Lord Eunuch's 'little birds'

[Ser Leftwich]

Where in the timeline of LF having parents, having knowledge of growing up in the Fingers, and then being fostered at Riverrun leaves room for him being a "little bird"? Statistically, zero.  Also, how would it contribute to the story? (Hint: it would not.)

[TheLastWolf]

24 minutes ago, Ser Leftwich said:

Where in the timeline of LF having parents, having knowledge of growing up in the Fingers, and then being fostered at Riverrun leaves room for him being a "little bird"? Statistically, zero.  Also, how would it contribute to the story? (Hint: it would not.)

Already stated in comment #13 by me

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+LF himself (I find this hard to believe he was at River run or the Vale for most of his childhood

If @Megorova explains this one convincingly, I'll believe most of the rest of her theories 

[Megorova]

8 hours ago, TheLastWolf said:

Quote

+LF himself (I find this hard to believe he was at River run or the Vale for most of his childhood

If @Megorova explains this one convincingly, I'll believe most of the rest of her theories 

My theory is that Littlefinger is a secret dragonseed. This is his family tree:

1. Aegon IV + Falena Stokeworth = Jeyne Lothston

2. Jeyne Lothston + Aegon IV = the Bastard of Harrenhal / Manfryd Lothston / First lord Whent of Harrenhal (or the father of the First Lord Whent)

3.1. Manfryd + Otherys Girl = the sellsword from Braavos, LF's great grandfather, Shella Whent's great-uncle

3.2. Manfryd + wife from 7K = House Whent, Shella Whent's grandfather, Oswell and Walter Whent's grandfather, Minisa Whent's grandfather, great grandfather of Lysa and Catelyn Tully, half-brother of the sellsword from Braavos, and LF's great grand-uncle.

4.2. Shella Whent's father, Oswell and Walter's father, Minisa's father/ Lysa and Cat's maternal grandfather / first cousin of LF's grandfather

4.1. LF's grandfather (who was a hedge knight) / first cousin to Minisa's father, to Shella's father and to Walter's and Oswell's father

5.2. Shella + Walter = four sons and one daughter / the original Queen of Love and Beauty at Harrenhal/ Wynafrei Whent, wife of Danwell Frey, Walder Frey's eight son; Hoster Tully + Minisa Whent (second cousin to LF's father or LF's mother, Alayne)

5.1. LF's father; or maybe it was his mother, Alayne, who was a dragonseed, because there's ae in her name - second cousin of Minisa Whent

6.2. Cat, Lysa, Edmure - LF's third cousins

6.1. Petyr Baelish - third cousin to Tully children.

 

Daemon I Blackfyre was Aegon IV's child. Aegor Bittersteel Rivers, founder of Golden Company, also was one of Aegon's bastards. And so were three Otheryses, children of Aegon's first mistress, who was a Braavosi, the First Black Pearl of Braavos, who was granddaughter of the Sealord of Braavos. The Bastard of Harrenhal, Manfryd Lothston, founder of House Whent, LF's ancestor, he also was Aegon's bastard.  

King Daeron II, Daenerys Targaryen, three Otheryses, Daemon, Aegor and Manfryd were half-siblings. They knew about each other, they knew that all of them are Aegon's children, even though in cases with some of them, them, being Aegon's offsprings, was not a common knowledge. For example, three Otheryses were never acknowledged by Aegon as his children. And neither was Manfryd. So this was what they had in common, and why he went to Braavos, to visit there his half-siblings, who were, same as him, spited by Aegon and later by Daeron and Aegon's other acknowledged children.

Manfryd in Braavos had a child either with Narha, or Bellenora, or with Narha's daughter, or with Bellenora's daughter, or with Balerion's daughter.

Narha, Bellenora and Balerion were born in 161-170, and Manfryd was born in 178-180. There was 10-19 age gap between Manfryd and three Otheryses. So it's likely that Manfryd had a child not with first generation of Braavosi-dragonseeds, but with the second, with a daughter of one of those three first generation Otherys-dragonseeds.

When Stannis offered to Jon to legitimize him, prior Jon was chosen as Lord Commander of Night's Watch, Jon thought that it wouldn't be the first time when Kings legitimized bastards. It is known that King Aegon IV on his deathbed legitimized his bastards (though, only those that were previously acknowledged by him as his children, which not included Manfryd and three Otheryses). Jon thought about kings legitimizing bastards, kingS - plural. So who else, besides Aegon IV, legitimized bastards? I think that the other one was King Daeron II, and that he legitimized the Bastard of Harrenhal, who was Daeron's half-brother, but officially was known as a bastard-son of Lucas Lothston, Manfryd of the Black Hood. This Manfryd in span of the First Blackfyre Rebellion at first sided with Daemon Blackfyre, but later betrayed him. Thus, it's likely that as a reward for that betrayal, Manfryd was later legitimized by King Daeron as a Lothston, and became Manfryd Lothston. He thought that thru legitimization he will get Harrenhal, but that's not what happened. Instead Harrenhal got inherited by Danelle Lothston (or her parent), who probably was Lucas Lothston's niece, or his daughter, or grand-niece, or something like that.

