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Lord Eunuch's 'little birds'


TheLastWolf

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8 hours ago, TheLastWolf said:

Hope you read @Megorova's comment #16 of this post

And i'd like to hear your views on this Meg since you were so sure and yet did not explain. I know that there was a thread for it(where i posted this) but it may influence the VARYS AND LF plots and my LITTLE BIRDS theory

 

All of those people listed still have a tongue and can speak, therefore, they were not little birds. There is a difference between "little birds" and people who may have spied for Varys in some capacity overt the years. Inexact language makes for bad theories. Lots of people may have provided Varys with information over the years, but it doesn't matter because it will never come up in the story and probably never be relevant. What could come up in the story that would be relevant that nearly every secondary or tertiary or beyond character spied for Varys?

Casting an infinite net is similar to a broken clock, which is right twice a day. At the end of the day, there is little point in spinning endless, unverifiable theories.

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On 7/22/2020 at 3:00 AM, Megorova said:

Catelyn didn't knew.

 

Agreed

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"In the following fortnight, they slept together again.

There is no evidence of this. The only known time Lysa and Petyr slept together before their wedding night was when Lysa raped drunken Petyr the first time when they were teens.

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Lysa became pregnant with Petyr's child as a result of this.[14] After Hoster had Petyr sent back to the Fingers, Lysa revealed her pregnancy to her father, hoping that Hoster would relent and let her wed Petyr. Hoster, who had always felt Petyr was too lowborn,[4] instead forced Lysa to abort the child with moon tea provided by Maester Kym.[14][25] Lysa nearly died from this.[26]"

[14] is Sansa's POV, Lysa herself said to her about what happened between her and LF.

The 14 reference does not include information that Lysa and Petyr slept together more than the one time she raped him. Nor does any of the others. 

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She had no idea, and neither did Jon. Otherwise Jon wouldn't have given to Petyr control of customs at Gulltown, on Lysa's request. He thought that Lysa and Petyr are just childhood friends, he had no idea that they had an affair, prior and thru duration of Lysa's marriage with Jon.

Agreed.

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and he never suspected anything, while LF was bonking Lysa behind his back.

There is no evidence Littlefinger was bonking Lysa behind his back. What evidence there is suggests Littlefinger was not bonking her, but encouraging her passion for him while keeping her frustrated.

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"No." She stamped a foot. "I want you now, this very night. And I must warn you, after all these years of silence and whisperings, I mean to scream when you love me. I am going to scream so loud they'll hear me in the Eyrie!"

I understand how this could be read as Littlefinger and Lysa bonking silently while only whispering. It also, more reasonably for Littlefinger, and more fittingly with her clearly frustrated passion for him, fits perfects with Littlefinger stringing Lysa along without physical sex for all those years. Plus that fits better with her demand that he marry her before she eagerly resolves her sexual frustrations.
An ambiguous passage that has substantially better resolution in one direction is not evidence in another direction.

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LF was given post at Gulltown's port around 289. Then he was brought by Jon to court at King's Landing, and within three years was given a post of the Master of coin in the Small Council. Within 3 years from 289 is 291, and early 291 is when Robert Arryn was conceived (he was born in late 291, his birthday is either in October or November). An appointment to the Small Council was Lysa's reward to Petyr for a successful conception. After five failed pregnancies from Jon Arryn, Lysa finally had a viable baby that she made with Petyr.

The underlined parts are pure supposition. Petyr's excellent performance in Gulltown was the reason for Jon bringing him to court. Probably urged by Lysa, sure, but nothing to do with her pregnancy.
Mind you, once Jon has an heir, he's likely to be less ... insistent ... in doing his husbandly duties, potentially leaving her with more free time and more possibilities to finally get Littlefinger back into her bed - from her POV at least. There's nothing in it for Littlefinger though. He already has her patronage and can continue cultivating that without fucking the woman he doesn't care for.

Also note that although you can make the timeline fit, you have to squeeze it absolutely at one end. Littlefinger has to get to court within the first couple of months of 291 in order to get Lysa pregnant in time for Sweetrobin to be bron in Oct/Nov 291. Whereas the range of 'within 3 years' (and not some other description more fitting if it wasn't close to 3 years) of 289 extends from early 291 into late 292. In order to fit your timeline, he must be appointed very early (Jan, basically) in 289, spend just barely over 2 years in Gulltown, then be called to KL in early 291 Jan or Feb) . And then, the 'within 3 years' wording becomes rather odd. Technically correct, but it would be more likely to read something like "in barely 2 years". 
The 3 years is after coming to court. My misunderstanding.

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Little Robert is weak due to various reasons.

Its real simple. Jon and Lysa made a bad genetic pair, for whatever reason, be it his heritage, his age, damage to her from the tansy episode or a combination of those. They conceived relatively easily but the children were genetically flawed and mostly failed to carry to term. That one barely made it, and is weak, is of no surprise.

 

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8 hours ago, Ser Leftwich said:

All of those people listed still have a tongue and can speak, therefore, they were not little birds.

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I think that Varys' little birds are NOT mute, their tongues weren't cut out.

The only source of information, that all of those children are supposedly tongueless, is this - https://towerofthehand.com/blog/2013/05/27-conquest-44-report-grrm/

"Varys' little birds do have their tongues cut out. They are "provided to him" that way."

<- I think that this information is unreliable.

Because of five reasons:

1. It's not a direct quote from GRRM.

2. AGOT, Eddard's chapter whatever number - "“Leave Lord Varys to me, sweet lady. If you will permit me a small obscenity—and where better for it than here—I hold the man’s balls in the palm of my hand.” He cupped his fingers, smiling. “Or would, if he were a man, or had any balls. You see, if the pie is opened, the birds begin to sing, and Varys would not like that. Were I you, I would worry more about the Lannisters and less about the eunuch.”"

Littlefinger obviously meant Varys' little birds, and how can they "sing" (reveal Varys' secrets to Littlefinger), if they have no tongues?

3. In the GOT-Tv show Varys' little birds weren't mute or tongueless, they talked with Qyburn.

4. There are "mistakes" or intentional/unintentional misleads even in the Citadel, in the So Spake Martin.

For example, information about year of death of Larra Rogare, here -

https://www.westeros.org/BoD/Transcripts/Entry/The_World_of_Ice_and_Fire_AMA

"Following the release of The World of Ice and Fire, we invited players on the game to an “AMA” inspired session of talk about the book. ...

Elmer says, “I had a question. Larra Rogare is mentioned to have left Westeros at some point…do we know when? I assume she’s ot present in our timeline?”

Jyana says, “I’m flipping through, too, but all my questions would be of the, “Can we have someone from Yi Ti show up at some point?” variety, which. Y’know.”

Balerion says, “Not opposed to some plot where a scholar or adventurer of Yi Ti comes along to record the histories of the barbarians out west.”

Balerion says, “Larra’s not around. Let me see…”

You say, “That reminds me, there are a few things we need to get into the family trees now that the book is out, stuff we felt was too spoilery beforehand.”

Balerion says, “Oh, another feast day: Smith’s Day”

Balerion says, “So, yeah, the Seven each have a feast day except maybe the Stranger…”

Jyana says, “Don’t think I’m not tucking that Yi Ti thing away for later.”

Balerion says, “There it is. She goes back to Lys in 139, and passes away in 145.” "

Can someone point for me - where exactly in The World Book is it written that Larra Rogare died in 145? It isn't there. IT ISN'T.

Those people were wrong about Larra, and those other people (from the first link in this post) also could be wrong about little birds.

5. Arya heard only part of that conversation between Varys and Illyrio, so readers could have misinterpreted what was said, while the whole phrase could have been something like this:

"We wouldn't have had this crisis now, if they kept their tongues to themselves, and didn't spilled their beans to Littlefinger."

 

So, there are several options of how did it happened, that this readers' misconception, that all of Varys' little birds are supposedly mute, became a canon - 1. GRRM is unaware of how readers interpreted what was said in AGOT; 2. GRRM is aware that readers misinterpreted what was said in AGOT, but he isn't correcting them, because this way it's more convenient for him. Because, while readers think that all little birds are mute, they won't suspect that amongst grown up characters of ASOIAF, characters who are not mute, there are Big birds, people that used to be Varys' little birds, people such as Shae, Bronn, Brella, even Littlefinger himself.

Readers often make mistakes/misconceptions, and George Martin doesn't correct them, not always. For example, he is aware that nearly all readers think that the Three-Eyed Crow is Brynden Rivers, but he doesn't correct them, because it is his intention to misguide them. Apparently, I'm alone in my knowledge, that the Three-Eyed Crow is Shiera Seastar. Apparently, I will have to wait for TWOW's release to discuss this topic with other readers, when they will finally catch up with me.

@Megorova makes a fine point. I t is not mandatory for all little birds to be mute. I have different points to add, which I will in a few hours..../days. @Ser Leftwich

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1 hour ago, TheLastWolf said:

@Megorova makes a fine point. I t is not mandatory for all little birds to be mute. I have different points to add, which I will in a few hours..../days. @Ser Leftwich

That report is not the source. The discussion between Varys and Illyrio under the red keep is.

1. Its a direct textual reference in AGoT.
2. Little finger referencing singing birds is not relevant - Littlefinger isn't involved in the real little birds and only knows of them from Varys. He merely uses the bird/singing reference because its clever and suitable, not because he knows the birds can actually sing.
3. The show is emphatically not a relevant source for anything.
4. Irrelevant, its the text you need to worry about.
5. Making shit up that doesn't actually fit the conversation or what GRRM is telling us isn't relevant either.

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Circular logic, so no.

To paraphrase from The Royal Tannenbaums, "Well, everyone knows Rhaegar died at the Trident. What this theory presupposes is... maybe he didn't."

Saying that other things happened or were said than what we know to have happened or to have been said is, in a word, bollocks.

See what @corbon said above. "Little birds" are a specific sub-set of spies that crawl around in the passages of the Red Keep. Stretching that is beyond credulity.

1) Semantics. Notes of SSMs are taken on good faith of the note takers.

