R + L = J v.167

[LynnS]

13 hours ago, Julia H. said:

It may not be exactly a balance, but there are suggestions here for fire being part of ice sometimes. Like, I don't know, if sometimes the road to west lies through the east, then perhaps sometimes the road to fire may lead through ice?

We have been throwing around some ideas about the sword in the darkness and the fire that burns against the cold on the current heresy thread, starting on page 12.

[LynnS]

7 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

I do try to keep my eyes open for the R+L=J theory. How it would work or what clues would work for it. 

I don't want to go too far off the beaten path for the thread; but I do think some of the old assumptions are wrong.  In my view Dany fits the prophecy for the PWIP and I don't think Jon will be king or the third head of the dragon if dragon riding is implied.  It seems to me that if he is a dragon by way of his father; then he's more likely to be an ice dragon.  That's something that hasn't been considered as far as I know.  I don't dispute that Rhaegar fell upon Lyanna and took her for reasons of his own.  I think we also have to consider that Rhaegar didn't get the prophecy right either.  Trying to make a prophecy happen usually doesn't work out the way you intend. Summerhall is an example of prophecy going awry. Jon doesn't strike me as the balance between ice and fire; but the opposite of fire.  Someone who will be central to the conflict between ice and fire.

[Julia H.]

8 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

I agree that it's an old fairy tale trope. The low born girl who steals away the man with a woman not worth him. Whether its she's just mean, a cheater, or some cliche thing. 

Well, Lyanna is not exactly a lowborn girl, and I think this is a rather twisted version of a fairy tale trope. In a real fairy tale, the prince is not married, and we don't know that much about Elia not being worthy of Rhaegar, apart from Jon Con thinking so, but the reason he gives (Elia was sickly) is not the strongest one I can imagine.

 

8 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

I don't think the set up is there despite a few misleading quotes from Ned.

First time in years, though he just thought about him the other day. Im not sure Ned is a reliable narrator despite all the confidence in his thoughts. 

He uncomfortably thought Rhaegar? Why uncomfortably? Thinking of any body my sisters have been with, even the jerks, doesn't make me uncomfortable.

The threat of Robert to Jon? Jon is beyond the touch of Kings now. He's on the Wall, given up all lands, all titles, any children. Jon is safe and far from Roberts radar.

The only child Eddard fears for in regards to Robert, is Daenerys, and maybe Viserys. 

 

All the rest of what i typed is more or less to point out the logistics of them actually hooking up would mean. Nothing good. Its a feudal world and things don't work like that. 

Ned is as reliable a narrator as it gets. I wouldn't just discount any evidence he gives until he is proven wrong. He has lots of reasons to think uncomfortably of Rhaegar, and especially so in light of RLJ. You may not care about your sister being with anyone, but Lyanna's disappearance with Rhaegar (which seems to be a pretty well established fact in world) was followed by a war, Ned's father and brother died, Lyanna died and left behind a son who would be in great danger if Robert should find out who he really is. After all, Robert still hates Rhaegar and he still hates (and fears) Targaryens, regardless of their age. The friendship between Ned and Robert has been tested by such issues. There is no way to be sure Jon would be safe if Robert found out that a son of Rhaegar was being raised in Winterfell. 

 

 

Edited December 12, 2021 by Julia H.

[AlaskanSandman]

17 minutes ago, Julia H. said:

Well, Lyanna is not exactly a lowborn girl, and I think this is a rather twisted version of a fairy tale trope. In a real fairy tale, the prince is not married, and we don't know that much about Elia not being worthy of Rhaegar, apart from Jon Con thinking so, but the reason he gives (Elia was sickly) is not the strongest one I can imagine.

 

Ned is as reliable a narrator as it gets. I wouldn't just discount any evidence he gives until he is proven wrong. He has lots of reasons to think uncomfortably of Rhaegar, and especially so in light of RLJ. You may not care about your sister being with anyone, but Lyanna's disappearance with Rhaegar (which seems to be a pretty well established fact in world) was followed by a war, Ned's father and brother died, Lyanna died and left behind a son who would be in great danger if Robert should find out who he really is. After all, Robert still hates Rhaegar and he still hates (and fears) Targaryens, regardless of their age. The friendship between Ned and Robert has been tested by such issues. There is no way to be sure Jon would be safe if Robert found out that a son of Rhaegar was being raised in Winterfell. 

 

 

Not low born in that she is a lords daughter, but not queen.

Its a trope and cliche used in manyyyyy chick flicks and rom cons. 