Manfryd sided with Blackfyres. Then betrayed them, but still didn't got what he wanted - Harrenhal. So next he decided to side with others like him, unacknowledged bastards of Aegon IV, to use them for his needs. Three Otheryses were descendants of the Sealord of Braavos and the Princess of the Summer Isles. So Manfryd thought, that if he will get their support, it will gain him a lot of advantages. But his plan failed again. All he got is that he impregnated one of Otherys-girls, and then he left her (that child is the sellsword from Braavos, Littlefinger's great grandfather). Afterwards Manfryd returned to 7K, where he entered into service of House Lothston. Either he simply changed his last name from Lothston to Whent, like it was done by Daemon Waters, who became Daemon Blackfyre, or like Orys, who named himself a Baratheon, or Manfryd married with a Whent-girl and took her last name, like it was done by Joffrey Lidden, who thru marriage with a Lannsiter-girl became Joffrey Lannister. Then Manfryd orchestrated downfall of House Lothston, falsely accused Danelle in sorcery, and finally got Harrenhal. This Manfryd is a direct ancestor of Cat and Lysa Tully.

Littlefinger's great-grandfather, the sellsword from Braavos, had a grudge against House Whent, because Manfryd abandoned him and his mother.

Three Otheryses were half-siblings to Daemon I and Bittersteel. So, it's likely that they kept in touch, so did their descendants. The children of Rohanne of Tyrosh (Daemon's wife) were first cousins to second generation of Otheryses. Daemon III Blackfyre was a second cousin to the sellsword from Braavos, who was Littlefinger's great-grandfather.

During the First Blackfyre Rebellion, at the Battle of the Redgrass Field, Daemon I Blackfyre fought against Gwayne Corbray.

"Daemon and Ser Gwayne duelled, with both men using their Valyrian steel swords. The duel is said to have lasted nearly an hour before Daemon gained the upper hand. Corbray was wounded and Daemon dismounted to prevent Corbray from being trampled. He commanded that Corbray was taken off the field.^[1]

In the meantime, Brynden Rivers with his archers, the Raven's Teeth, had captured and assumed a position atop the Weeping Ridge, which overlooked the battlefield and allowed them to rain arrows down among Daemon and his commanders. Daemon's heir Aegon died first, followed by Daemon himself. When Daemon’s second son, Aegon's twin brother Aemon took up Blackfyre, he was slain as well.^[1][9]"

Daemon spared Gwayne, and helped him, and that's why he got killed. So House Corbray owned a debt to House Blackfyre. And Littlefinger's great-grandfather, the sellsword from Braavos, was taken into service of House Corbray, when he went to Westeros. It's a likely possibility, that Blackfyres asked Corbrays to hire their cousin (son of Otherys-girl), to pay off that debt.

So Blackfyres and Golden Company knew that one of their relatives, a dragonseed-child of an Otherys-girl and the Bastard of Harrenhal/Manfryd Losthon/Lord Whent (or the father of first Lord Whent), is living in The Vale (Corbrays are Valemen).

Sometime after the Fifth Blackfyre Rebellion something happened, and the last Blackfyres, Varys and Serra, somehow ended up as slaves. Eventually Golden Company found them, or they themselves found GC. Varys can't have children, and he's an eunuch. Apparently, even though he was the last remaining male Blackfyre, Golden Company didn't wanted to serve to him, didn't acknowledged him as their leader. So he promised them that his sister, Serra, will eventually have a child, and that child will become the leader of Golden Company. Though later Serra died, before she had any children. And GC again faiced a succession crisis. Thus Varys gathered information about whoever else remained of Blackfyre-relatives, and he found Littlefinger in The Vale and Barristan Selmy, who at that time already became a Kingsguard.

My guess is that Barristan's maternal grandfather was Aenys Blackfyre. And the real reason behind the Fourth Blackfyre Rebellion was to retrieve from 7K Aenys' family, that got stuck there after the Great Council of 233 and Aenys' execution by Bloodraven.

fAegon is a Blackfyre, and his parents are Barristan Selmy and septa Lemore, real name - Jeyne Swann. Swanns are bloodrelated to Blackfyres. Johanna Swann was Larra Rogare's mother, and great-grandmother of Daemon I Blackfyre. Balon Swann is one of Varys' agents.

Littlefinger's father fought in the Fifth Blackfyre Rebellion on the side of Targaryens (and that's when he befriended Hoster Tully), so either he was a turncloak and betrayed Blackfyres (which could be a family trend, because the same thing was done by Manfryd), or it wasn't him, who was the Sellsword's descendant. It's likely that LF's mother, Alayne, was the carrier of dragon-genes and a descendant of the Bastard of Harrenhal.

When Varys arrived to Westeros, in 278, (LF at that time was 10 years old), he knew that LF and Barristan are dragonseeds. So it's likely that he eventually approached them. Most likely, Varys recruited Petyr into his service sometime after 282, after Petyr returned to The Vale. That's when LF became one of Varys' little birds. At first LF loyally served to Varys, and did whatever he was ordered, including using his relationship with Lysa Tully-Arryn. Though years later, when he gained a lot of power, he decided to use that power for himself and betrayed Varys. His personal sigil, a mockingbird, is a symbol of his victory over Varys.

As I already said, I don't think that Varys' little birds are all mutes, or only children, or only lowborn. He has all sorts of agents and informants. And he refers to all of them as his whispering little birds.

LF became a little bird, when he was 14.

That's what I think.