2) This is unrelated nonsense. Birds in a pie is a common practice in world (see Joff's wedding) and from real history as a practice (birds in a pie) and a saying (birds singing = revealing secrets).

3) Show examples are irrelevant.

4) Anything might be a mistake. However, there is actual text (Arya's overhearing) and the SSM that verify. Two source independent verification is better than, "maybe it is a mistake."

5) Absence of evidence is not evidence. We only have the text. Making up text is, frankly, bullshit.

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1 hour ago, Ser Leftwich said:

"Little birds" are a specific sub-set of spies

The list I put forth to clarify, @Megorova's list and all, considered Varys's informers to be subsets, as you put it. Maybe the adult informers were littlebirds who didn't lose their tongues for great spying. Or as Meg said, the birds never lose their tongues...in most cases at least.

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14 hours ago, corbon said:

Also note that although you can make the timeline fit, you have to squeeze it absolutely at one end. Littlefinger has to get to court within the first couple of months of 291 in order to get Lysa pregnant in time for Sweetrobin to be bron in Oct/Nov 291. Whereas the range of 'within 3 years' (and not some other description more fitting if it wasn't close to 3 years) of 289 extends from early 291 into late 292. In order to fit your timeline, he must be appointed very early (Jan, basically) in 289, spend just barely over 2 years in Gulltown, then be called to KL in early 291 Jan or Feb) . And then, the 'within 3 years' wording becomes rather odd. Technically correct, but it would be more likely to read something like "in barely 2 years". 

No, no, no. This ->

1. Early 289 - Petyr got a post at Gulltown's port.

2. He was brought to King's Landing to royal court.

3. Less than three years after joining court (not three years after 289), he became the Master of coin.

So, first Robert was born, and then LF joined Small Council.

289 <1> 290 <2> 291 <3> 292.

Lysa gave birth to Robert in late 291, and then she needed additional several months to recover and to persuade Jon to appoint Petyr to Small Council, which happened in 292, after Robert's birth. 

This is happening in early 299 - ACOK, Tyrion IV "Ten years ago, Jon Arryn had given him a minor sinecure in customs, where Lord Petyr had soon distinguished himself by bringing in three times as much as any of the king’s other collectors. King Robert had been a prodigious spender. A man like Petyr Baelish, who had a gift for rubbing two golden dragons together to breed a third, was invaluable to his Hand. Littlefinger’s rise had been arrow-swift. Within three years of his coming to court, he was master of coin and a member of the small council, and today the crown’s revenues were ten times what they had been under his beleaguered predecessor . . . though the crown’s debts had grown vast as well. A master juggler was Petyr Baelish."

"Jon gave him the customs for Gulltown to please me, but when he increased the incomes tenfold my lord husband saw how clever he was and gave him other appointments, even brought him to King’s Landing to be master of coin. That was hard, to see him every day and still be wed to that old cold man." - ASOS.

<- Based on what Tyrion said, what Lysa said doesn't mean that Petyr immediately became the Master of coin after his arrival to KL, it means that he joined SM within three years after relocating to KL. And in span of those ~3 years, Lysa and Petyr saw each other every day.

14 hours ago, corbon said:

The 14 reference does not include information that Lysa and Petyr slept together more than the one time she raped him. Nor does any of the others. 

This is that first time:

" “How would you know? Were you there?” Lysa descended from the high seat, her skirts swirling. “Did you come with Lord Bracken and Lord Blackwood, the time they visited to lay their feud before my father? Lord Bracken’s singer played for us, and Catelyn danced six dances with Petyr that night, six, I counted. When the lords began to argue my father took them up to his audience chamber, so there was no one to stop us drinking. Edmure got drunk, young as he was… and Petyr tried to kiss your mother, only she pushed him away. She laughed at him. He looked so wounded I thought my heart would burst, and afterward he drank until he passed out at the table. Uncle Brynden carried him up to bed before my father could find him like that. But you remember none of it, do you?” She looked down angrily. “Do you?”

Is she drunk, or mad? “I was not born, my lady.”

“You were not born. But I was, so do not presume to tell what is true. I know what is true. You kissed him!”

“He kissed me,” Sansa insisted again. “I never wanted—”

“Be quiet, I haven’t given you leave to speak. You enticed him, just as your mother did that night in Riverrun, with her smiles and her dancing. You think I could forget? That was the night I stole up to his bed to give him comfort. I bled, but it was the sweetest hurt. He told me he loved me then, but he called me Cat, just before he fell back to sleep. Even so, I stayed with him until the sky began to lighten."

 

The information that Lysa and Petyr had sex second time, while he was recovering after his duel with Brandon, is from mobile App, this - https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/A_World_of_Ice_and_Fire

Older sisters are supposed to marry/engage first. According to that App, "On the night Catelyn's betrothal to Brandon Stark was announced,[25] Petyr, after having danced with Catelyn, tried to kiss her, and she rejected him, laughing." That's when they had sex first time. Some time after that, in early 281, Hoster Tully was contemplating to engage Lysa to Jaime.

ASOS, Jaime II - "Jaime, meantime, had spent four years as squire to Ser Sumner Crakehall and earned his spurs against the Kingswood Brotherhood. But when he made a brief call at King’s Landing on his way back to Casterly Rock, chiefly to see his sister, Cersei took him aside and whispered that Lord Tywin meant to marry him to Lysa Tully, had gone so far as to invite Lord Hoster to the city to discuss dower. But if Jaime took the white, he could be near her always."

Jaime joined Kingsguards at the Tournament at Harrenhal, in late 281. So negotiations about his possible marriage with Lysa were happening in early 281 (prior Jaime's confrontation with the Kingswood Brotherhood (which, in my opinion, happened on April 1 of 281, that's the day when were conceived Elia's Aegon and fAegon)), and it was happening already after Catelyn got officially betrothed to Brandon, and Lysa had sex with Petyr on the day their engagement was announced. Catelyn was betrothed to Brandon, when she was 12 years old, in 276 or 277 <- this information is also from the App. Announcement happened several years after the negotiations about betrothal. Lysa is 2 years younger than Cat, and Petyr was born either same year as Lysa, or 1 or 2 years later. And I doubt that Lysa had sex with Petyr, when she was 10 years old and he was 8 or 9. Thus, the betrothal was announced years after Hoster and Rickard agreed to marry their children. And the announcement was made no later than in early 281. By the time when Hoster was contemplating Lysa's possible marriage with Jaime, Cat, as an older sister, was already set to marry/the betrothal was made official, and Lysa had already gave her virginity to Petyr.

Based on that Cat's chapter, in which she realised that Hoster made Lysa abort her pregnancy, it seems that at the time of the wedding with Jon Arryn, Lysa was still pregnant, and she was under impression that she was allowed to keep that baby, and that she will pose him as Jon Arryn's child, and that he will be growing up together with Cat's child. At the time of that wedding Lysa was already 4-5 months pregnant, so after the wedding, when Jon left Riverrun, Hoster gave tansy-potion to Lysa, because nobody would have believed that the baby is Jon's, if it was born so soon after the wedding. For Lysa to still be pregnant in early 283, when was held her wedding, she had to have sex with Petyr in late 282, approximately around that time when Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna, and Petyr fought in a duel with Brandon, before the kidnapping became known and Brandon went to KL. 

The announcement of Cat's betrothal (and that's when Petyr and Lysa had sex for the first time) happened prior Tournament at Harrenhal, no later than in late 281, and Lysa was pregnant in early 283, at the time of her wedding with Jon <- for that to be so, she didn't became pregnant during that first time, she got pregnant in 282, thus she had sex with Petyr more than once - in/or before 281 and in late 282.

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Has Sweet Robin's eye color ever been established in the book?  I know it indicated that he had "big eyes" but I don't think their color was ever described.  If he had brown eyes, then that's probably a definitive tell that he's not Arryn's son.  Jon Arryn had pale blue eyes, and Lysa had watery blue eyes they certainly should not be able to have a brown eyed child.

The closest indication I got was Little Robin's portrait by AMOK.  It's my understanding that the artist got pretty detailed descriptions of the characters he/she drew from GRRM.  In Little Robin's portrait, it look like he has dark blue eyes.

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I think that Littlefinger's personal sigil, which is a mocking bird, is a hint that Petyr in the past was one of Vary's little birds. If my assumption is correct, then it's an evidence, that not all little birds are tongueless/were made mute.

In TWOW, with Varys out of the Red Keep, we will get significantly more information about how and from whom does he get his intel.

@TheLastWolf

@corbon @Ser Leftwich

Also this, in ADWD's Epilogue:

"He might have said more, but the dark-haired novice with the round cheeks returned to say, “My lord, my lady, I am sorry to intrude, but there is a boy below. Grand Maester Pycelle begs the favor of the Lord Regent’s presence at once.

Dark wings, dark words, Ser Kevan thought. Could Storm’s End have fallen? Or might this be word from Bolton in the north?

“It might be news of Jaime,” the queen said.

There was only one way to know. Ser Kevan rose. “Pray excuse me.” Before he took his leave, he dropped to one knee and kissed his niece upon the hand. If her silent giant failed her, it might be the last kiss she would ever know.

The messenger was a boy of eight or nine, so bundled up in fur he seemed a bear cub. Trant had kept him waiting out on the drawbridge rather than admit him into Maegor’s. “Go find a fire, lad,” Ser Kevan told him, pressing a penny into his hand. “I know the way to the rookery well enough.” "

 

If that boy is mute, then how did he conveyed to that dark-haired novice-girl, that he was sent there by Pycelle, and that Pycelle asked Kevan to come to him ASAP (as soon as possible)?

 

- If the boy was mute, then how did whoever relayed the message from him to Kevan (from the boy to Trant to novice-girl to Kevan), figured out that this boy was sent by Pycelle, and that he came to fetch Kevan Lannister?

- Did that novice-girl or Trant knew Sign Language, and that's how they were able to communicate?

- Pycelle didn't wrote any messages with request to Kevan to come to him. Because Pycelle was dead.

