Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
TheLastWolf

Lord Eunuch's 'little birds'

Recommended Posts

We all know that the children who killed Kevan Lannister in ADWD's epilogue are the spies of our beloved eunuch, Varys... his little birds who use their size to crawl through the secret tunnels of the Red Keep, spying and listening to secrets for him (which Tyrion finds during his escape... and.. Uh.. patricide)

But why should they be loyal to Varys ? They are boys and girls, not fellow eunuchs and also old enough to understand that whatever kindness Varys shows is to use them for his own ends. The children could use the secrets for their own benefit. And what does he do with them when they are grown up? If he kills them, then how will the next batch trust him if they get to know of it? We know that he gets them from Illyrio...what connection? Hope someone will explain it to me...@Lord Varys himself perhaps? :D

P. S. We see that the girl who opened the door for Kevan is among his killers... but where is the boy who fetched him? His age, appearance, dressing all suggests him to be one of Varys's little birds. Maybe Kevan did not see fit to mention him... he was busy dying after all. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Good questions. I've wondered if perhaps Varys uses some kind of mind-control drug on the little birds, but IIRC, there's zero hint of that or even of any such substance in the entire series. Besides shade of the evening, but that seems to be more of a psychoactive agent & I doubt it would be effective or useful for what Varys has these specific spies do. So who knows. Hopefully we'll get more of an idea in TWoW.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, TheLastWolf said:

And what does he do with them when they are grown up?

When they are grown up they become Shae, Bronn, Chiggen, Petyr Baelysh (traitor), Mandon Moor, Gerold Dayne, Balon Swann, Aurane Waters, etc. Not all of his little birds are street urchins. And not all of his agents are children. Thus he has adult agents, and little kids as his agents, he has smallfolk-agents, and agents from nobility. Amongst his people there are Lords, knights, maids, servants, traders, sellswords, whores, foreigners, Golden Company, etc. If someone is creating a continent-wide spy network, then why to stop only on orphaned or homeless children, as agents of it, if there are more other options and possibilities? It will be much easier to establish/settle fAegon as the King of 7K, if there will be people there (his secret agents), who will be ready for his arrival, willing to serve under his reign, and who will convince other citizens to do the same. That way Varys did what other Blackfyres didn't thought about doing prior going to 7K with their Rebellions - before the seeding, he prepared the soil for it.

And what they get from their service to Varys, is that they are taking part in building the new world order. The one in which fAegon will be the King, Varys will be his Hand, and Varys' agents will be the most respected, influential, trusted, and valued of Aegon's lieges. 

Edited by Megorova

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Varys is an idealists.  We can't say for sure but he feels the end justifies the means.  Wars kill children and other innocents.  What if in his mind, he believes the sacrifice of these children are necessary in order to bring Prince Aegon to the throne?  Robert's war killed thousands of innocent children.  Tywin, Robb Stark, the Greyjoys all do things that kill the innocent.  Varys probably feels this sacrifice of a few having their tongues removed is worth it.  After all, his penis and testicles were removed and he turned out alright.  Losing his desire for sex meant he could focus his efforts towards other goals.  He remains pure in purpose.  Children who cannot speak will be more dedicated to their tasks and they can not gossip.

Why would the children allow this?  For shelter and three meals.  To have a family and no longer be alone.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

We hear in AGoT that Varys needs fifty more birds, and Illyrio is complaining that older birds would be better because they 'don't die so easily', meaning, I assume, that the work in the darkness of the tunnels beneath KL is pretty dangerous, i.e. untrained young birds might have often mortal accidents (Tyrion nearly fell to his death when he was climbing up the Tower of the Hand in ASoS, after all).

There is no indication that older birds are killed by Varys.

I expect that older birds are used to train younger birds, to oversee them, and, especially, to serve as Varys' staff and go through all the information the birds deliver each day from all the manned listening posts in the castle as well as through all the information Varys' gathers through more mundane means from everywhere in the Seven Kingdoms.

He needs some sort of staff to prepare himself for each council session and audience with the king or Hand to have exactly the kind of information his superiors might want or need. He cannot possibly do that all by himself ... but he doesn't have an 'official bureau' or a staff of clerks or officials working for him out in the open. Even his cell, the place he officially lives, is completely empty and just a front. That indicates that he set up his actual headquarters somewhere in the bowels of the castle, i.e. down in that underground well he and Illyrio ascended when Arya overhears them in AGoT.