Quote

Romeo and Juliet get married in secret with the help of Juliet's nurse and Friar Laurence. ... Juliet is distraught by the news of Tybalt's death and Romeo being banished. Lord Capulet tells Juliet she must marry a man called Paris, not knowing she is already married.

 

It a cliche and and old trope.

 

 

If Robert killed Jon at the wall, why would the Watch ever feel safe or anyone going to the watch. It would disrupt thousands of years of establishment. Sending Eddard to the Wall, Janos Slynt, or anybody becomes pointless. I would think the Lord Commander would be the next to die, from his own men for lack of protection. 

 

The Whole reason to send Jon to the Wall is to keep him safe, and he is.

 

Ned thinks of Broken promises. His promise being to allegedly protect someone. The only person at that point he failed to protect was Daenerys. Not John. Robert was dead and Jon forever safe from his wrath. Makes no sense to my mind.

[AlaskanSandman]

52 minutes ago, LynnS said:

I don't want to go too far off the beaten path for the thread; but I do think some of the old assumptions are wrong.  In my view Dany fits the prophecy for the PWIP and I don't think Jon will be king or the third head of the dragon if dragon riding is implied.  It seems to me that if he is a dragon by way of his father; then he's more likely to be an ice dragon.  That's something that hasn't been considered as far as I know.  I don't dispute that Rhaegar fell upon Lyanna and took her for reasons of his own.  I think we also have to consider that Rhaegar didn't get the prophecy right either.  Trying to make a prophecy happen usually doesn't work out the way you intend. Summerhall is an example of prophecy going awry. Jon doesn't strike me as the balance between ice and fire; but the opposite of fire.  Someone who will be central to the conflict between ice and fire.

Im beginning to question the entire "Canon" narrative we are told. Including Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna, Aerys burned people in his Throne Room with Wildfire, Daenerys is who she thinks she is, and very much more considering Mance as Jon's father. Making Jon, completely of the Ice faction with no ties to the Fire side.

The more and more I look at Tywins actions in breaking up Rob's alliance with the Frey's makes me think of Tywin breaking up the Alliance the Starks had with the Targaryens. Rickard visits Aerys and Aerys then wants to extend the North and build a second wall north of the main wall by 100 miles.

Aerys then wants to build aquaducts in Dorne. With who Rhaegar weds into via Elia Martell.

 

How to break up the Martell and Stark alliance with house Targaryen? Frame Rhaegar for kidnapping Lyanna and dishonoring Elia Martell. 

Sansa being kidnapped by Bael(ish) when having been linked to Loras at the Tourney, makes me think of Lyanna being linked to Rhaegar via the Tourney, but being taken by Abel/Bael-Mance.

Tormund also takes Maege Mormont and fathers Alysane who even has his crooked teeth smile. Making me think the Wilding right of passage is to go south of the Wall and take a lords daughter like Bael did.

Pycell, Yandel, and Lannisters are to blame for the "Canon" narrative imo. 

 

[Julia H.]

5 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

It a cliche and and old trope.

Quote

Romeo and Juliet get married in secret with the help of Juliet's nurse and Friar Laurence. ... Juliet is distraught by the news of Tybalt's death and Romeo being banished. Lord Capulet tells Juliet she must marry a man called Paris, not knowing she is already married.

Well, it is Juliet who is already married (to Romeo) when she is told to marry another man. That's a very different situation from Rhaegar being already married when she meets Lyanna (which you brought up above as a "fairy tale trope"). 

10 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

If Robert killed Jon at the wall, why would the Watch ever feel safe or anyone going to the watch. It would disrupt thousands of years of establishment. Sending Eddard to the Wall, Janos Slynt, or anybody becomes pointless. I would think the Lord Commander would be the next to die, from his own men for lack of protection. 

The Whole reason to send Jon to the Wall is to keep him safe, and he is.

That somehow did not stop Cersei from sending assassins to the Wall. Rhaegar's son would be a personal issue for Robert, and, after all, it wasn't his choice to send Jon to the Wall. Yes, it was a way to keep Jon safe, but could Ned be sure? No. 

10 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Ned thinks of Broken promises. His promise being to allegedly protect someone. The only person at that point he failed to protect was Daenerys. Not John. Robert was dead and Jon forever safe from his wrath. Makes no sense to my mind.

Well, Robert's death removed the danger from anyone Ned had sworn to protect from Robert. But we don't know what exactly the promise was (Ned actually thinks of promises) and which parts were broken, according to Ned. 