- If there was a written message, then did whoever actually wrote it, faked Pycelle's handwriting? And whoever took that message from that boy, didn't recognized that the message wasn't written by Pycelle?

- Trant kept the boy outside, it was night and dark there, thus not enough light to read a written message, if the boy is supposedly mute and brought a written message from Pycelle, that he gave to ... to whom would he have given that written message, and if there was a written message, then why the novice-girl didn't brought that message to Kevan?

- Just imagine how did that scene happened - some strange mute boy comes to the gates of Maegor's Holdfast, where he is met by Merin Trant. Then what??? They are outside, where it's a winter night, dark and snowing. Then the boy gives a piece of parchment to Trant. And Trant has a night vision ability, and he reads the message. Or he goes back into the keep to reed the message, while the boy is left to stand outside. By laws of logic and logical writting, if there was a note, then that note should have been folded, and on the outer side of it should have been written from whom is it and to whom was it sent, like - From Pycelle to Kevan. In this case afterwards Trant would have called someone to deliver that note to Kevan. Though the novice-girl, that informed Kevan about that messenger-boy, didn't brought to him any notes, she came to him with a voice message. Where's the note? Did Trant kept it to himself? Why would he? Did the girl took that note, opened it and read it, and then verbally delived the content of the message to Kevan? Did Trant opened that note and read it himself, and only then fetched that girl to deliver a verbal message to Kevan, but kept the note for himself, what for? If on the note it was written that it's from Pycelle to Kevan, then why would have Trant or that girl opened it and read it and didn't instead brought it to Kevan? That doesn't make any sense. Even if the note wasn't signed on the outside, and whoever took it from that boy (whether it was Trant or a novice-girl), had to open that note and to read it, to know what is it about and to whom was it sent, it's not a reason not to bring the note itself to whomever it was adressed - to Kevan. No one brought any notes or written messages to Kevan, because there wasn't any of those. And if the message, that was supposedly from Pycelle to fetch Kevan, wasn't written, then how else was this information conveyed from that boy to whoever met him at the keep's gates? If the boy was mute, then did he and Trant communicated in Sign Languade? And it just happened so, that Trant knows Sign Language. What a lucky coincidence :)

- There was no written message, and it's very unlikely that Trant or novice-girl know Sign Language. Thus, the only way how information could have been delivered from that boy to Trant and to that novice-girl, is VERBALLY. Which means that the boy wasn't mute. And because he is definitely one of Varys' little birds, this boy is an evidence that little birds are NOT MUTE.

- If all of Varys' little birds are mute, if that's a "trend", then shouldn't have people at the Red Keep know about this? Shouldn't Cersei and Kevan and Trant and other guards and servants know about it? Lannisters know that it was Varys who helped Tyrion to escape and to kill Tywin. So, if a mute boy came to Maegor's Holdfast to deliver a message, shouldn't have Trant and other guards seized him the moment it became evident that he is mute/Varys' little bird?

8 hours ago, Ser Leftwich said:

We only have the text. Making up text is, frankly, bullshit.

11 hours ago, corbon said:

Its a direct textual reference in AGoT.

And that scene with the Not-Mute-boy, is in the book's text.

I provided an array of logical bullets as support of my theory.

:D

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37 minutes ago, Megorova said:

He might have said more, but the dark-haired novice with the round cheeks returned to say, “My lord, my lady, I am sorry to intrude, but there is a boy below. Grand Maester Pycelle begs the favor of the Lord Regent’s presence at once.

Dark wings, dark words, Ser Kevan thought. Could Storm’s End have fallen? Or might this be word from Bolton in the north?

“It might be news of Jaime,” the queen said.

There was only one way to know. Ser Kevan rose. “Pray excuse me.” Before he took his leave, he dropped to one knee and kissed his niece upon the hand. If her silent giant failed her, it might be the last kiss she would ever know.

The messenger was a boy of eight or nine, so bundled up in fur he seemed a bear cub. Trant had kept him waiting out on the drawbridge rather than admit him into Maegor’s. “Go find a fire, lad,” Ser Kevan told him, pressing a penny into his hand. “I know the way to the rookery well enough.” "

 

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We see that the girl who opened the door for Kevan is among his killers... but where is the boy who fetched him? His age, appearance, dressing all suggests him to be one of Varys's little birds. Maybe Kevan did not see fit to mention him... he was busy dying after all. 

At last something like an answer. Thanks @Megorova

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9 hours ago, Megorova said:

No, no, no. This ->

1. Early 289 - Petyr got a post at Gulltown's port.

2. He was brought to King's Landing to royal court.

3. Less than three years after joining court (not three years after 289), he became the Master of coin.

Ok, I misunderstood from your references. Its a fair cop gov. Littlefinger seems to have been at court before Lysa got pregnant. 
That does not mean he was sleeping with her though.

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That was hard, to see him every day and still be wed to that old cold man." - ASOS.

<- Based on what Tyrion said, what Lysa said doesn't mean that Petyr immediately became the Master of coin after his arrival to KL, it means that he joined SM within three years after relocating to KL. And in span of those ~3 years, Lysa and Petyr saw each other every day.

Agreed. 
And note that it was hard for her. She wasn't getting 'satisfaction', only whispers and silence. She was married to Jon and he was still trying to get an heir on her.

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This is that first time:

" “How would you know? Were you there?” Lysa descended from the high seat, her skirts swirling. “Did you come with Lord Bracken and Lord Blackwood, the time they visited to lay their feud before my father? Lord Bracken’s singer played for us, and Catelyn danced six dances with Petyr that night, six, I counted. When the lords began to argue my father took them up to his audience chamber, so there was no one to stop us drinking. Edmure got drunk, young as he was… and Petyr tried to kiss your mother, only she pushed him away. She laughed at him. He looked so wounded I thought my heart would burst, and afterward he drank until he passed out at the table. Uncle Brynden carried him up to bed before my father could find him like that. But you remember none of it, do you?” She looked down angrily. “Do you?”

Is she drunk, or mad? “I was not born, my lady.”

“You were not born. But I was, so do not presume to tell what is true. I know what is true. You kissed him!”

“He kissed me,” Sansa insisted again. “I never wanted—”

“Be quiet, I haven’t given you leave to speak. You enticed him, just as your mother did that night in Riverrun, with her smiles and her dancing. You think I could forget? That was the night I stole up to his bed to give him comfort. I bled, but it was the sweetest hurt. He told me he loved me then, but he called me Cat, just before he fell back to sleep. Even so, I stayed with him until the sky began to lighten."

Right. 
He thought she was Cat, whom he clearly did love, and called her so. He never knew it was Lysa there because he was passed out when she stole into his bed and he never 'woke' sufficiently to tell the difference. He thought she was Cat.

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The information that Lysa and Petyr had sex second time, while he was recovering after his duel with Brandon, is from mobile App, this - https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/A_World_of_Ice_and_Fire

Older sisters are supposed to marry/engage first. According to that App, "On the night Catelyn's betrothal to Brandon Stark was announced,[25] Petyr, after having danced with Catelyn, tried to kiss her, and she rejected him, laughing." That's when they had sex first time. Some time after that, in early 281, Hoster Tully was contemplating to engage Lysa to Jaime.

So far so good.

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ASOS, Jaime II - "Jaime, meantime, had spent four years as squire to Ser Sumner Crakehall and earned his spurs against the Kingswood Brotherhood. But when he made a brief call at King’s Landing on his way back to Casterly Rock, chiefly to see his sister, Cersei took him aside and whispered that Lord Tywin meant to marry him to Lysa Tully, had gone so far as to invite Lord Hoster to the city to discuss dower. But if Jaime took the white, he could be near her always."

Not sure why that section is bolded, there is nothing there to indicate further sex.

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Jaime joined Kingsguards at the Tournament at Harrenhal, in late 281. So negotiations about his possible marriage with Lysa were happening in early 281 (prior Jaime's confrontation with the Kingswood Brotherhood (which, in my opinion, happened on April 1 of 281, that's the day when were conceived Elia's Aegon and fAegon)), and it was happening already after Catelyn got officially betrothed to Brandon, and Lysa had sex with Petyr on the day their engagement was announced.

Yes, still nothing relevant here

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Catelyn was betrothed to Brandon, when she was 12 years old, in 276 or 277 <- this information is also from the App. Announcement happened several years after the negotiations about betrothal. Lysa is 2 years younger than Cat, and Petyr was born either same year as Lysa, or 1 or 2 years later. And I doubt that Lysa had sex with Petyr, when she was 10 years old and he was 8 or 9.

Agreed. The "announcement" (later) is not the 'betrothal" (276-7). The first sex didn't happen in 276/7 when Lysa was 9 or 10.  

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Thus, the betrothal was announced years after Hoster and Rickard agreed to marry their children. And the announcement was made no later than in early 281.

Agreed. By this time Lysa and Petyr are closer to 14ish. This is when Lysa rapes Petyr while he is passed out drunk.

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By the time when Hoster was contemplating Lysa's possible marriage with Jaime, Cat, as an older sister, was already set to marry/the betrothal was made official, and Lysa had already gave her virginity to Petyr.

Yes...

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Based on that Cat's chapter, in which she realised that Hoster made Lysa abort her pregnancy, it seems that at the time of the wedding with Jon Arryn, Lysa was still pregnant, and she was under impression that she was allowed to keep that baby, and that she will pose him as Jon Arryn's child, and that he will be growing up together with Cat's child.

No it doesn't. 
Jon Arryn's is not taking another man's bastard in as his own son to carry the legendary Arryn name. Lysa's delusional, but not that delusional. And certainly no one else is that delusional. 

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She and her sister had been married on the same day, and left in their father's care when their new husbands had ridden off to rejoin Robert's rebellion. Afterward, when their moon blood did not come at the accustomed time, Lysa had gushed happily of the sons she was certain they carried. "Your son will be heir to Winterfell and mine to the Eyrie. Oh, they'll be the best of friends, like your Ned and Lord Robert. They'll be more brothers than cousins, truly, I just know it." She was so happy.

