R + L = J v.167

[EggBlue]

1 hour ago, Daeron the Daring said:

No, don't, I talked about it because it's not a big deal (at all). If it was, I wouldn't have mentioned it.

 

I completely understand you, really, and I think we still misundersatnd each other. In no way chasing prophecies is a good thing, that is shown by Stannis at the front page, and ultimately, by Rhaegar. If anything, it's a horrible thing. If prophecies can be true (let's just assume they can be true in ASOIAF, so there are things that are meant to happen), then those legit ones become fulfilled anyway, no matter what. But I doubt anyone can not fall for a prophecy. When, let's say, a prophecy is close, and the people invested and related know this to some extent, they always get corrupted by it, no matter who it may be. 

To get this over with, I am really thinking of the best possible example now, which is Star Wars. You know, the prophecy of the Chosen One, which actually is true. Now, wether Luke or Anakin was the Chosen one, the main issue still stands. Anakin was corrupted, the main reason of his downfall is most probably the first one, his childhood (if you don't count in some ass comic stories which overconfuse everything), which led to him not being able to lock out emotions as a Jedi would. That later on, put him into a relationship with Padme, who eventually became pregnant. Now, for a Jedi, this is all bad from the very beginning. Maybe not for me or you, the viewer, but it was certainly bad from a point of view. In any way, he went on a fucking rampage and sent a whole galaxy into torture and terror. In the end, he or his son is the one who brings the damn balance to the Force.

And even if you consider what the comics want to say about it (which pretty much explains how Sidius/the Emperor/Palpatine got so powerful that he managed to control the Midichlorians, and made them impregnate Anakin's mother), the example is still standing strong, since Palpatine created him so that he'll be his apprentice and heir. So all things considered, Anakin was created by the most evil guy you can imagine, then corrupted him  thanks to his f'd up childhood background even more. However, Anakin, with his son who can be considered some prophetical dude with evil background on the square, saved the Universe and brought balance to the Force.  So, eventually, the evil creation of the most evil guy saves the universe with his son.

And it's the same, in the sense that Anakin managed to do what the prophecy required, however, he is the cause to many things I don't have to elaborate on. Or if it's Luke, then the same shit goes on. His birth and role was all a requirement for the prophecy to work out ultimately. But that's how prophecies work, young padawan.

It ultimately doesn't mean bad actions are justified for the greater good because of prophecy. You may argue beside or against bad deeds for the greater good in real life, but not in fantasy. The difference is the existence of valid prophecies. In this case, this is meant to happen. If Jon Snow is the promised hero, he would've ended up being a thing regardless of Rhaegar's actions. It is Rhaegar who tought he has to take matters into his own hand, because he couldn't believe the prophecy would be fulfilled without him manipulating things (assuming that's the reason why some things happened). This just shows how easily we corrupt, and if prophecies were a real thing, I don't think a single person could evade falling into its trap.

And yes, if you microanalyze everything about this Chosen One stuff, then it's different form TPTWP, but it doesn't matter.

sure , I see your point of view. I just can't quite agree with it . so, I guess, agree to disagree?!

[AlaskanSandman]

On 2/19/2022 at 3:44 PM, BRANDON GREYSTARK said:

I don't think Dorne fought for Rhaegar . When Rhaegar fell at the Trident , the Dornish troops did not retreat to King's Landing as far as we know .They returned to Dorne even though Elia was at the Red Keep .

Lewyn Martell was killed and their forces defeated, while Eddard raced to K.L. where Elia was murdered. Likely, there was no way or time for Dorne to save Elia.

[FourRavensBlackOnWhite]

On 2/21/2022 at 5:19 AM, EggBlue said:

Jon on the other hand is something different ;since his supposed father was effectively working towards the end result that seems to becoming Jon's destiny . it would have been different if Rhaegar was merely a lovestruck, reckless prince running away from everything (like in the show) . but Martin has gone his ways to inform us that the dead prince knew what was coming , was preparing for it and his story with Lyanna -as implied- was a part of it. I'm not looking for some grand moral message . but from what I've read there are a couple of things Martin seems to be saying ; call it message , rule , whatever... RLJ does cheapen the effect of  one of these things that's already clearly established in his books ; something that he's telling us with  Stannis's story and verbalizes through Marwin : trying to act on prophecies not only bites you in the ass , it also doesn't remotely result in what you intended . because although Rhaegar and his loved ones all died as contrary to what he wanted , he had achieved his main goal nonetheless.   

 

I agree that prophecies "biting people in the ass" is one of GRRM's "thematic consistencies" but I think that could also argue against you in this case. Chasing the prophecy DID bite Rhaegar in the ass. He went out seeking to save the world from a threat that I am assuming he could not identify. He tried plenty of different ideas to see if they would fit, until he found Lyanna. Now, being blinded by this prophecy, he made a rash (or even calculated) decision to pursue it at the expense of all else, with no guarantee of success, as he had been wrong before. Rhaegar sacrificed his whole family and their future, in order to pursue a prophecy that he believed in. Was he right? Was he wrong? Doesn't matter. This is another GRRM example of a prophecy destroying someone's life ultimately on a gamble. I think the rule still holds here!

