corbon Posted July 6, 2020 Share Posted July 6, 2020 On 7/4/2020 at 10:36 AM, Lord Varys said: We have confirmation that at least one person in addition to Robert believes Wylla is Jon Snow's mother. A person where you would have to actually establish how and why Ned 'tricked them' into believing Wylla is the mother without actually saying it. There is no reason Ned had to 'trick' anyone. If he rides in to Starfall with Wylla and Jon in tow, has Jon treated as his son, he doesn't need to say anything at all. People will make their own conclusions, thats what people do. On 7/4/2020 at 10:36 AM, Lord Varys said: This is all irrelevant while you cannot tell me who Wylla actually is and where she was. All we know about 'Wylla' is that there is no mention of her, or any other woman like her, on any connection with Ned except with Jon. There is no hint in Ned's thoughts, deeds or character, nor in anyone else's recollections who was around him, of him being 'with' any women. Robert thinks it was his 'one time' in other words, there were no times that Robert knows of, just this one that he wasn't around for. Robert literally complains Ned was a stick up his ass, too much honour, never a boy having fun, type, even in his youth. There is also no mention of Wylla or any woman leading up to the Tower of Joy. Ned and 6 male companions rode up. No Wylla. Yet by the time he's at Starfall, Wylla is around and people are clearly guessing she's Jon's mother. For Wylla to have been Jon;s mother, Ned's squeeze, she needs to have been around Ned before. And she hneeds to have a reason to have 'appeared' in Dorne between pre-ToJ and Starfall. On 7/4/2020 at 10:36 AM, Lord Varys said: That is neither 'the apparent' nor the 'most likely answer' - it is just something you pulled out of your ass. All we know about Wylla is that she ended up the wetnurse of Edric Dayne at Starfall. We don't know whether she was 'a Dornish native' nor that she lived at Starfall before she was Edric Dayne's wetnurse. Thats right. I'm the one pulling answers out of my ass. Would those be statements like "people don't enquire about bastards, as we know"? If you ever had any credibility you loaded it into a cannon and blew it to shreds with that statement! I'm not the one making definitive statements here. I'm pointing out entirely reasonable possibilities that counter definitive statements that have been made by others that simply don't fit the available evidence. I agree we don't 'know' she was a Dornish native. Or that she had lived at Starfall before meeting Ned. What we do know is that she first appears out of thin air (as far as we are concerned) somewhere in Dorne. She acts as Jon's wetnurse for a time. She later has a long term position at Starfall and was Edric Dayne's wetnurse. Here are some interesting other data points. i) Jon appeared after the ToJ fight and at or before Starfall. ii) Starfall believes Wylla is his mother, not Ashara. iii) Lyanna Stark is very tightly connected to ToJ(by the title of Ned's dream and her voice there) and probably died there. iv) a baby without a mother, or with a sick or weak mother, needs a wetnurse v) Arthur Dayne was at ToJ. Where did she come from and why was she chosen as Jon;s wetnurse by Ned or his predecessors as Jon's wetnurse? Why is she given a position at Starfall after nursing Jon? I don;t think its unreasonable to posit potential answers to these questions that fit well with these know facts and other data points. On 7/4/2020 at 10:36 AM, Lord Varys said: In fact, Ned would have to be an utter moron - especially in your weird scenario where everybody and their grandmother try to sniff out the truth behind lordly bastards Thats you making shit up. A small number of people try, sometimes. The rest make assumptions. On 7/4/2020 at 10:36 AM, Lord Varys said: - to make the Wylla woman his bastard's mother in any scenario if he only met her at Starfall. Because then Ned would have arrived there with a child that was clearly motherless and, more importantly, could not possibly be Wylla's child. The entire castle would know that she wasn't Jon Snow's mother and it would make no sense that anyone would ever tell Edric Dayne that nonsensical story. Exactly. Therefore Wylla was with Ned and Jon already when he arrived at Starfall. Which perfectly explains why Starfall (and Robert) think Wylla is the mother. Ned rides up with a baby and a woman nursing him. The woman is clearly not noble and not his wife, but he has the baby cared for as though his son. the obvious (only possibility with some