bitterness he called Bael a craven who preyed only on the weak. When word o' that got back, Bael vowed to teach the lord a lesson. So he scaled the Wall, skipped down the kingsroad, and walked into Winterfell one winter's night with harp in hand, naming himself Sygerrik of Skagos. Sygerrik means 'deceiver' in the Old Tongue, that the First Men spoke, and the giants still speak."

 

"North or south, singers always find a ready welcome, so Bael ate at Lord Stark's own table, and played for the lord in his high seat until half the night was gone. The old songs he played, and new ones he'd made himself, and he played and sang so well that when he was done, the lord offered to let him name his own reward. 'All I ask is a flower,' Bael answered, 'the fairest flower that blooms in the gardens o' Winterfell.'"

"Now as it happened the winter roses had only then come into bloom, and no flower is so rare nor precious. So the Stark sent to his glass gardens and commanded that the most beautiful o' the winter roses be plucked for the singer's payment. And so it was done. But when morning come, the singer had vanished . . . and so had Lord Brandon's maiden daughter. Her bed they found empty, but for the pale blue rose that Bael had left on the pillow where her head had lain."

Jon had never heard this tale before. "Which Brandon was this supposed to be? Brandon the Builder lived in the Age of Heroes, thousands of years before Bael. There was Brandon the Burner and his father Brandon the Shipwright, but—"

"This was Brandon the Daughterless," Ygritte said sharply. "Would you hear the tale, or no?"

He scowled. "Go on."

"Lord Brandon had no other children. At his behest, the black crows flew forth from their castles in the hundreds, but nowhere could they find any sign o' Bael or this maid. For most a year they searched, till the lord lost heart and took to his bed, and it seemed as though the line o' Starks was at its end. But one night as he lay waiting to die, Lord Brandon heard a child's cry. He followed the sound and found his daughter back in her bedchamber, asleep with a babe at her breast."

"Bael had brought her back?"

"No. They had been in Winterfell all the time, hiding with the dead beneath the castle. The maid loved Bael so dearly she bore him a son, the song says . . . though if truth be told, all the maids love Bael in them songs he wrote. Be that as it may, what's certain is that Bael left the child in payment for the rose he'd plucked unasked, and that the boy grew to be the next Lord Stark. So there it is—you have Bael's blood in you, same as me."

"It never happened," Jon said.

She shrugged. "Might be it did, might be it didn't. It is a good song, though. My mother used to sing it to me. She was a woman too, Jon Snow. Like yours." She rubbed her throat where his dirk had cut her. "The song ends when they find the babe, but there is a darker end to the story. Thirty years later, when Bael was King-beyond-the-Wall and led the free folk south, it was young Lord Stark who met him at the Frozen Ford . . . and killed him, for Bael would not harm his own son when they met sword to sword."

"So the son slew the father instead," said Jon.

 

Jon is told by Ygritte, who essentially his father is, and where he was born. Mance Rayder took her back north, where she gave birth in the Crypts. Which is why Jon has visions of the Crypts. Benjen possibly knew, and why he took the Black.

[AlaskanSandman]

Just like Jamie tells Brienne of how he saved the City by killing the King. Both Brienne and Jamie being King Slayers, and Brienne being Dunks descendant explains Summerhall. Dunk is a king slayer. 
 

GRRM doesn't just throw the clues for these characters in other peoples chapters willy nilly, he puts it in their chapters to the character it matters to. 

This is why Daenerys, has a plot steeped in Lemon Trees and Dorne, and Jon has one steeped in the North. Daenerys is the child of Rhaegar, and why she sees herself as Rhaegar in her visions.

Edited December 9, 2021 by AlaskanSandman

[AlaskanSandman]

I know Viserys is used as a faulty narrator when speaking about Dragonstone. While I havn't come up with an explanation for Jamie and Viserys remembering the flight to Dragonstone different, but I had a thought I was curious if had been considered or mentioned before.

That the greatest storm to ever hit Dragonstone, was not a literal storm. Hence why Stannis, Davos, and everybody else fails to mention a storm.

The "Storm" was the Baratheons sieging the Island. Storms End being the end of the Andal Storm possibly (built to defend against the Andals), "Storm" being a metaphor for war. Like a Storm of Swords. 

If Dany and Viserys got away from Dragonstone before the "Storm" sank all the ships, then it would explain some of what happened on Dragonstone. Especially a Storm happening in Summer despite them getting storms in the fall and winter.