Jon got Lysa pregnant before he left just as Ned did to Cat. Both sisters moon blood did not come. Lysa is not talking about Petyr's baby there, she's talking about Jon's.
Note that it was unexpected (sort of) that her moon blood didn't come and it not coming caused her excitement. She'd had the abortion more than a month (probably 4+ months) before and had probably had menses repeatedly since - there was an accustomed time.

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At the time of that wedding Lysa was already 4-5 months pregnant, so after the wedding, when Jon left Riverrun, Hoster gave tansy-potion to Lysa, because nobody would have believed that the baby is Jon's, if it was born so soon after the wedding. For Lysa to still be pregnant in early 283, when was held her wedding, she had to have sex with Petyr in late 282, approximately around that time when Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna, and Petyr fought in a duel with Brandon, before the kidnapping became known and Brandon went to KL. 

No, thats all just stuff you've made up.
Hoster almost certainly gave Lysa the potion before the wedding. Almost certainly back around/after Brandon's duel. One would expect Lysa to make a plea to her father then not to banish Petyr (I can't recall if there is textual proof to say she did and don't have time to look for it on the possibility its there, but its pretty obvious she would) and use her pregnancy as an argument to keep him.
Thats also the best explanation over why Hoster was so angry with Petyr then to send him away as soon as he could travel, even though he wasn't fully healed yet. A failed pursuit of Cat is not really much of a reason for Hoster to be so angry with Petyr. It did not real harm to anyone except Petyr.

So there is nothing in the app (or anywhere else) which indicates Lysa and Petyr had sex between the first announcement night when he thought she was Cat and their wedding night at the Eyrie.

7 hours ago, Megorova said:

I think that Littlefinger's personal sigil, which is a mocking bird, is a hint that Petyr in the past was one of Vary's little birds. If my assumption is correct, then it's an evidence, that not all little birds are tongueless/were made mute.

Assumptions don't make evidence.

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In TWOW, with Varys out of the Red Keep, we will get significantly more information about how and from whom does he get his intel.

@TheLastWolf

@corbon @Ser Leftwich

Also this, in ADWD's Epilogue:

"He might have said more, but the dark-haired novice with the round cheeks returned to say, “My lord, my lady, I am sorry to intrude, but there is a boy below. Grand Maester Pycelle begs the favor of the Lord Regent’s presence at once.

Dark wings, dark words, Ser Kevan thought. Could Storm’s End have fallen? Or might this be word from Bolton in the north?

“It might be news of Jaime,” the queen said.

There was only one way to know. Ser Kevan rose. “Pray excuse me.” Before he took his leave, he dropped to one knee and kissed his niece upon the hand. If her silent giant failed her, it might be the last kiss she would ever know.

The messenger was a boy of eight or nine, so bundled up in fur he seemed a bear cub. Trant had kept him waiting out on the drawbridge rather than admit him into Maegor’s. “Go find a fire, lad,” Ser Kevan told him, pressing a penny into his hand. “I know the way to the rookery well enough.” "

Yes. This is all entirely normal.

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If that boy is mute, then how did he conveyed to that dark-haired novice-girl, that he was sent there by Pycelle, and that Pycelle asked Kevan to come to him ASAP (as soon as possible)?

There are two options. 
1. The boy is not a little bird. He is just a regular messenger doing a regular job. Except that he's been given a fake message. Which wouldn't be difficult - messenger boys often wouldn't know the contents of their message more than "boy, take this to X".
2. He is a little bird. In which case, per Varys's discussion with Illyrio, e's mute and carrying a written message.

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- Pycelle didn't wrote any messages with request to Kevan to come to him. Because Pycelle was dead.

- If there was a written message, then did whoever actually wrote it, faked Pycelle's handwriting? And whoever took that message from that boy, didn't recognized that the message wasn't written by Pycelle?

Well yes. Its not that hard. Nor is it even that necessary. Who knows if the novice, or anyone else, bothered with handwriting. Woudl Pycelle even necessarily always write his own messages anyway? Or have a scribe write them?
At most, all thats necessary to 'fake' is a signature, if there even was one.

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- Trant kept the boy outside, it was night and dark there, thus not enough light to read a written message, if the boy is supposedly mute and brought a written message from Pycelle, that he gave to ... to whom would he have given that written message, and if there was a written message, then why the novice-girl didn't brought that message to Kevan?

The message is read inside. 
Why would the message itself be shown? There's no need. The novice delivered it quicker and more efficiently.

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- Just imagine how did that scene happened - some strange mute boy comes to the gates of Maegor's Holdfast,

He's not strange or 'mute', just bundled up and silent. Whats to say. He's a messenger carrying a message, all he needs to do is present the message possibly with whatever token is a customary sign. Which Varys no doubt has plenty of access to. 

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where he is met by Merin Trant. Then what??? They are outside, where it's a winter night, dark and snowing. Then the boy gives a piece of parchment to Trant. And Trant has a night vision ability, and he reads the message. Or he goes back into the keep to reed the message, while the boy is left to stand outside.

Yes, of course. Whats the problem here. Trants an ass and always has been. Kevan's not.

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By laws of logic and logical writting, if there was a note, then that note should have been folded, and on the outer side of it should have been written from whom is it and to whom was it sent,

Its common to use seals or signs or tokens as a stand-in for such detail.

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like - From Pycelle to Kevan. In this case afterwards Trant would have called someone to deliver that note to Kevan.

Or to deliver the message. Its pretty simple, why not just say it? quicker and easier.

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Though the novice-girl, that informed Kevan about that messenger-boy, didn't brought to him any notes, she came to him with a voice message. Where's the note? Did Trant kept it to himself? Why would he? Did the girl took that note, opened it and read it, and then verbally delived the content of the message to Kevan?

Yes. Why not? Thats her job, for such basic messages 
The note is probably in a trash bin somewhere or in a place where the material can be prepared for re-use.

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Did Trant opened that note and read it himself, and only then fetched that girl to deliver a verbal message to Kevan, but kept the note for himself, what for? If on the note it was written that it's from Pycelle to Kevan, then why would have Trant or that girl opened it and read it and didn't instead brought it to Kevan? That doesn't make any sense.

The only thing that makes no sense here is your objections.

Its not a formal missive, not a court document, not anything complex. Its a simple. polite, request to come from a junior to a senior (Lord Regent) indicating some important thing needs to be discussed urgently. "Beg...(the favour of) your presence...at once".

There is nothing important or relevant here. No need for records to be kept or stored of this sort of small thing - the important stuff will happen in the meeting, perhaps.

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Even if the note wasn't signed on the outside, and whoever took it from that boy (whether it was Trant or a novice-girl), had to open that note and to read it, to know what is it about and to whom was it sent, it's not a reason not to bring the note itself to whomever it was adressed

Why do you need a reason to bring it too him? Its trivial, and no doubt available if he demands to see it.

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- to Kevan. No one brought any notes or written messages to Kevan, because there wasn't any of those.

Thats not a logical or even reasonable supposition

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And if the message, that was supposedly from Pycelle to fetch Kevan, wasn't written, then how else was this information conveyed from that boy to whoever met him at the keep's gates?

the normal way of conveying such a message.

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- There was no written message,

thats not even indicated,let alone proven. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

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Thus, the only way how information could have been delivered from that boy to Trant and to that novice-girl, is VERBALLY. Which means that the boy wasn't mute.

Sure, thats a possibility.

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And because he is definitely one of Varys' little birds,

Err, hows that then?
Why isn't he just a normal messenger doing a normal job?

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- If all of Varys' little birds are mute, if that's a "trend", then shouldn't have people at the Red Keep know about this?

No. The real 'little birds' are within the walls. They don't normal interact with people almost at all.

They aren't Vary's only informants of course. But they are mysterious, an unknown, which provides a kind of cover for all his more usual informants as well.

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Shouldn't Cersei and Kevan and Trant and other guards and servants know about it?

No. They don't know anything more than 'little birds that sing' is a euphemism for all sorts of informants that the long serving Master of Whisperers uses. 

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Lannisters know that it was Varys who helped Tyrion to escape and to kill Tywin.

They do? I must have missed something huge. Several somethings.
How does Varys still have his head if the Lannister's kknow he was involved in the death of Tywin and the escape of Tyrion?

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So, if a mute boy came to Maegor's Holdfast to deliver a message, shouldn't have Trant and other guards seized him the moment it became evident that he is mute/Varys' little bird?

No. Thats just the end of a series of logical fallacies.

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I provided an array of logical bullets as support of my theory.

Well, bullets at least. Sprayed all over the place. ;)

 

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13 hours ago, TheLastWolf said:

The list I put forth to clarify, @Megorova's list and all, considered Varys's informers to be subsets, as you put it. Maybe the adult informers were littlebirds who didn't lose their tongues for great spying. Or as Meg said, the birds never lose their tongues...in most cases at least.

I sort of stumbled into the little birds discussion by accident.

I think there may be general agreement that looks like vast differences due to minor semantics.

Here's what I think about 'little birds'. I think @Ser Leftwich agrees with me, and I think @Megorova and you are not that far away at all.

1. Varys employs a vast network of spies and informers both within and without the Red Keep.
2. "Birds Singing", or variants thereof, is a general euphemism for secrets being shared - informants included.
3. Varys' "Little Birds" are a specific and unique subset of his informers. They are small children, supplied by Illyrio, muted due to the risks (both of them spilling secrets, and even being found within the walls), who live and work largely within the walls (literally within the walls themselves, not in the rooms) of the Red Keep. They rarely interact with any others except Varys. It is unknown what happens to them when they grow up, though there are several possibilities.
4. Varys' other informers and employees are not actually 'little birds'.
5. Varys, and others, often publicly employ a variant of the singing birds general euphemism, to describe his general network...

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"The whisperings of little birds," Varys said, smiling. "I know things, sweet lady. That is the nature of my service."

for example. This is both the truth and a lie together. It gives a general aura of mystery and cover to all his informants. But most are not actually his "little birds" which are muted.

