Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
Ygrain

R + L = J v.167

Recommended Posts

23 hours ago, LynnS said:

I think the only reason that Rhaegar gave Lyanna the crown was because; the true honor went to the Mystery Knight who was Lyanna's champion.

 

6 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

Rhaegar was in love with a dream of dragons. 

 

This are both really coold ideas I never considered before, bravo!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

:lol:A post of mine from April of 2015 vs. a Reddit post from June of 2016. :lol:

 

 

Spoiler

Posted April 16, 2015

<Snip>

But then I recalled, if we go back to Ned's first chapter we see some different color imagery around Lyanna, and now that I think about it, I doubt it's an accident.

Quote

 

He could hear her still at times. Promise me, she had cried, in a room that smelled of blood and roses. Promise me, Ned. The fever had taken her strength and her voice had been faint as a whisper, but when he gave her his word, the fear had gone out of his sister’s eyes. Ned remembered the way she had smiled then, how tightly her fingers had clutched his as she gave up her hold on life, the rose petals spilling from her palm, dead and black.

 

The key line here is: "in a room that smelled of blood and roses." Given what we know, that should suggest the colors red and blue. But when Lyanna dies she lets go of the rose petals, and they're no longer blue, they're black. So, "in a room that smelled of blood and roses" actually indicates red and black; Targaryen colors.

I think the main point is another R+L=J hint. Beyond that, there's a little room for speculation. Does it mean that Lyanna died as a Targaryen, having married Rhaegar? It could. It might also mean that she died because she gave birth to a Targaryen. Or maybe a combination of both.

 

The preceding was posted by me on April 15, 2015, in an earlier version of this thread.

The following was posted by u/stark--naked on June 6, 2016, on Reddit in r/ASoIaF:

 

 

Edited by J. Stargaryen

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

Guys, I believe that Rhaegar did start having romantic feelings or noticed Lyanna during the Harrenhal tourney but the one thing that bothers me is that Rhaegar crowned Lyanna because she was KOLT. It just doesn’t fit with what Rhaegar has been described as especially if he was fond of Elia. Although they were not in love, it’s still very disrespectful, and we probably will get more information later. But I do have a tiny theory that may fit in. 

Aegon was born either late 281 or early 282, Elia may have gotten pregnant around March- April 281 which fits in the timeline of after Rhaenys birth and her six month recovery. I believe after she recovered, Rhaegar and her presented Rhaenys in KL and at this time Aegon was conceived (Rhaegar sees a comet in KL). However they would not know she was pregnant at the time. Then she went to Dorne to present Rhaenys and see Quentyn (born in 281). She went back to KL via Kingswood but at this time Hightower and Elia were attacked by the Kingswood brotherhood. While the accuracy of this incident is subjective, it does make sense that Hightower was injured as Arthur lead against the Kingswood and Hightower did not participate in the Harrenhal tourney. It would make sense that Elia was traveling with a chest and jewels if she is coming back from Dorne. I am not so sure of the stolen kiss part. Regardless, she was able to get away as it’s not stated that she was held for ransom. 

So the point is, when did she figure out she was pregnant again? She could not have stayed in Dorne long enough to find out she was pregnant. Was it after the Kingswood incident and if so were there rumors floating that the pregnancy being from the Kingswood brotherhood, especially for Aerys’ ears. They did not have the technology to pinpoint her exact date of pregnancy and perhaps Aerys or even Rhaegar questioned the legitimacy. Later in Harrenhal since Aerys was there perhaps Rhaegar crowned Lyanna because Elia had fallen out of favor or maybe Rhaegar suspected the child wasn’t his at the time. Btw I still feel like this explanation is lacking but I thought this may be a different perspective.

Edited by Crona

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

A long time ago, (in the previous RLJ thread) there was a post in which I replied to @Frey family reunion and it was only just now that I discovered that I had received a reply asking me to elaborate. Sorry for being so late in my response but here it is finally. I hope it's not too late.

The posts are here and here.

@Frey family reunion  said:

 
Quote

 

  On 5/29/2020 at 6:17 PM, Julia H. said:

If you don't mind me chiming in... I can't see Jon Snow as Siegfried, but I can definitely see him as ... Parsifal.

Please elaborate.

ETA: I suppose it's only fair that I elaborate on my parallel to Siegfried.  In reality, I think the closer parallels for Jon rests in the Volsunga one of the Norse sagas that Wagner took his inspiration from.

