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Varys and Aegon(possible spoilers)


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So , we learn that Varys allegedly smuggled real Aegon out and replaced him with a peasant boy. Allegedly. If this “Aegon” is in fact actually just a Blackfyre bastard, do you think the child himself knows? Or is he as everyone around him convinced he is the real deal?

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On 6/29/2020 at 5:57 PM, LadyBlackwater said:

So , we learn that Varys allegedly smuggled real Aegon out and replaced him with a peasant boy. Allegedly. If this “Aegon” is in fact actually just a Blackfyre bastard, do you think the child himself knows? Or is he as everyone around him convinced he is the real deal?

Maybe he is that peasant boy, but a dragonseed bastard... Aerys may be the father. Who can say for sure? But him being a blackfyre bastard also makes sense. Illyrio and serra? 

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On 6/30/2020 at 12:27 AM, LadyBlackwater said:

So , we learn that Varys allegedly smuggled real Aegon out and replaced him with a peasant boy. Allegedly. If this “Aegon” is in fact actually just a Blackfyre bastard, do you think the child himself knows? Or is he as everyone around him convinced he is the real deal?

I think he believes himself to be the real deal.

But then, I put much less stock in the Blackfyre stuff being important to the main plot than most people.

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On 7/2/2020 at 11:20 PM, corbon said:

I think he believes himself to be the real deal.

But then, I put much less stock in the Blackfyre stuff being important to the main plot than most people.

Do you think he’s the real deal?

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On 6/30/2020 at 8:57 AM, TheLastWolf said:

Maybe he is that peasant boy, but a dragonseed bastard... Aerys may be the father. Who can say for sure? But him being a blackfyre bastard also makes sense. Illyrio and serra? 

That would explain why Illyrio is so invested

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On 7/3/2020 at 1:20 AM, corbon said:

I think he believes himself to be the real deal.

But then, I put much less stock in the Blackfyre stuff being important to the main plot than most people.

Agreed. I see no indication in the text the boy has an ounce of doubt of who he is much less knowledge he's an imposter. That's not a certainty, this is fiction after all, GRRM can do what he wants, but I see absolutely no foreshadowing/hint that Aegon knows he's fAegon.

I'm mostly agnostic on the fAegon theory, seeing it as having a 60-40 chance of being correct. The main reasons to give it credence are (1) other characters voicing skepticism he's real=foreshadowing; (2) the Perkin Warbeck episode as historical precedent; (3) all the time and pages GRRM has devoted to constructing the Blackfyre rebellion backstory, through the Dunk and Egg stories and in the main text.

 

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On 7/5/2020 at 12:44 AM, LadyBlackwater said:

Do you think he’s the real deal?

I don't know.
I don't see much evidence against that holds any weight.
But the only thing truly for it, is Varys' word. Everyone else around him 'came late to the party'. Even Lemore, if she is Ashara, relies on the word of Varys that the child she took in was in fact her friend's son.

(f)Aegon could be real, could be the pisswater prince (not actually swapped out in time), or could be, I suppose, an Illyrio plant - the Blackfyre thing.
I see the Blackfyre thing as least likely of the three. There is no actual evidence for it (I am aware of lots of 'evidence' that is claimed, but in every single piece of data, IMO that data doesn't 'say' what people claim it does*), just the circumstantial situation and the wants of some readers. And since I think it most likely that Lemore is Ashara, and 'joined' the conspiracy to take Aegon to Essos, faking her own death, that virtually (not entirely) rules out the Essossian Blackfyre option. But leaves both the real Aegon and the pisswater prince options with only Varys' word between them.

Warwick Perkin is the only reason I give the Blackfyre thing any credence at all to be honest.