In my opinion, GRRM is using a lot of Biblical symbolism in ASOIAF. Littlefinger is a parallel to Biblical Beast out of the earth/the False Prophet.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Beast_(Revelation)#Beast_from_the_Earth

"The second beast is primarily described in Revelation chapter thirteen. This second beast comes out of the earth whose overall appearance is not described, other than having "two horns like a lamb", and speaking "like a dragon".^[5] His purpose is to promote the authority of the first beast with the ability to perform great signs, even making fire come down out of Heaven. This second beast is also called the false prophet.^[6] He speaks like a dragon commanding the people of the Earth to make an image "to" the beast that was wounded by a sword. It is declared that anyone who does not worship the beast or its image would be killed.^[7] The lamb-horned beast from the earth also causes all people to receive the mark of the beast "in their right hand or in their forehead."^[8]"

If my theory is correct, and Littlefinger is a descendant of the Bastard of Harrenhal, who was son of Aegon IV Targaryen, then the Bastard was a grandson of Falena Stokeworth. The sigil of House Stokeworth is a lamb. So, as a descendant of Stokeworth and Targaryen, Littlefinger metaphorically has a dragon's voice and a lamb's horns, like that False Prophet in the Bible.

The first Beast, out of the Sea, who had many heads, one of which was mortally wounded and then healed itself, which caused people to worship that beast, is fAegon and Golden Company. fAegon pretends that he is Elia's Aegon, and that child was killed, when the Mountain bashed his head. So  his head was mortally wounded and then healed itself. And Golden Company is a parallel to the Beast with many heads, because they carry golden skulls of their previous captain-generals.

Just think about it - how did it happened that Varys allowed someone else to rise to power, and didn't got rid of him? When Kevan Lanninster got into Varys' path, Varys killed him. And who was Petyr Baelish all those years ago, when he just joined Small Council? If he was an obstacle for Varys, then Varys wouldn't have let him to become so powerfull. Unless, at the time when LF's carier was only starting, he was working for Varys, and it was Varys who helped him to rise so high. And afterwards LF decided - I don't need you anymore. Bye bye little birds, hello Mockingbird.

[TheLastWolf]

19 hours ago, Megorova said:

My theory is that Littlefinger is a secret dragonseed. This is his family tree:

1. Aegon IV + Falena Stokeworth = Jeyne Lothston

2. Jeyne Lothston + Aegon IV = the Bastard of Harrenhal / Manfryd Lothston / First lord Whent of Harrenhal (or the father of the First Lord Whent)

3.1. Manfryd + Otherys Girl = the sellsword from Braavos, LF's great grandfather, Shella Whent's great-uncle

3.2. Manfryd + wife from 7K = House Whent, Shella Whent's grandfather, Oswell and Walter Whent's grandfather, Minisa Whent's grandfather, great grandfather of Lysa and Catelyn Tully, half-brother of the sellsword from Braavos, and LF's great grand-uncle.

4.2. Shella Whent's father, Oswell and Walter's father, Minisa's father/ Lysa and Cat's maternal grandfather / first cousin of LF's grandfather

4.1. LF's grandfather (who was a hedge knight) / first cousin to Minisa's father, to Shella's father and to Walter's and Oswell's father

5.2. Shella + Walter = four sons and one daughter / the original Queen of Love and Beauty at Harrenhal/ Wynafrei Whent, wife of Danwell Frey, Walder Frey's eight son; Hoster Tully + Minisa Whent (second cousin to LF's father or LF's mother, Alayne)

5.1. LF's father; or maybe it was his mother, Alayne, who was a dragonseed, because there's ae in her name - second cousin of Minisa Whent

6.2. Cat, Lysa, Edmure - LF's third cousins

6.1. Petyr Baelish - third cousin to Tully children.

 

Daemon I Blackfyre was Aegon IV's child. Aegor Bittersteel Rivers, founder of Golden Company, also was one of Aegon's bastards. And so were three Otheryses, children of Aegon's first mistress, who was a Braavosi, the First Black Pearl of Braavos, who was granddaughter of the Sealord of Braavos. The Bastard of Harrenhal, Manfryd Lothston, founder of House Whent, LF's ancestor, he also was Aegon's bastard.  

King Daeron II, Daenerys Targaryen, three Otheryses, Daemon, Aegor and Manfryd were half-siblings. They knew about each other, they knew that all of them are Aegon's children, even though in cases with some of them, them, being Aegon's offsprings, was not a common knowledge. For example, three Otheryses were never acknowledged by Aegon as his children. And neither was Manfryd. So this was what they had in common, and why he went to Braavos, to visit there his half-siblings, who were, same as him, spited by Aegon and later by Daeron and Aegon's other acknowledged children.

Manfryd in Braavos had a child either with Narha, or Bellenora, or with Narha's daughter, or with Bellenora's daughter, or with Balerion's daughter.

Narha, Bellenora and Balerion were born in 161-170, and Manfryd was born in 178-180. There was 10-19 age gap between Manfryd and three Otheryses. So it's likely that Manfryd had a child not with first generation of Braavosi-dragonseeds, but with the second, with a daughter of one of those three first generation Otherys-dragonseeds.

When Stannis offered to Jon to legitimize him, prior Jon was chosen as Lord Commander of Night's Watch, Jon thought that it wouldn't be the first time when Kings legitimized bastards. It is known that King Aegon IV on his deathbed legitimized his bastards (though, only those that were previously acknowledged by him as his children, which not included Manfryd and three Otheryses). Jon thought about kings legitimizing bastards, kingS - plural. So who else, besides Aegon IV, legitimized bastards? I think that the other one was King Daeron II, and that he legitimized the Bastard of Harrenhal, who was Daeron's half-brother, but officially was known as a bastard-son of Lucas Lothston, Manfryd of the Black Hood. This Manfryd in span of the First Blackfyre Rebellion at first sided with Daemon Blackfyre, but later betrayed him. Thus, it's likely that as a reward for that betrayal, Manfryd was later legitimized by King Daeron as a Lothston, and became Manfryd Lothston. He thought that thru legitimization he will get Harrenhal, but that's not what happened. Instead Harrenhal got inherited by Danelle Lothston (or her parent), who probably was Lucas Lothston's niece, or his daughter, or grand-niece, or something like that.

