Which Lord Butterwell was Pylos referring to?

[The Wondering Wolf]

3 hours ago, Lord Corlys Velaryon said:

Given their sigil, chances are those were along the Trident, thus (rather) close to Lord Harroway's Town, which may have still been ruled by the Butterwells since Maegor's time or at least, they perhaps could've maneuvered during the Regency to reclaim it.

By the time of the Dance it was ruled by Lord Roote. There might be a chance that ownerchip changed again, but that seems a bit cluttered, so I would not think so.

3 hours ago, Lord Corlys Velaryon said:

Btw, what do you think the Darry family tree throughout this period of history?

The MUSH has them as brothers and Rosamund as the daughter of the first one, but the MUSH is a bit off there, because it has Derrick die in the Bloody Mess and Roland continue the Darry line. I would guess the three Darry lords during the Dance were brothers indeed, and the one who took over after Roland died was an uncle. If we assume the brothers were born around 100 AC, an uncle could have been born around 90 AC or a bit earlier, so 110 AC for Damon. Seems to work for me.

[Lord Corlys Velaryon]

5 hours ago, The Wondering Wolf said:

By the time of the Dance it was ruled by Lord Roote. There might be a chance that ownerchip changed again, but that seems a bit cluttered, so I would not think so.

Ah, so they did. Serves me right for not checking the wiki first. Yeah, I'd say you're correct. Chances are Lord Alton (or his successor) was among those who lost lands for their former support of Maegor when Jaehaerys I became king, thus the Butterwells were relieved of LHT. The Rootes had also supported Aegon the Uncrowned against his usurping uncle, so that's surely why they were given the town.

5 hours ago, The Wondering Wolf said:

The MUSH has them as brothers and Rosamund as the daughter of the first one, but the MUSH is a bit off there, because it has Derrick die in the Bloody Mess and Roland continue the Darry line. I would guess the three Darry lords during the Dance were brothers indeed, and the one who took over after Roland died was an uncle. If we assume the brothers were born around 100 AC, an uncle could have been born around 90 AC or a bit earlier, so 110 AC for Damon. Seems to work for me.

Oh I forgot about the MUSH. I had assumed that Derrick & Roland were among the Darry children that survived Vhagar flames & say in their (early) teens - thus making them lesser Lads - but the MUSH would have it perhaps otherwise. Do you think they were Lord & Lady Darry's children or their uncles/cousins? Only Roland & Derrick are the MUSH characters in the family tree who are canon (besides seemingly Rosamund to some degree & assuming that list hasn't been updated since then), but as you say, their information doesn't quite match what's in F&B (I wonder if GRRM tweaked the Darrys a little post TPatQ/TWoIaF, hence the discrepancy). It'd be interesting if the remaining children were only (underage) daughters & they were passed over for their adult uncles (or cousins), whilst that would perhaps be a better fit for Derrick & Roland later leading the Darry forces (although I wonder where they then would've been when Aemond descended on Castle Darry).

So how I'm thinking this all works... Lord "Jonothor" dies with his only son on Darry's battlements from Vhagar's fires, his wife & young daughters surviving in the castle vaults. Due to their age, sex, & being in the middle of a war, the late lord's next eldest brother, Derrick, assumes the lordship. Lord Derrick leads the Darry forces at the Second Tumbleton, but dies around the same time as Elmo Tully, so younger brother Roland succeeds him (if Derrick has any children they are too young to rule & perhaps female, besides). Lord Roland leads the Darry men at the Muddy Mess, but is killed by Borros Baratheon. He has at least one son & younger brother/uncle/cousin Ser Damon does not seize the lordship, but rather acts as regent &/or castellan for the boy.

Helping to explain why Damon isn't lord in 132, but leads the campaign with Ser Regis Groves of the KG against Harrenhal, who receives the poor bastard who chokes to death, & writes to the Crown of what had transpired. Then one of the Darry daughters, Rosamund (probably Jonothor's child given the MUSH), is in King's Landing the next year for the Maiden's Day Ball. I'm not sure how/where any surviving widows work into all of this though, especially the first who not unlikely would still want her surviving kids to inherit their father, even after Aemond's attack. Perhaps then some years later when Roland's son is old enough to rule, then an-unwed-in-this-case Damon could then maybe join the KG to eventually become its Lord Commander & the "Demon of Darry" as Lord Varys theorises.