*To give an example, it is argued that the Golden Company acceptance of Aegon is evidence he is a Blackfyre as they were always Blackfyre supporters. But the truth is that that the company is third generation now, there are no Blackfyre's left, and they are promised lands in Westeros, more than enough to transfer their allegiance, if they still had any left, to the other dragons. Plus, they clearly have publicly accepted him as a Targaryen, with no hint of that being an 'in joke' or anything, so clearly its simply false that the majority of the company would only follow a Blackfyre vs a Targ.

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17 hours ago, corbon said:

*To give an example, it is argued that the Golden Company acceptance of Aegon is evidence he is a Blackfyre as they were always Blackfyre supporters. But the truth is that that the company is third generation now, there are no Blackfyre's left, and they are promised lands in Westeros, more than enough to transfer their allegiance, if they still had any left, to the other dragons. Plus, they clearly have publicly accepted him as a Targaryen, with no hint of that being an 'in joke' or anything, so clearly its simply false that the majority of the company would only follow a Blackfyre vs a Targ.

agreed. this carries little weight, other than, again, just being part of the overall Blackfyre rebellion story, which, one can speculate, may/should/must have some importance to the main story to justify the time and effort and page count that have been devoted to it.

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8 hours ago, Brother Seamus said:

agreed. this carries little weight, other than, again, just being part of the overall Blackfyre rebellion story, which, one can speculate, may/should/must have some importance to the main story to justify the time and effort and page count that have been devoted to it.

It would be one hell of a red herring. 

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22 hours ago, LadyBlackwater said:

It would be one hell of a red herring. 

Bingo. If not this then what's the point of the whole Blackfyre back-story? Like I said, I am 60-40 in favor that Aegon is an imposter and that fAegon is a Blackfyre, the last of the Blackfyre line.

And I put the Blackfyre thing and the fAegon thing together. I see no point in making Aegon an imposter unless it fits in with some other part of the story, and the part of the story this fits in with is the whole Blackfyre story.

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On 7/7/2020 at 3:55 PM, Brother Seamus said:

Bingo. If not this then what's the point of the whole Blackfyre back-story? Like I said, I am 60-40 in favor that Aegon is an imposter and that fAegon is a Blackfyre, the last of the Blackfyre line.

And I put the Blackfyre thing and the fAegon thing together. I see no point in making Aegon an imposter unless it fits in with some other part of the story, and the part of the story this fits in with is the whole Blackfyre story.

Are there times when you see a plot so embroiled that you wouldn’t put it past GRRM to just be spinning it to make us dizzy?

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1 hour ago, LadyBlackwater said:

Are there times when you see a plot so embroiled that you wouldn’t put it past GRRM to just be spinning it to make us dizzy?

I'll say this: i think he aspires to art, and literature, and deep, great, storytelling. Whether he achieves his aspiration is for each of us to judge. But, no, i don't think he does anything just to f**k with us, or even to indulge some story line or character backstory because it's satisfying on its own, unless he thinks it somehow adds much more than the sums of its parts, adds to the whole story, fits in somehow with the bigger thing he is trying to do.

He started this over two decades ago. He's rich as f. This is his life's work. He's not going to f**k it up for petty spite or whatever.

On the other hand . . . I think we the audience under-appreciate how much there is an element of the murder mystery in asoiaf. Yes, it's "fantasy" a la lord of the rings, and it has a big element of historical fiction, but with a fake history composed of elements of real history instead of mostly real history, but a huge part of it, and a big part that I find attractive, is the murder mystery/crime drama/whodunit/suspense novel type of thing. So, from that perspective of course there will be red herrings and misdirections and the like, because that's part of the fun of a murder mystery, but aside from that, no, I don't think he puts in stuff just to mess with us.

 

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On 7/9/2020 at 6:14 PM, Brother Seamus said:

I'll say this: i think he aspires to art, and literature, and deep, great, storytelling. Whether he achieves his aspiration is for each of us to judge. But, no, i don't think he does anything just to f**k with us, or even to indulge some story line or character backstory because it's satisfying on its own, unless he thinks it somehow adds much more than the sums of its parts, adds to the whole story, fits in somehow with the bigger thing he is trying to do.