In the Volsunga saga, King Volung's daughter Signy, is given over to King Siggeir in an arranged marriage.  Like Lyanna's arranged marriage to Robert, Signy is not happy with the arrangement.  Unlike Lyanna, she goes ahead with it.  

During the wedding, Signy's brother, Sigmund, also unhappy with the match, gives offense to King Siggeir.  In some tales, Siggeir's jealousy with Sigmund arises from Sigmund being able to free a sword, Gram,  embedded by a black cloaked stranger (Odin) into a tree, Barnstokk. 

Later King Siggeri lures King Volung, Sigmund and his brothers to his lands where he imprisons, them.  They are put in stocks and one after another become a meal to a giant she-wolf.

Sigmund is the last one left alive, when he is rescued by his sister, Signy who helps him kill the giant she-wofl.  Signy, still unhappy with her marriage to King Siggeir, sends her children with Siggeir to Sigmund to help him gain vengeance against her husband.  Each of her children fail, so she then tricks her brother Sigmund into having sex with her, and thereafter gives birth to Sinfjotli.  It's apparently noteworthy that Sinfjotli grows to be a powerful warrior since his has Volsung blood on both sides of his parents.  Sinfjotli's purpose in life becomes to take vengeance for the murders of his grandfather and uncles.  

In the Poetic Edda, Sinfjotli is accused of being a werewolf.  In some of the stories Sinfjotli gains possession of a wolf cloak which allows him to transform into a wolf.

After they take their vengeance on King Siggeir, (some of the stories attribute Siggeir's death to Signy who lights their house on fire, killing Siggeri, herself, and her children with Siggeir), Sigmund and Sinfjotli return home where Sigmund marries Borghild and have several children together.  However, Sigmund's new wife has nothing but hatred for Sigmund's son from another mother, and devises ways to try and poison Sinfjotli, eventually succeeding.

So here we have some repeating parallels with our story in ASOIF.  We have the idea of an arranged marriage, where the bride expresses resentment for the marriage.  We have a father and son(s) lured into the clutches of a king where they are executed.  We have a giant she-wolf, who's death starts a chain of events.  We have a character in Sinfjotli (the son of the lady who was the subject of the unwanted marriage) who can change into a wolf.  And finally we have this self same character who's father's new wife shows nothing but contempt.  

Later Sigmund remarries Hjordis and she becomes pregnant with their son, Sigurd (aka Siegfried).  Sigmund's sword Gram becomes shattered in battle and Sigmund becomes mortally wounded.  Sigmund gives the shattered sword to his wife, Hjordis, and tells her to keep the broken sword until it can be reforged and given to their unborn son, Sigurd.

When the broken sword is reforged it becomes more powerful than ever, and Sigurd/Siegfried uses the sword to help slay the dwarf turned dragon, Fafnir.  Later Sigurd finds the warrior maiden, Brynhild, and they end up having a star crossed love affair of their own.

Wagner took bits and pieces of the Volunga saga as inspiration.  His Siegfried is basically Sigurd combined with the origin story (at least the incest part) of Sinfjotli.  

 

 

First of all, thanks for your own elaboration. I agree about the existence of possible mythological allusions and motifs in ASOIAF. The saga you describe may well be a common source for both Wagner and GRRM. In addition to the parallels you mention, I think the incest motif belongs first and foremost to Cersei and Jaime. Here, too, the female sibling is married to a king that she hates, and she also wants to take revenge on him – not exactly using her own sons but another young relative of hers (Lancel). As for the she-wolf who is killed, well, the giant mythological she-wolf also kills others, which makes me think less of Lyanna and more of a certain lioness, on the one hand, and of a certain Lady in the Riverlands on the other hand – both are likely to be killed (or put to a final rest) in the upcoming plot.

Then the sword. There is a “reforged” sword in our story, which originally belongs to the Starks, but it is reforged by the Lannisters, and they are also the family obsessed with special swords – their lost Valyrian sword, Jaime’s skill with the sword, Joffrey and his various swords. The dwarf (giant?) turned dragon reminds me of Tyrion as a secret Targaryen(?). We have two warrior women with a romantic interest, one is Ygritte, the other one is Brienne, and it is the latter who reminds me more of Brynhild – it is partly her name, but it is also her description and the quasi-mythological references around her (but I can also see Ygritte as a Valkyrie). All in all, Jaime very much seems to be an amalgamation of Sigmund and Sigurd (Siegfried) to me, more so than Jon. It’s true that Jon also has some of those associations – an affair with a warrior woman, the stabbing; and both Jon and Jaime have had issues with oathkeeping. However, Jaime has also already killed a “dragon” – King Aerys – but then we’ll have to see if there will be any more dragon killings in the story.

