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R + L = J v.167


Ygrain
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Rhaegar didn't fund Harrenhal. Tywin Lannister did, framing Rhaegar who was friends with Oswell Whent. Drawing Aerys out into public allowing people to see Aerys and his long unkept hair and nails. Due to his paranoia driven by Tywin and Duskendale. 

Tywin sat back at the Rock and with a few carefully placed messages and actions, stoked Roberts Rebellion. 

Tywin also settled the dispute between Aerys and Braavos, by secretly being funded by Braavos to take down the Targaryens. Which is partially why Tywin is in debt to them.

Tywin who with a couple well placed moves. Put in Jeyne Westerling to break up Robbs alliance with the Freys, while poisoning Jeyne so she couldn't have kids. Then allowing Walder Frey who was dishonored by Robb, to kill him at a wedding with reassurances from Tywin and House Lannister. 

It fits his MO

I doubt Walder knew that Jeyne was just a ploy of Tywins, playing Walder for a fool.

Edited by AlaskanSandman
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A Feast for Crows - Cersei V

"Your father proposed the match," Lady Genna told her, "but Aerys refused to hear of it. 'You are my most able servant, Tywin,' the king said, 'but a man does not marry his heir to his servant's daughter.' Dry those tears, little one. Have you ever seen a lion weep? Your father will find another man for you, a better man than Rhaegar."
Her aunt had lied, though, and her father had failed her, just as Jaime was failing her now. Father found no better man. Instead he gave me Robert, and Maggy's curse bloomed like some poisonous flower. If she had only married Rhaegar as the gods intended, he would never have looked twice at the wolf girl. Rhaegar would be our king today and I would be his queen, the mother of his sons.
She had never forgiven Robert for killing him.

 

 
 
Its worth pointing out that the only Lannister who thinks about Lyanna at all. Is Cersei, who seems to think that Lyanna is why she wans't able to marry Rhaegar. Something her father told her? Is she ignorant to the fact that Rhaegar wed Elia Martel years before and already had two kids. Tyrion, Jamie, and Tywin don't seem to mention Lyanna at all. Like they know Lyanna really meant nothing to Rhaegar, or the War.
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1 hour ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Tywin sat back at the Rock and with a few carefully placed messages and actions, stoked Roberts Rebellion.

Well there is the game of thrones and then there is the song of ice and fire.

Quote

 

A Game of Thrones - Jon IX

Jon chewed his lip. The raven flapped its wings at him. "War, war, war, war," it sang.

"It's not," Mormont told him. "Gods save us, boy, you're not blind and you're not stupid. When dead men come hunting in the night, do you think it matters who sits the Iron Throne?"

"No." Jon had not thought of it that way.

 

Quote

 

A Storm of Swords - Samwell V

Melisandre smiled. "Necromancy animates these wights, yet they are still only dead flesh. Steel and fire will serve for them. The ones you call the Others are something more."

"Demons made of snow and ice and cold," said Stannis Baratheon. "The ancient enemy. The only enemy that matters." He considered Sam again. "I am told that you and this wildling girl passed beneath the Wall, through some magic gate."

 

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A Storm of Swords - Davos III

"The war?" asked Davos.

"The war," she affirmed. "There are two, Onion Knight. Not seven, not one, not a hundred or a thousand. Two! Do you think I crossed half the world to put yet another vain king on yet another empty throne? The war has been waged since time began, and before it is done, all men must choose where they will stand. On one side is R'hllor, the Lord of Light, the Heart of Fire, the God of Flame and Shadow. Against him stands the Great Other whose name may not be spoken, the Lord of Darkness, the Soul of Ice, the God of Night and Terror. Ours is not a choice between Baratheon and Lannister, between Greyjoy and Stark. It is death we choose, or life. Darkness, or light." She clasped the bars of his cell with her slender white hands. The great ruby at her throat seemed to pulse with its own radiance. "So tell me, Ser Davos Seaworth, and tell me truly—does your heart burn with the shining light of R'hllor? Or is it black and cold and full of worms?" She reached through the bars and laid three fingers upon his breast, as if to feel the truth of him through flesh and wool and leather.

 

Considering Rhaegar's obsession with the ancient prophecies and his part in it;  I suspect this is what he was most concerned about.  