He started this over two decades ago. He's rich as f. This is his life's work. He's not going to f**k it up for petty spite or whatever.

On the other hand . . . I think we the audience under-appreciate how much there is an element of the murder mystery in asoiaf. Yes, it's "fantasy" a la lord of the rings, and it has a big element of historical fiction, but with a fake history composed of elements of real history instead of mostly real history, but a huge part of it, and a big part that I find attractive, is the murder mystery/crime drama/whodunit/suspense novel type of thing. So, from that perspective of course there will be red herrings and misdirections and the like, because that's part of the fun of a murder mystery, but aside from that, no, I don't think he puts in stuff just to mess with us.

 

So very well put. And I know you’re right. I just want so badly to know. Everything. *single tear*

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9 hours ago, Bloodraven’s Spider said:

Aegon is legit. He’s the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna 

What makes you feel so sure? I’m sorry if that comes across as sarcastic, it’s not. I just love hearing thoughts and theories:) I really want to believe he’s the real deal. I want it bad. 

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1 hour ago, LadyBlackwater said:

What makes you feel so sure? I’m sorry if that comes across as sarcastic, it’s not. I just love hearing thoughts and theories:) I really want to believe he’s the real deal. I want it bad. 

I think there’s evidence for both n+a=j and r+l=j I just think based on what we have Aeon being legit adds more to the story then Jon and makes more sense. Jon is essentially a Ned clone. Jon being Rhaegar also just seems so not like a George twist. The twist is there’s non twist... Aegon is real. Without going fully into at the moment. I believe Jon was swapped with baby Aegon at Starfall. Ned did what he thought was best to protect Lyanna’s son and that was send hide him. 

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38 minutes ago, Bloodraven’s Spider said:

I think there’s evidence for both n+a=j and r+l=j I just think based on what we have Aeon being legit adds more to the story then Jon and makes more sense. Jon is essentially a Ned clone. Jon being Rhaegar also just seems so not like a George twist. The twist is there’s non twist... Aegon is real. Without going fully into at the moment. I believe Jon was swapped with baby Aegon at Starfall. Ned did what he thought was best to protect Lyanna’s son and that was send hide him. 

Holy shit. So Jon would be ashara daynes son and that would explain the “she had a stillborn baby” story. Woa. Do you think septa lemore is actually ashara? 

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12 hours ago, LadyBlackwater said:

Holy shit. So Jon would be ashara daynes son and that would explain the “she had a stillborn baby” story. Woa. Do you think septa lemore is actually ashara? 

I don’t believe the stillborn was Jon, if that was the case that would make Jon older then he is. I think that was a red herring thrown in by George to get the reader to think (and add weight to Lemore being ashara as she’s had to have given birth according to Tyrion).

 

I will clean up my write up on how i got to Aegon being legit and share with you. and yes Lemore is Ashara. Haldon Halfmaester is Walys Flowers (Winterfell’s Maester during the rebellion- replaced by Luwin).

 

Too many people on this board take R+L=J like gospel and shit themselves if you dont agree with them. Even though R+L=J Isn’t 100% proven... like N+A=J. We need more information to have a conclusive answers. 

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6 hours ago, Bloodraven’s Spider said:

I don’t believe the stillborn was Jon, if that was the case that would make Jon older then he is. I think that was a red herring thrown in by George to get the reader to think (and add weight to Lemore being ashara as she’s had to have given birth according to Tyrion).

 

I will clean up my write up on how i got to Aegon being legit and share with you. and yes Lemore is Ashara. Haldon Halfmaester is Walys Flowers (Winterfell’s Maester during the rebellion- replaced by Luwin).

 

Too many people on this board take R+L=J like gospel and shit themselves if you dont agree with them. Even though R+L=J Isn’t 100% proven... like N+A=J. We need more information to have a conclusive answers. 

For real, I’m almost scared to theorize otherwise! I would love to see you theories!

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