Manfryd sided with Blackfyres. Then betrayed them, but still didn't got what he wanted - Harrenhal. So next he decided to side with others like him, unacknowledged bastards of Aegon IV, to use them for his needs. Three Otheryses were descendants of the Sealord of Braavos and the Princess of the Summer Isles. So Manfryd thought, that if he will get their support, it will gain him a lot of advantages. But his plan failed again. All he got is that he impregnated one of Otherys-girls, and then he left her (that child is the sellsword from Braavos, Littlefinger's great grandfather). Afterwards Manfryd returned to 7K, where he entered into service of House Lothston. Either he simply changed his last name from Lothston to Whent, like it was done by Daemon Waters, who became Daemon Blackfyre, or like Orys, who named himself a Baratheon, or Manfryd married with a Whent-girl and took her last name, like it was done by Joffrey Lidden, who thru marriage with a Lannsiter-girl became Joffrey Lannister. Then Manfryd orchestrated downfall of House Lothston, falsely accused Danelle in sorcery, and finally got Harrenhal. This Manfryd is a direct ancestor of Cat and Lysa Tully.

Littlefinger's great-grandfather, the sellsword from Braavos, had a grudge against House Whent, because Manfryd abandoned him and his mother.

Three Otheryses were half-siblings to Daemon I and Bittersteel. So, it's likely that they kept in touch, so did their descendants. The children of Rohanne of Tyrosh (Daemon's wife) were first cousins to second generation of Otheryses. Daemon III Blackfyre was a second cousin to the sellsword from Braavos, who was Littlefinger's great-grandfather.

During the First Blackfyre Rebellion, at the Battle of the Redgrass Field, Daemon I Blackfyre fought against Gwayne Corbray.

"Daemon and Ser Gwayne duelled, with both men using their Valyrian steel swords. The duel is said to have lasted nearly an hour before Daemon gained the upper hand. Corbray was wounded and Daemon dismounted to prevent Corbray from being trampled. He commanded that Corbray was taken off the field.^[1]

In the meantime, Brynden Rivers with his archers, the Raven's Teeth, had captured and assumed a position atop the Weeping Ridge, which overlooked the battlefield and allowed them to rain arrows down among Daemon and his commanders. Daemon's heir Aegon died first, followed by Daemon himself. When Daemon’s second son, Aegon's twin brother Aemon took up Blackfyre, he was slain as well.^[1][9]"

Daemon spared Gwayne, and helped him, and that's why he got killed. So House Corbray owned a debt to House Blackfyre. And Littlefinger's great-grandfather, the sellsword from Braavos, was taken into service of House Corbray, when he went to Westeros. It's a likely possibility, that Blackfyres asked Corbrays to hire their cousin (son of Otherys-girl), to pay off that debt.

So Blackfyres and Golden Company knew that one of their relatives, a dragonseed-child of an Otherys-girl and the Bastard of Harrenhal/Manfryd Losthon/Lord Whent (or the father of first Lord Whent), is living in The Vale (Corbrays are Valemen).

Sometime after the Fifth Blackfyre Rebellion something happened, and the last Blackfyres, Varys and Serra, somehow ended up as slaves. Eventually Golden Company found them, or they themselves found GC. Varys can't have children, and he's an eunuch. Apparently, even though he was the last remaining male Blackfyre, Golden Company didn't wanted to serve to him, didn't acknowledged him as their leader. So he promised them that his sister, Serra, will eventually have a child, and that child will become the leader of Golden Company. Though later Serra died, before she had any children. And GC again faiced a succession crisis. Thus Varys gathered information about whoever else remained of Blackfyre-relatives, and he found Littlefinger in The Vale and Barristan Selmy, who at that time already became a Kingsguard.

My guess is that Barristan's maternal grandfather was Aenys Blackfyre. And the real reason behind the Fourth Blackfyre Rebellion was to retrieve from 7K Aenys' family, that got stuck there after the Great Council of 233 and Aenys' execution by Bloodraven.

fAegon is a Blackfyre, and his parents are Barristan Selmy and septa Lemore, real name - Jeyne Swann. Swanns are bloodrelated to Blackfyres. Johanna Swann was Larra Rogare's mother, and great-grandmother of Daemon I Blackfyre. Balon Swann is one of Varys' agents.

Littlefinger's father fought in the Fifth Blackfyre Rebellion on the side of Targaryens (and that's when he befriended Hoster Tully), so either he was a turncloak and betrayed Blackfyres (which could be a family trend, because the same thing was done by Manfryd), or it wasn't him, who was the Sellsword's descendant. It's likely that LF's mother, Alayne, was the carrier of dragon-genes and a descendant of the Bastard of Harrenhal.

When Varys arrived to Westeros, in 278, (LF at that time was 10 years old), he knew that LF and Barristan are dragonseeds. So it's likely that he eventually approached them. Most likely, Varys recruited Petyr into his service sometime after 282, after Petyr returned to The Vale. That's when LF became one of Varys' little birds. At first LF loyally served to Varys, and did whatever he was ordered, including using his relationship with Lysa Tully-Arryn. Though years later, when he gained a lot of power, he decided to use that power for himself and betrayed Varys. His personal sigil, a mockingbird, is a symbol of his victory over Varys.