I still tend to think Jamie didn't actually see the Queen leave and that Viserys is remembering correctly. Yet, this would explain the Storm of Dragonstone, and preserve the integrity of his memories. He seems to get most everything else right about Westeros

[Julia H.]

@AlaskanSandman

Wow, it's amazing how much stuff you have brought up inspired by my observation that "a girl may like one kind of man and dislike another one". 

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You as the reader have been told these things about Rhaegar from Dany and her Targaryen loyalist. Lyanna, would have no reason to know these things about Rhaegar to be able to compare him to Robert Baratheon. Ashara was Elia's maiden, not Lyanna's. No reason to think they were hanging out and talking about Rhaegar. Brandon, Ned, and Benjen definitely were not talking up Rheagar. If Sansa had heard any truth to her crush on Loras, she'd have known she had no chance. No one told her he was gay. Sansa also knew nothing about anybody in Kings Landing. Till after spending some considerable time there.

Would you call Ned a Targaryen loyalist? We know he does not think Rhaegar frequented brothels. He muses on this when he has just witnessed the fruit of Robert visiting a brothel. Here is someone who is not a Targaryen loyalist (and is close to Lyanna) comparing Robert and Rhaegar with regard to their sexual behaviour, pointing out a difference (rather than a similarity) between them and clearly having a higher opinion of Rhaegar in this respect.

We don't know what or how much Lyanna knew about Rhaegar at various stages of her life, we don't know who talked about Rhaegar or who said what about him. He was the crown prince so not exactly a person who lived in obscurity. The amount or the origin of Lyanna's prior knowledge about Rhaegar can hardly be used as an argument for or against anything due to lack of information.

We do know they met. Even if Lyanna somehow never heard anyone mention Rhaegar (let's suppose this for a moment), she could surely form an opinion of him when she saw him. Yes, first impressions can be wrong, Sansa is a good example of that. But it is totally possible to form an opinion on someone based on the first impression (see Sansa again). It is also possible to fall in love with someone without having a ton of information about the person. 

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I don't think a "Cheater is a cheater" is a simplified view.

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But both are cheaters we are told. I can get a dictionary if it helps, no better argument.

A dictionary to prove that a cheater is a cheater? No one in the books has ever called either man a "cheater". GRRM does not like labels, he presents his characters, their dilemmas and choices in a complex way. It is you who call them both cheaters and say it means Lyanna must have had the same opinion about them. But in fact, it is your opinion that you want to force on Lyanna, you are the one who puts the same label on two characters who are presented as very different persons in the books.

Young Robert is not a "cheater" because prior to marriage or engagement, he simply has no one to cheat on. He does not "cheat" on his baseborn paramours, who cannot realistically expect him to be faithful, he just abandons one for the sake of another or because he's become bored by them. Yet, it's true that he cannot keep to one bed, meaning he has sex whenever and wherever he can, without any commitment. Lyanna thinks he will be like that later in life as well, because marriage will not change him, and she does not look forward to a life of marriage with such a man.

Where on earth are we told that she had problems with this from a strictly moral viewpoint? Whoever in this feudal world thinks that a young, unmarried man having sex with and fathering bastards on common girls is morally wrong? Lyanna's observation could well mean perhaps that she, personally, does not want to smell the smell of other women on her husband day by day, she does not want to have to deal with bastard issues, she does not want her servant girls to turn into her rivals in her husband's bed and so on. The world may not think it's morally wrong, but a woman can still find it awfully inconvenient. You can call Rhaegar a cheater, but nothing that we know of Rhaegar suggests that his wife had to suffer any such issues due to her husband's pleasure-seeking activities. 

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If Rhaegar wants a divorce, he can try to get one. We are not ever told once that Rhaegar was unhappy with Elia, had anyyyyy grounds for a divorce. She provided him an heir, and a healthy daughter. 

There is a lot we are not told. What exactly the relationships, the plans and game-changing circumstances were we are not told explicitly. We get hints and bits of information. We are never told that Lyanna loved Rhaegar. Perhaps she didn't. Some characters in world seem to think Rhaegar loved Lyanna, but, sure, anyone can be wrong. 

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You're also assuming a lot of "Love" stuff in a world built on feudal alliances where women are pawns to gain power.  