This would be the place I think Varys and the birds live and where they hang out right now when they don't murder Grand Maesters and Lord Regents.

There is also the fact that Varys once had his little mice back in the old Pentos days, the predecessors of the little birds. The little birds now are not allowed to keep their tongues for secrecy reasons, meaning their ability to lead a normal life after they no longer manage the tunnels are limited (but they could still serve Varys out in the city or even elsewhere in the Realm). The little mice kept their tongues as far as we know which is why I think Ser Shadrich of the Shady Glen, the Mad Mouse, could be a grown up little mouse being sent by Varys to the Vale to keep an eye on Littlefinger and Sansa.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, TheLastWolf said:

We all know that the children who killed Kevan Lannister in ADWD's epilogue are the spies of our beloved eunuch, Varys... his little birds who use their size to crawl through the secret tunnels of the Red Keep, spying and listening to secrets for him (which Tyrion finds during his escape... and.. Uh.. patricide)

But why should they be loyal to Varys ? They are boys and girls, not fellow eunuchs and also old enough to understand that whatever kindness Varys shows is to use them for his own ends. The children could use the secrets for their own benefit. And what does he do with them when they are grown up? If he kills them, then how will the next batch trust him if they get to know of it? We know that he gets them from Illyrio...what connection? Hope someone will explain it to me...@Lord Varys himself perhaps? :D

P. S. We see that the girl who opened the door for Kevan is among his killers... but where is the boy who fetched him? His age, appearance, dressing all suggests him to be one of Varys's little birds. Maybe Kevan did not see fit to mention him... he was busy dying after all. 

I can only imagine that they are given regular doses of the wine of courage, to keep them docile and obedient. And it does seem that the washerwomen in Illyrio's manse are mute, so there is one possibility as to what happens to them -- assuming that the birds actually have their tongues out. Maybe some others wind up serving in a mad pirate's crew?

But the fact that Varys casually requests 50 more birds from Illyrio suggests that he has a sizable number already. How does he manage this? Where do they eat and sleep? Who watches over them? Does he have some sort of underground barracks somewhere? Wouldn't they all be unusually pale and sickly if they are kept in the dark all the time? And what are the odds that, after all these years and presumably thousands of birds, that not a single one of them has tried to tell all he knows and expose this whole operation?

It just seems like the logistics of all this are rather formidable, but I doubt we will ever get a close-up view of any of this.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

When Tyrion is staying with Illyrio, all or almost all of Illyrio's servants do not speak.  Or can not speak, mayhaps.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Ser Leftwich said:

When Tyrion is staying with Illyrio, all or almost all of Illyrio's servants do not speak.  Or can not speak, mayhaps.

There is a little bird even on the ship that takes Tyrion to Pentos - the cabin boy caring for him doesn't speak, either.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The little birds lose their tongues? Sorry, that's a new one on me, and I've read the books quite a few times. Where is this mentioned please?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Aebram said:

The little birds lose their tongues? Sorry, that's a new one on me, and I've read the books quite a few times. Where is this mentioned please?

Check the Varys-Illyrio conversation Arya overhears in AGoT. Illyrio complains about it being if the birds 'kept their tongues' and Varys indicates that would be too risky. It is at the very end of the conversation:

Quote

“What I can do, I will,” the one with the torch said softly. “I must have gold, and another fifty birds.”

She let them get a long way ahead, then went creeping after them. Quiet as a shadow.

“So many?” The voices were fainter as the light dwindled ahead of her. “The ones you need are hard to find…so young, to know their letters…perhaps older…not die so easy…”

“No. The younger are safer…treat them gently…”

“…if they kept their tongues…”

“…the risk…”

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

He needs some sort of staff to prepare himself for each council session and audience with the king or Hand to have exactly the kind of information his superiors might want or need. He cannot possibly do that all by himself ... but he doesn't have an 'official bureau' or a staff of clerks or officials working for him out in the open. Even his cell, the place he officially lives, is completely empty and just a front. That indicates that he set up his actual headquarters somewhere in the bowels of the castle, i.e. down in that underground well he and Illyrio ascended when Arya overhears them in AGoT.

This would be the place I think Varys and the birds live and where they hang out right now when they don't murder Grand Maesters and Lord Regents.

This is what I’ve always assumed. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Over the past few weeks I've noticed many comments about several of Varys's ex-birds. Please help me sort out the false from the real @Megorovaas you seem to be an authority on the matter.

