Rose of Red Lake Posted July 5, 2020 Share Posted July 5, 2020 18 hours ago, SeanF said: Northern independence was a pretty hare-brained idea. It made an enemy out of every potential ally. Nah the idea is fine, timing was bad. And speaking of making enemies, the House who killed the North's leaders in the worst way possible, twice, is great at that. Tywin's actions were the same as Joffrey's, just more calculating. It only causes people to rise up against you again. Actions like that mean alliances arent built on anything lasting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Foot_Of_The_King Posted July 6, 2020 Share Posted July 6, 2020 I don’t Tywin even had the idea of the Red Wedding. I think he just assured Roose and Frey that he “had their backs). I could be wrong though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arthur Peres Posted July 6, 2020 Share Posted July 6, 2020 Of course it is. Guess right is sacred on Westeros, when he planed and allowed it to be carried under his supervision he is just as bad as the Walder and Roose. And it is clear as day that there is a diference betwen killing someone in the battlefield and killing them in the dinner hall or even in their prison cell as we saw with Karstark. What Tywin allowed to happen ended any kind of limit and boundry of violence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moiraine Sedai Posted July 7, 2020 Share Posted July 7, 2020 On 7/3/2020 at 5:05 PM, The Young Maester said: As long as no westerlander soldier dies. He is probably happy as long as he gets results. He realised that robb was going to lose the war. More. Jaime knew more than that. He knew Roose was committed to betraying Robb Stark. He knew, Robb Stark must die in order for Roose to be safe. Jaime knew Roose was planning to kill Robb. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King17 Posted July 11, 2020 Share Posted July 11, 2020 No in war there is no substitute for victory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Targknight Posted July 23, 2020 Share Posted July 23, 2020 No, The Starks where the bad guys. They started a war that killed thousands. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alyn Oakenfist Posted July 23, 2020 Author Share Posted July 23, 2020 2 hours ago, sexyprinceviserys said: No, The Starks where the bad guys. They started a war that killed thousands. I mean not really. War was inevitable the moment Stannis discovered the truth about the incest kids. One of the things with GRRM is that while it is clear that war is wrong, he never really blames just one side. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Targknight Posted July 23, 2020 Share Posted July 23, 2020 8 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said: I mean not really. War was inevitable the moment Stannis discovered the truth about the incest kids. One of the things with GRRM is that while it is clear that war is wrong, he never really blames just one side. Ned Stark and Robb were villain. This is why he got them killed. A villain is a hero from the other side. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alyn Oakenfist Posted July 23, 2020 Author Share Posted July 23, 2020 8 minutes ago, sexyprinceviserys said: Ned Stark and Robb were villain. This is why he got them killed. A villain is a hero from the other side. Yes because Joffrey the little shit, and Cersei are clearly good guys Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Targknight Posted July 23, 2020 Share Posted July 23, 2020 2 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said: Yes because Joffrey the little shit, and Cersei are clearly good guys That is according to George. Anti-Villain Vs Villain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Universal Sword Donor Posted July 24, 2020 Share Posted July 24, 2020 5 hours ago, sexyprinceviserys said: No, The Starks where the bad guys. They started a war that killed thousands. I seem to recall the Mountain pillaging, burning, and murdering in the RL well before Robb called his banners Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Targknight Posted July 24, 2020 Share Posted July 24, 2020 1 hour ago, Universal Sword Donor said: I seem to recall the Mountain pillaging, burning, and murdering in the RL well before Robb called his banners Catelyn kidnapped Tyrion, and took him to be executed. Imagine someone kidnaps your family member. God forbid. You won’t serve them milk and cookies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Universal Sword Donor Posted July 24, 2020 Share Posted July 24, 2020 2 hours ago, sexyprinceviserys said: Catelyn kidnapped Tyrion, and took him to be executed. Imagine someone kidnaps your family member. God forbid. You won’t serve them milk and cookies. I would not but I’d also petition the king for justice while I was killing them As I’m not an idiot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Targknight Posted July 24, 2020 Share Posted July 24, 2020 2 hours ago, Universal Sword Donor said: I would not but I’d also petition the king for justice while I was killing them As I’m not an idiot Tywin did nothing wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orm Posted July 24, 2020 Share Posted July 24, 2020 15 minutes ago, sexyprinceviserys said: Tywin did nothing wrong Yes absolutely......... He did nothing without calculating the merits and demerits of his actions............ But those calculations led to him being killed by his son while taking a shit.......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeanF Posted July 24, 2020 Share Posted July 24, 2020 10 hours ago, sexyprinceviserys said: Ned Stark and Robb were villain. This is why he got them killed. A villain is a hero from the other side. That's a very misunderstood comment. Martin is absolutely not saying that there's no moral distinction to be drawn between combatants. There are people who are rotten to the core in this story like Littlefinger, Tywin, Ser Gregor Clegane, Vargo Hoat, Ramsay Bolton, Kraznys Mo Nakloz, etc. These are not people who are heroes from anyone's point of view. But, relatively sympathetic characters can come into conflict with each other, such as Tyrion and Davos, at the Battle of Blackwater. Stannis is in the right, but if he wins, there's a real risk that innocents like Sansa might be raped or murdered. In that case, readers are invited to see the battle from more than one point of view. Likewise, people who we might see as heroic (such as Robb, Ned, Jon, Dany) are flawed, and some people who we might see as villainous (like Ser Jaime) can have some decent qualities. But, Martin is not arguing that good and evil don't exist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Universal Sword Donor Posted July 24, 2020 Share Posted July 24, 2020 7 hours ago, sexyprinceviserys said: Tywin did nothing wrong. We’ve hit the “leave Britney alone”’ point in the red wedding thread. Pack it up ladies and gents Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Targknight Posted July 25, 2020 Share Posted July 25, 2020 20 hours ago, Orm said: Yes absolutely......... He did nothing without calculating the merits and demerits of his actions............ But those calculations led to him being killed by his son while taking a shit.......... You are right Tywin should have drowned Tyrion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Targknight Posted July 25, 2020 Share Posted July 25, 2020 19 hours ago, SeanF said: That's a very misunderstood comment. Martin is absolutely not saying that there's no moral distinction to be drawn between combatants. There are people who are rotten to the core in this story like Littlefinger, Tywin, Ser Gregor Clegane, Vargo Hoat, Ramsay Bolton, Kraznys Mo Nakloz, etc. These are not people who are heroes from anyone's point of view. But, relatively sympathetic characters can come into conflict with each other, such as Tyrion and Davos, at the Battle of Blackwater. Stannis is in the right, but if he wins, there's a real risk that innocents like Sansa might be raped or murdered. In that case, readers are invited to see the battle from more than one point of view. Likewise, people who we might see as heroic (such as Robb, Ned, Jon, Dany) are flawed, and some people who we might see as villainous (like Ser Jaime) can have some decent qualities. But, Martin is not arguing that good and evil don't exist. George said a villain is a hero from the other side, so you are right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orm Posted July 25, 2020 Share Posted July 25, 2020 1 hour ago, sexyprinceviserys said: You are right Tywin should have drowned Tyrion. Then Kings-landing would have fallen to Stannis the Mannis........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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