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Dany's Fertility


TheLastWolf

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Are the Targaryens not as Godly as they were? Can Dany bear children again?

Yes. Another crackpot theory...no, more of a doubhtish theory. Anyway, these two questions in the title popped up in my mind when I re-read the last chapter of ADWD... and found out  that Dany has the Pale mare a.k.a the bloody flux. 

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"...sunset found her squatting on the grass. Every stool was looser than the one before,and smelled fouler...she was shitting brown water....The more she drank, the more she shat, and the more she shat, the more thirsty she became... crawled to the stream to suck up more water..."

Remember Tyrion saying how the water was infected ? And these are exactly the same symptoms Yezzan had....before he died. But not all died, some recovered. But we know that the Targaryens are never affected by the common ailments (as Dany herself tells while helping the Astapori's sick...though she might've contracted the disease then itself), though the dragonlords' children have known to succumb to the Shivers, greyscale etc...but Dany is no child. HAS THE BLOOD OF THE DRAGON BECOME WEAK ?

Now to the question of her fertility....

See the quotes below, I think that the berries she ate were not those that the Dothraki used but something else that gave back her fertility. So Mirri Maz Duur was either wrong,lied or her curse was broken.

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"In the khalasar, they used berries like these to flavor roasts," she decided.

Saying it aloud made her more certain of it. Her belly rumbled, and Dany found herself picking berries with both hands and tossing them into her mouth.

An hour later, her stomach began to cramp so badly that she could not go on."

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"When the sun rises in the west and sets in the east," said Mirri Maz Duur. "When the seas go dry and mountains blow in the wind like leaves. When your womb quickens again, and you bear a living child. Then he will return, and not before."

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"When she woke gasping her thighs were thick with blood....then she saw the crescent moon...no more than her moon's blood...the moon is still a crescent...how can that be...she tried to remember the last time she had bled...No, it cannot have been so long as that...she saw fresh blood on her thighs....but she did not remember having such a heavy flow...

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The average person would have died from the poison.  Instead she only miscarried.  Some of the Targaryens are very special.  She is apparently one of the special ones.  Dany walked out of a burning fire.  She is the only Targaryen to have successfully hatched stone dragon eggs.  The peasant king tried and died in failure.  No doubt at all, Dany is very special.  George R. R. Martin said as much during an interview.  But you don't need to dig deep.  Use common sense.  How many people instinctively know what to do to bring back an extinct species?  She knew what to do.  How many can walk into a fire and not be burned?  She is special and the usual Targaryen limitations do not apply.

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I don't see what "godliness" has to do with it. The Targaryens were pretty "ungodly" for the most part, coming from a non-Faith of the Seven background and more or less tolerating and giving lip service to the Seven and Old Gods traditions of the heathen Westerosi. Baelor the Boneheaded was the main exception.

That said, I'm with Anck Su Namun.

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The miscarriage doesn't tell us anything either way about what impact MMR's words have had, if any. Infertility can be a problem of conception, and then others can be infertile because despite conceiving easily enough, they can't carry to term for whatever reason. Without Dany having a living child, we've gone nowhere on this.

MMR stated, "When your womb quickens again, and you bear a living child. Then he will return, and not before."

The description of Rhaego and his birth sounds like it resulted in a lot uterine scarring which makes sense with Dany having problems carrying to term but maybe having a lesser impact on being able to conceive. Maybe I'm down-playing the magic in the series a bit too much, but what MMR says just sounds like a mind-f*** way of saying not bloody likely, but hope is the worst curse I can give you sort of thing. This interpretation is pretty consistent with Maggy the Frog actually who goes out of her way to mess with Cersei's head.

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I think that she doesn't have a bloody flux. She ate those berries and got poisoned by them. Seems that Dothraki women use those berries for abortion, and that's what happened to Dany (she was carring Hizdahr's child, or Daario's). Probably, on some stage of their ripening those berries are harmless and edible, while on some stages they can cause abortion, if consumed in small dosage. Though Dany ate a lot of them, and thus she had an extensive loss of blood and fluids, got severely dehydrated. And her dehydration and bleeding were caused by those berries.