Edited by LynnS
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@AlaskanSandman , the idea of Tywin orchestrating the rebellion is one of my favorite theories. although I have problems with figuring out how Ned doesn't seem to know a thing. and how had Kevan seen Lyanna to comment on her looks? .. did Rhaegar rescue her and took her somewhere else? did she get pregnant then or was she already pregnant.. perhaps at Harrenhal explaining why "bastards grow faster"? ....  it makes it like a detective novel where the one who had stayed behind and seems the most innocent is behind the murder. and it's not a far cry from the mystery of Jon Arryn's murder where supposedly Lannisters and Pycell are to be blamed while Lysa and Petyr are the murderers :) 

 

Yandel is an unreliable narrator but Jaimie is a whole other deal ... Jaimie was in a vulnerable state when he told Brienne all those things , so I can't see why we can't trust him. and Cat's version isn't necessarily a wrong version. if you think about it (and I warn you, you better don't:wacko:) , it makes sense that Brandon dies before his father: Rickard was burning and screaming and Brandon was reaching for his sword and strangling in the process...further he tries , more tight the rope gets. if his father's screams stop (meaning he has burned to death), he would lose hope and fall with grief instead of reaching forward for the sword. this stops the strangling business. meanwhile Rickard watches his son dying as he tries . it's a two way torture for both of them . and finally since burning takes longer to kill someone , Brandon dies first. it's only logical that Aerys orders cutting Rickard , giving him a "gracious kingly mercy" . so you see? Cat's version works. Rickard did see Brandon strangling himself to death before he was killed.

 

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9 hours ago, LynnS said:

Well there is the game of thrones and then there is the song of ice and fire.

Considering Rhaegar's obsession with the ancient prophecies and his part in it;  I suspect this is what he was most concerned about.  

I do wonder why we don't here of any houses speak of this ancient enemy. Seems Mel is the only one aware besides the Watch.

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28 minutes ago, EggBlue said:

@AlaskanSandman , the idea of Tywin orchestrating the rebellion is one of my favorite theories. although I have problems with figuring out how Ned doesn't seem to know a thing. and how had Kevan seen Lyanna to comment on her looks? .. did Rhaegar rescue her and took her somewhere else? did she get pregnant then or was she already pregnant.. perhaps at Harrenhal explaining why "bastards grow faster"? ....  it makes it like a detective novel where the one who had stayed behind and seems the most innocent is behind the murder. and it's not a far cry from the mystery of Jon Arryn's murder where supposedly Lannisters and Pycell are to be blamed while Lysa and Petyr are the murderers :) 

 

Yandel is an unreliable narrator but Jaimie is a whole other deal ... Jaimie was in a vulnerable state when he told Brienne all those things , so I can't see why we can't trust him. and Cat's version isn't necessarily a wrong version. if you think about it (and I warn you, you better don't:wacko:) , it makes sense that Brandon dies before his father: Rickard was burning and screaming and Brandon was reaching for his sword and strangling in the process...further he tries , more tight the rope gets. if his father's screams stop (meaning he has burned to death), he would lose hope and fall with grief instead of reaching forward for the sword. this stops the strangling business. meanwhile Rickard watches his son dying as he tries . it's a two way torture for both of them . and finally since burning takes longer to kill someone , Brandon dies first. it's only logical that Aerys orders cutting Rickard , giving him a "gracious kingly mercy" . so you see? Cat's version works. Rickard did see Brandon strangling himself to death before he was killed.

 

I def need to flush the theory out more. I get the impression the Targaryen alliance minus Lannisters had to do with expanding into Essos which may have threated the slave trade. Tywin teaming up with Braavos makes sense, but Oberyn has ties to Old Town, and Volantis that I don't fully understand yet.

That is an interesting point about Peter and Lysa, except who back then was like Baelish to do such a thing. Varys was around

Im not sure if I see Aerys being merciful after how horrible he supposedly was. I would think hed let him burn. Getting close enough to a man burning of wildfire to cut his head off may risk your life and spreading the uncontrollable fire.

Ned was a teen and never been good at mysteries really. Plus, why would he know. I think he suspects something, but anything provable Robert has just turned down.