Now, back to Wagner and the elaboration on my earlier comment. I said I see Jon Snow more as Parsifal (as in the opera) than Siegfried. Parsifal is the son of a knight who dies in battle before Parsifal is born. After that, Parsifal’s mother has only one purpose in life: to protect her son. Therefore, she keeps him ignorant of who his father was, and protects him from any worldly knowledge, raising him in a forest away from all people. Thus, Parsifal literally “knows nothing”. Growing up, he wanders further and further from his home, finally forgetting about his mother, forgetting even his own name. He arrives in a remote place called Monsalvat (still in a forest), where an order of knights guards the Holy Grail in a castle. The knights have sworn to a life of virtue and chastity, giving up their lives to service. However, currently the order is in trouble: their king, Amfortas broke his vow and is now suffering from an unhealing wound and terrible pain, making him scarcely able to perform his daily duty, which affects all the knights.

Since the knights have a prophecy of a “pure fool” who is made knowledgeable by compassion, they have great hopes in Parsifal, but seemingly nothing happens that would indicate that the young man has any promise of being the one who could save them all, so they dismiss him. In reality, however, Parsifal is deeply moved by the king’s suffering, and with this compassion in his heart, he sets out on a quest with the purpose of freeing Amfortas from the pain and remorse. He has to face dark magic and has to prove his courage and perseverance. The story involves a wild woman (Kundry, a sorceress) who had seduced Amfortas and who is, in the end, refused by Parsifal. Parsifal finds out the truth about his parents, and his mother’s death causes him grief and remorse that almost makes him succumb to temptation (rather like Robb perhaps), but he can feel the pain that Amfortas suffers and that makes him strong again. Having accomplished the task, he returns to Monsalvat, where he arrives on Good Friday. He delivers the king from his suffering. Sinners are forgiven, and Parsifal becomes the new king of the knights.

So, with Jon Snow, we have someone who does not know about his origins; someone who - somewhere on the border of the real and the magical - joins an order to guard something; a hero who is repeatedly described as “knowing nothing” (a very important attribute of Parsifal). A vow of chastity is involved. Furthermore, we can fully expect that Jon will discover his real parentage. Another fundamental Parsifal-motif is compassion, and that is exactly Jon Snow’s best personality trait – his ability to feel compassion for suffering humans. The religious motif of Good Friday is replaced by the importance of spring to come again, and with it, salvation from the threat of winter and its magical creatures.  The Holy Spring in the opera can be paralleled with the various springs found in the North. I also think that – perhaps just as Jaime is an amalgamation of Sigmund and Siegfried – Jon Snow is parallel not only to Parsifal but also to Amfortas in some respects, with Ygritte being a parallel to Kundry. (But then again, Jaime also shows some resemblance to Amfortas.) I, personally, find these parallels very interesting.  

 

Edited by Julia H.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hello.

I have a question.

How does R+L=J explains timing/timeline of Ned's arrival at ToJ and Lyanna's death from childbirth? I mean the latest date when Jon was born is sometime between battle at the Trident and sack of Kings Landing. But there a lot of stuff, that Ned did in between sack of Kings Landing and melee at ToJ. Surely he spent weeks, if not couple months before arriving to ToJ. Meanwhile Lyanna was bleeding and had a fever from giving birth. I mean how the hell she survived all these weeks/months before Ned came?

PS English is not my native language, sorry for possible errors/mistakes.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Bloodwyn said:

Hello.

I have a question.

How does R+L=J explains timing/timeline of Ned's arrival at ToJ and Lyanna's death from childbirth? I mean the latest date when Jon was born is sometime between battle at the Trident and sack of Kings Landing. But there a lot of stuff, that Ned did in between sack of Kings Landing and melee at ToJ. Surely he spent weeks, if not couple months before arriving to ToJ. Meanwhile Lyanna was bleeding and had a fever from giving birth. I mean how the hell she survived all these weeks/months before Ned came?

PS English is not my native language, sorry for possible errors/mistakes.

Alyssa Targaryen died months after he gave birth to his third son, Aegon. It might be the case for Lyanna too. We don't know when Jon was concieved or born.

We are also told that Lyanna died only after Ned arrived, but we don't know how much after Ned's arrival. It might be a couple days or weeks to. 