+Ser Shadrich of the Shady Glen

+Bronn

+Anguy

+Kettle blacks (1/2/3 or all of 'em) 

+LF himself (I find this hard to believe he was at River run or the Vale for most of his childhood) 

+Pod payne

+darkstar

+Kem of second sons in Mereen

Any more?? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The boy that tends to Theon (Wat I think his name was) and then explains to Davos what happened at Winterfell when he is prisoner of Lord Manderley.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 6/29/2020 at 10:01 AM, Damsel in Distress said:

Varys is an idealists.  We can't say for sure but he feels the end justifies the means.  Wars kill children and other innocents.  What if in his mind, he believes the sacrifice of these children are necessary in order to bring Prince Aegon to the throne?  Robert's war killed thousands of innocent children.  Tywin, Robb Stark, the Greyjoys all do things that kill the innocent.  Varys probably feels this sacrifice of a few having their tongues removed is worth it.  After all, his penis and testicles were removed and he turned out alright.  Losing his desire for sex meant he could focus his efforts towards other goals.  He remains pure in purpose.  Children who cannot speak will be more dedicated to their tasks and they can not gossip.

Why would the children allow this?  For shelter and three meals.  To have a family and no longer be alone.  

:mellow: harsh but believable

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
7 hours ago, TheLastWolf said:

Any more?? 

Not little birds, more like his agents, including adults.

Shae.

https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Brella

https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Tom_of_Sevenstreams

https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Ravella_Smallwood

"After Varys speaks about the Conclave, Tyrion concludes that the spymaster has little birds at the Citadel in Oldtown.[11]"

Ravella's daughter, Carellen, could be Varys' informant in Oldtown.  

House Swann, not just Balon, who is a Kingsguard, other Swanns too. Because Swanns are, probably, bloodrelated to Blackfyres, and to Varys, because he is a Blackfyre. Ravella Smallwood is a Lady of House Swann, she became a Smallwood thru marriage. So she is also one of Varys' agents, same as her daughter Carellen, and her ex-lover singer Tom of Sevenstreams. With his occupation, Tom has access nearly everywhere, and he can spy after important people, and travel all over Westeros, without drawing any suspicions.

Jorah Mormont, ex-agent.

Gerold Dayne.

https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Salladhor_Saan

Salladhor's ancestor, Samarro Saan, was one of Ninepenny Kings, instigators of the Fifth Rebellion of Blackfyres.

This guy also could be Varys' agent

https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Jalabhar_Xho

based on similarity of his name to Ninepenny King

https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Xhobar_Qhoqua

who was an exiled Prince from Summer Isles, same as Jalabhar. Seems that Xhobar is Jalabhar's ancestor, and, same as his ancestor, Jalabhar is a supporter of Blackfyres.

Maybe Hot Pie. It makes sense that, if Varys was sending Robert's bastard, Gendry, to The Wall, he would have wanted someone to spy after him, to know his whereabouts, if/when Varys will need him for his further plans. Because, even though Gendry was supposed to go to The Wall and to join Night's Watch, things can happen, and he could have escaped, or got lost, or detained, or killed. Thus Varys sent additional pair of eyes (Hot Pie) to watch Gendry. Though, if Hot Pie indeed was working for Varys, it seems that he got recruited just recently, because he is disloyal, lazy, untrained, and undevoted to Varys' cause. He just recently lost his mother, and his "little-bird-brainwashing" didn't had time to put deep roots into his brain. And Varys had other more important assignments for his more capable agents. Thus he sent with Gendry one of his less trained, not yet completely comditioned Little birds. 

https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Belwas

Possibly https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Paxter_Redwyne

because Illyrio has wine from Runceford Redwyne's private stock. Runceford was Olenna Tyrell's father, and grandfather of Mace Tyrell and Paxter Redwyne (married with Mina Tyrell),

and https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Mathis_Rowan

Mathis is married with Bethany Redwyne (possibly Paxter's younger sister).

"House Redwyne is among the noble houses that Prince Viserys Targaryen believes will rise for him if he lands in Westeros.[18]"

<- this seems to be a lie. Illyrio made Viserys think that Redwynes will support Targaryens, while actually Redwynes are supporters of Blackfyres.