 

And Jamie I think just keeps to the lie. He does wonder why he's telling Brienne. Like maybe its a practiced story, but who cares about telling her, since shes no one important anyways. Jamie not telling Ned that Aerys was about to blow up the city with all of them in it, seems odd. Jamie just literally saved Ned and could rub it in his face. Saved a million at least. 

Edited by AlaskanSandman
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38 minutes ago, EggBlue said:

@AlaskanSandman , the idea of Tywin orchestrating the rebellion is one of my favorite theories. although I have problems with figuring out how Ned doesn't seem to know a thing. and how had Kevan seen Lyanna to comment on her looks? .. did Rhaegar rescue her and took her somewhere else? did she get pregnant then or was she already pregnant.. perhaps at Harrenhal explaining why "bastards grow faster"? ....  it makes it like a detective novel where the one who had stayed behind and seems the most innocent is behind the murder. and it's not a far cry from the mystery of Jon Arryn's murder where supposedly Lannisters and Pycell are to be blamed while Lysa and Petyr are the murderers :) 

 

Yandel is an unreliable narrator but Jaimie is a whole other deal ... Jaimie was in a vulnerable state when he told Brienne all those things , so I can't see why we can't trust him. and Cat's version isn't necessarily a wrong version. if you think about it (and I warn you, you better don't:wacko:) , it makes sense that Brandon dies before his father: Rickard was burning and screaming and Brandon was reaching for his sword and strangling in the process...further he tries , more tight the rope gets. if his father's screams stop (meaning he has burned to death), he would lose hope and fall with grief instead of reaching forward for the sword. this stops the strangling business. meanwhile Rickard watches his son dying as he tries . it's a two way torture for both of them . and finally since burning takes longer to kill someone , Brandon dies first. it's only logical that Aerys orders cutting Rickard , giving him a "gracious kingly mercy" . so you see? Cat's version works. Rickard did see Brandon strangling himself to death before he was killed.

 

Sorry forgot this. Lyanna im sure was at Harrenhal, and Kevan was at Harrenhal. Just not Tywin. Jamie was present. No mention of Cersei so I assume she stayed at the Rock with Tywin. 

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The Targaryen alliance. Which included the North, and Giving them more land and a new wall. With Mance coming south, and Tormund coming south to father Alyane. Mix in that salve traders have discovered wildlings make good slaves. 

Im thinking the Targaryen's were going to expand into Essos and Aerys needed a full kingdom alliance so his efforts could be focused abroad. 

Martells are typically Targaryen loyalist since they wed into the family a long time ago.

 

This leaves me to suspect Illyrio and Varys (Who had come to court after Duskendale) and who are ok with slave trading from what we can tell. 

Old Town must have been in alliance with the Slave Traders.

Mance's red silk slash im thinking more and more is an agreement between Mance and Rhaegar having to do with this slavery issue and possibly the Others.

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The House of Black and White want to kill the Sea Lord of Braavos using Arya. The House of Black and White seems a minority faction compared to the Moonsingers. Plus one of them is in Old Town after Maester Walgraves key. 

 

Varys had the Dothraki he wanted to invade also which lovvvve slaves. 

 

Mix in Hardhome which I long ago wrote about and suspected as being hit for Slavery by slavers or dragon lords coming for slaves for their mines.

 

Im more and more thinking this is the actual Narrative. Events in Westeros were about to become more embroiled in foreign affairs. 

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1 hour ago, EggBlue said:

@AlaskanSandman , the idea of Tywin orchestrating the rebellion is one of my favorite theories. although I have problems with figuring out how Ned doesn't seem to know a thing. and how had Kevan seen Lyanna to comment on her looks? .. did Rhaegar rescue her and took her somewhere else? did she get pregnant then or was she already pregnant.. perhaps at Harrenhal explaining why "bastards grow faster"? ....  it makes it like a detective novel where the one who had stayed behind and seems the most innocent is behind the murder. and it's not a far cry from the mystery of Jon Arryn's murder where supposedly Lannisters and Pycell are to be blamed while Lysa and Petyr are the murderers :) 

 