As I already said, I don't think that Varys' little birds are all mutes, or only children, or only lowborn. He has all sorts of agents and informants. And he refers to all of them as his whispering little birds.

LF became a little bird, when he was 14.

That's what I think.

In my opinion, GRRM is using a lot of Biblical symbolism in ASOIAF. Littlefinger is a parallel to Biblical Beast out of the earth/the False Prophet.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Beast_(Revelation)#Beast_from_the_Earth

"The second beast is primarily described in Revelation chapter thirteen. This second beast comes out of the earth whose overall appearance is not described, other than having "two horns like a lamb", and speaking "like a dragon".^[5] His purpose is to promote the authority of the first beast with the ability to perform great signs, even making fire come down out of Heaven. This second beast is also called the false prophet.^[6] He speaks like a dragon commanding the people of the Earth to make an image "to" the beast that was wounded by a sword. It is declared that anyone who does not worship the beast or its image would be killed.^[7] The lamb-horned beast from the earth also causes all people to receive the mark of the beast "in their right hand or in their forehead."^[8]"

If my theory is correct, and Littlefinger is a descendant of the Bastard of Harrenhal, who was son of Aegon IV Targaryen, then the Bastard was a grandson of Falena Stokeworth. The sigil of House Stokeworth is a lamb. So, as a descendant of Stokeworth and Targaryen, Littlefinger metaphorically has a dragon's voice and a lamb's horns, like that False Prophet in the Bible.

The first Beast, out of the Sea, who had many heads, one of which was mortally wounded and then healed itself, which caused people to worship that beast, is fAegon and Golden Company. fAegon pretends that he is Elia's Aegon, and that child was killed, when the Mountain bashed his head. So  his head was mortally wounded and then healed itself. And Golden Company is a parallel to the Beast with many heads, because they carry golden skulls of their previous captain-generals.

Just think about it - how did it happened that Varys allowed someone else to rise to power, and didn't got rid of him? When Kevan Lanninster got into Varys' path, Varys killed him. And who was Petyr Baelish all those years ago, when he just joined Small Council? If he was an obstacle for Varys, then Varys wouldn't have let him to become so powerfull. Unless, at the time when LF's carier was only starting, he was working for Varys, and it was Varys who helped him to rise so high. And afterwards LF decided - I don't need you anymore. Bye bye little birds, hello Mockingbird.

What do you say @Ser Leftwich?

@Megorovamakes some good points but I still fell that my question is not answered convincingly

[Loose Bolt]

If Petyr Baelish becomes a dragonrider then he would have to have at least some Valyrian blood. But without that I am almost certain that we will never find out what kind of pedigree he really have. 

[TheLastWolf]

16 hours ago, Loose Bolt said:

But without that I am almost certain that we will never find out what kind of pedigree he really have. 

If he isn't a dragon seed, 1/64th or such, then there is no need for us to know his secret heritage because there won't be one! 

Then he'll just be a lowborn aspiring to rise to the heavens bcoz of the Catelyn refusal. No secret motive etc. That is what is more obvious now than the dragonseed thing which is a lot of speculation, not saying it's impossible though. 

[Megorova]

19 hours ago, Loose Bolt said:

If Petyr Baelish becomes a dragonrider then he would have to have at least some Valyrian blood. But without that I am almost certain that we will never find out what kind of pedigree he really have. 

It isn't necessary for Littlefinger to become a dragonrider, for readers to find out about his ancestry. He may eventually reveal to Sansa that he has a right to take over Iron Throne, because he is Aegon IV's descendant, thru the Bastard of Harrenhal.

Let's look at Aegon's family tree:

Daeron II Targaryen (born in 153), Daemon I Blackfyre (born in 170), the Bastard of Harrenhal (born in 178-180, son of Jeyne Lothston, who also was Aegon's bastard-child).

Daenerys Targaryen is the only known in the world descendant of King Daeron. Varys is a descendant of Daemon I, most likely, great great grandson, son of Maelys the Monstrous or Daemon the Unnumbered, or a child of a female-Blackfyre. Either way, he can't have children, thus he won't ever be accepted as a viable candidate to become the King of 7K, or even leader of the Golden Company. Then there's also fAegon, who in my opinion is Barristan Selmy's son, and thus a great great grandson of Daemon I Blackfyre. And then there's Littlefinger: Aegon IV - his daughter Jeyne Lothston + Aegon = the Bastard of Harrenhal + one of Otherys-girls (either Aegon's daughter or granddaughter) = the sellsword from Braavos (LF's great grandfather) - LF's grandfather (a hedge knight) - LF's father or mother (Alayne could be a Valyrian name, because it has ae in it).

So, there are three viable candidates and their ancestry is this:

1. Aegon IV Targaryen - 2. Daemon I Blackfyre - 3. Aenys Blackfyre - 4. Aenys' daughter - 5. Barristan Selmy - 6. fAegon.

1. Aegon IV Targaryen - 2. Daeron II Targaryen - 3. Maekar I - 4. Aegon V - 5. Jaehaerys II - 6. Aerys II - 7. Daenerys Targaryen.

1. Aegon IV Targaryen - 2. Jeyne Lothston - 2. the Bastard of Harrenhal (son of Aegon and his daughter Jeyne) - 2. three children of Bellegere Otherys and Aegon IV - 3. second generation Otherys-girl (daughter of Narha, Bellenora or Balerion, Aegon's granddaughter) - 3&4. the sellsword from Braavos (son of the Bastard of Harrenhal and an Otherys-girl, he is Aegon's grandson of his father's side and Aegon's great grandson on his mother's side) - 4. (where 2nd generation is the Bastard and 3rd generation is his son the Sellsword) LF's grandfather (the hedge knight) - 5. LF's father or his mother - 6. Petyr Baelish.