support) inference, unless Ned says something, is that the woman is the child's mother. Ned has no need to spin a story. He merely has the child treated as his bastard, and people will form their own conclusions in lieu of other evidence. On 7/4/2020 at 10:36 AM, Lord Varys said: None of the Daynes but, perhaps, Ashara had any reason to be complicit in some sort of weird 'protect Jon Snow scheme' - and Ashara Dayne died shortly thereafter, and was never the ruler of Starfall, anyway - especially since this Eddard Stark fellow actually slew Ser Arthur Dayne, Ashara's brother and the brother of the Lord of Starfall, Edric's father. Most people would have better things to do than to help this guy to obscure the identity of a child. There is no 'protection racket'. No one is 'obscuring anything on Ned's behalf. They just make the most reasonable inferences from what they see. On 7/4/2020 at 10:36 AM, Lord Varys said: Ned just shows who is boss in Winterfell and their marriage. He is the lord husband, and he calls the shots. He doesn't want to talk about Jon Snow, period. Especially not back then when the wounds were still fresh. I mean, if he wanted to do some more misdirection while not react less harshly and sort of allow Cat 'to conclude' that Ashara was Jon's mother? Its pretty clear he's not just showing who calls the shots. He's icy angry and scares Cat for the only time. He's not hurting, protecting wounds, he's angry, protecting secrets. As I've said, time and time again, Ned's not busy 'misdirecting' anything. His policy is 'shutting down' anything he can. That incidentally results in people, everywhere, making their own guesses based on the limited information they have. Thats why the 'story' is different everywhere. Ned says as little as possible - to most people thats nothing at all except to call Jon his son or his blood. At Starfall they say Wylla was the mother, but Ashara was the love - they saw the arrival, but added the Ashara bit out of Allyria's romanticism is my guess. Harwin thinks the Ashara-lover story is unlikely. Robert says Wylla was the mother (but ignores Ashara). Cat hears about this beautiful and tragic noblewoman, and guesses Ashara. The Stepstones put together the fisherman's daughter scenario. On 7/4/2020 at 10:36 AM, Lord Varys said: Why not allow that rumor to thrive instead of shutting it down? That would fit much better with the idea that Ned didn't actually tell Robert Wylla was Jon's mother. Because Ned's not a master plotter, cleverly messing with everyone's heads, he's a simple guy doing his best to shut down talk around a dangerous secret he has. On 7/4/2020 at 10:36 AM, Lord Varys said: Instead, Ned actually does something very stupid there - if Cat hadn't been in love with him she could have taken that freak outburst as pretext to dig deeper and uncover the mystery of Jon Snow's unknown mother. Cat wasn't in love with him. She barely knew him. On 7/4/2020 at 10:36 AM, Lord Varys said: We have one - the Wylla story as told to us by Robert. Which is told to us by Robert, not Ned. All Ned says, in either conversation that we know of, is the name Wylla. Period. On 7/4/2020 at 10:36 AM, Lord Varys said: LOL, right. As if anyone ever even suggested that Eddard Stark should or would have to tell anyone who the hell that Wylla was or where exactly he met her or who her buddies were. Certainly not me, but you love your straw men... On 7/4/2020 at 10:36 AM, Lord Varys said: All we are talking about here is that Ned gave Robert the given name of a common woman Thats what I'm saying, yes. You're saying he told Robert a whole lot more. On 7/4/2020 at 10:36 AM, Lord Varys said: - not her address, profession, or biography. How do you think anyone could track down a woman named Wylla who Eddard Stark met and fucked at some point during the war? Umm, its not very hard. She's at Starfall, there's no secret there. Arya's tracked her down by accident. Robert already 'knows' she was Ned's squeeze, the mother of his bastard. Its apparently no secret (generally speaking) that Ned rode away from Starfall with a bastard from somewhere in Dorne. Cat knows, Cersei knows, Robert knows there is no secret in that part. So you start at Starfall, and what do you know, she's right there and its more or less common knowledge she was Ned's bastard's mother. Edric is surprised Arya doesn't know. Its not a secret there. On 7/4/2020 at 10:36 AM, Lord Varys said: I mean, when the hell do you think Ned talked to Robert about Wylla and his bastard the first time? Or when exactly do you think Ned