Yandel is an unreliable narrator but Jaimie is a whole other deal ... Jaimie was in a vulnerable state when he told Brienne all those things , so I can't see why we can't trust him. and Cat's version isn't necessarily a wrong version. if you think about it (and I warn you, you better don't:wacko:) , it makes sense that Brandon dies before his father: Rickard was burning and screaming and Brandon was reaching for his sword and strangling in the process...further he tries , more tight the rope gets. if his father's screams stop (meaning he has burned to death), he would lose hope and fall with grief instead of reaching forward for the sword. this stops the strangling business. meanwhile Rickard watches his son dying as he tries . it's a two way torture for both of them . and finally since burning takes longer to kill someone , Brandon dies first. it's only logical that Aerys orders cutting Rickard , giving him a "gracious kingly mercy" . so you see? Cat's version works. Rickard did see Brandon strangling himself to death before he was killed.

 

A Dance with Dragons - Epilogue

She will never wash the stain away, no matter how hard she scrubs. Ser Kevan remembered the girl she once had been, so full of life and mischief. And when she'd flowered, ahhhh … had there ever been a maid so sweet to look upon? If Aerys had agreed to marry her to Rhaegar, how many deaths might have been avoided? Cersei could have given the prince the sons he wanted, lions with purple eyes and silver manes … and with such a wife, Rhaegar might never have looked twice at Lyanna Stark. The northern girl had a wild beauty, as he recalled, though however bright a torch might burn it could never match the rising sun.
But it did no good to brood on lost battles and roads not taken. That was a vice of old done men. Rhaegar had wed Elia of Dorne, Lyanna Stark had died, Robert Baratheon had taken Cersei to bride, and here they were. And tonight his own road would take him to his niece's chambers and face-to-face with Cersei.
 
Cersei and Kevan are the only ones to think about Lyanna. With Cersei never mentioning Elia. It seems Cersei viewed Lyanna as more a threat than Elia. Kevan seemed to think the same for some reason.
 
So two options.
A. Rhaegar liked Lyanna more than his wife and cheated. (Leaving your wife even in divorce for another woman I think may still classify. Maybe not)
B. Cersei and Kevan were not privy or a part of Tywins plan. 
 
Did Tywin tell Kevan, Cersei, or Jamie of his Red Wedding plot? It doesn't seem like any except maybe Jamie were aware. Jamie only because he crossed paths with Roose Bolton. Though, he may not have known how it would play out. Id have to look more to see if any of them mention prior knowledge. 
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On 12/12/2021 at 4:46 AM, AlaskanSandman said:

I agree that it's an old fairy tale trope. The low born girl who steals away the man with a woman not worth him. Whether its she's just mean, a cheater, or some cliche thing. 

 

 

On 12/12/2021 at 1:24 PM, AlaskanSandman said:

Its a trope and cliche used in manyyyyy chick flicks and rom cons. 

 

It a cliche and and old trope.

 

On 12/12/2021 at 1:55 PM, AlaskanSandman said:

Space balls is by far my favorite movie that this trope is used in. Princess Vespa and Prince Valium hahah

 

Well, if you use fairy tale and romantic comedy as synonyms, that explains a lot. In a real fairy tale, the prince is definitely not married with two kids when he meets the heroine. A romantic comedy with its clichés is a different matter. (The story of Lyanna is neither though.) And since you brought up Romeo and Juliet, that's again neither a fairy tale nor a romantic comedy, and the hero is definitely not married with two kids when he meets the heroine. But we don't seem to be talking about the same things, so there is probably no point in continuing this line of conversation.

On 12/12/2021 at 1:50 PM, AlaskanSandman said:

Cersei is hardly the most logical rulers out there. Robert for all his supposed fury, never sent assassins' after Viserys and Daenerys. It took his council urging him before he finally thought about it, but then regrets it and orders it stopped upon his death bed. Robert is not a cruel man. A drunkard yes, a womanizer, yes. A cruel man, no. Thats why people loved him. He forgave his enemies. 

Robert is not cruel but he has his faults. One of his faults is that he becomes irrational when it comes to Rhaegar, which Ned sees quite clearly. Even though Rhaegar has been dead for many years, Robert is still obsessed with killing him. In addition, he cannot get over having lost Lyanna. Finding a son of Rhaegar and Lyanna being raised secretly in the North could well trigger his thirst for revenge. He is a king and therefore he has power. One word of fury from him may seal Jon's fate even if Robert might regret that word later on.