Mirri Maz Duur lied to Dany about a lot of things. One of them is that her child, Rhaego, is dead. The statement that Dany will be unable to give birth to more children, was also a lie. Dany is immune to normal human diseases, same as majority of other more or less pureblooded dragonseeds. Aegon IV didn't had a pox. Him, infecting Jeyne Lothston with a pox, was used as an excuse to sent her away from the Red Keep. Because she got pregnant, and the father's child was Aegon, and also Aegon was Jeyne's father. So the birth of their incest-baby could have caused another uprising of the Faith, if it ever became known. Thus the baby was born in secret at Harrenhal, and then was presented by Lucas Lothston, Jeyne's fake father, as his own bastard. Later Aegon died not from pox, but from magical causes. His last mistress, Serenei of Lys (his mother Larra Rogare), was drawing life-force from him to conceive a baby with shadowbinding abbilities. Similar to what Melisande did to Stannis, to give birth to their shadow babies. Serenei gave birth to Shiera Seastar/shadowbinder Quaithe/the 3EC. When Aegon was dying, he was very ill, and maesters said that they never saw anything like that. That's because his illness was caused by magic, not by some human-taint, like pox. Dragonseeds/Targaryens are mostly immune to nearly everything. Rare cases when they were affected by common diseases, were, most likely, in result of those particual dragonseeds having less dragon-blood genes and more common-human genes. For example, Baelor, son of King Daeron and Mariah Martell, had his mother's Dornish looks. Thus, most likely, he was more a human, and less a dragon, compared with other Targaryens. Both of his sons died from the Great Spring Sickness. Same element, probably, could be found in cases of other dragonseeds, that died from common-human diseases.

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3 hours ago, Lollygag said:

Maybe I'm down-playing the magic in the series a bit too much, but what MMR says just sounds like a mind-f*** way of saying not bloody likely, but hope is the worst curse I can give you sort of thing. This interpretation is pretty consistent with Maggy the Frog actually who goes out of her way to mess with Cersei's head

I like the non-magic explanations quite a lot. A fertility curse is a bit too uber fantasy for me. Sometimes its just a fact of life that women become infertile. 

Or, you could take the view that, Dany is special and just inherently superior genetically. She can cure her own cancer. Her special ubermensch Targaryen antibodies can punch dysentery in the face. And if course, no woman could cure her own infertility. . . Except for Daenerys. :P

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It was an abortion, I also think there is no curse of infertility at all, MMD thought Dany would never have another man after Drogo's death, since she would be taken to Dosh Khaleen, or after seeing Dany's baby's weird condition she came to the conclusion that Dany would never give birth to a living child.  About targaryens not getting sick, must have been something Viserys told her, some targaryens were sick. Maybe in childhood she was sick a few times, or never, not that it is something supernatural, but that she and Viserys only have higher immunity than usual. 

 

 

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This thing with fertility can go in many directions.  One says Daenerys was crippled.  Making a woman barren is crippling her.  So goes the theory of Daenerys and Bran being the parallel pair in this tale.  But, as we will soon learn, Bran will find a way around the lack of use of his legs.  Daenerys will do the same.  I don't think it will be an adoption thing.  Look here, the girl hatched three dragons from three rocks.  

I don't think dynastic rule will survive the long night.  So all this talk of whether Daenerys or any other character can have children is not going to be much of an issue.  And we are talking about a teenager.  The issue is not going to be pressing either way.  

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I had always assumed that Miri Maz Duur's description of Dany's "monstrous" baby was totally fabricated, a lie she told to cover up the way she had sacrificed the newborn to her spells. Rhaego was "full of grave worms. He had been dead for years" was proof, as far as I was concerned. Dead "for years"? Dany wasn't pregnant but 9 months or thereabouts. And graveworms? Seriously?