Alternatively, "Garth" could be an eventually canon younger brother or cousin of Roland at least, who becomes lord after the Battle of the Kingsroad & whose line continues House Darry. Although I'm not sure how that would square with Damon taking the lead against Alys Rivers & her outlaws, if Garth was capable of the tasks. And to quote you, that makes this whole endeavour even more cluttered than it already is with my proposal or some other one.

[The Wondering Wolf]

5 hours ago, Lord Corlys Velaryon said:

Chances are Lord Alton (or his successor) was among those who lost lands for their former support of Maegor when Jaehaerys I became king, thus the Butterwells were relieved of LHT. The Rootes had also supported Aegon the Uncrowned against his usurping uncle, so that's surely why they were given the town.

That is what I was thinking, as well.

5 hours ago, Lord Corlys Velaryon said:

Do you think they were Lord & Lady Darry's children or their uncles/cousins?

I would assume the Darry lords during the Dance were brothers. It just makes sense to me, although I can not really base it on anything.

5 hours ago, Lord Corlys Velaryon said:

Only Roland & Derrick are the MUSH characters in the family tree who are canon (besides seemingly Rosamund to some degree & assuming that list hasn't been updated since then),

Rosamund is called Vypren in the list, as women go with their husband's names.

5 hours ago, Lord Corlys Velaryon said:

I wonder if GRRM tweaked the Darrys a little post TPatQ/TWoIaF, hence the discrepancy

I was wondering about that, too. Either that or he had not settled on the Darry relations after the Dance yet, so Elio and Linda went with their own Darry tree to make things work for their game. 

5 hours ago, Lord Corlys Velaryon said:

although I wonder where they then would've been when Aemond descended on Castle Darry

Since Darry men joined Daemon to conquer Stonehedge, Derrick and Roland might have been somewhere else with Darry troops. It seems Castle Darry was not defended by many soldiers, so I can see them fight green forces at some place.

5 hours ago, Lord Corlys Velaryon said:

So how I'm thinking this all works... Lord "Jonothor" dies with his only son on Darry's battlements from Vhagar's fires, his wife & young daughters surviving in the castle vaults. Due to their age, sex, & being in the middle of a war, the late lord's next eldest brother, Derrick, assumes the lordship. Lord Derrick leads the Darry forces at the Second Tumbleton, but dies around the same time as Elmo Tully, so younger brother Roland succeeds him (if Derrick has any children they are too young to rule & perhaps female, besides). Lord Roland leads the Darry men at the Muddy Mess, but is killed by Borros Baratheon.

Agreed.

5 hours ago, Lord Corlys Velaryon said:

He has at least one son & younger brother/uncle/cousin Ser Damon does not seize the lordship, but rather acts as regent &/or castellan for the boy.

It is possible Roland had a son whom Damon acted as regent for, but I can also see the lordship pass to Roland's uncle, and Damon was those uncle's son. Your scenario sounds interesting, there could be a few reasons why Lord Darry sent Damon instead of going himself, though. On the other hand, if Damon joined the Kingsguard, he would have to be a younger son, making things a bit convoluted again. If we only already had F&B 2...

[Lord Varys]

Guys, lords can join the Kingsguard, too. If Damon Darry is Lord of Darry there could be reasons why he might give up the lordship to be a KG.

Say, Aemond's son destroys Castle Darry yet again with his dragon or Alys and her men slaughter his family and take possession of his castle, installing their own puppet lord Darry there (from a different branch, say). Damon could then join the Kingsguard during this war against the pretender, or he could do it afterwards once he no longer sees any purpose in being the Lord of Darry when his beloved wife and children are dead.

Those kind of stories are more interesting than the standard thing of only younger sons joining the KG. Barristan Selmy was also not a younger son, as it happens. And neither was Jaime Lannister.

[FictionIsntReal]

On 7/1/2020 at 4:56 PM, Lord Varys said:

Guys, lords can join the Kingsguard, too.

There's no rule against it, but it seems a lot less likely.

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Say, Aemond's son destroys Castle Darry yet again with his dragon or Alys and her men slaughter his family and take possession of his castle, installing their own puppet lord Darry there (from a different branch, say). Damon could then join the Kingsguard during this war against the pretender, or he could do it afterwards once he no longer sees any purpose in being the Lord of Darry when his beloved wife and children are dead.