It might also be that Jon wasn't even born by the time Ned arrived.

Either way, it likely was impossible to move Lyanna from the ToJ, that's why she died there, and the whole RLJ widely fits into the timeline.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Bloodwyn said:

Hello.

I have a question.

How does R+L=J explains timing/timeline of Ned's arrival at ToJ and Lyanna's death from childbirth? I mean the latest date when Jon was born is sometime between battle at the Trident and sack of Kings Landing. But there a lot of stuff, that Ned did in between sack of Kings Landing and melee at ToJ. Surely he spent weeks, if not couple months before arriving to ToJ. Meanwhile Lyanna was bleeding and had a fever from giving birth. I mean how the hell she survived all these weeks/months before Ned came?

PS English is not my native language, sorry for possible errors/mistakes.

Different people have different opinions about this topic. My opinion is this:

Jon was conceived on Christmas Eve, on 24-25 of December, or the 12th Moon of Planetos' calendar. He was born 40 weeks later, during an autumnal equinox, for reference GRRM was using equinox of 1983, which was on September 23. Thus Jon was born on the 23rd day of the Ninth Moon. According to George Martin, Jon is 8-9 months older than Dany. If he was born in late September, then his sign of Zodiac is Libra, which is an Air sign. Dany was born 8 months after Jon, and 9 months after her mother departed from King's Landing and went to Dragonstone. Dany is Gemini, also an Air sign. Dany's son, Rhaego (who is alive) is an Aquarius, the third Air sign. The three of them together is the three heads of the dragon from the propecy about the Promised Prince. All three of them are parallels to Biblical Jesus. For example, Rhaego's comet the Bleeding Star is a parallel to the Star of Bethlehem/Christmas Star. Jon is Libra, thus his guardian planet is Venus, this planet is called the Morning Star, and in latin it is named Lucifer, which also translates as Lightbringer, which is one of Jesus' names in the Bible. Based on this clues Jon was both conceived and born at Starfall. Dawn sword of Daynes is Azor Ahai's Lightbringer, and Jon who is bloodrelated to House Dayne thru Rhaegar's ancestor, Dyanna Dayne, will be the next Sword of the Morning, wielder of Dawn.

Jon was born 8 months prior Dany's birth, and ~1 month after Queen Rhaella went to Dragonstone. She left King's Landing already after it became known that Rhaegar got killed at the Trident. It's likely that at the time of Rhaella's departure Ned and his supporters already were riding towards King's Landing. The Trident is located close to the Crossroads Inn, and it's a 10-14 days ride from that inn to King's Landing. Or even faster, if the riders are trying to get there as fast as Ned was after Rhaegar's death. That distance could be coreved even in a span of 7 days. The distance between Storm's End and King's Landing is approximately the same as between King's Landing and the Trident. Ned came to the Storm's End, lifted its siege, and shortly after that he received information about Lyanna's whereabouts. So he departed from Storm's End to Dorne approximately 14-28 days after Rhaegar's death/ less than 14-28 days after Rhaella's departure to Dragonstone.

Most likely to travel from Storm's End to Starfall Ned used a ship. Sailing distance from Storm's End to Starfall is approximately ... <_< ... I don't remember, though there was enough time for Ned to go from Trident to King's Landing, and then to Storm's End, and from there either by land or by ship to travel to Starfall, and for him to arrive there shortly after Lyanna gave birth to Jon, maybe mere hours or even minutes after the baby's birth.

If it took Ned ~14-20 days to get from Trident to Storm's End, then he had 16-10 more days to get from there to Starfall. If his total traveling time was ~30 days, and his voyage started after Rhaegar's death, then he arrived to Starfall ~one month after Rhaella's departure to Dragonstone and ~8 months prior Dany's birth. Jon was born ~3 weeks after the Sack of King's Landing, and between 3-5 weeks after Rhaegar's death at the Trident.

The timing went like this: 1. Rhaegar was killed at the Trident, 2. some time later Targaryens received news about what happened, 3. some time later Rhaella went to Dragonstone, 4. while events 2&3 were happening at KL, Ned departed from the Trident and went towards KL, 5. Ned arrived to KL 1-2 weeks after Rhaegar's death, and some unknown amount of time after Rhaella's departure to Dragonstone. At this point in time happened the Sack of King's Landing, 6. Ned went to Storm's End, arrived there 1-2 weeks after the Sack, 7. Ned departed from SE to Starfall, sailed there for 7+ days, 8. arrived to Starfall ~2-3 weeks after the Sack and ~3-4 weeks after Rhaegar's death + a few more days.