mentioned to anyone he had a bastard? Do you think he informed Robert about that after his return from the south? That he wrote letters to court to mention he, a great lord, had fathered some bastard? He wouldn't do anything of this sort. blah blah blah straw men. We know they did talk, because Ned told Robert the name before. I guess it was when they reconciled over Lyanna's death, probably on the way back to Winterfell (but Robert didn't meet Wylla, so either she went on ahead with Jon, she stayed away from the castle, or Ned did change the wetnurse at Starfall, which seems unnecessary to me). I don't think at all Ned went around 'broadcasting' he had a bastard. But he was travelling, and would want the child treated well, so its going to be obvious to people. I don;t know if Ned would have informed Robert himself if he could avoid it. Its reasonably none of Robert's business and I suspect Ned could have used the 'shame' aspect particular to him to explain to Robert why he said nothing if necessary. But I am sure Robert would have heard, one way or another. the King's best friend, the third or fourth greatest Lord in the land (Robert, Jon Arryn, Ned/Tywin), travelling with a bastard that may be his first child? There are going to be reports. On 7/4/2020 at 10:36 AM, Lord Varys said: Ned would have told Robert what he could about Lya and the tower and stuff, but he wouldn't have taken the child nor talked about 'a bastard of his' while spending time with Robert I agree. But if Robert broached the subject, having had reports (and no doubt being a bit gleeful that his stick up the ass friend was just like other men after all), Ned can;t exactly deny it. My thought is that Ned probably shuts down the conversation as best he could, giving as minimal information as possible, all of it being truthful and unimportant. Apparent, despite that being exactly what we see from Ned later, some people here think thats impossible. Apparently Ned must have confessed a whole sordid false story. Apparently there is no other way Robert could have made the conclusions he obviously has made. I think the people advocating that have paid zero attention to GRRM's characterisation of Ned and the clues he gives us in what he chooses to show us. On 7/4/2020 at 10:36 AM, Lord Varys said: ... especially not if Cat was around there for the coronation and wedding and whatever the hell they were doing together after the war. I don;t think Cat's back in the picture yet when Ned see's Robert. If it is a later visit, after Ned's already been home, then it ought to be easy enough for Ned and Robert to get some alone time away from Cat. Heck, I'd think even Robert would have enough sense to keep those sorts of questions to a private session. On 7/4/2020 at 10:36 AM, Lord Varys said: The Winterfell folk and Cat eventually realized that Jon Snow was a thing. But they lived at Winterfell, with Ned. Eventually, possibly even years later, news about the Bastard of Winterfell would have reached the court. And then Robert may have wondered who the hell the woman was who could seduce Eddard Stark. In fact, he could have first asked Ned about his bastard's mother - if he actually did that - as late as the Greyjoy Rebellion. Thats possible I guess. I think its wildly unlikely that the Master of Secrets couldn't find out the open secret that the King's best friend, the 3rd of 4th noble of the realm, had a bastard that he picked up 'down south' while doing some personal business. On 7/4/2020 at 10:36 AM, Lord Varys said: But guess what - Robert would have no idea how old Jon Snow was, nor when exactly he was born according Ned's story (the guy may not even know when his own children - bastards and Cersei's - were born) - so unless Ned actually told him that he fathered this Jon Snow child after he had married Catelyn at Riverrun Robert Baratheon would have no way of knowing when exactly Ned had his little fling. Robert, I'm absolutely certain, will have had reports about Ned's visit to Starfall. Heck, Arthur Dayne is still in the mix somewhere without the story of Ned returning his sword to Starfall! So Robert knows Jon was born already by then. We don't know whether Robert already 'knew' Jon was conceived after Ned's wedding or not. Thats not clear from the conversation we saw. I don't really think it matters anyway. On 7/4/2020 at 10:36 AM, Lord Varys said: Since Ned can only be the source for Ned actually being an adulterer when allegedly fathering Jon Snow, we can be reasonably sure that Ned actually specifically told Robert that he fucked