Thus, for example, the messenger boy could be one of Varys's regular informants, a servant in the castle, maybe a messenger servant, maybe a different servant, and not be one of Varys mute "little birds". 
Or he could be a normal messenger that is not even in Varys' employ.
Or he could be a mute "little bird" temporarily 'out in the open'.

I think we are actually not very far apart on this.

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6 hours ago, corbon said:

They do? I must have missed something huge. Several somethings.
How does Varys still have his head if the Lannister's kknow he was involved in the death of Tywin and the escape of Tyrion?

OFF TOPIC, But still.....Of course they do. Varys still has his head as he escaped into the tunels of the Red Keep and is presumed to have escaped/missing. Tywin guessed it was the Spider's work when he saw Tyrion. Surely the Other Lannisters know. Jaime knows, since he too had a hand (Pun intended). Cersei is wroth with the Eunuch IIRC

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17 hours ago, corbon said:
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Lord Tywin meant to marry him to Lysa Tully, had gone so far as to invite Lord Hoster to the city to discuss dower. But if Jaime took the white, he could be near her always."

Not sure why that section is bolded, there is nothing there to indicate further sex.

That negotiation was happening between two events:

1. Lysa had sex with Petyr, on the night when Cat's betrothal was announced.

this is it -> 2. After Cat got officially engaged, it was Lysa's turn to make a suitable match, and Hoster approached Tywin with his offer, or Tywin approached him.

3. Tournament at Harrenhal, at which Jaime became a Kingsguard and a possibility of engagement with Lysa went out the window. Late 281. And Lysa first time had sex with Petyr prior event 3. Thus engagement night happened prior late 281. And Lysa was pregnant in early 283, which means that she had sex and got pregnant NOT on Cat's engagement night. Which means that Lysa had sex with Petyr at least one more time after that first time.

17 hours ago, corbon said:

Yes, still nothing relevant here

With that info (about negotiations between Tywin and Hoster, and what Jaime and Cersei were doing at that time) we can establish that first time L+LF happened no later than late 281, no later than Tournament at Harrenhal during which Jaime joined Kingsguards.

17 hours ago, corbon said:

No it doesn't. 
Jon Arryn's is not taking another man's bastard in as his own son to carry the legendary Arryn name. Lysa's delusional, but not that delusional. And certainly no one else is that delusional. 

I'm not saying that Jon or Hoster actually allowed Lysa to keep the baby, or said to her something like that. I meant that she herself made that assumption, because nothing was done to her baby, while Hoster and Jon were negotiating the marriage, and at the time of the wedding. So, she thought that this will go as it is, and that her pregnancy will continue, and when she will give birth to Petyr's child, Jon Arryn will keep doing nothing, same as before and after the wedding.

She told her father that she's pregnant, and he did nothing. Furthermore, later he negotiated her marriage with Jon Arryn, and still did nothing. While they were getting married, she was still pregnant and no one did anything about that. And then Jon left to fight in a war, and Lysa still had her baby intact. Thus, she thought that this will continue as it was. Based on everything that happened until after Jon's departure, Lysa thought that nothing will be done to her baby, same as nothing was done about her pregnancy until then.

17 hours ago, corbon said:

Jon got Lysa pregnant before he left just as Ned did to Cat. Both sisters moon blood did not come. Lysa is not talking about Petyr's baby there, she's talking about Jon's.
Note that it was unexpected (sort of) that her moon blood didn't come and it not coming caused her excitement. She'd had the abortion more than a month (probably 4+ months) before and had probably had menses repeatedly since - there was an accustomed time.

No, that's not what happened. At least, I don't think so. I think that Cat realised that she's pregnant, when her moon blood did not come, and she shared this news with Lysa, and Lysa, who at that time was already 4-6 months pregnant, said to Cat that her moon blood also didn't came, so she also is with the baby.

I think that Lysa's pregnancy was aborted, when she was already past her first threemester, when she was 4-6 months pregnant, that's why there was so much blood, and why she nearly died as result of that, and why Cat had no idea that Lysa was at that time (after abortinon) was in a very bad state. Note that Cat didn't knew that Lysa was ill. Apparently, when Hoster heard what Lysa was saying to Cat, that their children will be growing up together, and that her baby will be an heir to the Eyrie, he decided that it's time to stop this, and gave her tansy-potion. Based on what Lysa told to Sansa, she at that time had no idea whatever her father gave her, that this thing will cause her to loose her baby. So after she drunk that potion, shortly after that, she began bleeding, not much at first. At that point in time Cat was with Lysa, and 

"But Lysa’s blood had come not long after, and all the joy had gone out of her. Catelyn had always thought that Lysa had simply been a little late, but if she had been with child…

She remembered the first time she gave her sister Robb to hold; small, red-faced, and squalling, but strong even then, full of life. No sooner had Catelyn placed the babe in her sister’s arms than Lysa’s face dissolved into tears. Hurriedly she had thrust the baby back at Catelyn and fled.

If she had lost a child before, that might explain Father’s words, and much else besides…"

It seems that Cat was unaware that Lysa was ill (as result of severe bloodloss). Apparently, when Lysa's bleeding intencified, and Lysa called a maester and her father, at that time Cat wasn't there, and afterwards, when Lysa was recovering, Hoster somehow kept them separated. Could be that Cat herself wasn't feeling well because of her pregnancy, like she had toxicosis, severe mornign sickness, diziness, her legs got swallen, etc., so she herself wasn't feeling good and thus was mostly staying in her own chambers, and haven't seen Lysa for a long time, and didn't paid much attention to it, because she was ill and Hoster was making excuses to keep Cat in her room. And Cat was more warryid about herself and her child, thus didn't noticed much that she had haven't seen her sister for several weeks.

Doesn't that make sense?

Lysa nearly died after that abortion, but Cat didn't knew that her sister was ill. The only logical explanation for that, is if at the time after Lysa's abortion, for some time they were kept separated.

17 hours ago, corbon said:

No, thats all just stuff you've made up.
Hoster almost certainly gave Lysa the potion before the wedding. Almost certainly back around/after Brandon's duel. One would expect Lysa to make a plea to her father then not to banish Petyr (I can't recall if there is textual proof to say she did and don't have time to look for it on the possibility its there, but its pretty obvious she would) and use her pregnancy as an argument to keep him.

No, it was written there that Lysa revealed her pregnancy to Hoster, already after Petyr left Riverrun. After the duel with Brandon, Petyr was staying in Riverrun for two more weeks. And Brandon left after the duel, and went to meet Lyanna and Rickard's wedding party. Lysa got pregnant in one of those 14 days that after the duel. After Petyr's departure some time passed, and when Lysa's moon blood didn't came, she realised that she's pregnant, and then told about it to her father, hoping that he will let her marry with Petyr. Which means that Lysa told about her pregnancy already after Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna, 1-2 months after the duel. Or maybe Lysa didn't told her father until she was several months pregnant. Maybe she told only after Brandon was executed and Hoster was arranging Cat's betrothal with Ned. That would have been a good time for Lysa to ask Hoster to allow her to marry with Petyr, because she is pregnant and will have his baby.

17 hours ago, corbon said:

Thats also the best explanation over why Hoster was so angry with Petyr then to send him away as soon as he could travel, even though he wasn't fully healed yet. A failed pursuit of Cat is not really much of a reason for Hoster to be so angry with Petyr. It did not real harm to anyone except Petyr.

Petyr got evicted from Riverrun before Hoster found out about him having sex with Lysa. That was pretty clear in the books.

"Petyr was given a fortnight to recover at Riverrun, during which time Lysa helped care for him. Catelyn did not go to see him, and Petyr refused to see Edmure, who had served as Brandon's squire during the duel.[28][29]During this fortnight, Petyr slept with Lysa again.[12] He would later claim to have taken the maidenhood of both Tully sisters, due to his belief that his first encounter with Lysa had actually been with Catelyn.[9][25][30]

When the fortnight had passed and Petyr was strong enough, Lord Hoster sent Petyr away from Riverrun. Catelyn did not say goodbye to him.[28] However, Lysa had become pregnant with Petyr's child as a result of their second sexual encounter. After Petyr had been sent away, Lysa revealed her pregnancy to her father, hoping he would relent and allow Lysa and Petyr to marry. Instead, Hoster, who had believed Petyr to be too lowborn,[7] forced Lysa to drink moon tea to abort the pregnancy.[31]"

[12] is from the App,

[28] is AGOT, Cat VII ->

"A fortnight passed before Littlefinger was strong enough to leave Riverrun, but her lord father forbade her to visit him in the tower where he lay abed. Lysa helped their maester nurse him; she had been softer and shyer in those days. Edmure had called on him as well, but Petyr had sent him away. Her brother had acted as Brandon’s squire at the duel, and Littlefinger would not forgive that. As soon as he was strong enough to be moved, Lord Hoster Tully sent Petyr Baelish away in a closed litter, to finish his healing on the Fingers, upon the windswept jut of rock where he’d been born."

If Hoster knew that Petyr had sex with Lysa, that first time, then he wouldn't have allowed her to nurse him after the duel. Isn't it logical?

Lysa got pregnant only after the second time, and this second time happened while Petyr was recovering after the duel. He was in a bad state. Thus, Lysa had sex with him closer to his departure day. Add to that at least a month for her moon blood not coming, for her to known that she got pregnant, and thus it's obvious that Hoster found out about L+LF only when Petyr was already away from Riverrun. Thus the reason for his eviction was his duel with Brandon.

17 hours ago, corbon said:

So there is nothing in the app (or anywhere else) which indicates Lysa and Petyr had sex between the first announcement night when he thought she was Cat and their wedding night at the Eyrie.

It's in that [9][25][30] <-

[30] "Lying comes as easily as breathing to a man like Littlefinger. You ought to know that, you of all people.”

She took a step toward him, her face tight. “And what does that mean, Lannister?”

Tyrion cocked his head. “Why, every man at court has heard him tell how he took your maidenhead, my lady.”

“That is a lie,” Catelyn Stark said."