On 12/12/2021 at 1:50 PM, AlaskanSandman said:

I think Ned thinking of Broken promises after Jon is safe from dead Robert pretty much kills the idea that Jon is who he was protecting and failed to protect. The other broken promise if it involved Jon at all probably involved telling Jon the truth, not just lying to him.  

Though with Robert making him "promise". It brings to mind the idea that the "promises" were not to one woman. Ashara is still a moving cog in the machine. 

So do you think that with Robert's death it would suddenly be safe to reveal that Jon is Rhaegar's son? Of course not. Robert is not the only person in the realm who might want to harm a potential Targaryen heir. Taking the black may make it less likely that the young man will be used against the current regime by anyone, but can't someone still think that killing the dragonspawn would be even safer than having him on the Wall? Would someone like Tywin hesitate for a moment between choosing "relatively safe" and "absolutely safe"? Would Cersei shy away from ordering the death of anyone she just imagines as even remotely dangerous for her power? No. 

In the case of Robert, Ned could at least have some hope of influencing him. In the case of Tywin and Cersei and others, there would be no such hope.

Jon, if his true parentage were discovered, would by no means be safe either before or after Robert's death, so his alleged safety somehow being an accomplished fact cannot be used to exclude him from any promises (broken or not broken) that Ned may have given to Lyanna. 

Perhaps we can agree that readers can only guess but, for the moment, cannot tell for sure what exactly Ned means by broken promises. It is not only that we don't know what exactly those promises (plural) were, we also don't know if Ned considers all his promises to a certain person broken or only some of them. Technically, it is also possible that he thinks of promises made to different persons, but what we do know is that Lyanna is the only specific person he recalls, on page, in connection with a promise. 

 

 

 

 

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On 12/17/2021 at 6:17 PM, Julia H. said:

 

Well, if you use fairy tale and romantic comedy as synonyms, that explains a lot. In a real fairy tale, the prince is definitely not married with two kids when he meets the heroine. A romantic comedy with its clichés is a different matter. (The story of Lyanna is neither though.) And since you brought up Romeo and Juliet, that's again neither a fairy tale nor a romantic comedy, and the hero is definitely not married with two kids when he meets the heroine. But we don't seem to be talking about the same things, so there is probably no point in continuing this line of conversation.

Robert is not cruel but he has his faults. One of his faults is that he becomes irrational when it comes to Rhaegar, which Ned sees quite clearly. Even though Rhaegar has been dead for many years, Robert is still obsessed with killing him. In addition, he cannot get over having lost Lyanna. Finding a son of Rhaegar and Lyanna being raised secretly in the North could well trigger his thirst for revenge. He is a king and therefore he has power. One word of fury from him may seal Jon's fate even if Robert might regret that word later on.

So do you think that with Robert's death it would suddenly be safe to reveal that Jon is Rhaegar's son? Of course not. Robert is not the only person in the realm who might want to harm a potential Targaryen heir. Taking the black may make it less likely that the young man will be used against the current regime by anyone, but can't someone still think that killing the dragonspawn would be even safer than having him on the Wall? Would someone like Tywin hesitate for a moment between choosing "relatively safe" and "absolutely safe"? Would Cersei shy away from ordering the death of anyone she just imagines as even remotely dangerous for her power? No. 

In the case of Robert, Ned could at least have some hope of influencing him. In the case of Tywin and Cersei and others, there would be no such hope.

Jon, if his true parentage were discovered, would by no means be safe either before or after Robert's death, so his alleged safety somehow being an accomplished fact cannot be used to exclude him from any promises (broken or not broken) that Ned may have given to Lyanna. 

Perhaps we can agree that readers can only guess but, for the moment, cannot tell for sure what exactly Ned means by broken promises. It is not only that we don't know what exactly those promises (plural) were, we also don't know if Ned considers all his promises to a certain person broken or only some of them. Technically, it is also possible that he thinks of promises made to different persons, but what we do know is that Lyanna is the only specific person he recalls, on page, in connection with a promise. 

 

 

 

 

The promise has nothing to do with Jon or Daenerys . The promise was to save Robert  .  Robert was the most miserable person in Westeros . R.I.P.