Although the promise of Dany's future barrenness was chilling. Miri Maz Duur could easily have inflicted some kind of damage on Dany's womb to ensure barrenness, as a further revenge. Thus, her final words were neither hyperbole, metaphor, or prophesy, but a diagnosis.
 

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It is a cornerstone of the magical/prophetical side of the series. Rhaego's "sacrifice" brought Dany her dragons. She will lose her dragons. With a world needing saving she will need another child to sacrifice to again awaken a dragon. Only she will keep miscarrying, the problem will seemingly be the attempted fathers not being of good enough dragon blood.

Enter Jon and the purpose to his bloodline.

And the crescendo of the series, does Dany's fiery passion lead her to sacrifice her child to save the world? Does a dispassionate armoured in ice Jon just sit by and let her?

The language and themes on both sides is very pointed.

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"You warned me that only death could pay for life. I thought you meant the horse."

"No," Mirri Maz Duur said. "That was a lie you told yourself. You knew the price."

Had she? Had she? If I look back I am lost.

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She thought of Doreah, of Quaro, of Eroeh … of a little girl she had never met, whose name had been Hazzea. Better a few should die in the pit than thousands at the gates. This is the price of peace, I pay it willingly. If I look back, I am lost.

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"Drogon killed a little girl. Her name was … her name …" Dany could not recall the child's name. That made her so sad that she would have cried if all her tears had not been burned away. "I will never have a little girl. I was the Mother of Dragons."

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"I told you, I know our little queen. Let her hear that her brother Rhaegar's murdered son is still alive, that this brave boy has raised the dragon standard of her forebears in Westeros once more, that he is fighting a desperate war to avenge his father and reclaim the Iron Throne for House Targaryen, hard-pressed on every side … and she will fly to your side as fast as wind and water can carry her. You are the last of her line, and this Mother of Dragons, this Breaker of Chains, is above all a rescuer.

.

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Jon trembled. "I will never father a bastard," he said carefully. "Never!" He spat it out like venom.

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"You're bastard-born yourself. And if Ygritte does not want a child, she will go to some woods witch and drink a cup o' moon tea. You do not come into it, once the seed is planted."

"I will not father a bastard."

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"There is power in a king's blood," the old maester had warned, "and better men than Stannis have done worse things than this." The king can be harsh and unforgiving, aye, but a babe still on the breast? Only a monster would give a living child to the flames.

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"He's of my village. You know nothing, Jon Snow. A true man steals a woman from afar, t' strengthen the clan. Women who bed brothers or fathers or clan kin offend the gods, and are cursed with weak and sickly children. Even monsters."

The world is conspiring to tell Dany it is her responsibility to save it, that it is her role to have and sacrifice this child. And the world is telling Jon it is his role not to intervene, to sit out of it.

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Dragon babies have been born of the Targaryans.  The only instances I recall are Maegor's and Rhaego, but there are others.  Seems to me this specific instance of birth denotes actual dragon blood in the line.  I like the magic, heap it on.  While literally having blood of dragons may not be godliness it definitely indicates "otherness" which allows the Targs superhuman power.   Dreams, visions, command of dragons--that seems to be the type of magic that could stand up next to any of the heroes from the Age of Heroes.  And kick any of their asses.   Dragons are a pretty big deal.  

I've always understood Dany got sick and miscarried by eating the berries.  Being an organic purgative, the berries would have the same reaction on any human type being.   She hasn't got the pale mare.  She ingested a type of moon tea.  

Real world science aside, Dany's womb quickened.  That was the only part of the deal.   Mirri didn't say she had to give birth to a live child or endure a full term pregnancy.   I am hoping this is an indication that she may actually have a child someday.  