[9] "You realize that I may need to bed Lysa Arryn again to get her consent to this marriage?”

“I have little doubt you’ll be equal to the task.”

“I once told Ned Stark that when you find yourself naked with an ugly woman, the only thing to do is close your eyes and get on with it.”"

Littlefinger thought that that first time (on engagement night) was with Catelyn, it's mentioned in [30] above; and in [9] LF said that he will need to bed Lysa AGAIN, which means that he had already had sex with her before, that time after the duel, and even though he thinks that that first time was with Cat, that time it was also with Lysa. They had sex twice, and she got pregnant after the second time, after the duel, and told to her father about the pregnancy after Petyr was already back at the Fingers.

17 hours ago, corbon said:

They do? I must have missed something huge. Several somethings.
How does Varys still have his head if the Lannister's kknow he was involved in the death of Tywin and the escape of Tyrion?

ARE YOU FOR REAL???????????????

Do a re-read, NOW!

Because you did missed something huge.

I'll give you a clue - 1. Jaime, 2. Cersei's order to remove wooden panneling from the walls in Red Keep, 3. search party she sent into the tunnels, for Varys' little birds.

Varys is in hiding. Officially he is not in the Red Keep. He escaped from there after Tyrion killed Tywin.

Varys was accused by Lannisters in a high treason and conspiracy with Tyrion the Kingslayer and kinslayer.

Read this

https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Varys#A_Feast_for_Crows

"After Varys's part in Tyrion's escape and Tywin's murder, he vanishes without a trace. A dungeon turnkey named Rugen disappears as well.[36] In Rugen's living space a Gardener coin is discovered and shown to Cersei, increasing her mistrust of House Tyrell.[37] Rugen is one of Varys's disguises.[38]

Cersei, now ruling in King's Landing as Queen Regent to her son, King Tommen I Baratheon, appoints Qyburn to fill the position of master of whisperers. Qyburn notes that many of Varys's spies came to him with secrets to sell, reinforcing Cersei's belief that Varys had always oversold his value.[39] Ser Jaime Lannister begins to suspect that Varys might have had a hand in the disappearance of Tyrek Lannister, once one of King Robert's squires, during the riot of King’s Landing.[40]"

And Cersei blames Jaime in helping Tyrion to escape, and Jaime told her that Varys also was helping Tyrion, thus she blames Varys too in Tywin's murder. She would have gladly executed him, but he's not a moron and he escaped. Or at least that's what he made them think, while actually he is still in the Red Keep, hiding.

P.S. And his spies, mentioned in [39] above, those that came to sell Varys' secrets - they are still working for Varys, they are faking that they are giving away Varys' secrets, all that information, that they revealed, is not important, it's a decoy, they were ordered by Varys to feed Lannisters with all that bullshit.

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15 hours ago, TheLastWolf said:

OFF TOPIC, But still.....Of course they do. Varys still has his head as he escaped into the tunels of the Red Keep and is presumed to have escaped/missing. Tywin guessed it was the Spider's work when he saw Tyrion. Surely the Other Lannisters know. Jaime knows, since he too had a hand (Pun intended). Cersei is wroth with the Eunuch IIRC

Heh, yeah, see the bottom. I think thats the biggest blunder I've ever made when discussing the books. Pretty busy day yesterday, was a bit distracted trying to get my answers off in between things I'm actually paid to do - at least thats my weak excuse.  :dunce::blush::D

5 hours ago, Megorova said:

That negotiation was happening between two events:

1. Lysa had sex with Petyr, on the night when Cat's betrothal was announced.

this is it -> 2. After Cat got officially engaged, it was Lysa's turn to make a suitable match, and Hoster approached Tywin with his offer, or Tywin approached him.

3. Tournament at Harrenhal, at which Jaime became a Kingsguard and a possibility of engagement with Lysa went out the window. Late 281. And Lysa first time had sex with Petyr prior event 3. Thus engagement night happened prior late 281. And Lysa was pregnant in early 283, which means that she had sex and got pregnant NOT on Cat's engagement night. Which means that Lysa had sex with Petyr at least one more time after that first time.

With that info (about negotiations between Tywin and Hoster, and what Jaime and Cersei were doing at that time) we can establish that first time L+LF happened no later than late 281, no later than Tournament at Harrenhal during which Jaime joined Kingsguards.

Yep. But then, we already pretty much knew that (not that precisely), just by the expected ages of the kids. Like you said, Lysa wasn't likely to be raping Petyr when she was 10. They are clearly significantly older that the kissing game, early teens at least.

5 hours ago, Megorova said:

I'm not saying that Jon or Hoster actually allowed Lysa to keep the baby, or said to her something like that. I meant that she herself made that assumption, because nothing was done to her baby,

Something was done to her baby. It was aborted. The only question is the timing.

5 hours ago, Megorova said:

while Hoster and Jon were negotiating the marriage, and at the time of the wedding.

You've just decided to assume that timing, which makes no sense at all.

5 hours ago, Megorova said:

She told her father that she's pregnant, and he did nothing.

Thats laughably silly. She's pregnant, its not Jon's and its obviously not Jon's and Hoster's going to do nothing? But later he will?

Hoster's clearly trying to do what he thinks is best for her, whether it is or not, and aside from it being unexpectedly botched. He does that as her father, when he has rights and responsibilities over his minor child.

Once she marries Jon, she's no longer Hoster's responsibility. He no longer has the rights over her as a minor in his care, nor the responsibilities. 
Him giving her an abortifacient would be a much much worse thing to do in that situation. A crime against Jon Arryn in fact, whether the babe was Petyrs or not.
Its pretty clear from old Hoster's words that he's sorry about the way things turned out for Lysa, but not sorry about his reasons or what it did to anyone else.

5 hours ago, Megorova said:

Furthermore, later he negotiated her marriage with Jon Arryn, and still did nothing.

Thats even sillier. He's giving her to Jon with Petyr's bun in the oven? Thats not reasonable on any end.
Giving her to Jon when he's removed the bun, now thats reasonable. She's proven fertile which is a bonus, and the 'soiling' has been cleansed. Jon gets the assurance that although his wife is not a maiden, his children will be his (thats the purpose of a patriarchal marriage system, flawed as it may be - women always know their kids are theirs, men need a way to get as close to proof as possible that their kids really are theirs).

5 hours ago, Megorova said:

While they were getting married, she was still pregnant and no one did anything about that. And then Jon left to fight in a war, and Lysa still had her baby intact. Thus, she thought that this will continue as it was. Based on everything that happened until after Jon's departure, Lysa thought that nothing will be done to her baby, same as nothing was done about her pregnancy until then.

Thats insane from start to finish.

5 hours ago, Megorova said:

No, that's not what happened. At least, I don't think so.

All thats happened here is that you've made a mistake not nearly as bad as my forgetting Varys' disappearance, and extrapolated from that into a theory that makes no sense at all.

5 hours ago, Megorova said:

I think that Cat realised that she's pregnant, when her moon blood did not come, and she shared this news with Lysa, and Lysa, who at that time was already 4-6 months pregnant, said to Cat that her moon blood also didn't came, so she also is with the baby.

Its infinitely more sensible that she had the abortion much earlier, her menses had re-established over several months, she was delighted to get pregnant to Jon and thats all. Then she lost that baby for the same reason(s) she lost nearly all of Jon's kids.

5 hours ago, Megorova said:

I think that Lysa's pregnancy was aborted, when she was already past her first threemester, when she was 4-6 months pregnant, that's why there was so much blood, and why she nearly died as result of that,

Thats arbitrary on your part. 

5 hours ago, Megorova said:

and why Cat had no idea that Lysa was at that time (after abortinon) was in a very bad state. Note that Cat didn't knew that Lysa was ill.

Indeed. Which is a disaster for you timing and suits mine much better.
With my timing, Cat is apart from Lysa nearly all the time, and has her own things going on. She has a wedding to plan - first to Brandon, then to Ned, and preparations need to be made. Lysa meanwhile is mooning about Petyr. Its easy for Cat not to observe whats happening around Lysa for a few days or a week or two.

With your timing the two young women and both freshly married, both 'freshly' pregnant, both excited together and have nothing much else to do but hang out together, with the menfolk off at war. Yet Cat doesn't even notice how messy Lysa losing her baby is?

5 hours ago, Megorova said:

Apparently, when Hoster heard what Lysa was saying to Cat, that their children will be growing up together, and that her baby will be an heir to the Eyrie, he decided that it's time to stop this, and gave her tansy-potion.

Serously? Seriously? Thats triggered him but everything was all right before that? 
There's no evidence he even heard that conversation. 

5 hours ago, Megorova said:

Based on what Lysa told to Sansa, she at that time had no idea whatever her father gave her, that this thing will cause her to loose her baby. So after she drunk that potion, shortly after that, she began bleeding, not much at first. At that point in time Cat was with Lysa, and 

"But Lysa’s blood had come not long after, and all the joy had gone out of her. Catelyn had always thought that Lysa had simply been a little late, but if she had been with child…

Your own story makes no sense. Cat and Lysa are together here, excited together, yet now is the time Lysa is very ill but Cat never notices, and now her menses comes just a little late, immediately after a messed up abortion.

5 hours ago, Megorova said:

She remembered the first time she gave her sister Robb to hold; small, red-faced, and squalling, but strong even then, full of life. No sooner had Catelyn placed the babe in her sister’s arms than Lysa’s face dissolved into tears. Hurriedly she had thrust the baby back at Catelyn and fled.

If she had lost a child before, that might explain Father’s words, and much else besides…"

It seems that Cat was unaware that Lysa was ill (as result of severe bloodloss). Apparently, when Lysa's bleeding intencified, and Lysa called a maester and her father, at that time Cat wasn't there,

Or not around Lysa - which fits my timing, but not yours.

5 hours ago, Megorova said:

and afterwards, when Lysa was recovering, Hoster somehow kept them separated.

Fits my timing, not yours.