Littlefinger is one generation higher than Dany, and he's male, thus he has a highter claim than hers. LF, same as fAegon, is in the sixth generation of Aegon IV's descendants, but he has a higher claim, because amongst his ancestors there were people, who were dragonseeds on both sides, their maternal and paternal, like the Bastard of Harrenhal (Aegon's son and also his grandson) and the Sellsword from Braavos (who is Aegon's grandson on his paternal side and Aegon's great-grandson on his materanl side). Dany is a female, so by laws of 7K she should be skipped over, and Targaryen crown should be passed to the closest male-relative, descendant of a Targaryen King, and that's Littlefinger.

Aegon IV on his deathbed legitimized all of his bastards, so if there's an evidence that the Bastard of Harrenhal was Aegon's son, and that children of Bellegere Otherys also were Aegon's children, and Littlefinger can prove that he is their descendant, then he has a highter claim over Targaryen crown than Dany. If Jon didn't existed, then Littlefinger would/should have been a rightful King of 7K.

That's what he thinks - that because Dany is a female, and fAegon is one generation further than LF from Aegon IV, their royal Targaryen ancestor, thus LF has highter claim than Dany or fAegon.

Littlefinger thinks that Iron Throne is rightfully his. And it's likely that he will reveal this to readers, either by saying this to Sansa, or to Varys or to fAegon.

[Orm]

3 hours ago, Megorova said:

Daenerys Targaryen is the only known in the world descendant of King Daeron

Ahem......... Only known descendant of king Daeron the Good?......... You guys are discussing these wild conspiracy theories which when reading sounds really convincing............. But why the hell do you guys forget Stan the Man? House Baratheon in its current generation....... Are all descendants of Daeron ll.........

[Frey family reunion]

3 hours ago, Megorova said:

Daenerys Targaryen is the only known in the world descendant of King Daeron.

 

30 minutes ago, Orm said:

Ahem......... Only known descendant of king Daeron the Good?......... You guys are discussing these wild conspiracy theories which when reading sounds really convincing............. But why the hell do you guys forget Stan the Man? House Baratheon in its current generation....... Are all descendants of Daeron ll.........

Yes Orm is correct, Daenerys Targaryen is not the only known descendant of King Daeron.  Perhaps the only known descendant through a male line but not the only known descendant.

While the reader has not been made privy to the specifics, we are told that Both of Daeron's grand-daughters were married and had children.  In addition, we know that Daeron's great granddaughter Rhaelle married into the current Baratheon line.

[Orm]

2 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

that Daeron's granddaughter Rhaelle married into the current Baratheon line.

That would be great-granddaughter, wouldn't it?.....

[Frey family reunion]

3 hours ago, Orm said:

That would be great-granddaughter, wouldn't it?.....

Yea, I fixed it.

[R2D]

On 7/25/2020 at 11:29 AM, Ser Leftwich said:

Where in the timeline of LF having parents, having knowledge of growing up in the Fingers, and then being fostered at Riverrun leaves room for him being a "little bird"? Statistically, zero.  Also, how would it contribute to the story? (Hint: it would not.)

Makes my LF-Varys ship more valid.

[Megorova]

On 7/27/2020 at 5:59 PM, Orm said:

Stan the Man? House Baratheon in its current generation....... Are all descendants of Daeron ll.........

and

On 7/27/2020 at 6:28 PM, Frey family reunion said:

Yes Orm is correct, Daenerys Targaryen is not the only known descendant of King Daeron.  Perhaps the only known descendant through a male line but not the only known descendant.

I meant a descendant of the main branch, like this -

Daeron II - Maekar I - Aegon V - Jaehaerys II - Aerys II - Daenerys.

On 7/27/2020 at 5:59 PM, Orm said:

On 7/27/2020 at 2:32 PM, Megorova said:

Daenerys Targaryen is the only known in the world descendant of King Daeron

Probably, successor/heir, will be a more correct definition.

Also Stannis is only 1/8 Targaryen (Rhaelle Targaryen (half-Blackwood) + Ormund Baratheon = Steffon + Cassana Estermont = Robert, Stannis, Renly), while Dany is 100% Targaryen.

 

Also in that post I was speculating who has highter claim to Iron Throne and Targaryen crown - Dany, fAegon or Littlefinger. Which out of those three considers himself/herself more rightful in his/her claims.

And I don't think that Littlefinger or Varys-fAegon-Golden Company-team still see Stannis as their rival. He went North, and got himself off-boar of the game of thornes.

I don't think that he will return in the game, at least not as "contestant". Majority of his people are "queen's men", Melisandre's followers. They were serving to Stannis, because Mel thinks that he is Azor Ahai. And I'm sure that whatever will shortly happen to Jon, will prove to Mel that she was wrong, and that it's Jon who is Azor Ahai. Under those conditions, do you think that all those people will still support Stannis, or isn't it more likely, that they will switch their allegiance to Jon?

If majority of Stannis' men will ditch him, then who cares that he wants to get Iron Throne? - He won't get it on his own. Thus, he's not a threat for fAegon or Littlefinger or Dany (all three of them has their own armies). He's already insignificant. His battle is lost.

I didn't even included Stannis into my theory, because I already see him as a goner. And his Shireen too.