7 hours ago, TheLastWolf said:

+Kettle blacks (1/2/3 or all of 'em) 

+LF himself (I find this hard to believe he was at River run or the Vale for most of his childhood) 

Kettleblacks are Littlefinger's agents, all of them, the father and three sons.

Varys has agents not only in King's Landing. My guess is that he recruited LF some time after Robert's Rebellion, and he did it because he knew that LF is a dragonseed with Targaryen blood, and because LF had financial talent.

I think that amongst Petyr's ancestors was Uthor Underleaf.

https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Uthor_Underleaf

Also it seems that LF's great great grandfather was the Bastard of Harrenhal, secret son of Aegon IV and Aegon's daughter, Jeyne Lothston.

Probably the Bastard fathered one child with the Black Pearl of Braavos, and after returning to 7K married with a Whent-girl, and became a founder of House Whent of Harrenhal (those people, that were knights in service of House Lothston, and then played a major role in their dawnfall, and afterwards got Harrenhal for themselves). The Bastard's older son was a sellsword from Braavos (Littlefinger's great grandfather), and his younger son (born by Whent-girl) was grandfather of Lady Shella Whent and Minisa Whent (wife of Hoster Tully and mother of Cat, Lysa and Edmure). So Littlefinger is Cat's and Lysa's third cousin.

LF's great grandfather was a sellsword, his grandfather was a hedge knight, and his father was a petty lord, while his mother's name was Alayne. Maybe this Alayne was Uthor Underleaf's granddaughter. Uthor was a hedge knight, so if he had a daughter, it's likely that his daughter married with a hedge knight, and her husband was Petyr's grandfather, and Alayne's father. Petyr's father wasn't a carrier of dragonseed genes, and a descendant of the Bastard and Black Pearl, instead it was his mother and his maternal ancestors, who were carriers of dragonseed genes and bloodrelated to Whents-Tullys.

If Varys was searching thru 7K for people that have a grudge against Targaryens, and he found out about LF's ancestry, then he thought that it's a good idea to recruit Petyr as one of his agents. Apparently LF knows that he is bloodrelated to Targaryens, and that Varys and fAegon (who are Blackfyres) are also his distant relatives. He has a bit of Targaryen blood, and based on this, he decided that if Blackfyres can strive to get Iron Throne, then so can he.

Thus, he used to be one of Varys' agents in the past, but then betrayed him, and now works for himself, with his final goal to become the King of 7K, thru Sansa's marriage with fAegon, then Sansa poisoning her husbands (same as Lysa did to Jon Arryn), and becoming the Hand and Regent of Sansa's child, the King who will rule after fAegon, supposedly fAegon's child born by Sansa, but actually LF's son, same as Robert Arryn is actually Littlefinger's son, not Jon Arryn's.

Or I could be totally wrong with my theories.

Edited by Megorova

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
On 7/9/2020 at 6:05 PM, Riela said:

The boy that tends to Theon (Wat I think his name was) and then explains to Davos what happened at Winterfell when he is prisoner of Lord Manderley.

His name is Wex @Rielaand I don't think that he may be a little bird coz;

  • Wex did not know how to read and write.
  • Varys never kept any one who did not know how to read and write.
  • Why would Wex lie? he was Theon's squire and who would suspect him if he knew to read/write?Why lie?
On 7/10/2020 at 12:30 AM, Megorova said:

but actually LF's son, same as Robert Arryn is actually Littlefinger's son, not Jon Arryn's.

https://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/157317-is-it-safe-to-assume-that-littlefinger-is-robert-arryn’s-father/&do=findComment&comment=8545241

Quote

Little Robert could not be LF's son because;

  • Jon Arryn couldn't have swallowed his honor and allowed soiled Lysa to get soiled again (as someone mentioned previously) for the sake of continuing his bloodline ( which he will not be doing if the father is Petyr)...he simply couldn't have lived with the truth. Anyway there was Harry the Heir.
  • LF couldn't have secretly slept with Lysa either as Jon was aware of their past relationship and would've taken some measures. Moreover, LF himself regards Lysa ugly (as told to the Imp).
  • Little Robert is weak due to his old father's seed being weak and his last words about the seed being weak is a reference to Robert Baratheon's byblows.
  • LF having no hesitation in putting  Little Robert's life (the sweetsleep episode) is proof enough.
  • Finally, LF plans to eliminate the sick boy (who he thinks will die soon with a little help) to get HtH and Alaynesa to command the Vale as his puppets.

