John Suburbs Posted February 26, 2021 Share Posted February 26, 2021 22 hours ago, ATaleofSalt&Onions said: You missed the point of what I said. It doesn't require some extravagant explanation for why people would think a 15 year old betrothed girl running off with a married guy (without her father's permission, obviously) was kidnapping because that scenario essentially is kidnapping in their world regardless of her wishes (and it would also be kidnapping in our society, though not quite for the same reason of course). We don't know where exactly they did meet up, other than that it was near Harrenhal. Rhaegar has features that make him very easily identifiable. Lyanna presumably wasn't randomly all by herself near Harrenhal. It's not exactly theory-breaking to assume somebody saw and recognized them, even if they tried to be discrete. This is a much more logical conclusion than "Rhaegar and Lyanna were never together at all and actually Aerys knocked her up." He had a wife at Dragonstone, and he/they may have wanted to go somewhere they couldn't be easily found by anyone and everyone. And from a storytelling perspective, Lyanna being at Dragonstone just isn't convenient to contrive a scenario where Ned finds Lyanna and her baby virtually by himself and is able to hide knowledge of her giving birth from the public (and Robert, ultimately). We don't know that Lyanna was ok with all of that. We also don't know how well-informed she was of events going on as they happened, how long it took her to be informed, etc. I don't think Lyanna was "perfectly willing to sacrifice all their lives," I think she made a foolish decision that had disastrous unintended consequences. In addition, Ned is a kind-hearted guy that loved his sister and cared deeply about protecting the innocent (like his newborn nephew). It's not difficult to understand why he'd claim and care for Jon in this situation. Also, I want to point out that while Ned clearly does still love Lyanna and cherish her memory, he also explicitly states that the wolfsblood drove her (and Brandon) to an early grave, showing that he does think she bears some responsibility for her fate. If she was just an innocent victim of a brutal kidnapping and rape by Aerys, why would he think that? Actually, nobody ever states this in the text, so I'm not sure where the "supposedly" is coming from here. I admit there's definitely some mystery as to explaining/justifying the actions of the KG, what orders they were given and my whom, etc. but there are a ton of possibilities because we just don't know much about that at this point. So assuming one specific scenario as the only alternative and then dismissing it because you don't find it plausible doesn't prove anything. It's not just that there's no evidence to support ALJ to the exclusion of everything else, there's simply no evidence for it at all. Nobody even remotely hints at Aerys and Lyanna being a thing (consensually or not) in any way, shape, or form, or that they were ever in the same place at any point after the Harrenhal tournament. Sorry, but you missed my point. How would anyone even know that Lyanna ran off with anyone, let alone Rhaegar, unless they went out of their way to make it known? Why would they not take even the simplest steps to keep their elopement a secret? If this was an elopement, then the first word that anything was wrong should have been that Lyanna was missing, which would have put House Stark on immediate alert, not casually planning a wedding. And the fact remains that we don't know that they met up at all. That's merely the story the some unknown person told to Brandon, and it is a highly unlikely story for the reasons I mentioned above. Only a handful of people know Rhaegar Targaryen by sight, so it is unlikely that any commoners would know who he was unless he came along with his distinctive armor and features with his white-blonde hair blowing in the wind -- not even a hooded cloak to keep him warm in the dead of winter. And again, this would mean he and Lyanna chose to elope in a public place, in broad daylight, publicly identifying themselves to a bunch of strangers. Why? If Lyanna is willingly eloping with Rhaegar, then why is she bringing others to their rendezvous? And why are they meeting up in a place where anyone would see them rather than some secret spot, such as the laughing tree? If Rhaegar doesn't care what the rest of the realm thinks about him and Lyanna, why should he care what his wife thinks? He's abandoning her anyway or, as some would have it, she is perfectly fine with him seeking someone else to produce the third head of the dragon. And the only reason he would have to worry about someone looking for him in relation to Lyanna's disappearance is if he simply snatched her in front of a bunch of strangers without taking the slightest measure to hide his identity. So again, does Rhaegar honestly think himself to be so untouchable that he can do this with no repercussions? Rhaegar is not basing his decisions as a character in a story. He is basing them on real-world circumstances. Martin takes great pains to ensure his characters act and react in a realistic manner, not to simplify the story. If he thought like that, the series would be finished by now. According to the elopement theory, she had to have been OK with all of the fallout from her utterly selfish decision. Is she with Rhaegar willingly or not? Her wolf blood led her to get involved at Harrenhal, which was the start of all this trouble. But in the end he forgives her and agrees to help her when things spun out of her control. If she was a willing participant with Rhaegar while her family is being killed and blood is being spilt across the land, that is an entirely different manner. And it apparently didn't take Hightower long to find out where they were, so they could not have been completely ignorant over the fallout of their incredibly selfish decision. The prevailing theory is that the vow the KG swore was to Rhaegar as their new king, and then to Jon has his rightful heir. But that is bunk because if either this kidnap or elopement story is true then Rhaegar has shown himself to be just as mad, if not madder, than his father. The evidence is as I showed you. It's counter-evidence, actually, because it highlights the series of extremely unlikely reactions from numerous players in this little drama if the kidnap/elopement story is true. However, they do fit the scenario in which Aerys is the instigator here. Not proof by any means, but at least it fits plausibly with what we actually know. And, of course, you could still wind up with RLJ even if Rhaegar did not make off with Lyanna. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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