Wylla after marrying Cat - just as he does again in AGoT when Robert asks him about her. But there is no indication Robert already knew that before Ned told him in the second conversation. And even if he did, I'm positing that the first conversation went much like the second - Robert comes in with pre-assumptions, having had a report about Ned's trip to Starfall, Ned gives minimal and unimportant information without lying and shuts down the conversation leaving Robert to believe his pre-assumptions. And its not necessary that the conversation must have been like that. You're the one stating the 'fact' that Ned told Robert Wylla was Jon's mother. I'm merely pointing out a reasonable alternative that fits the facts (better than yours) and has Ned not at any time stating Wylla was Jon's mother, and still leads to the exact conversation we witnessed. On 7/4/2020 at 10:36 AM, Lord Varys said: I think that is Ned's deliberate excuse/pretext to have a reason not to talk about Wylla/Jon. It shamed him that he broke his marriage vows and he uses that as a shield to be able to not talk about the entire thing - which would be different if he had said he fathered Jon Snow before he married Catelyn at Riverrun - or even before he had agreed with Hoster Tully to marry Catelyn. I think there is an overwhelming preponderance of evidence that Ned is not Jon's father, nor Wylla his mother. So there is no true shame on Ned's part for breaking his vows (perhaps shame for leading Cat to believe their whole married life that he did and how it affected their family). But I agree he uses the 'shame' as a shield to avoid discussing it. On 7/4/2020 at 10:36 AM, Lord Varys said: This would be a very unsafe bet considering only Ned is the only good source of information for all things Jon Snow at Starfall we have so far. Especially if you believe Jon Snow was born at the tower of joy. Nope. Why would Ned say anything explicit at all at Starfall? He has no need to and we see how he avoids doing so even a decade and a half later. All Ned has to do is ride and and have/ask/demand/ Jon to be treated as his son/blood. Starfall people will fill in the gaps themselves, especially if he refuses to discuss it. Thats what people do. On 7/4/2020 at 10:36 AM, Lord Varys said: I'm with you with the idea that Ned may have arrived with Wylla at Starfall. But I see no reason why he should have just allowed people to conclude that Wylla was the mother of his bastard - after all, he would have told the Daynes and Starfallians and eventually the world as such that this child there was Jon Snow, Eddard Stark's natural son. See above. Why would he say anything? If he did, why would he change policies later? How can he control what people 'conclude' anyway? Especially outside of Winterfell. And why wouldn't he let them 'conclude' various scenarios. As long as those scenarios are not the truth of his secret, thats a good thing. People who have an answer stop looking for one. His only focus is on stopping talk. IMO because talk can lead to new thoughts, new conclusions. Its perfectly possible to hold there two thoughts at once, and they are even complimentary. i) stop all discussion, becasue that leads to new or better ideas, or even the truth ii) if people think a lie is true, who cares And even hold them while being very careful about not lying yourself. On 7/4/2020 at 10:36 AM, Lord Varys said: Or are you telling us now Jon Snow got that Snow name branding him a noble bastard for all his life also just because Eddard Stark 'allowed people to draw the conclusion that Jon was his child'? That he never formally and publicly acknowledged him as his child? I don't think so. Formally? Maybe, but I doubt it. Publicly? Clearly he did. At very least by deed, and maybe by word. Quote He did more than that. The Starks were not like other men. Ned brought his bastard home with him, and called him "son" for all the north to see. When the wars were over at last, and Catelyn rode to Winterfell, Jon and his wet nurse had already taken up residence. What I see is that Ned had Jon treated as his bastard son. And casually included him in his 'sons' in public (by which time mind you, Jon truly was his son, even if not from his seed). Ned may have formally, or informally, called Jon 'son'. In the North at least. While still in the south, I can see lots of possibilities. But my guess is that in whichever one of them is the truth, Ned was very careful about what he said exactly and tried not to lie unless he had to. On 7/4/2020 at 10:36 AM, Lord Varys said: For the