[AlaskanSandman]

1 minute ago, Julia H. said:

Well, it is Juliet who is already married (to Romeo) when she is told to marry another man. That's a very different situation from Rhaegar being already married when she meets Lyanna (which you brought up above as a "fairy tale trope"). 

That somehow did not stop Cersei from sending assassins to the Wall. Rhaegar's son would be a personal issue for Robert, and, after all, it wasn't his choice to send Jon to the Wall. Yes, it was a way to keep Jon safe, but could Ned be sure? No. 

Well, Robert's death removed the danger from anyone Ned had sworn to protect from Robert. But we don't know what exactly the promise was (Ned actually thinks of promises) and which parts were broken, according to Ned. 

I could've listed a ton more examples and there are variations of them. Like Belle and Gaston in Beauty and the Beast. In Wedding Crashers, main chick was engaged to a cheater. I could go on but really, it is an old trope.

 

Cersei is hardly the most logical rulers out there. Robert for all his supposed fury, never sent assassins' after Viserys and Daenerys. It took his council urging him before he finally thought about it, but then regrets it and orders it stopped upon his death bed. Robert is not a cruel man. A drunkard yes, a womanizer, yes. A cruel man, no. Thats why people loved him. He forgave his enemies. 

I think Ned thinking of Broken promises after Jon is safe from dead Robert pretty much kills the idea that Jon is who he was protecting and failed to protect. The other broken promise if it involved Jon at all probably involved telling Jon the truth, not just lying to him.  

Though with Robert making him "promise". It brings to mind the idea that the "promises" were not to one woman. Ashara is still a moving cog in the machine. 

[AlaskanSandman]

11 minutes ago, Julia H. said:

Well, it is Juliet who is already married (to Romeo) when she is told to marry another man. That's a very different situation from Rhaegar being already married when she meets Lyanna (which you brought up above as a "fairy tale trope"). 

That somehow did not stop Cersei from sending assassins to the Wall. Rhaegar's son would be a personal issue for Robert, and, after all, it wasn't his choice to send Jon to the Wall. Yes, it was a way to keep Jon safe, but could Ned be sure? No. 

Well, Robert's death removed the danger from anyone Ned had sworn to protect from Robert. But we don't know what exactly the promise was (Ned actually thinks of promises) and which parts were broken, according to Ned. 

Space balls is by far my favorite movie that this trope is used in. Princess Vespa and Prince Valium hahah

[LynnS]

46 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Frame Rhaegar for kidnapping Lyanna and dishonoring Elia Martell. 

I wonder about the Ghost of High Heart and Rhaegar's solo trips to Summerhall.  It seems to me that he would seek out the wood witch responsible for the PWIP prophesy to learn more about it.  Highly speculative on my part since everything about it is off page; what if Rhaegar traded dreams for songs and was given some cryptic information about the wolf girl?  Did he recognise Lyanna at the tourney and know something about her fate.  He sings a sad song which most readers interpret as the song of ice and fire. 

But that is not really a song as much as its an unfinished story where everyone plays a part.  I think the song may have been Jenny of Oldstones with flowers in her hair.  I wonder if Rhaegar had foreknowledge of Aerys burning father and son and if Lyanna would also meet a fiery end the same as Jenny at Aerys' hand.  I wonder if he was comparing Lyanna to Jenny and this motivated him to give Lyanna flowers for her hair.  So in my off page version of RLJ; he took Lyanna to prevent Aerys from sacrificing her to the flames having been warned by the Old Gods through the GOHH.  

Edited December 12, 2021 by LynnS

[AlaskanSandman]

4 minutes ago, LynnS said:

I wonder about the Ghost of High Heart and Rhaegar's solo trips to Summerhall.  It seems to me that he would seek out the wood witch responsible for the PWIP prophesy to learn more about it.  Highly speculative on my part since everything about it is off page; what if Rhaegar traded dreams for songs and was given some cryptic information about the wolf girl?  Did he recognise Lyanna at the tourney and know something about her fate.  He sings a sad song which most readers interpret as the song of ice and fire. 

But that is not really a song as much as its an unfinished story where everyone plays a part.  I think the song may have been Jenny of Oldstones with flowers in her hair.  I wonder if Rhaegar had foreknowledge of Aerys burning father and son and if Lyanna would also meet a fiery end the same as Jenny at Aerys' hand.  I wonder if he was comparing Lyanna to Jenny and this motivated him to give Lyanna flowers for her hair.  So in my off page version of RLJ; he took Lyanna to prevent Aerys from sacrificing her to the flames having been warned by the Old Gods through the GOHH.