I do, don't I? Because I say Robert and Rhaegar were two different personalities and a girl could dislike one and still like the other? Yes,that's a lot of "love stuff" to assume. And certainly Lyanna coming to the idea of criticizing the sexual behaviour of a man who is to be her husband is a terribly modern attitude in this world of feudal alliances. But you should take that up with the author. 

I don't think the rest of your comments in the posts in which you quoted my post is strictly relevant to what I said. I have no problem with anyone building up theories and I'm not a Rhaegar fan. I like interesting and creative arguments and theories. But the "Rhaegar and Robert were both cheaters, therefore Lyanna was bound to have the same opinion of them" sounds a terrible argument in light of the complexity of the human lives and characters that GRRM presents and with regard to the fact that the books actually call attention to the differences between them.

 

 

Edited December 11, 2021 by Julia H.

[LynnS]

39 minutes ago, Julia H. said:

I like interesting and creative arguments and theories.

If RLJ is true;  I'm expecting the unexpected.  What if Jon is a dragon with an affinity for ice rather than fire?  What if he rides the 'ice dragon' instead of one of Dany's dragons?

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A Clash of Kings - Bran V

"Osha," Bran asked as they crossed the yard. "Do you know the way north? To the Wall and . . . and even past?"

"The way's easy. Look for the Ice Dragon, and chase the blue star in the rider's eye." She backed through a door and started up the winding steps.

 

  

[EggBlue]

17 minutes ago, LynnS said:

If RLJ is true;  I'm expecting the unexpected.  What if Jon is a dragon with an affinity for ice rather than fire?  What if he rides the 'ice dragon' instead of one of Dany's dragons?

 

well, Jon is already  riding the ice dragon if we consider the Wall to be that dragon; isn't he?! there is already some sort of symmetry between Jon in the Wall (ice element) and Dany with her dragons (fire elements) .. does it make any sense? :/  the problem with RLJ theory (other than some irrational out of character actions) is that it puts Jon in the middle of the story .. it represents him as a sort of balance between fire end and ice end... something he currently is not. 

[LynnS]

1 minute ago, EggBlue said:

well, Jon is already  riding the ice dragon if we consider the Wall to be that dragon; isn't he?! there is already some sort of symmetry between Jon in the Wall (ice element) and Dany with her dragons (fire elements) .. does it make any sense? :/  the problem with RLJ theory (other than some irrational out of character actions) is that it puts Jon in the middle of the story .. it represents him as a sort of balance between fire end and ice end... something he currently is not. 

Exactly, the Wall is the ice dragon and according to Mel it has power he can use if he wishes.  My point is, he's not in the middle but directly opposed to the fire side of the equation.  I see ice as dominant for him.   I don't think he represents the balance between ice and fire.

[Julia H.]

3 hours ago, LynnS said:

If RLJ is true;  I'm expecting the unexpected.  What if Jon is a dragon with an affinity for ice rather than fire?  What if he rides the 'ice dragon' instead of one of Dany's dragons?

  

The quote above is a great catch, and yes, I agree that Jon is associated with the Ice Dragon. 

Quote

"...he was old friends with the Ice Dragon, the Shadowcat, the Moonmaid, and the Sword of the Morning."

Of course, if the Ice Dragon association is significant here, all the others must be also significant. 

Quote

Jon searched the sky until he found the Ice Dragon, then turned the mare north for the Wall and Castle Black.

Hm...

Quote

The ice pressed close around them, and he could feel the cold seeping into his bones, the weight of the Wall above his head. It felt like walking down the gullet of an ice dragon. 

As @EggBlue said above, the Wall is a sort of Ice Dragon...

But there is also this (Jon talking to Tycho, who has just mentioned dragons):

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"Would that we had one here. A dragon might warm things up a bit."

Here he apparently wishes for a "traditional" fire dragon (the breath of the Ice Dragon is cold). Ah, those careless wishes heroes can make...

2 hours ago, LynnS said:

My point is, he's not in the middle but directly opposed to the fire side of the equation.  I see ice as dominant for him.   I don't think he represents the balance between ice and fire.

That's something I've been also thinking about. Jon seems to be 100% Stark, 100% Northern, 100% ice, and this "iceness" goes beyond his upbringing as a Stark and simply having no knowledge of his other heritage. There is nothing to associate him with anything that is Southern. Ironically, Tyrion thinks there is nothing of his mother in him, but the same may just as well be true with regard to his father. His name is Snow, he has a white wolf, he follows the Old Gods, he is Lord Commander of the Night's Watch, the Wall is his.  Yet, in the Night's Watch oath, we have this sentence: 

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I am the fire that burns against the cold

Also, this is what Qhorin tells Jon:

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if the Wall should ever fall, all the fires will go out

It may not be exactly a balance, but there are suggestions here for fire being part of ice sometimes. Like, I don't know, if sometimes the road to west lies through the east, then perhaps sometimes the road to fire may lead through ice?