[Orm]

10 hours ago, Megorova said:

Also Stannis is only 1/8 Targaryen (Rhaelle Targaryen (half-Blackwood) + Ormund Baratheon = Steffon + Cassana Estermont = Robert, Stannis, Renly), while Dany is 100% Targaryen.

Do you hear yourself?? Your logic makes Danny half-targ........ Cause her parents and grandparents are siblings who are half-targ, half-blackwood themselves....lol.......

And the rest of your post ok......... But I don't think anyone of LF, Varys or Danny is going to be the ruler by the end of it either.......

[Megorova]

6 hours ago, Orm said:

Do you hear yourself?? Your logic makes Danny half-targ........ Cause her parents and grandparents are siblings who are half-targ, half-blackwood themselves....lol.......

No, they are not. Her grandparents, possibly, were half and half, but her parents were, most likely, 100% Targs, or mostly Targaryens and also had a bit of Dayne-blond-DNA. Aerys' madness is a prove of it, so is his looks, Rhaella's looks, Rhaegar's looks, Viserys' and Dany's looks <- all of them are blond, while their ancestor, Betha Blackwood, was dark-haired. It's clear that they didn't inherited Betha's Blackwood-genes (Betha herself was half and half, and I think that on her mother's side, she was a partial-Targaryen).

Children get half of their DNA from their mother and half from their father, they don't "inherite" ALL of their father's DNA or ALL of their mother's DNA, they get only half and half of each. Aerys and Rhaella didn't got any of Blackwood-genes.

Aegon (1/2Targ-1/2Dayne) + Betha Blackwood (1Blackwood) = Jaehaerys (1/2Targ-1/2Blackwood), Shaera (1/2Dayne-1/2Blackwood)

<- that's for example, one of possible options for DNA-combinations, though they could have had different combinations, they could have inherited from their father only his Targaryen-genes, or only his Deyne-genes. Also Betha wasn't actually a 100% Blackwood, otherwise all of her children would have been black-haired. But because majority of them were blond (everyone except Duncan the Small, who was dark-haired, like his mother), it seems that amongst Betha's ancestors were blond people. I think that her mother or grandmother was Mya Rivers - Aegon IV's daughter and Bloodraven's sister. So Betha herself possibly was partially Targaryen, not 100% Blackwood.

Other combination are also possible:

Aegon (1/2Targ-1/2Dayne) + Betha Blackwood (1Blackwood) =

Jaehaerys (1/2Targ-1/2Mya's Targ-genes), Shaera (1/2Targ(her father's DNA)-1/2Mya's Targ-genes)

Jaehaerys (1/2Dayne(from his father)-1/2Mya's Targ-genes), Shaera (1/2Targ(her father's DNA)-1/2Mya's Targ-genes)

Jaehaerys (1/2Dayne-1/2Blackwood), Shaera (1/2Targ-1/2Blackwood)

while Aerys and Rhaella both were (1/2Dayne from Jaehaerys and 1/2 Targ from Shaera)

or any other combination.

etc., etc., etc.

Whether Mya Rivers was Betha's mother or grandmother, or whether she wasn't, either way, amongst Betha's ancestors definitely were blonds, otherwise she wouldn't have had blond children.

Though, it doesn't even matter what kind of genes Jaehaerys and Shaera got from their parents, because to their children, Aerys and Rhaella, they passed only their "blond"-genes. Most likely, majority of their DNA was a Targaryen-DNA, though they, probably, also had some of Dayne-DNA. Some Daynes were dark-haired, like Ashara, and some are blond, like Edric Dayne. Aegon V's mother was Dyanna Dayne. Considering that Targaryens nearly always married with other Targaryens, or partial-Targaryens (like Aemma Arryn, who was a daughter of a Targaryen princess; a Penrose-girl, also a daughter of a Targaryen princess; etc.), it seems more than likely, that Dyanna Dayne also was partially Targaryen. For example, there was a Targaryen princess, who married with a Hightower, and they had six daughters. One of those daughters could have married with a Dayne, and Dyanna "inherited" her Targaryen-genes from her 1/4Targaryen1/4Hightower1/2Dayne-ancestor.

Aerys and Rhaella were either pureblooded Targaryens, or partially Targaryens + a bit of Dayne-DNA, BLOND-Dayne-DNA, from that Dayne, who was partially Targaryen.

Aerys and Rhaella both were Targaryen-"blond", so were all of their children, and 2 out of their 4 grandchildren (Rhaego and Aegon - blond, Jon and Rhaenys - dark-haired, like their non-Targaryen mothers).

Considering that Aegon was blond, even though his Martell mother was dark-haired, it seems that Elia was a recessive carrier of "blond"-genes from her ancestors - Valyrian Drazenko Rogare and Daenerys Targaryen. An evidence, that Martells are passive-recessive carriers of "blond"-DNA, is Oberys Martell's daughter - blonde Tyene Sand. Considering that Rhaego is silver-golden-haired like his mother, even though his father was a dark-haired Dothraki, it seems that amongst Drogo's ancestors were Valyrians. Brown Ben Plumm is a descendant of Viserys Plumm, who was one of Aegon IV's bastards. Ben said that his mother was a Dothraki. If that Dothraki-woman was Viserys Plumm's descendant, then it's possible that Ben's mother was bloodrelated to Drogo, and thus Drogo was partially Targaryen, same as Brown Ben, and Drogo and Rhaego inherited their Targaryen-genes from Viserys Plumm/who was actually a son of two Targaryens (Aegon IV and Elaena).