I measured distances, using The Wall (which is 300 miles long), as a reference. I found information online about the speed of horses on various terrains, the speed of medieval ships, etc. I made time-calculations of all traveling that took place between Rhaegar kidnapping Lyanna near Harrenhal (in late 282) and Jon's birth at Starfall (in late 283). And my calculations fit into the timing of Robert's Rebellion and its major events.

Edited by Megorova

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Bloodwyn said:

Hello.

I have a question.

How does R+L=J explains timing/timeline of Ned's arrival at ToJ and Lyanna's death from childbirth? I mean the latest date when Jon was born is sometime between battle at the Trident and sack of Kings Landing. But there a lot of stuff, that Ned did in between sack of Kings Landing and melee at ToJ. Surely he spent weeks, if not couple months before arriving to ToJ. Meanwhile Lyanna was bleeding and had a fever from giving birth. I mean how the hell she survived all these weeks/months before Ned came?

PS English is not my native language, sorry for possible errors/mistakes.

Welcome!

Bed of blood in the books is a euphemism for childbirth, not actually bleeding.  Lyanna was dying of postpartum fever and in universe women could die either soon after the birth like Minisa Tully, Rhaella and Naerys Targaryen or even half a year later like Alyssa Targaryen. Even in our world we have examples of women dying soon after childbirth like Maria Teresa d'Este who died the next day, Maria Leopoldine of Austria died the same day while Maria Antonia of Austria died 2 months after giving birth to Joseph Ferdinand of Bavaria and Judith of Bohemia almost 5 months after the birth of Bolesław Wrymouth.

Edited by Lilac & Gooseberries

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 2/1/2021 at 7:36 AM, Bloodwyn said:

Hello.

I have a question.

How does R+L=J explains timing/timeline of Ned's arrival at ToJ and Lyanna's death from childbirth? I mean the latest date when Jon was born is sometime between battle at the Trident and sack of Kings Landing.

This is simply incorrect.
We don't know exactly when Jon was born. There is no 'latest date' timeline. The 'best' understanding we have places his birth some time p to a month after the Sack of KL but that can be extended out further by uncertain variables.
Jon was born closer to 8 or 9 months or so (than a year or more) before Dany, per GRRM.
Dany's birth was 9 moons after her mother's flight from Dragonstone, which was precipitated by the news of the Battle of the Trident.
So Dany is born 9 months or more after the Trident, and Jon born approximately 8 or 9 months before her - in short, up to a month or slightly more after the Battle of the Trident.

Thats not the 'latest date', Its the best approximation, which can be moved in either direction from various factors - for example, GRRM's response to the statement that Jon was born 'more than a year before Dany' was to say that it was probably closer to 8 or 9 months. Which might mean it was 8 or 9 months, or 7.5 say, or 9.5.
Plus, as others have noted, we can't be sure exactly how long after the birth Ned arrived at ToJ. Lyanna had a fever, according to Ned and puerperal fever was historically a major cause of death in childbirth, before bacterial theory was understood. Death could occur days, weeks or months after the birth event. My understanding is that up to 10 days or so was most common, though longer happened too.

Quote

But there a lot of stuff, that Ned did in between sack of Kings Landing and melee at ToJ. Surely he spent weeks, if not couple months before arriving to ToJ.

Not that much. He went in haste to Storms End to relieve the siege there and accepted the surrender of the Reach forces there. There is no indication that he took a major force there ready to battle, so it could have been a smaller all-mounted force taking only a couple of weeks to get there and a day or two to conduct the business.
Then we know nothing until he appears at ToJ with a tiny select band of personal retainers. 
That could be a week or two after relieving the siege, so possibly less than 1 month of the Sack.

Quote

Meanwhile Lyanna was bleeding and had a fever from giving birth. I mean how the hell she survived all these weeks/months before Ned came?

Well, since our best timeline, with a bit of room either way, puts Jon's birth at up to a month  after the Sack, and Ned could have arrived within a month of the Sack, its even possible Ned could have arrived before/during the birth. 
More likely though, Lyanna suffered for a week or two and died shortly after Ned arrived.

Note that thats all within fairly standard timeframes. There is room in either direction.
Perhaps just as importantly, this all ignores GRRMS notoriously lax logistical efforts. Throw those in the mix and you've got even more space.