I have a hard time believing Aerys was burning people with Wildfire in his Throne Room only Lannister men are reporting that. Cat and Bran report no such thing. Jamie never once says as much to Ned unlike the show. Jamie is also a liar so i wouldn't believe when he tells Brienne. Barristan question what Aerys would do over something and thinks he would have the guy cut down. Not burned. Barristan never once mentions or thinks about Aerys burning people alive. 

We are instead told how dangerous, unpredictable, and hard to put out wildfire is. Yet Aerys is using it in his Throne room.

The Lannisters accounts, Yandel, and Pycell cannot be trusted. 

Tywin's wife had hooked up with Aerys. Tywin's marriage proposal was spurned, and Jamie made a kingsguard. Tywin was coming for blood and revenge and made up lies, and started the war by framing Rhaegar. Tywin's greatest gift is his ability at chess. 

[LynnS]

1 minute ago, AlaskanSandman said:

I have a hard time believing Aerys was burning people with Wildfire in his Throne Room

I have no reason to disbelieve it.  So I will leave it there.

[AlaskanSandman]

12 minutes ago, LynnS said:

I wonder about the Ghost of High Heart and Rhaegar's solo trips to Summerhall.  It seems to me that he would seek out the wood witch responsible for the PWIP prophesy to learn more about it.  Highly speculative on my part since everything about it is off page; what if Rhaegar traded dreams for songs and was given some cryptic information about the wolf girl?  Did he recognise Lyanna at the tourney and know something about her fate.  He sings a sad song which most readers interpret as the song of ice and fire. 

But that is not really a song as much as its an unfinished story where everyone plays a part.  I think the song may have been Jenny of Oldstones with flowers in her hair.  I wonder if Rhaegar had foreknowledge of Aerys burning father and son and if Lyanna would also meet a fiery end the same as Jenny at Aerys' hand.  I wonder if he was comparing Lyanna to Jenny and this motivated him to give Lyanna flowers for her hair.  So in my off page version of RLJ; he took Lyanna to prevent Aerys from sacrificing her to the flames having been warned by the Old Gods through the GOHH.  

Though your point about Rhaegar seeking out the ghost of Highheart is an interesting idea. He would know of Jenny of Old Stone and of the Ghost of Highheart likely. Having learned about her in the Riverlands would make sense. Him setting out with his friends could have been simply to find her, and have nothing to do with Lyanna. 

Rhaegar could simply make an offer to Rickard before kidnapping one of his fathers loyal lords. Rickard had visited K.L. and Aerys wanted to extend his lands. 

[AlaskanSandman]

3 minutes ago, LynnS said:

I have no reason to disbelieve it.  So I will leave it there.

https://asearchoficeandfire.com/

If your not interested in reading my theory where i've quoted who says what. You can search yourself. Its only coming from specific people who hate the Targaryens. Not even the Starks, who have reason to hate the Targaryens think Aerys burned Rickard. They think Rickard was beheaded. They have his body. So idk why they wouldn't think he was torched if he really was.

[LynnS]

Just now, AlaskanSandman said:

https://asearchoficeandfire.com/

If your not interested in reading my theory where i've quoted who says what. You can search yourself. Its only coming from specific people who hate the Targaryens. Not even the Starks, who have reason to hate the Targaryens think Aerys burned Rickard. They think Rickard was beheaded. They have his body. So idk why they wouldn't think he was torched if he really was.

Cheers. 

[AlaskanSandman]

5 minutes ago, LynnS said:

I have no reason to disbelieve it.  So I will leave it there.

A Game of Thrones - Bran VII

"And there's my grandfather, Lord Rickard, who was beheaded by Mad King Aerys.

 

A Clash of Kings - Catelyn VII

"They strangled Brandon while his father watched, and then killed Lord Rickard as well."

 

A Dance with Dragons - The Discarded Knight

Gingerly, so gingerly, the seneschal approached the head, lifted it delicately by the hair. "Admiral Groleo."

Ser Barristan glanced toward the throne. He had served so many kings, he could not help but imagine how they might have reacted to this provocation. Aerys would have flinched away in horror, likely cutting himself on the barbs of the Iron Throne, then shrieked at his swordsmen to cut the Yunkishmen to pieces. Robert would have shouted for his hammer to repay Bloodbeard in kind. Even Jaehaerys, reckoned weak by many, would have ordered the arrest of Bloodbeard and the Yunkish slavers.