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On 12/12/2021 at 7:00 AM, Julia H. said:

Well, Lyanna is not exactly a lowborn girl, and I think this is a rather twisted version of a fairy tale trope. In a real fairy tale, the prince is not married, and we don't know that much about Elia not being worthy of Rhaegar, apart from Jon Con thinking so, but the reason he gives (Elia was sickly) is not the strongest one I can imagine.

 

Ned is as reliable a narrator as it gets. I wouldn't just discount any evidence he gives until he is proven wrong. He has lots of reasons to think uncomfortably of Rhaegar, and especially so in light of RLJ. You may not care about your sister being with anyone, but Lyanna's disappearance with Rhaegar (which seems to be a pretty well established fact in world) was followed by a war, Ned's father and brother died, Lyanna died and left behind a son who would be in great danger if Robert should find out who he really is. After all, Robert still hates Rhaegar and he still hates (and fears) Targaryens, regardless of their age. The friendship between Ned and Robert has been tested by such issues. There is no way to be sure Jon would be safe if Robert found out that a son of Rhaegar was being raised in Winterfell. 

 

 

If Jon was Rhaegar's son , the threat would not come from Robert . For as far as we know Robert has Lyanna on a pedestal , Jon would be  in Bobby B eyes a child born  of rape , he would not like it but there is nothing he can do .Now Tywin he would kill Jon . 

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On 12/8/2021 at 6:56 PM, Julia H. said:

No, I'm not bending anything, and there is nothing presumptive about this. We know that Robert and Rhaegar are two very different types of men, with very different attitudes and personalities. It is totally possible that a girl does not want one of them and likes the other one. There is no reason why Lyanna should not see the difference between the two even if she does not give a complete lecture about it on page - actually, it is rather probable that she did see the difference.

A "cheater is a cheater" is a terribly simplified view. How many of us are there who have never ended an otherwise serious commitment due to a change of feelings or circumstances? That's very different from someone who is essentially an immature pleasure-seeker, unable or unwilling to think of consequences or responsibility and is continually looking for one-night adventures - married or nor married.

As for your other questions:

Well, this is about a completely different line of possibilities. Earlier, you had brought up the idea that Lyanna falling for Rhaegar did not make sense because she did not like Robert. I completely disagree with this because a girl not liking one kind of person does not necessarily prevent her from liking another kind of person. Now, if you want to pursue the idea that Lyanna and Rhaegar were not in love, feel free to do it, just find better arguments than "Rhaegar was just like Robert", which is simply not true.

 

 

 

The problem is nowhere in the books did it say that other than when he crowned her, that they ever met .

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On 12/7/2021 at 3:06 PM, Julia H. said:

Robert sleeps with almost literally every young woman who comes his way. He fathers bastards left, right and centre without committing himself. He enjoys visiting brothels and chasing screaming peasant girls. He makes promises to get the girl and forgets them almost immediately. That's vastly different from a man who marries one woman and later enters into a relationship with another one and actually commits himself in both relationships. Rhaegar does not chase every woman prettier than a scarecrow and does not visit brothels. Lyanna is not Marianne Dashwood, who condemns "second attachments" as such, what she is appalled by is irresponsible promiscuity without any real commitment.

Rhaegar is far worst than Robert. Robert is an ADDICT , Sex ,food and alcoholism .While Rhaegar either under the influence of prophecy or lust kidnapped his cousin betroth .

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10 hours ago, BRANDON GREYSTARK said:

The promise has nothing to do with Jon or Daenerys . The promise was to save Robert  .  Robert was the most miserable person in Westeros . R.I.P.

Ah. That's something new.

10 hours ago, BRANDON GREYSTARK said:

If Jon was Rhaegar's son , the threat would not come from Robert . For as far as we know Robert has Lyanna on a pedestal , Jon would be  in Bobby B eyes a child born  of rape , he would not like it but there is nothing he can do .Now Tywin he would kill Jon . 