5 hours ago, Megorova said:

Could be that Cat herself wasn't feeling well because of her pregnancy, like she had toxicosis, severe mornign sickness, diziness, her legs got swallen, etc., so she herself wasn't feeling good and thus was mostly staying in her own chambers, and haven't seen Lysa for a long time, and didn't paid much attention to it, because she was ill and Hoster was making excuses to keep Cat in her room. And Cat was more warryid about herself and her child, thus didn't noticed much that she had haven't seen her sister for several weeks.

Making shit up isn't acceptable. Stick with the data we have and work from that. Both girls were together in the same situation in your timing. To separate them we need a reason given, not a reason made up. If Cat could have morning sickness, so could Lysa.

With my timing we have a reason referenced (Cats impending nuptials) and the stuff going on around her as a consequence of that, vs Lysa not involved and mooning over Petyr.
With your timing both girls are together with reasons to be spending more time together than usual rather than less.

5 hours ago, Megorova said:

Lysa nearly died after that abortion, but Cat didn't knew that her sister was ill. The only logical explanation for that, is if at the time after Lysa's abortion, for some time they were kept separated.

Agreed, more or less. My timeline does that, yours doesn't.

5 hours ago, Megorova said:

No, it was written there that Lysa revealed her pregnancy to Hoster, already after Petyr left Riverrun.

Written where?

5 hours ago, Megorova said:

After the duel with Brandon, Petyr was staying in Riverrun for two more weeks. And Brandon left after the duel, and went to meet Lyanna and Rickard's wedding party. Lysa got pregnant in one of those 14 days that after the duel.

Still no evidence they had sex again during that time - Petyr had a dozen wounds before the big one that ended the fight. He left before he was healed fully. 

5 hours ago, Megorova said:

After Petyr's departure some time passed, and when Lysa's moon blood didn't came, she realised that she's pregnant, and then told about it to her father, hoping that he will let her marry with Petyr.

Thats a reasonable point. She needs to be pregnant for the Tansy potion and you don't usually know that in the first couple of weeks. So the 'nursing Petyr' time for the Tansy could only work on a very slim margin. But it's still 4+ months between the duel and the wedding to Jon, so there is plenty of time. 
I don't see any reason why Lysa would delay using her pregnancy as an excuse to get back with Petyr once she found out.  
And I don;t see any reason for Hoster to delay (and many not too) 'fixing' it once he found out from her.

5 hours ago, Megorova said:

Which means that Lysa told about her pregnancy already after Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna, 1-2 months after the duel. Or maybe Lysa didn't told her father until she was several months pregnant. Maybe she told only after Brandon was executed and Hoster was arranging Cat's betrothal with Ned. That would have been a good time for Lysa to ask Hoster to allow her to marry with Petyr, because she is pregnant and will have his baby.

Agreed,. Fits my timeline, doesn't fit yours.

5 hours ago, Megorova said:

Petyr got evicted from Riverrun before Hoster found out about him having sex with Lysa. That was pretty clear in the books.

Fair enough.

5 hours ago, Megorova said:

"Petyr was given a fortnight to recover at Riverrun, during which time Lysa helped care for him. Catelyn did not go to see him, and Petyr refused to see Edmure, who had served as Brandon's squire during the duel.[28][29]During this fortnight, Petyr slept with Lysa again.[12] He would later claim to have taken the maidenhood of both Tully sisters, due to his belief that his first encounter with Lysa had actually been with Catelyn.[9][25][30]

This doesn't show he slept with Lysa again. It just shows he's an ass. Lysa no doubt told him she gave him hers, he thought he took Cat's.

It does show that Lysa really did rape Petyr the first time, that he didn't "wake enough to realise it was Lysa, then only call her Cat in the deepest throes of passion" as some have inferred might be possible.
 

5 hours ago, Megorova said:

When the fortnight had passed and Petyr was strong enough, Lord Hoster sent Petyr away from Riverrun. Catelyn did not say goodbye to him.[28] However, Lysa had become pregnant with Petyr's child as a result of their second sexual encounter. After Petyr had been sent away, Lysa revealed her pregnancy to her father, hoping he would relent and allow Lysa and Petyr to marry. Instead, Hoster, who had believed Petyr to be too lowborn,[7] forced Lysa to drink moon tea to abort the pregnancy.[31]"

thats a wiki quote, made up by some fan from a possibly incorrect inference. Probably, on available evidence.

5 hours ago, Megorova said:

[12] is from the App,

Ok, I went and paid for the app. I'm not going to bother rewriting most of the above.

The same reference explicitly says that Lysa bedded Petyr again during his recovery. 
I think its the same flawed logic you just used. The app is supposed to be accurate from what is in the other books (and therefore sometimes inaccurate), but can make the same mistakes as readers do. GRRM didn't vet it in great detail.
There is very very little 'new' information in the app is my understanding. The only thing I can remember being 'new' (I'm sure there is more than that, is just to illustrate how spares 'new' info in it is) is the bit about Aerys sending Hightower to find Rhaegar I think - which can be reasonably inferred from Hightower's presence at ToJ with Rhaegar's other companions plus Rhaegar's return to take command out of nowhere, but isn't actually referenced anywhere IIRC. Just like this.
But fine, lets agree that Lysa bedded the badly wounded Petyr again before he was sent away no matter how silly and unnecessary it is.

Just as interesting, the same reference in the app (it's the Petyr Baelish page) also says that after Littlefinger is sent away Lysa revealed her pregnancy to Hoster in hopes he'd relent but instead he forces her to drink the moon tea etc etc.
Lysa never forgives her father for that  "or the fact that it will eventually lead to her marriage to the much older Jon Arryn".

In other words, the abortion happened well before the marriage.

5 hours ago, Megorova said:

[28] is AGOT, Cat VII ->

"A fortnight passed before Littlefinger was strong enough to leave Riverrun, but her lord father forbade her to visit him in the tower where he lay abed. Lysa helped their maester nurse him; she had been softer and shyer in those days. Edmure had called on him as well, but Petyr had sent him away. Her brother had acted as Brandon’s squire at the duel, and Littlefinger would not forgive that. As soon as he was strong enough to be moved, Lord Hoster Tully sent Petyr Baelish away in a closed litter, to finish his healing on the Fingers, upon the windswept jut of rock where he’d been born."

I'd been looking for that, thanks. As soon as Petyr was strong enough to move, he was sent away. In a litter.
So he's been wounded many times, including a near mortal one to the gut, and yet Lysa's fucking him (the Maester doesn't know?) and gets herself pregnant? Even by the time he leaves, healing unfinished, he has to be carried in a litter.

5 hours ago, Megorova said:

If Hoster knew that Petyr had sex with Lysa, that first time, then he wouldn't have allowed her to nurse him after the duel. Isn't it logical?

Yes. I've adjusted my understanding and timing to accommodate some sensible and accurate and well referenced points you've made. You should do the same. :)

5 hours ago, Megorova said:

Lysa got pregnant only after the second time, and this second time happened while Petyr was recovering after the duel. He was in a bad state. Thus, Lysa had sex with him closer to his departure day. Add to that at least a month for her moon blood not coming, for her to known that she got pregnant, and thus it's obvious that Hoster found out about L+LF only when Petyr was already away from Riverrun. Thus the reason for his eviction was his duel with Brandon.

Yep. Except the second time is unnecessary, not in the text, and silly. But lets abandon (concede, vis-a-vis the app) that point, its not really all that relevant. 

5 hours ago, Megorova said:

It's in that [9][25][30] <-

[30] "Lying comes as easily as breathing to a man like Littlefinger. You ought to know that, you of all people.

She took a step toward him, her face tight. “And what does that mean, Lannister?”

Tyrion cocked his head. “Why, every man at court has heard him tell how he took your maidenhead, my lady.”

“That is a lie,” Catelyn Stark said."

[9] "You realize that I may need to bed Lysa Arryn again to get her consent to this marriage?”

“I have little doubt you’ll be equal to the task.”

“I once told Ned Stark that when you find yourself naked with an ugly woman, the only thing to do is close your eyes and get on with it.”"

Littlefinger thought that that first time (on engagement night) was with Catelyn, it's mentioned in [30] above; and in [9] LF said that he will need to bed Lysa AGAIN, which means that he had already had sex with her before, that time after the duel, and even though he thinks that that first time was with Cat, that time it was also with Lysa. They had sex twice, and she got pregnant after the second time, after the duel, and told to her father about the pregnancy after Petyr was already back at the Fingers.

He knows, later, it was with Lysa. She no doubt told him, and about the baby she lost. Just because he's asshole enough to claim, when Cat's not around and unlikely to ever be around in KL, that he took her maidenhead, doesn't mean he really believes it any more.
His claim does not show twice sex with Lysa. 
Note the underlined...
He once thought Cat's gave him her maidenhead. Then he found out it was Lysa. Now he lies about 'taking' both. Because he's an asshole that lies a lot.

5 hours ago, Megorova said:

ARE YOU FOR REAL???????????????

Hahaha. Yep. I clean forgot :). My most recent reread has been ADWD but broken up into tiny bits and pieces as an audio book in the car.
I don't claim to be perfect.

I was thinking of Varys being there at the end of ADwD. And racing with a bunch of other things needed doing. Sorry. Thanks for the long explanation (I do appreciate and respect the way you write out your explanations - more than I have the energy to do - even when I think the thinking behind some parts is crazy), it wasn't really needed, sorry for wasting your time on that.  :blush:

 

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16 hours ago, corbon said:
Quote

Furthermore, later he negotiated her marriage with Jon Arryn, and still did nothing.

Thats even sillier. He's giving her to Jon with Petyr's bun in the oven? Thats not reasonable on any end.