people of Starfall to conclude that the child with Ned and Wylla - if we got by the idea of them arriving there together - was actually Eddard Stark's son (and not, you know, the late Lyanna's child) Eddard Stark would actually have to tell them at least that. No he would not. As above. And even if he did, thats literally all he has to say on the matter. He is not obliged to give more detail to anyone except Robert , and maybe b=not even Robert. On 7/4/2020 at 10:36 AM, Lord Varys said: As for the other stuff: You are thinking about this too much. Varys reporting about - what? Starfall kitchen gossip? Ned is the King's best friend and the 3rd or 4th ranked noble in the Kingdom. He's a very big deal, especially for those who don't know him. He's got some pretty high powers. And he just 'disappeared' with a small band of close friends after accepting the surrender (thats one of those high powers) of the Tyrells at Storms End. Then he 'reappears' at Starfall with Arthur-friggen-Dayne's sword. Oh, and a bastard from no-where. Thats more than just kitchen gossip. On 7/4/2020 at 10:36 AM, Lord Varys said: And Robert in need of 'armor' to ask his old buddy about his bastard son and the flame who must have born the boy? Those are all additional assumptions nobody needs. "Armor"? Oh, 'pre-armed'. Wow, Thats a hell of a clanger on your part. No wonder its so painful trying to have a discussion with you. On 7/4/2020 at 10:36 AM, Lord Varys said: LOL, you don't seem to get it that Ned 'misdirecting Robert' about the mother of his bastard is exactly the same as him telling it outright if there is a situation where the king actually investigates Wylla, right? Robert wouldn't remember that he had been 'misdirected', he would, correctly, assume that Eddard Stark told him a lie. You think so. I don't. As an experienced user of this strategy (deliberately in my case, in games mostly), I know that having told the exact truth is a very very good defense against claims of lying to people. On 7/4/2020 at 10:36 AM, Lord Varys said: What can I say? That just makes no sense at all. Littlefinger's 'bastard' is Sansa Stark (who stands accused of regicide and is on the most wanted list of the two richest houses in Westeros), wearing literally no disguise but dye in her hair, yet nobody seems to notice her or care about her because she poses as a bastard. The real ientity of a false bastard is not the reaosn for investigating the bastard - thats presupposing the knoweldge of the result. No one cares because Littlefinger's bastard is of no interest because they all look down on Littlefinger. The only potential 'interest' she might possibly have is to use her to worm in with Littlefinger, in which case her identity as his bastard is the key to her values anyway. On 7/4/2020 at 10:36 AM, Lord Varys said: Why on earth do you assume that in light of all that anyone (Ned included) would ever, ever think to investigate the parentage of Ned's bastard. That is just ridiculous. Because people are curious, especially about those in power. And Ned's an important enough guy, with an interesting 'thing' who is tiht lipped? Thats much more 'mysterious' and 'interesting' than Littlefinger's easy non-chalance. And it s not that they definitely would. Its that they might. the last thing Ned needs is having to answer to Robert why he lied about Jon Snow. Assuming he lied that is. If he just to'd the truth, its a very very effective defense. And he still has the "I didn't want to discuss it with you because I'm ashamed, so I didn't argue with your beliefs defense up his sleeve. On 7/4/2020 at 10:36 AM, Lord Varys said: The important thing for Ned was to make Lya's child his bastard - which he simply did by claiming that the boy was his bastard. That was all. Agreed. Though I think he treated the boy as his bastard, which led people to assume it so that it became effectively true over time. And I allow plenty of room for the literal calling the boy his bastard too. Just not for telling unnecessary lies about the bastard's origins which he is later extremely reluctant to discuss. On 7/4/2020 at 10:36 AM, Lord Varys said: There is no indication he ever feared or even thought anyone would ever 'investigate' this child once it was a bastard. Really? Why is he so aggressive in shutting down any talk about it. "Never ask me about Jon". Don't tell me shame and hurt - Jon's not actually his, so there is no actual shame and there is no indication anywhere of a past great love in Ned's head, or that sort of emotional pain - other than for/over his