I can agree that Tywin could well be the greater danger, I even said somewhere above that Robert could be influenced by Ned whereas Cersei or Tywin could not. Of course, Robert could also be influenced by his love for Lyanna. Yet, I don't think it's something that Eddard can take for granted. That's why he notes Robert's ongoing hatred of long-dead Rhaegar. It is not healthy, and you never know whether it would be Robert's love of Lyanna or Robert's hatred of Rhaegar that would motivate him with regard to a son of theirs until you have seen him act. 

9 hours ago, BRANDON GREYSTARK said:

The problem is nowhere in the books did it say that other than when he crowned her, that they ever met .

Some time before the crowning, Lyanna wept over Rhaegar's song, which introduces the motif of emotions.

They may not have met before Harrenhal. I don't think it's a problem in itself, but there are obviously a lot of gaps in the story, whatever happened.

9 hours ago, BRANDON GREYSTARK said:

Rhaegar is far worst than Robert. Robert is an ADDICT , Sex ,food and alcoholism .While Rhaegar either under the influence of prophecy or lust kidnapped his cousin betroth .

Neither one is your ideal husband material, for sure.

Apart from addiction, Robert also has an unhealthy, irrational degree of hatred of all things Targaryen, especially Rhaegar. I the modern world, he could seek therapy for several reasons. (He is not the only one though.) 

We see Robert act and speak on page. We learn his story, we can judge him for ourselves. We see his faults and his redeeming qualities. We can understand his problems. The same is not true of Rhaegar. Whatever we know of Rhaegar is very little and comes from other characters' more or less biased memories. I wouldn't say Rhagear was worse than Robert until we know of him at least as much as about Robert. We know very little of what happened, but I think it's a safe bet that the general outcome is not what Rhaegar must have been planning all along. There may have been many things that went wrong despite other plans and we don't know why. There must be a lot of factors which would influence our opinions about the characters living before the current storyline if we knew them. 

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On 12/27/2021 at 2:33 PM, Julia H. said:

Ah. That's something new.

I can agree that Tywin could well be the greater danger, I even said somewhere above that Robert could be influenced by Ned whereas Cersei or Tywin could not. Of course, Robert could also be influenced by his love for Lyanna. Yet, I don't think it's something that Eddard can take for granted. That's why he notes Robert's ongoing hatred of long-dead Rhaegar. It is not healthy, and you never know whether it would be Robert's love of Lyanna or Robert's hatred of Rhaegar that would motivate him with regard to a son of theirs until you have seen him act. 

Some time before the crowning, Lyanna wept over Rhaegar's song, which introduces the motif of emotions.

They may not have met before Harrenhal. I don't think it's a problem in itself, but there are obviously a lot of gaps in the story, whatever happened.

Neither one is your ideal husband material, for sure.

Apart from addiction, Robert also has an unhealthy, irrational degree of hatred of all things Targaryen, especially Rhaegar. I the modern world, he could seek therapy for several reasons. (He is not the only one though.) 

We see Robert act and speak on page. We learn his story, we can judge him for ourselves. We see his faults and his redeeming qualities. We can understand his problems. The same is not true of Rhaegar. Whatever we know of Rhaegar is very little and comes from other characters' more or less biased memories. I wouldn't say Rhagear was worse than Robert until we know of him at least as much as about Robert. We know very little of what happened, but I think it's a safe bet that the general outcome is not what Rhaegar must have been planning all along. There may have been many things that went wrong despite other plans and we don't know why. There must be a lot of factors which would influence our opinions about the characters living before the current storyline if we knew them. 

Robert basically was destroying himself , Rhaegar was responsible for the deaths of thousands .

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3 hours ago, BRANDON GREYSTARK said:

Robert basically was destroying himself 

basically yes. especially when he hid in a brothel sleeping with whores in Stoney Sept while mourning for a lost Lyanna who was being raped time and time again, all while JonCon was hanging and threatening people who had helped our poor Boby! 

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  • 2 weeks later...
1 hour ago, SerDerrick said:

Well...the TV show confirmed that Jon Snow is the son of Lyanna and Rhaegar...and legitimate too as Rhaegar divorced Ellia Martell beforehand...so Jon has claim to the throne.

the TV show also confirmed that Sansa is Jeyne Pool , Jon Snow is Aegon Targaryen and Beric Dondarion  sells Gendry to a woman who most certainly wants to kill him. so, I'm not so sure anymore my friend.

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