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The Targaryens are from the direct blood line of the ancient royal family of the great empire of the dawn.  I am sure they are not the only ones.  There must others who are scattered across the planet.  The god-like rulers of the first empire are not like other humans.  They have abilities which surpass those of regular people.  Viserys and Daenerys never so much as caught the flu.  That is very unusual for children living under stress.  I do not think Daenerys will bear children in the regular way.  She will have at least one child and that son will be conceived and birthed by miracle.  Jon Snow will once again commit treason and cause the death of Drogon.  Daenerys will slow roast Jon to a crisp.  Jon's death will help pay for the miracle.  Of course, he is not worth the life of a dragon.  Mellisandre may also get sacrificed into the fire.  Drogo's soul, which is Drogon, will migrate to a new host body.  It will have to be a child's body. 

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7 hours ago, Lord Lannister said:

This topic title seems misleading. I never understood why everyone takes MMD's words as set in stone. She had a clear agenda in wounding Dany with them. 

And I might also, MMD doesn't know everything.  Might she not have seen her own death coming if she was that powerful of a seer?  

She did the most direct thing if Dany's womb is damaged.  No curse was needed.  She purposely did it while delivering Rhaego.  

 

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On 6/28/2020 at 2:30 PM, Quoth the raven, said:

But, as we will soon learn, Bran will find a way around the lack of use of his legs

That would be extremely ableist if he was to walk again. The disability community has lambasted miracle walking cures portrayed in the media for years, but Hollywood keeps writing them. 

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On 6/28/2020 at 8:18 PM, Curled Finger said:

 Real world science aside, Dany's womb quickened.  That was the only part of the deal.   Mirri didn't say she had to give birth to a live child or endure a full term pregnancy.   I am hoping this is an indication that she may actually have a child someday.  

I believe "quickening" is when a woman starts to feel the fetus in her uterus, which Mirri said wont happen. She could have a succession of early miscarriages I suppose. 

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18 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

I believe "quickening" is when a woman starts to feel the fetus in her uterus, which Mirri said wont happen. She could have a succession of early miscarriages I suppose. 

You are 100% correct, please forgive my misinterpretation of the word.  It is a very odd word to use in this curse as "quickening" can occur as early as 17 weeks.  With this in mind, I cannot even begin to imagine how badly this will go for us as readers.   That 1st one was plenty bad enough.  

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On 6/29/2020 at 8:48 AM, Curled Finger said:

Dragon babies have been born of the Targaryans.  The only instances I recall are Maegor's and Rhaego, but there are others.  Seems to me this specific instance of birth denotes actual dragon blood in the line.  I like the magic, heap it on.  While literally having blood of dragons may not be godliness it definitely indicates "otherness" which allows the Targs superhuman power.   Dreams, visions, command of dragons--that seems to be the type of magic that could stand up next to any of the heroes from the Age of Heroes.  And kick any of their asses.   Dragons are a pretty big deal.  

I've always understood Dany got sick and miscarried by eating the berries.  Being an organic purgative, the berries would have the same reaction on any human type being.   She hasn't got the pale mare.  She ingested a type of moon tea.  

Real world science aside, Dany's womb quickened.  That was the only part of the deal.   Mirri didn't say she had to give birth to a live child or endure a full term pregnancy.   I am hoping this is an indication that she may actually have a child someday.  

https://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/157262-the-true-identity-of-daenerys-theory/

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  • 2 months later...
On 6/28/2020 at 8:35 AM, Anck Su Namun said:

The average person would have died from the poison.  Instead she only miscarried.  Some of the Targaryens are very special.  She is apparently one of the special ones.  Dany walked out of a burning fire.  She is the only Targaryen to have successfully hatched stone dragon eggs.  The peasant king tried and died in failure.  No doubt at all, Dany is very special.  George R. R. Martin said as much during an interview.  But you don't need to dig deep.  Use common sense.  How many people instinctively know what to do to bring back an extinct species?  She knew what to do.  How many can walk into a fire and not be burned?  She is special and the usual Targaryen limitations do not apply.

agreed

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