Frankly, it does not matter. Even if Little Robert is LF's bastard, it would do no good for LF to have it revealed as the boy is his claim to regency and power.

But those who say Catelyn's children other than Arya were fathered by LF are very wrong....because how could all of them have Warg abilitites without Stark blood (First men blood)

  4 hours ago, BlackStag123 said:

It certainly could be possible, but I don't know, I don't buy it.

S,You can't buy any of it...because it ain't true.

 

Edited by TheLastWolf

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 7/9/2020 at 5:56 AM, TheLastWolf said:

Over the past few weeks I've noticed many comments about several of Varys's ex-birds. Please help me sort out the false from the real @Megorovaas you seem to be an authority on the matter.

+Ser Shadrich of the Shady Glen

+Bronn

+Anguy

+Kettle blacks (1/2/3 or all of 'em) 

+LF himself (I find this hard to believe he was at River run or the Vale for most of his childhood) 

+Pod payne

+darkstar

+Kem of second sons in Mereen

Any more?? 

There is no reason at all to believe that anyone on this list was a "little bird."

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 7/10/2020 at 11:26 PM, Ser Leftwich said:

There is no reason at all to believe that anyone on this list was a "little bird."

Hope you read @Megorova's comment #16 of this post

And i'd like to hear your views on this Meg since you were so sure and yet did not explain. I know that there was a thread for it(where i posted this) but it may influence the VARYS AND LF plots and my LITTLE BIRDS theory

On 7/10/2020 at 2:33 PM, TheLastWolf said:
On 7/10/2020 at 12:30 AM, Megorova said:

but actually LF's son, same as Robert Arryn is actually Littlefinger's son, not Jon Arryn's.

https://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/157317-is-it-safe-to-assume-that-littlefinger-is-robert-arryn’s-father/&do=findComment&comment=8545241

Quote

Little Robert could not be LF's son because;

  • Jon Arryn couldn't have swallowed his honor and allowed soiled Lysa to get soiled again (as someone mentioned previously) for the sake of continuing his bloodline ( which he will not be doing if the father is Petyr)...he simply couldn't have lived with the truth. Anyway there was Harry the Heir.
  • LF couldn't have secretly slept with Lysa either as Jon was aware of their past relationship and would've taken some measures. Moreover, LF himself regards Lysa ugly (as told to the Imp).
  • Little Robert is weak due to his old father's seed being weak and his last words about the seed being weak is a reference to Robert Baratheon's byblows.
  • LF having no hesitation in putting  Little Robert's life (the sweetsleep episode) is proof enough.
  • Finally, LF plans to eliminate the sick boy (who he thinks will die soon with a little help) to get HtH and Alaynesa to command the Vale as his puppets.

Frankly, it does not matter. Even if Little Robert is LF's bastard, it would do no good for LF to have it revealed as the boy is his claim to regency and power.

But those who say Catelyn's children other than Arya were fathered by LF are very wrong....because how could all of them have Warg abilitites without Stark blood (First men blood)

  On 7/10/2020 at 10:24 AM, BlackStag123 said:
  4 hours ago, BlackStag123 said:

It certainly could be possible, but I don't know, I don't buy it.

S,You can't buy any of it...because it ain't true.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

I have read (days ago) that comment in that other thread, with a list of reasons, why Robert Arryn can't be Littlefinger's child, and that post is so ridiculous, that I didn't even deemed necessary to comment such a blatant absurdity. (Sorry :worried:, but that's how it is).

(Yep, I'm harsh -_-)

For example this:

4 hours ago, TheLastWolf said:

Little Robert could not be LF's son because;

  • Jon Arryn couldn't have swallowed his honor and allowed soiled Lysa to get soiled again

Like FOR REAL? Is that SERIOUS?

Did Robert Baratheon ALLOWED Cersei to fuck with Jaime?

Enough said :smoking:

4 hours ago, TheLastWolf said:

LF couldn't have secretly slept with Lysa either as Jon was aware of their past relationship and would've taken some measures.

Jon did knew (or maybe he didn't knew) that Lysa previously was pregnant. But there's zero mentioning anywhere whether he knew who the father was, or ever asked about it. I doubt that Hoster Tully was advertising that his daughter is a spoiled goods. Lysa's affair with Petyr wasn't a common knowledge. Hoster did told to Jon that Lysa is not a maiden, though she is fertile, because she was pregnant, but who the father was, he didn't said, because - why would he? He thought that, since he sent Petyr back to his home, Petyr is not their problem anymore, and he's in the past and not important. Even Catelyn didn't knew, and she was at Riverrun at that time when Lysa had sex with Petyr, and when Hoster forced her to abort her pregnancy. Catelyn didn't knew.