You can more easily afford to join a celibate order when there are other people who can continue your family line, as was the case for Benjen Stark after Ned returned home with Robb. If an enemy has installed a rival in your place, it would seem all the more important that you remain viable as an alternate candidate.

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Barristan Selmy was also not a younger son, as it happens. And neither was Jaime Lannister.

Neither was a lord (in the past GRRM had even said the Selmys were merely landed knights before Arstan was noted as a lord). Jaime was also named to spite Tywin, an atypical motive among kings. Jeor Mormont is an example of an actual lord that joined a celibate order.

[Lord Varys]

17 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

There's no rule against it, but it seems a lot less likely.

It is less likely, but not unheard of, and that is literature that is supposed to be entertaining, not probability theory.

17 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

You can more easily afford to join a celibate order when there are other people who can continue your family line, as was the case for Benjen Stark after Ned returned home with Robb. If an enemy has installed a rival in your place, it would seem all the more important that you remain viable as an alternate candidate.

The idea is that 'the right Darrys' end up in possession of the castle after Alys and son are dealt with ... just that Damon Darry doesn't care about being the lord then. Which would fit fine if he turned out to be effectively a KG to his king during the war, or had joined the KG while the pretender had effectively dispossessed Damon.

17 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

Neither was a lord (in the past GRRM had even said the Selmys were merely landed knights before Arstan was noted as a lord). Jaime was also named to spite Tywin, an atypical motive among kings. Jeor Mormont is an example of an actual lord that joined a celibate order.

Jaime Lannister joined the KG because he wanted to, not because he was named a KG against his will. That doesn't happen in the books. It cannot happen, actually.

Being an heir - like Barristan Selmy and Jaime Lannister - isn't exactly the same thing as a being a lord, but it gets pretty close to that.

Lancel Lannister is another Lord of Darry, actually, who joined a religious order and gave up his lordship.

This isn't the rule, but it is hardly unheard of, either.

In fact, the Barristan example shows - most likely quite intentionally on George's part - how the chivalric ideal can overwrite the traditional career path in an heir to a seat in a very talented young man who knows from a very early age on what he wants to do.

Most do follow in the footsteps of their fathers, but not all of them.

[FictionIsntReal]

19 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

It is less likely, but not unheard of, and that is literature that is supposed to be entertaining, not probability theory.

True, but applying a Doylist analysis only means surprises will happen more often than would normally be expected, not that the surprising version is more common than the usual one. A surprise is effective precisely because it's not the norm. And I don't think GRRM has much invested in surprising us all with the revelation that the Demon of Darry joined the KG despite already being a lord.

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Which would fit fine if he turned out to be effectively a KG to his king during the war, or had joined the KG while the pretender had effectively dispossessed Damon.

If Damon is being dispossesed and the king himself doesn't favor that dispossession, wouldn't he have an incentive NOT to name Damon to the KG so as to continue promoting his political claim?

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Jaime Lannister joined the KG because he wanted to, not because he was named a KG against his will. That doesn't happen in the books. It cannot happen, actually.

And if it could happen it would be more likely to see former lords among the KG compared to a scenario where they could object, as we'd expect most lords to do.

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Lancel Lannister is another Lord of Darry, actually, who joined a religious order and gave up his lordship.

He was made lord via marriage, and he has refused to consummate that marriage.

[Lord Varys]

1 hour ago, FictionIsntReal said:

True, but applying a Doylist analysis only means surprises will happen more often than would normally be expected, not that the surprising version is more common than the usual one. A surprise is effective precisely because it's not the norm. And I don't think GRRM has much invested in surprising us all with the revelation that the Demon of Darry joined the KG despite already being a lord.

If Damon is being dispossesed and the king himself doesn't favor that dispossession, wouldn't he have an incentive NOT to name Damon to the KG so as to continue promoting his political claim?

And if it could happen it would be more likely to see former lords among the KG compared to a scenario where they could object, as we'd expect most lords to do.

I don't give a damn, to be honest. I don't even believe Damon Darry is the Lord of Darry. I just can see him being the Demon of Darry, regardless whether he was Lord Darry or merely Ser Damon before he joined the KG. Don't make this more complicated than it is.

1 hour ago, FictionIsntReal said:

He was made lord via marriage, and he has refused to consummate that marriage.

And this is wrong again. Lancel Lannister was made Lord of Darry by royal decree. His marriage was supposed to help make this power grab appear more legitimate but Amerei Frey wasn't granted the lordship of Darry.