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R + L = J v.167


Ygrain
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1 hour ago, Daeron the Daring said:

No, don't, I talked about it because it's not a big deal (at all). If it was, I wouldn't have mentioned it.

 

I completely understand you, really, and I think we still misundersatnd each other. In no way chasing prophecies is a good thing, that is shown by Stannis at the front page, and ultimately, by Rhaegar. If anything, it's a horrible thing. If prophecies can be true (let's just assume they can be true in ASOIAF, so there are things that are meant to happen), then those legit ones become fulfilled anyway, no matter what. But I doubt anyone can not fall for a prophecy. When, let's say, a prophecy is close, and the people invested and related know this to some extent, they always get corrupted by it, no matter who it may be. 

To get this over with, I am really thinking of the best possible example now, which is Star Wars. You know, the prophecy of the Chosen One, which actually is true. Now, wether Luke or Anakin was the Chosen one, the main issue still stands. Anakin was corrupted, the main reason of his downfall is most probably the first one, his childhood (if you don't count in some ass comic stories which overconfuse everything), which led to him not being able to lock out emotions as a Jedi would. That later on, put him into a relationship with Padme, who eventually became pregnant. Now, for a Jedi, this is all bad from the very beginning. Maybe not for me or you, the viewer, but it was certainly bad from a point of view. In any way, he went on a fucking rampage and sent a whole galaxy into torture and terror. In the end, he or his son is the one who brings the damn balance to the Force.

And even if you consider what the comics want to say about it (which pretty much explains how Sidius/the Emperor/Palpatine got so powerful that he managed to control the Midichlorians, and made them impregnate Anakin's mother), the example is still standing strong, since Palpatine created him so that he'll be his apprentice and heir. So all things considered, Anakin was created by the most evil guy you can imagine, then corrupted him  thanks to his f'd up childhood background even more. However, Anakin, with his son who can be considered some prophetical dude with evil background on the square, saved the Universe and brought balance to the Force.  So, eventually, the evil creation of the most evil guy saves the universe with his son.

And it's the same, in the sense that Anakin managed to do what the prophecy required, however, he is the cause to many things I don't have to elaborate on. Or if it's Luke, then the same shit goes on. His birth and role was all a requirement for the prophecy to work out ultimately. But that's how prophecies work, young padawan.

It ultimately doesn't mean bad actions are justified for the greater good because of prophecy. You may argue beside or against bad deeds for the greater good in real life, but not in fantasy. The difference is the existence of valid prophecies. In this case, this is meant to happen. If Jon Snow is the promised hero, he would've ended up being a thing regardless of Rhaegar's actions. It is Rhaegar who tought he has to take matters into his own hand, because he couldn't believe the prophecy would be fulfilled without him manipulating things (assuming that's the reason why some things happened). This just shows how easily we corrupt, and if prophecies were a real thing, I don't think a single person could evade falling into its trap.

And yes, if you microanalyze everything about this Chosen One stuff, then it's different form TPTWP, but it doesn't matter.

sure , I see your point of view. I just can't quite agree with it . so, I guess, agree to disagree?!:dunno:

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On 2/19/2022 at 3:44 PM, BRANDON GREYSTARK said:

I don't think Dorne fought for Rhaegar . When Rhaegar fell at the Trident , the Dornish troops did not retreat to King's Landing as far as we know .They returned to Dorne even though Elia was at the Red Keep .

Lewyn Martell was killed and their forces defeated, while Eddard raced to K.L. where Elia was murdered. Likely, there was no way or time for Dorne to save Elia.

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On 2/21/2022 at 5:19 AM, EggBlue said:

Jon on the other hand is something different ;since his supposed father was effectively working towards the end result that seems to becoming Jon's destiny . it would have been different if Rhaegar was merely a lovestruck, reckless prince running away from everything (like in the show) . but Martin has gone his ways to inform us that the dead prince knew what was coming , was preparing for it and his story with Lyanna -as implied- was a part of it. I'm not looking for some grand moral message . but from what I've read there are a couple of things Martin seems to be saying ; call it message , rule , whatever... RLJ does cheapen the effect of  one of these things that's already clearly established in his books ; something that he's telling us with  Stannis's story and verbalizes through Marwin : trying to act on prophecies not only bites you in the ass , it also doesn't remotely result in what you intended . because although Rhaegar and his loved ones all died as contrary to what he wanted , he had achieved his main goal nonetheless.   

 

I agree that prophecies "biting people in the ass" is one of GRRM's "thematic consistencies" but I think that could also argue against you in this case. Chasing the prophecy DID bite Rhaegar in the ass. He went out seeking to save the world from a threat that I am assuming he could not identify. He tried plenty of different ideas to see if they would fit, until he found Lyanna. Now, being blinded by this prophecy, he made a rash (or even calculated) decision to pursue it at the expense of all else, with no guarantee of success, as he had been wrong before. Rhaegar sacrificed his whole family and their future, in order to pursue a prophecy that he believed in. Was he right? Was he wrong? Doesn't matter. This is another GRRM example of a prophecy destroying someone's life ultimately on a gamble. I think the rule still holds here!

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