sister. On 7/4/2020 at 10:36 AM, Lord Varys said: Even if they did - it would be his word, the word of one of the most powerful men in Westeros against whoever would want to doubt that. Did you read the books? Do you remember what KL is like as far as trust and the value of a man's word is? On 7/4/2020 at 10:36 AM, Lord Varys said: Even if a man like Stannis wrote a bunch of letters spilling out 'the true Jon Snow story' - the political fallout would be, most likely, nonexistent. Because Jon Snow doesn't look like a Targaryen, and no self-respecting lord in Westeros would want his prince or king to be a baseborn, motherless bastard - especially not while there was still proper royalty living in Essos. Yeah, sure. No issue with Robert over Dragonspawn. No issue over Lyanna's son by Rhaegar. On 7/4/2020 at 10:36 AM, Lord Varys said: Have you any evidence whatsoever that Jon Snow 'appeared' under strange 'circumstances'? There is nothing of this sort in the books at all. Nobody wonders how/why/that Ned Stark got himself a bastard during the war. Suuure. Thats why there's a different rumour about it everywhere you listen. No one wonders how/why honourable Ned, the humourless stick up his ass friend of the king got himself a bastard. But actually, I partially agree. No ne does wonder, much. Because they already have done the wondering and come up with answers that work for themselves so they stopped thinking about it (except Cat). They 'know' already. Nothing to puzzle out hear. On 7/4/2020 at 10:36 AM, Lord Varys said: Ned's love for Robert shouldn't have survived Jon's arrival if Ned had actually been afraid that Robert, specifically, would harm to Jon. The fact that he still loves Robert in AGoT - and is not wary that Robert is going to come to Winterfell where he would see and interact with Jon Snow - is all the proof we need to conclude that Ned wasn't afraid for Jon's life because of Robert. Rubbish. Its not proof, it not even particularly suggestive. And never mind that Jon has grown p to look like Ned and the dangers have massively lessened as a result. On 7/4/2020 at 10:36 AM, Lord Varys said: Again, you are contradicting your own case there - No, just your straw man. On 7/4/2020 at 10:36 AM, Lord Varys said: Ashara was a 'misdirecting story' Ned could have used with Cat. He didn't. Because he knew he could do as he pleased with Cat, unlike Robert or other important people. Why do you think he shut down that story? If I had to guess it had much more to do with Ashara Dayne's memory than Jon Snow. None of that scene reads like Ned bossing Cat 'because he could'. Its the same icy anger and shut down as he uses with Robert, but more forceful, because he has the power. Having the power is not the reason for the icy anger, it merely modifies how he deals with the situation. He shut down that story IMO because any discussion of Jon's origins invites cross pollination of knowledge and new ideas. It carries danger. Suppose someone came up with the idea that Jon was Lyanna's? And Robert heard? Rhaegar frikken Targaryen's dragonspawn and Ned's betrayed him by hiding it!?! On 7/4/2020 at 10:36 AM, Lord Varys said: This whole silly little story that Ned never told Cat or his children or Jon the truth is also a bunch of crap. The Reed children most likely know who Jon Snow actually is - just as they know the story about the mystery knight they expected Bran to know. Howland Reed has his own knowledge and his own judgement on how to deal with it. He's not Ned, and not in the same situation as Ned. On 7/4/2020 at 10:36 AM, Lord Varys said: Ned doesn't talk about Lya and stuff because it is too hurtful/he doesn't want to talk about, not because it is something he has to do to protect his family or Jon. We are talking about a man who has seven-year-old children of his watch him behead people, and three-year-olds remember that 'winter is coming'. He is not one to protect people from the truth if they have to face it. As seems to be always the case, your arguments, made up out of whole cloth from what you feel should be, as opposed to what GRRM writes, are directly contradicted by the text. Quote And when you have it, what then? Some secrets are safer kept hidden. Some secrets are too dangerous to share, even with those you love and trust. Ned slid the dagger that Catelyn had brought him out of the sheath on his belt. The Imp's knife. Why would the dwarf want Bran dead? To silence him, surely. Another secret, or only a different strand of the same web? aquintus 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.