The point is - from her parents Dany "inherited" only their Targaryen-DNA, and thus, yes, she is 100% Targaryen. Her dragons is the prove of that.

While Rhaegar, in addition to his Targaryen-genes, also was a carrier of Dayne-genes, and passed them to Jon. Jon is partially Dayne, so he is going to become next wielder of Dawn, the Sword of the Morning.

[Orm]

3 minutes ago, Megorova said:

No, they are not. Her grandparents, possibly, were half and half, but her parents were, most likely, 100% Targs, or mostly Targaryens and also had a bit of Dayne-blond-DNA. Aerys' madness is a prove of it, so is his looks, Rhaella's looks, Rhaegar's looks, Viserys' and Dany's looks <- all of them are blond, while their ancestor, Betha Blackwood, was dark-haired. It's clear that they didn't inherited Betha's Blackwood-genes (Betha herself was half and half, and I think that on her mother's side, she was a partial-Targaryen).

Children get half of their DNA from their mother and half from their father, they don't "inherite" ALL of their father's DNA or ALL of their mother's DNA, they get only half and half of each. Aerys and Rhaella didn't got any of Blackwood-genes.

Aegon (1/2Targ-1/2Dayne) + Betha Blackwood (1Blackwood) = Jaehaerys (1/2Targ-1/2Blackwood), Shaera (1/2Dayne-1/2Blackwood)

<- that's for example, one of possible options for DNA-combinations, though they could have had different combinations, they could have inherited from their father only his Targaryen-genes, or only his Deyne-genes. Also Betha wasn't actually a 100% Blackwood, otherwise all of her children would have been black-haired. But because majority of them were blond (everyone except Duncan the Small, who was dark-haired, like his mother), it seems that amongst Betha's ancestors were blond people. I think that her mother or grandmother was Mya Rivers - Aegon IV's daughter and Bloodraven's sister. So Betha herself possibly was partially Targaryen, not 100% Blackwood.

Other combination are also possible:

Aegon (1/2Targ-1/2Dayne) + Betha Blackwood (1Blackwood) =

Jaehaerys (1/2Targ-1/2Mya's Targ-genes), Shaera (1/2Targ(her father's DNA)-1/2Mya's Targ-genes)

Jaehaerys (1/2Dayne(from his father)-1/2Mya's Targ-genes), Shaera (1/2Targ(her father's DNA)-1/2Mya's Targ-genes)

Jaehaerys (1/2Dayne-1/2Blackwood), Shaera (1/2Targ-1/2Blackwood)

etc., etc., etc.

Whether Mya Rivers was Betha's mother or grandmother, or whether she wasn't, either way, amongst Betha's ancestors definitely were blonds, otherwise she wouldn't have had blond children.

Though, it doesn't even matter what kind of genes Jaehaerys and Shaera got from their parents, because to their children, Aerys and Rhaella, they passed only their "blond"-genes. Most likely, majority of their DNA was a Targaryen-DNA, though they, probably, also had some of Dayne-DNA. Some Daynes were dark-haired, like Ashara, and some are blond, like Edric Dayne. Aegon V's mother was Dyanna Dayne. Considering that Targaryens nearly always married with other Targaryens, or partial-Targaryens (like Aemma Arryn, who was a daughter of a Targaryen princess; a Penrose-girl, also a daughter of a Targaryen princess; etc.), it seems more than likely, that Dyanna Dayne also was partially Targaryen. For example, there was a Targaryen princess, who married with a Hightower, and they had six daughters. One of those daughters could have married with a Dayne, and Dyanna "inherited" her Targaryen-genes from her 1/4Targaryen1/4Hightower1/2Dayne-ancestor.

Aerys and Rhaella were either pureblooded Targaryens, or partially Targaryens + a bit of Dayne-DNA, BLOND-Dayne-DNA, from that Dayne, who was partially Targaryen.

Aerys and Rhaella both were Targaryen-"blond", so were all of their children, and 2 out of their 4 grandchildren (Rhaego and Aegon - blond, Jon and Rhaenys - dark-haired, like their non-Targaryen mothers).

Considering that Aegon was blond, even though his Martell mother was dark-haired, it seems that Elia was a recessive carrier of "blond"-genes from her ancestors - Valyrian Drazenko Rogare and Daenerys Targaryen. An evidence, that Martells are passive-recessive carriers of "blond"-DNA, is Oberys Martell's daughter - blonde Tyene Sand. Considering that Rhaego is silver-golden-haired like his mother, even though his father was a dark-haired Dothraki, it seems that amongst Drogo's ancestors were Valyrians. Brown Ben Plumm is a descendant of Viserys Plumm, who was one of Aegon IV's bastards. Ben said that his mother was a Dothraki. If that Dothraki-woman was Viserys Plumm's descendant, then it's possible that Ben's mother was bloodrelated to Drogo, and thus Drogo was partially Targaryen, same as Brown Ben, and Drogo and Rhaego inherited their Targaryen-genes from Viserys Plumm/who was actually a son of two Targaryens (Aegon IV and Elaena).

The point is - from her parents Dany "inherited" only their Targaryen-DNA, and thus, yes, she is 100% Targaryen.

Wow...... Just Wow....... You really went overboard to respond to my jab.........

So that makes the Baratheon bros 100% Durrandons genetically speaking right? Since whoever they breed with the offsprings come out  black-haired and blue eyed?....... Fantasy super genes I mean.....

Also since you applied genetics of our world..... Is there a case in the real world where generational incest breeds not only healthy but beautiful offsprings?