[C.T. Phipps]

You have to wonder what Rhaegar's plans were before his father utterly forked them over by killing two of the greatest lords of the land.

[BRANDON GREYSTARK]

On 7/25/2022 at 8:56 PM, C.T. Phipps said:

You have to wonder what Rhaegar's plans were before his father utterly forked them over by killing two of the greatest lords of the land.

What if that was also part of Rhaegar's plan . To save his father from Tywin and his BLAST conspiracy ?

[Lilac & Gooseberries]

On 7/26/2022 at 1:56 AM, C.T. Phipps said:

You have to wonder what Rhaegar's plans were before his father utterly forked them over by killing two of the greatest lords of the land.

To be fair he chose to elope with a girl and abandon his wife and kids while he knew that his father was a madman. He doesn't seem to be much of a planner.

On 11/12/2022 at 8:50 PM, BRANDON GREYSTARK said:

What if that was also part of Rhaegar's plan . To save his father from Tywin and his BLAST conspiracy ?

Wasn't Rhaegar also part of the conspiracy to overthrown Aerys?

[Many-Faced Votary]

On 2/20/2023 at 5:08 AM, Lilac & Gooseberries said:

Wasn't Rhaegar also part of the conspiracy to overthrown Aerys?

The Tourney at Harrenhal is now widely considered to have been Rhaegar's plan to effectively assemble a Great Council without the knowledge of Aerys, in order to discuss deposing him with many of the high lords of the realm. It was especially grandiose to attract challengers and audiences, and some people believed (probably correctly) that Rhaegar was funding it because the Whents couldn't afford such expense.

Unfortunately, Varys informed Aerys of these suspicions, and the Mad King attended the tournament (leaving King's Landing for the first time in years) to everyone's surprise, ending the conspiracy there.

This was also when Rhaegar started ruining his own image and the stability of the Targaryen dynasty by slighting his own wife Elia to crown Lyanna as the Queen of Love and Beauty.

[Mithras]

Me: Who are the actual parents of Jon Snow from "A Song of Ice and Fire" series?

ChatGPT: In the "A Song of Ice and Fire" series, Jon Snow is believed to be the illegitimate son of Eddard Stark, but it is later revealed that his true parents are Lyanna Stark and Rhaegar Targaryen. According to the story, Lyanna was promised to Robert Baratheon, but Rhaegar, who was already married to Elia Martell, fell in love with Lyanna and they secretly married. Lyanna died soon after giving birth to Jon, and fearing that Robert Baratheon would kill the child as he was a Targaryen, Ned Stark claimed him as his own illegitimate son and raised him at Winterfell. This revelation has significant implications for the story and its various plotlines, especially regarding Jon's claim to the Iron Throne and his relationship with Daenerys Targaryen.

[kissdbyfire]

On 2/24/2023 at 8:08 AM, Mithras said:

Me: Who are the actual parents of Jon Snow from "A Song of Ice and Fire" series?

ChatGPT: In the "A Song of Ice and Fire" series, Jon Snow is believed to be the illegitimate son of Eddard Stark, but it is later revealed that his true parents are Lyanna Stark and Rhaegar Targaryen. According to the story, Lyanna was promised to Robert Baratheon, but Rhaegar, who was already married to Elia Martell, fell in love with Lyanna and they secretly married. Lyanna died soon after giving birth to Jon, and fearing that Robert Baratheon would kill the child as he was a Targaryen, Ned Stark claimed him as his own illegitimate son and raised him at Winterfell. This revelation has significant implications for the story and its various plotlines, especially regarding Jon's claim to the Iron Throne and his relationship with Daenerys Targaryen.

So, we'd be better off debating chatGPT than some readers...

[Mithras]

1 hour ago, kissdbyfire said:

So, we'd be better off debating chatGPT than some readers...

I tried everything but ChatGPT doesn't make any predictions for TWoW. However, it considers RLJ as canon 

[Prince of the North]

On 2/25/2023 at 6:01 AM, kissdbyfire said:

So, we'd be better off debating chatGPT than some readers...

Sure!  ChatGPT doesn't have an agenda or any ulterior motives.  Uh, at least...not yet

[Bael's Bastard]

On 11/12/2022 at 3:50 PM, BRANDON GREYSTARK said:

What if that was also part of Rhaegar's plan . To save his father from Tywin and his BLAST conspiracy ?

There was no such conspiracy, as demonstrated by the fact that Tywin was still trying to finagle a Cersei/Rhaegar match after Elia and Rhaegar were already married and had a kid.