Edited December 11, 2021 by Julia H.

[AlaskanSandman]

8 hours ago, Julia H. said:

@AlaskanSandman

Wow, it's amazing how much stuff you have brought up inspired by my observation that "a girl may like one kind of man and dislike another one". 

Would you call Ned a Targaryen loyalist? We know he does not think Rhaegar frequented brothels. He muses on this when he has just witnessed the fruit of Robert visiting a brothel. Here is someone who is not a Targaryen loyalist (and is close to Lyanna) comparing Robert and Rhaegar with regard to their sexual behaviour, pointing out a difference (rather than a similarity) between them and clearly having a higher opinion of Rhaegar in this respect.

We don't know what or how much Lyanna knew about Rhaegar at various stages of her life, we don't know who talked about Rhaegar or who said what about him. He was the crown prince so not exactly a person who lived in obscurity. The amount or the origin of Lyanna's prior knowledge about Rhaegar can hardly be used as an argument for or against anything due to lack of information.

We do know they met. Even if Lyanna somehow never heard anyone mention Rhaegar (let's suppose this for a moment), she could surely form an opinion of him when she saw him. Yes, first impressions can be wrong, Sansa is a good example of that. But it is totally possible to form an opinion on someone based on the first impression (see Sansa again). It is also possible to fall in love with someone without having a ton of information about the person. 

A dictionary to prove that a cheater is a cheater? No one in the books has ever called either man a "cheater". GRRM does not like labels, he presents his characters, their dilemmas and choices in a complex way. It is you who call them both cheaters and say it means Lyanna must have had the same opinion about them. But in fact, it is your opinion that you want to force on Lyanna, you are the one who puts the same label on two characters who are presented as very different persons in the books.

Young Robert is not a "cheater" because prior to marriage or engagement, he simply has no one to cheat on. He does not "cheat" on his baseborn paramours, who cannot realistically expect him to be faithful, he just abandons one for the sake of another or because he's become bored by them. Yet, it's true that he cannot keep to one bed, meaning he has sex whenever and wherever he can, without any commitment. Lyanna thinks he will be like that later in life as well, because marriage will not change him, and she does not look forward to a life of marriage with such a man.

Where on earth are we told that she had problems with this from a strictly moral viewpoint? Whoever in this feudal world thinks that a young, unmarried man having sex with and fathering bastards on common girls is morally wrong? Lyanna's observation could well mean perhaps that she, personally, does not want to smell the smell of other women on her husband day by day, she does not want to have to deal with bastard issues, she does not want her servant girls to turn into her rivals in her husband's bed and so on. The world may not think it's morally wrong, but a woman can still find it awfully inconvenient. You can call Rhaegar a cheater, but nothing that we know of Rhaegar suggests that his wife had to suffer any such issues due to her husband's pleasure-seeking activities. 

There is a lot we are not told. What exactly the relationships, the plans and game-changing circumstances were we are not told explicitly. We get hints and bits of information. We are never told that Lyanna loved Rhaegar. Perhaps she didn't. Some characters in world seem to think Rhaegar loved Lyanna, but, sure, anyone can be wrong. 

I do, don't I? Because I say Robert and Rhaegar were two different personalities and a girl could dislike one and still like the other? Yes,that's a lot of "love stuff" to assume. And certainly Lyanna coming to the idea of criticizing the sexual behaviour of a man who is to be her husband is a terribly modern attitude in this world of feudal alliances. But you should take that up with the author. 

I don't think the rest of your comments in the posts in which you quoted my post is strictly relevant to what I said. I have no problem with anyone building up theories and I'm not a Rhaegar fan. I like interesting and creative arguments and theories. But the "Rhaegar and Robert were both cheaters, therefore Lyanna was bound to have the same opinion of them" sounds a terrible argument in light of the complexity of the human lives and characters that GRRM presents and with regard to the fact that the books actually call attention to the differences between them.

 

 

I agree that it's an old fairy tale trope. The low born girl who steals away the man with a woman not worth him. Whether its she's just mean, a cheater, or some cliche thing. 