"In the following fortnight, they slept together again. Lysa became pregnant with Petyr's child as a result of this.[14] After Hoster had Petyr sent back to the Fingers, Lysa revealed her pregnancy to her father, hoping that Hoster would relent and let her wed Petyr. Hoster, who had always felt Petyr was too lowborn,[4] instead forced Lysa to abort the child with moon tea provided by Maester Kym.[14][25] Lysa nearly died from this.[26]"

[14] is Sansa's POV, Lysa herself said to her about what happened between her and LF. [4] is also Sansa's chapter. [25] and [26] is from a mobile app, it's information that GRRM revealed to readers, it's not known to characters that weren't direct participants of those events.

Read thru Catelyn's chapter when she met LF in King's Landing - did it looked like she was aware of his affair (past and present) with Lysa?

She had no idea, and neither did Jon. Otherwise Jon wouldn't have given to Petyr control of customs at Gulltown, on Lysa's request. He thought that Lysa and Petyr are just childhood friends, he had no idea that they had an affair, prior and thru duration of Lysa's marriage with Jon.

Catelyn found out about Lysa's first pregnancy only in ASOS, chapter 2. Before that, she HAD NO IDEA, and she was Lysa's sister, they were close, they even had their own secret language. But Lysa didn't told Catelyn about having sex with Petyr.

Besides Lysa and Petyr, only Hoster knew that the two of them had sex and that Lysa was pregnant. And that was only because Lysa herself told him about it, hoping that he will bring Petyr back and will allow them to marry. Instead he forced her to drink a tancy-potion to abort her pregnancy.

In exchange of his help in Robert's Rebellion, Hoster requested from Jon Arryn to marry with Lysa, he informed him that Lysa is not a maiden, but she was proved to be fertile, so when the war will end, she will be able to give an heir to Jon. Lysa's first pregnancy was aborted after the wedding (read ASOS, Cat I).

Jon Arryn didn't knew that his wife prior their marriage was in a relationship with Petyr Baelish, he thought that they were like brother and sister, because they were raised together, and he never suspected anything, while LF was bonking Lysa behind his back. LF was given post at Gulltown's port around 289. Then he was brought by Jon to court at King's Landing, and within three years was given a post of the Master of coin in the Small Council. Within 3 years from 289 is 291, and early 291 is when Robert Arryn was conceived (he was born in late 291, his birthday is either in October or November). An appointment to the Small Council was Lysa's reward to Petyr for a successful conception. After five failed pregnancies from Jon Arryn, Lysa finally had a viable baby that she made with Petyr.

4 hours ago, TheLastWolf said:

Little Robert is weak due to his old father's seed being weak and his last words about the seed being weak is a reference to Robert Baratheon's byblows.

Little Robert is weak due to various reasons.

One of them could be bad genes. Lysa and Petyr are third cousins, both of them are great great grandchildren of the Bastard of Harrenhal, who was a child of Aegon IV and Aegon's daughter, Jeyne Lothston. The Bastard was a product of incest between father and daughter, so he had bad genes, and high probability of genetic diseases. Add to the mix the fact that his Whent-descendants also intermarried - Shella Whent married with her first cousin Walter Whent. It's likely that the two of them weren't the only Whents that intermarried. It's likely that Lysa's mother, Minisa Whent, also was a product of marriage between closely bloodrelated people. Add to the mix one more instance of incest - Lysa and Petyr themselves.

Usually third cousins share no more than 2% of same genes, which is not the case, if there was incest practiced several times in previous generations. Aegon's grandparents were uncle and niece (Daemon and Rhaenyra). Before that - Rhaenyra's parents were first cousins, Aemma Arryn and Viserys I. Aemma's mother, Daella Targaryen, was sister of Daemon's mother, Alyssa Targaryen. Daella's and Alyssa's parents, were brother and sister - Jaehaerys I and Alysanne. Their father, Aenys I, was a child of brother and sister - Aegon I and Rhaenys Targaryen.