It is reasonable, if you think about it like this - Lysa and Cat didn't went to The Eyrie and Winterfell while the Rebellion was still ongoing. If Lysa's pregnancy would have continued, she would have given birth to her child, while she still lived at Riverrun, same as Cat. Then Lysa would have went to The Vale to live with her husband, while her child would have remained at Riverrun, and would have been raised amongst servants, not as a child of their ex-Lady, but as some common bastard, born from uncknown parents, and fostered by kind Lord Hoster. Though, after hearing what Lysa was saying to Cat about the future of her baby, that she will take him/her to the Eyrie, where he/she will become the Lord/Lady of The Vale, Hoster finally got it how delusional Lysa was, that Lysa didn't even contemplated/comprehended that her child won't go with her to The Vale, that she won't be able to keep that child with her, to raise it as her own, when she will depart from Riverrun. And thus, he had to get rid of that baby. Because Lysa couldn't be reasoned about this.

There were other cases in ASOIAF's universe, when bastard-babies were separated from their highborn mothers, and raised away from them in secret. Duncan the Tall - bastard of Daenerys Targaryen and Daemon I Blackfyre. The Bastard of Harrenhal / Manfryd of the Black Hood / Manfryd Lothston - son of Jeyne Lothston and Aegon IV.

Manfryd was taken from Jeyne, and presented to people as a bastard of Lucas Lothston, Jeyne's fake father. Jeyne had to pretend that Manfryd is not her child. Furthermore, when Jeyne eventually got married and went away from Harrenhal, her child remained there and they were separated for good.

Something like that Hoster and Jon arranged for Lysa's child. She was allowed for her pregnancy to continue, though they never intended to let her keep the baby after its birth, and Jon didn't agreed to take it to The Vale and pose it as his own child.

Doesn't this make sense?

16 hours ago, corbon said:

I'd been looking for that, thanks. As soon as Petyr was strong enough to move, he was sent away. In a litter.
So he's been wounded many times, including a near mortal one to the gut, and yet Lysa's fucking him (the Maester doesn't know?) and gets herself pregnant? Even by the time he leaves, healing unfinished, he has to be carried in a litter.

It was specifically written there - not strong enough to move, but "strong enough to leave Riverrun". That "strong enough to leave Riverrun" includes much more than just being able to move, it includes being able to go on a journey that will last several months, from Riverrun of Riverlands to the Fingers of The Vale <- which included journey thru the mountains.

All of Petyr's wounds, except the last one, were shallow cuts, and for Lysa to have sex with him, it was unnecessary for him to move. It served her purpose even better, that he was weakened and couldn't resist her advances.

Furthemore, Petyr at that time was a 14-years old hormon-driven teenaged boy, and Lysa was much prettier when she was younger, she came into his room, stripped and got into his bed. He thought that that first time was with Cat, so he was unaware that he already had sex with Lysa once before. So, imagine that situation, what it looked like for Petyr - Lysa Tully came into his room, stripped and got into his bed, saying that she loves him and will do for him whatever he wants. He's a 14-years old boy, and she's a willing naked girl. He had a physical reaction to her whether he wanted it or not.

And don't forget that Jeyne Westerling also had sex with Robb, when Robb was wounded and was mouring his brothers' deaths and burning of his home. Which was not an obstacle for having sex. Young boys and naked girls are like fire and gasoline. You're underestimating Petyr and all males and their horniness. :)

It wasn't Petyr's first time, so he wasn't afraid nor reluctant to have sex. So he did. With Lysa. Again.

16 hours ago, corbon said:

Yes. I've adjusted my understanding and timing to accommodate some sensible and accurate and well referenced points you've made. You should do the same.

I see that it just doesn't makes sense for you that Lysa could have been pregnant at the time of her wedding, though I still think, that it's a viable possibility. I think so, mostly based on two things - 1. After the wedding Lysa was gushing to Cat how their babies will be raised together, [so Lysa at that time was sure/knew that she is pregnant]; 2. The heavy bleeding, in result of which Lysa nearly died, [makes sense if the abortion was made when she was already several months pregnant, like 4-5 months at the time of her wedding]. It's a fact that Lysa talked with Catelyn about her baby, it's a fact that as result of abortion Lysa heavily bleeded. So it's a possibility that my interpretation of those facts could be correct. Though, there's also a possibility that my interpretation of those events could be incorrect. Let's agree on that, and let's stop flooding this thread, which is about Varys' little birds, with discussions irrelevant for the thread's topic.

Back on topic, @TheLastWolf As I see it - Varys refers to all of his spies and agents, as his little birds, despite their ages or social standings. Little birds are not specifically orphaned (supposedly) mute children, that crawls in the walls of the Red Keep. In my opinion, Little birds is a title for all of Varys' informants.

He calls them his little birds, not because they are children (because not all of them are children), but because they are "staying small", unnoticed, they fly under the radar, unseen, stealthy :ninja: even though some of them operate in plain sight. Like Shae, Bronn, Balon Swann, Gerold Dayne, Mandon Moore, etc.

So, I have several more candidates - Shadrich of the Shady Glen the Mad Mouse, Byron the Beautiful, and Morgarth the Merry, three hedge knights, that came to The Vale to enter into LF's service.

Varys' spies in Essos were called little mouses. Shadrish is one of those.

Name Byron was used in the universe only twice, one is this hedge knight, while the other is Byron Swann, the father of Johanna Swann the Black Swan of Lys, who, in my opinion, was Larra Rogare's mother, and thus was a great-grandmother of Aegor Bittersteel Rivers, the founder of Golden Company, and Daemon I Blackfyre. And Varys is a Blackfyre, so he is bloodrelated to Swanns. Furthremore, that Byron Swann was mentioned in ADWD (chapter 8, Tyrion III) in a conversation between Tyrion and Haldon Half-maester, who is obviously one of Varys' people and is connected to Golden Company.

And about this Morgarth the Merry, if the other two are Varys' people, then it makes easier for them to conspire and do whatever they were sent to do, if they will be traveling in a company of their comrades, and won't have to watch every word they say, because there won't be any outsiders traveling with them.

So, all three are Varys' people, and he sent them there to get information whether Sansa is with Petyr at The Vale, and possibly they were assigned to kidnap her, if they will find her with LF.

I think that they will manage to get her out of The Eyrie, but then she will be saved from them by Brienne. And Brienne has already met this people (at least Shadrich), at Duskendale, where she was searching Sansa, and was stalked by Podrick Payne.

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14 minutes ago, Megorova said:

So, I have several more candidates - Shadrich of the Shady Glen the Mad Mouse, Byron the Beautiful, and Morgarth the Merry, three hedge knights, that came to The Vale to enter into LF's service.

Varys' spies in Essos were called little mouses. Shadrish is one of those.

Name Byron was used in the universe only twice, one is this hedge knight, while the other is Byron Swann, the father of Johanna Swann the Black Swan of Lys, who, in my opinion, was Larra Rogare's mother, and thus was a great-grandmother of Aegor Bittersteel Rivers, the founder of Golden Company, and Daemon I Blackfyre. And Varys is a Blackfyre, so he is bloodrelated to Swanns. Furthremore, that Byron Swann was mentioned in ADWD (chapter 8, Tyrion III) in a conversation between Tyrion and Haldon Half-maester, who is obviously one of Varys' people and is connected to Golden Company.

And about this Morgarth the Merry, if the other two are Varys' people, then it makes easier for them to conspire and do whatever they were sent to do, if they will be traveling in a company of their comrades, and won't have to watch every word they say, because there won't be any outsiders traveling with them.

So, all three are Varys' people, and he sent them there to get information whether Sansa is with Petyr at The Vale, and possibly they were assigned to kidnap her, if they will find her with LF.

I think that they will manage to get her out of The Eyrie, but then she will be saved from them by Brienne. And Brienne has already met this people (at least Shadrich), at Duskendale, where she was searching Sansa, and was stalked by Podrick Payne

I believe the theory that the three : Ser Shadrich of the Shady Glen is actually Howland Reed (height and appearance match) Ser Byron is the Hound in disguise and Ser Morgathis the Elder Brother of Quiet Isle and formerly son of Darry. @Fragile Bird believes that he isn't Morgathis but why couldn't both be true. 

 

And Elder Brother's nose is red veined like Morgath's. And many more too

https://www.google.com/amp/s/sweeticeandfiresunray.com/2017/07/13/their-gallantry-is-yet-to-be-demonstrated-shadrich-morgarth-and-byron/amp/

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1 hour ago, TheLastWolf said:

I believe the theory that the three : Ser Shadrich of the Shady Glen is actually Howland Reed (height and appearance match)

No, appearance doesn't match. Howland is not a redhead, he's a typical Crannogman, brown-haired. And Shadrich is described as fox-faced. Meera and Jojen, Howland's children, don't look like foxes, thus it's more than likely that Howland also doesn't have a fox-like features.

1 hour ago, TheLastWolf said:

Ser Byron is the Hound in disguise

Byron is young and elegant with thick, blond hair.

The Hound can't be disquised to look young or elegant. He is 30 or 29, by Westerosi standard that isn't young. Furthermore, it wasn't noted that Byron is above average height, while The Hound is huge. Sansa is an air-headed idiot, but even she is not so stupid that she wouldn't have recognized him. And how did Littlefinger didn't recognized Sandor/the Hound? Did LF became blind? Or did he got infected with Sansa's stupidity?

Not sure about the third one, but he is a spare/an extra, not a centerpiece. He could be whoever.

He could be that Elder Brother.

Could be that the Hound is also searching for Sansa, but because he have too recognizable features, he asked EB to go to The Vale with Shadrich and to check whether Sansa is there. And Shadrich shared with them information, same as he did with Brienne, that Varys offered a lot of money for whoever will find Sansa Stark. So, just in case if Shadrich will find Sansa, the Hound sent EB/Morgath to go with him, and to pretend that he will join his cause, and is willing to sell that Stark-girl to Varys/Lannisters.

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Not to be the Forum Police, but this thread is about the Little Birds.  Lately it seems like a lot of its bandwidth is being taken up by the Lysa/Peter/etc. debate.  Maybe start a separate thread for that?

Thanks --

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12 hours ago, Aebram said:

Lately it seems like a lot of its bandwidth is being taken up by the Lysa/Peter/etc. debate.  Maybe start a separate thread for that?

There is already one for it. And lysa Peter etc is important if he is a ex little bird

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