Lord Varys Posted June 29, 2020 Share Posted June 29, 2020 3 hours ago, Bael's Bastard said: A bunch of long winded bullshit you've already spewed over and over, which has no more support from the books this time than it did every other time. Maybe spend less time creating fan fiction and more time actually reading the books. These are the kind of 'opinions' people offer when they don't have any arguments left. It is quite interesting to see how often one gets stuff like that instead of an actual response. Prior to that it was invented arguments like 'the Targaryens/Westerosi have to see polygamy as super normal and okay because else their kings no longer are their kings', so I guess this can count as an improvement in the sense that you understand you don't have any arguments you can actually base on published works. 2 hours ago, Frey family reunion said: You guys crack me up. The parallel here, with Rhaegar and Lya, is actually Maegor and Alys again. Like with Maegor and Ceryse we can expect that Rhaegar, if he indeed married Lyanna, wanted to retire/rid himself of Elia as a wife because she no longer was his wife in the actual dynastic meaning of the word, i.e. as potential mother of more children. Her womb could no longer carry, either because she couldn't or because a pregnancy would definitely kill her (as per the professional opinion of the maesters). There is a slight difference there, of course, in the sense that Rhaegar the Lusty got two children by his first wife, whereas Maegor did not ... but it is inconceivable in my opinion (and that's some guesswork on my part on the basis of Lya and Rhaegar's characters given so far) that Rhaegar and Lyanna wanted enter into some sort of polygamous threesome marriage. For one, as you point out, that wouldn't be Lya's thing. And it is also not likely that Rhaegar wanted to have more than one wife. He wanted Lyanna and nobody else. In a sense this is also reflective of Aegon I - who took both Visenya and Rhaenys to wife so he could have Rhaenys. If he could have had Rhaenys without Visenya he would have likely preferred that option. Rhaegar seems to have loved Lyanna - and he never loved Elia - and if Lya loved Rhaegar in turn then they would have seen their relationship as the real marriage, and the Elia-Rhaegar thing as an affair of the past, even if the marriage had never been formally dissolved. It is pretty clear to me that a King Rhaegar would have had only one queen - Lyanna Stark, not Elia Martell. She may have been the mother of his children, and they may have remained his legitimate heirs and all ... but their marriage would not continue. In the same sense Maegor effectively ended his marriage with Ceryse when he married Alys - them no longer living together, no longer having sex, and Maegor not taking Ceryse with him to exile. The marriage only proper continued after their second wedding and bedding at the Hightower in 43 AC after Maegor had become king. Which, to the people who actually read things thoroughly, is another instance proving that marriages can be ended and restarted. Like Jaehaerys-Alysanne later in 50 AC, Maegor-Ceryse needed a second wedding and a formal stipulation of the new harem situation thing for their marriage to commence. For Jaehaerys-Alysanne people also see the two quarrels as eras in which those marriages stopped, because the king and queen no longer lived together (although that's certainly less of an issue than the period of 49-50 AC and 39-43 AC during which it wasn't even clear that Jaehaerys-Alysanne and Maegor-Ceryse were (still) married). This alone should give anybody pause who believes or tries to make a case that a secret wedding of Rhaegar and Lyanna in the middle of nowhere would have necessarily been seen as binding. If two kings who are already lawfully married feel the need to reinforce that they are married by having another public wedding then this obviously means that they were not of the opinion that the people at large thought they were lawfully married, right? 4 hours ago, Mithras said: For the time being, the winning position is that Rhaegar and Lyanna married in some fashion. No one exactly knows what GRRM will do with Jon's parentage AND Jon's legitimacy. No one exactly knows how the characters in the story will react to Jon's parentage AND Jon's legitimacy (if it ever becomes public knowledge). LV might feel authorized to speak in the name of us or the characters inside the story about the stuff that is still unwritten, by typing things like "nobody would do this" or "nobody would believe that" etc. Thank you but no. I am allowed to have my own opinions about the things I read in the books. If there was a marriage, then it is done for me. If LV can't handle that, or if any character inside the story will have a problem with that (if it ever becomes public knowledge), too bad for them. It is their problem, not mine. I made an analogy there, as you (would?) know if you actually read what I wrote. I made the rather easily understandable comparison between the political repercussions (spoiler: so far: none) Stannis' little story about Cersei's children had on the legitimacy of Joffrey, Myrcella, and Tommen and the hypothetical political repercussions the 'revelation' about the truth of Jon Snow's parentage might have. If great lord like Stannis cannot convince people that his brother's children aren't his brother's children, then how do we imagine some wetnurse and an obscure crannogman shape the minds of millions? That is just very difficult to imagine, isn't it? I'm right there - literally nobody believed Stannis' little calumny there, did they? Or can you name me a single lord, knight, or man-at-arms who abandoned King Joffrey (or any of the other pretenders) because of Stannis' silly little claim that he was 'the rightful king'? I don't recall any such person. If you want to convince me or anyone that people (or who exactly) you think would likely believe Jon Snow's origin story for what reason I'm all ears. You might even make a pretty good case. But I myself cannot really come up with a scenario where anybody would want to believe that Eddard Stark's bastard was in truth a Targaryen prince whose parents were Rhaegar Targaryen and Lyanna Stark. That kind of story is in S(elsye)+P(atchface)=S(hireen) territory. This is significant, because it shows how the author wants us, the readers, to see truth in relation to power in this world. Truth is irrelevant if not backed by/spoken by powerful people. And interestingly enough George also sent us the message that low/obscure birth and upbringing never goes away. Even if Jon Snow were to mount a dragon - which I very much expect he will - it would not be a guarantee that people will believe his freaky, fairy-tale origin story (especially not after Aegon just claimed pretty much the same thing ... and may turn out to be a fraud). Hugh and Ulf and Nettles and Addam of Hull claimed dragons, too - did them no good, didn't make them princes or kings. Instead they were put down by their own allies, vilified as witches who cheated their way into becoming a dragonrider, or were accused of treason because of their backgrounds. This is all very fine, complex, and multi-layered framework for how power and legitimacy are shaped by circumstances. Jon Snow needs to claw his way to power all by himself, with means and talents and characteristics given to him as a person, not by virtue of being this or that person's 'legitimate child'. If he grew into a great leader in his own right then him becoming a dragonrider will make him stronger. But if he were still a nobody with just a band of ragged starving Northmen by that time, then even a dragon wouldn't make him much more impressive. Nettles had a dragon, too, but she couldn't conquer Westeros, either. She wasn't even able to make himself the queen of the clansmen. LynnS 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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