[Kal-L]

On 2/23/2023 at 9:41 AM, Many-Faced Votary said:

This was also when Rhaegar started ruining his own image and the stability of the Targaryen dynasty by slighting his own wife Elia to crown Lyanna as the Queen of Love and Beauty.

It didn't. Because somehow, for some unfathomable reasons, no matter how rash or foolish Rhaegar's acts appeared, his character is never judged in consequences to them (he is the only character in that case).

On 2/20/2023 at 2:08 PM, Lilac & Gooseberries said:

Wasn't Rhaegar also part of the conspiracy to overthrown Aerys?

When we look at their respective acts from the Tourney of Harrenhal to the end of the Rebellion, when did father and son ever act against each other ?

For all these rumours about their supposed antagonism, their actions spoke a very different tale. Aerys literally declared war to his powerful vassals in attempt to clear the paths to whatever project Rhaegar had with Rickard Stark's daughter. Rhaegar in his case went to war in the name of his father against those said rebels.

House Targaryen seems like an unified bloc, don't you think ?

[corbon]

On 8/19/2023 at 12:49 AM, Kal-L said:

It didn't. Because somehow, for some unfathomable reasons, no matter how rash or foolish Rhaegar's acts appeared, his character is never judged in consequences to them (he is the only character in that case).

The reason is not unfathomable. We are given quite clearly and explicitly, Rhaegar's character, from a source that is about as reliable as any source for any indirect data in the books - someone who knew him personally and spent time around him his whole life, but was not close enough to be an inner circle member (higher potential bias).
By contrast, the 'acts' are entirely 'mysterious'. We don't know very much at all about what happened exactly, we don't know who was involved, who was informed, what anyone knew or did not know.

Astute readers attempt to interpret the mysterious 'acts' in light in the known character of the actor. 
Other readers assume they understand the 'acts' (despite the almost complete lack of information) because they know some of the apparent consequences, and insist that therefore the character of the actor is in fact the exact opposite of what GRRM has given us. IMO that reveals more about those readers than anything in ASoIaF.

On 8/19/2023 at 12:49 AM, Kal-L said:

When we look at their respective acts from the Tourney of Harrenhal to the end of the Rebellion, when did father and son ever act against each other ?

For all these rumours about their supposed antagonism, their actions spoke a very different tale. Aerys literally declared war to his powerful vassals in attempt to clear the paths to whatever project Rhaegar had with Rickard Stark's daughter. Rhaegar in his case went to war in the name of his father against those said rebels.

I'm not sure we have any indication that Aerys declared was 'to clear the paths for whatever project Rhaegar had...'. It seems to me a much simpler case of paranoid and unstable Aerys simply brooked no defiance of any kind to House Targaryen and caused (as opposed to declared) war through his utterly reasonable conduct.

On 8/19/2023 at 12:49 AM, Kal-L said:

House Targaryen seems like an unified bloc, don't you think ?

Yes.
Prior to the events at Harrenhal, it seems that there are the usual courtly drama and factions/blocs. House Targaryen is not disunited, but there are 'old guard' factions that are largely close to (the older) Aerys, and 'young buck' factions associated with (young gun) Rhaegar. I don't see this as anything more significant than the usual power jostling at any court. The real major players - the Great Houses, Lannister, Stark, Greyjoy, Tully, Tyrell, Baratheon, Arryn - don't seem to be significantly involved in this minor court intrigue stuff.
OTOH, Aerys is clearly increasingly unstable after the Defiance of Duskendale. Clearly that is not good for House Targaryen, but Rhaegar appears to have been looking for a legal and stable way for the crown to pass on from Aerys without damaging House Targaryen (the supposed great council at Harrenhal, which was stalled by Aerys' un-typical decision to leave KL and attend. While this is a friction of a sort between Aerys and Rhaegar obviously, and needs to be done quietly and discreetly in order not to aggravate an unstable king, its not a disunity within House Targaryen.
There may well have been deeper and more meaningful intrigues between the major houses against House Targaryen (IMO likely due to Aerys' increasing instability more than anything else) but these appear to be happening away from court and be a different thing entirely, unrelated directly to internal Targaryen politics. We have hints of such and some fairly credible theories around these intrigues.

When the time comes, Aerys called for Rhaegar to command his armies. And when Rhaegar did return he had command, including the assignations of Aerys' personal guards (per Jaime's conversation about being allowed to join the army instead of staying to guard Aerys).
Further, even at Harrenhal, when Aerys was upset by the KotLT's actions (which it seems he suspected to be Jaime operating in defiance of his orders), the man he put in charge of investigating was Rhaegar.
When push comes to shove, Aerys goes to Rhaegar every time.
Able and dutiful.

Theories about internal antagonisms within House Targaryen seem to me to be flawed understandings of both smaller and larger pictures and based on a few relatively unimportant events.