ETA: Note @Megarova's calculations allow time for Ned to go to Starfall (I don't believe the evidence supports Starfall vs ToJ, but she disagrees) which is even further away from Storms End than ToJ is (travel time might be similar due to sea vs overland).  GRRM specifically warns against calculating such logistics finely (because he doesn't, so can get things a bit wrong sometimes!), but they do give us a reasonable guide.

Edited by corbon

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So on the question of whether or not Rhaegar Targaryen kidnapped or eloped with Lyanna Stark: if Lyanna's main problem with her betrothed, Robert Baratheon, was his cheating on her (he's already sired an illegitimate daughter by the time she was betrothed), why would she decide to elope with a married man? Hypocrisy much?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It is a pretty iffy look on Lyanna's part, if it was an elopement. Though I do wonder how much we should be judging a hormonal 16 year old here. They don't have the greatest track record in the series to date on matters of physical relations. The more pressing issue here is Rheagar Targaryen. Like, how old was he? In his 30's? Late 20's? Either way, old enough to have been married, have one child and another on the way. So unless he was acting with Elia's full knowlege and consent, he was a pretty shitty husband and father, all so he could do the nasty with a teenager. Either way, Lyanna is the party with the lesser amount of power in this situation.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
25 minutes ago, Nathan Stark said:

It is a pretty iffy look on Lyanna's part, if it was an elopement. Though I do wonder how much we should be judging a hormonal 16 year old here. They don't have the greatest track record in the series to date on matters of physical relations. The more pressing issue here is Rheagar Targaryen. Like, how old was he? In his 30's? Late 20's? Either way, old enough to have been married, have one child and another on the way. So unless he was acting with Elia's full knowlege and consent, he was a pretty shitty husband and father, all so he could do the nasty with a teenager. Either way, Lyanna is the party with the lesser amount of power in this situation.

Rhaegar was born in 259 AC, and was KIA in 283 AC. Rickard and Brandon Stark were put to death in 282 AC, so if Rhaegar and Lyanna disappeared weeks before that time, Rhaegar would be 22 or 23 depending on when his nameday is in the year (GRRM isn't great with these).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

this observation is another reason why R & L never ever even happened. neither of them cheated. 

yes, i have no proof.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 minutes ago, Yaya said:

this observation is another reason why R & L never ever even happened. neither of them cheated. 

yes, i have no proof.

 

Actually this observation makes me more inclined to think Elia was not in love with Rhaegar and had knowledge of the situation. This would explain their complex relationship, harrenhal and Aegon being removed as heir after Rhaegar dying.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
26 minutes ago, Yaya said:

this observation is another reason why R & L never ever even happened. neither of them cheated. 

yes, i have no proof.

 

So everybody assumed Rhaegar had sex with Lyanna?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
37 minutes ago, Yaya said:

this observation is another reason why R & L never ever even happened. neither of them cheated. 

yes, i have no proof.

 

I apologize if I sound  rude but Lyanna being a hypocrite has nothing to do with L+R. She could do both elope and being a hypocrite.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Oh NO!  Not another RLJ thread.  This is like too many remakes of a movie, where one or more of them, finally break the franchise.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
22 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

So on the question of whether or not Rhaegar Targaryen kidnapped or eloped with Lyanna Stark: if Lyanna's main problem with her betrothed, Robert Baratheon, was his cheating on her (he's already sired an illegitimate daughter by the time she was betrothed), why would she decide to elope with a married man? Hypocrisy much?

It might be hipocrisy, tho.

What we are told to believe is that Lyanna had feelings to him before he "kidnapped" her (Harrenhall). We know Lyanna became so emoitional when he was singing a sad song. But this isn't doubtless, for now.

But then we know for sure Rhaegar loved her, even if she didn't love him, for two reasons:

-He gave her the crown of winter roses.

-Daenerys saw a vision where Rhaegar, with his last breath, whispered a woman's name. One can imagine it wasn't Elia or Rhaella.

But it might not be hipocrisy. Lyanna might have believed in the Targaryen poligamy thing, and a betrothal was a betrothal, not a consumed marriage. Or he was just so in love with him that she didn't even bother with such things as marriage and betrothal (But I don't believe this can be fit into the story, given the nature of the 2 characters).

Edited by Daeron the Daring

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This may not be a popular opinion, but I don't really see why the show creators would make up such a thing. I can see them goofing up/coming up with Jon's birth name, but I don't think they would create a marriage that wasn't there.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...