 

 

[LynnS]

1 minute ago, AlaskanSandman said:

https://asearchoficeandfire.com/

If your not interested in reading my theory where i've quoted who says what. You can search yourself. Its only coming from specific people who hate the Targaryens. Not even the Starks, who have reason to hate the Targaryens think Aerys burned Rickard. They think Rickard was beheaded. They have his body. So idk why they wouldn't think he was torched if he really was.

I don't hate the Starks or the Targs.  I'm afraid of Euron though.   

[AlaskanSandman]

Just now, LynnS said:

I don't hate the Starks or the Targs.  I'm afraid of Euron though.   

That mad lads a different story

[LynnS]

13 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

So idk why they wouldn't think he was torched if he really was.

While Brandon was strangled, I don't think Jaime was lying when he said that Rickon was roasted in his armor.  Bran may be deemed too young to know the most horrific details and is given a somewhat sanitized version of events.  I think that Aerys was bent on destroying House Stark and I doubt he would have had any sympathy for Lyanna in his madness if he got his hands on her.

There is a sense that the old gods are ensuring that the next generation of Starks are born.  That seems to be accomplished through the agency of another person.  In Ned's case, he would have died at the tower of joy if it wasn't for Howland.  It may be that Lyanna would have died if it wasn't for Rhaegar.  

[AlaskanSandman]

21 minutes ago, LynnS said:

While Brandon was strangled, I don't think Jaime was lying when he said that Rickon was roasted in his armor.  Bran may be deemed too young to know the most horrific details and is given a somewhat sanitized version of events.  I think that Aerys was bent on destroying House Stark and I doubt he would have had any sympathy for Lyanna in his madness if he got his hands on her.

There is a sense that the old gods are ensuring that the next generation of Starks are born.  That seems to be accomplished through the agency of another person.  In Ned's case, he would have died at the tower of joy if it wasn't for Howland.  It may be that Lyanna would have died if it wasn't for Rhaegar.  

I mention that plausibility in my thread that Bran was given a watered down version due to his age. Yet cat says Brandon was hung while his father watched, then his father was killed. Why kill Rickard after Brandon had been hung to death when Rickard was already supposedly burning to death. Redundant to do.

Then there is the issue of the uncontrollability of wildfire to be using it in the Throne room with out burning the floor and everything in there. Tyrion accidentally lights his own ships on fire even. 

Then we are told wildfire cannot be put out easily and usually has to just burn it self out. So how is Aerys just burning people?

Barristan never thinks of Aerys as burning people and he served him. 
 

Only Lannister men are saying it and it makes it less than trust worthy to me. If Lyanna really ran off with Rhaegar, she was doomed from the get go. Didn't matter if Rhaegar saved her from her father. Dorne would kill her for the slight to Elia. Walder Frey did the same to Robb for his slight. It betrays reason and logic for Rhaegar and Lyanna to think there was any happy ending to their alleged love affair. If they even had one.

Edited December 12, 2021 by AlaskanSandman

[AlaskanSandman]

17 minutes ago, LynnS said:

While Brandon was strangled, I don't think Jaime was lying when he said that Rickon was roasted in his armor.  Bran may be deemed too young to know the most horrific details and is given a somewhat sanitized version of events.  I think that Aerys was bent on destroying House Stark and I doubt he would have had any sympathy for Lyanna in his madness if he got his hands on her.

There is a sense that the old gods are ensuring that the next generation of Starks are born.  That seems to be accomplished through the agency of another person.  In Ned's case, he would have died at the tower of joy if it wasn't for Howland.  It may be that Lyanna would have died if it wasn't for Rhaegar.  

If things had gone right. Lyanna would be married to the Baratheons, Targaryen loyalist, and cousins. Rhaegar would be married to Elia Martell. Brandon would be married to Cat. And Jon Arryn would be loyal to Ned Stark and Robert Baratheon. With House Tyrell already loyal to the Targaryen's. 

The Lannisters were the only ones left out till magically, for no reason. Rhaegar supposedly kidnapps his cousins bride and sets off the war. Which happened to benefit Tywin and get him everything he wanted. His daughter married to the King. 

Edit- Iron born were Targaryen loyalist and only rebelled under Robert and no Dragon Kings.

Double Edit- Im sure Aerys could've secured House Tyrell by wedding Maegery to Viserys when both had come of age.

Edited December 12, 2021 by AlaskanSandman