If Lyanna had time to meet the guy beyond a quick encounter, then maybe she would give him a chance. Assuming Lyanna is more like Arya rather than Sansa. Though we are not given this impression. We are told Lyanna would have wielded a sword if her father had allowed it, as Arya now has needle. Arya, seems very little interested in "Love" "Princesses" or "Married men". 

I don't think the set up is there despite a few misleading quotes from Ned.

 

A Game of Thrones - Eddard VIII

"We may not have a fortnight. We may not have a day. The king mentioned something about seeing my head on a spike." Ned frowned. He did not truly believe the king would harm him, not Robert. He was angry now, but once Ned was safely out of sight, his rage would cool as it always did.

Suddenly, uncomfortably, he found himself recalling Rhaegar Targaryen. Fifteen years dead, yet Robert hates him as much as ever. It was a disturbing notion … and there was the other matter, the business with Catelyn and the dwarf that Yoren had warned him of last night. That would come to light soon, as sure as sunrise, and with the king in such a black fury … Robert might not care a fig for Tyrion Lannister, but it would touch on his pride, and there was no telling what the queen might do.

 

A Game of Thrones - Eddard IX

Littlefinger shook the rain from his hair and laughed. "Now I see. Lord Arryn learned that His Grace had filled the bellies of some whores and fishwives, and for that he had to be silenced. Small wonder. Allow a man like that to live, and next he's like to blurt out that the sun rises in the east."

There was no answer Ned Stark could give to that but a frown. For the first time in years, he found himself remembering Rhaegar Targaryen. He wondered if Rhaegar had frequented brothels; somehow he thought not.

 

 

First time in years, though he just thought about him the other day. Im not sure Ned is a reliable narrator despite all the confidence in his thoughts. 

 

He uncomfortably thought Rhaegar? Why uncomfortably? Thinking of any body my sisters have been with, even the jerks, doesn't make me uncomfortable.

The threat of Robert to Jon? Jon is beyond the touch of Kings now. He's on the Wall, given up all lands, all titles, any children. Jon is safe and far from Roberts radar.

The only child Eddard fears for in regards to Robert, is Daenerys, and maybe Viserys. 

 

All the rest of what i typed is more or less to point out the logistics of them actually hooking up would mean. Nothing good. Its a feudal world and things don't work like that. 

Edited December 12, 2021 by AlaskanSandman

[AlaskanSandman]

On 12/8/2021 at 7:39 PM, Frey family reunion said:

 

I would think we would hear about Rhaegar being in a cult. They have no problem insulting the Targaryen's else wise. Yandel is writing a history book for the Lannisters. To paint the Targaryens as evil as possible to justify Roberts Rebellion and subsequent marriage to Cersei, leading to Tommen, would make sense. Word of Stannis and Selyse hooking up with the Red Woman, on an Island, made it way to court in the song of little birds. I would think that Rhaegar having a cult would make the rounds of gossip. 

[AlaskanSandman]

8 hours ago, LynnS said:

If RLJ is true;  I'm expecting the unexpected.  What if Jon is a dragon with an affinity for ice rather than fire?  What if he rides the 'ice dragon' instead of one of Dany's dragons?

  

I do try to keep my eyes open for the R+L=J theory. How it would work or what clues would work for it. 

Which is why i asked if the possible "Storm" dany reports from Viserys that hit Dragonstone, wasn't a literal "Storm" but a "Storm of Swords" or a battle. Viserys is seen as possibly unreliable in his memories when compared to Jamies thoughts or the lack of blocks in a castle built of fused stone when describing the storm tearing blocks from Dragonstone. Along with never being described as being torn up by battle. 

The blocks he is hearing is stones being thrown at Dragonstone to try to bring it down, but failing. 

Im currently trying to dissect what Rhaegar could have been up to, even if it involved Lyanna. There are so many moving wheels that are puzzling. Like House Hightower and there part in things, with the Martell wanting to attack them. 

Bran reports Rickon being beheaded but else where they report he was burned to death. I imagine Aerys using Wildfire in the thone room, and the wildfire not getting out of hand and burning the whole place down. Yet, it supposedly happened at Summerhall. Something seems off. Though maybe they just lied to Bran to spare him the details. Maybe Aerys had a way to put out Wildfire soon as it was done burning exactly what he wanted it to burn and no more. 

There are other things that Im curious about, but am not beholden to any one theory exclusively.