So Robert Arryn's genetic imput is something like this:

1. (starting from Aegon I) - brother and sister (50% of shared genes)

2. brother and sister (more than 50% of shared genes)

3. first cousins (more than 12,5%)

4. uncle and niece (more than 25%)

5. Viserys II + Larra Rogare (no incest, but she was from old Valyrian blood same as Targaryens, so it's likely, that they did shared some genes, even though they weren't close relatives)

6. Aegon IV + Falena Stokeworth (= Jeyne Lothston)

7. father and daughter (more than 50%)

8. the Bastard of Harrenhal/ first Lord Whent/ Shella Whent's grandfather/ Littlefinger's great great grandfather

9. Shella's father | LF's great grandfather

10. Shella + Walter (12,5%+), Whent + Whent (=Minisa Whent) | LF's grandfather

11. Minisa + Hoster Tully | LF's father

12. Lysa + Littlefinger

13. Robert "Arryn" Baelish.

Usually uncle and niece share 25% of common genes, brothers and sisters 50%, though in case with Targaryens and other dragonseeds, than percentage is much higher. So, even though Lysa and Petyr are third cousins, and supposed to have no more than 2% of shared genes, that's not the case, because of their ancestors sharing more common DNA than normal relatives usually have.

Out of Robert's ancestors thru 12 previous generations, 6 were incestuous couples, and possibly 1 more (if Minisa Whent's parents were cousins). At least half of his DNA is "bad blood" - same genes added into genetic pool over and over in the same family thru span of multiple generations. And that's bad for health.

4 hours ago, TheLastWolf said:

LF having no hesitation in putting  Little Robert's life (the sweetsleep episode) is proof enough.

That proves absolutely nothing. Just because Littlefinger is willing to kill Robert, or to endanger his life, doesn't mean that he is not Robert's father.

4 hours ago, TheLastWolf said:

Finally, LF plans to eliminate the sick boy (who he thinks will die soon with a little help) to get HtH and Alaynesa to command the Vale as his puppets.

Again, that proves nothing. NOTHING.

Just because LF is Robert's father, doesn't mean that he has to love him, or care about him. For Petyr, to impregnate Lysa, was just a way to manipulate her. He was using Robert as a leverage against Lysa.

Serenei of Lys, Aegon IV's last mistress, was his mother - Larra Rogare. And look what she did to her own son - besides having sex with him, she was using his life-force to conceive with him a shadow-baby (Shiera/Quaithe). Similar to what Melisandre did to Stannis, to produce her shadow-demons, only what Larra/Serenei did to Aegon, was on a grander scale. Because Serenei's child, besides being a shadow-spawn, is also an actual person/human. She's not a disposable one-off, like Mel's babies were. Serenei drained all life-force out of Aegon, his death was horrible, and his maesters said, that they never saw anything like that. A mother did this to her own child.

Craster was raping his daughters. Aegon IV also was having sex with his daughter, Jeyne Lothston. Ned Stark agreed to marry his daughter to that creep Joffrey. Catelyn agreed to marry Robb with one of Freys, and Arya too. Hoster Tully forced Lysa to abort her pregnancy, as result of that she nearly died, and for years had problems with childbirth. Craster gave his sons as sacrifices to the Others, and those children's mothers ALLOWED IT!.

4 hours ago, TheLastWolf said:

Frankly, it does not matter. Even if Little Robert is LF's bastard, it would do no good for LF to have it revealed as the boy is his claim to regency and power.

He's not going to reveal it. Why would he? The point of fathering a child with Lysa, was to create a leverage against her. He told her that she has to kill Jon, or he will take their baby away, he will give him to that bad guy Stannis, and we can't let that happen. Afterwards - let's get married, now with Jon gone, we can finally become a family, like we were supposed to - you, me and our son. After that - Fly, Lysa, fly! Now he needs to keep Robert under control, and to keep him asleep is a viable way to accomplish it. He never loved Lysa, so he doesn't care much (if at all) about Robert, even though Robert is his son. He is willing to sacrifice his child, to get what he wants. Same as Craster did.

4 hours ago, TheLastWolf said:

And i'd like to hear your views on this Meg since you were so sure and yet did not explain.

Don't be so naive. You think that, unless Jon allowed Lysa to have an affair with LF, then Lysa couldn't have had an affair, and also that if Robert was LF's child, then LF would have cared about him, and wouldn't have been poisoning him with sweetsleep. Yeah, right :rolleyes: Naive summer child ^_^ (No offence intended)

Edited by Megorova

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...