Podrick Payne, a Greyjoy/Targaryen/Blackfyre/Stark/???

[TheLastWolf]

I always thought that there was something more to him than what meets the eye. I don’t think that I need to explain him being a Payne. For those few who might’ve forgotten his heritage, there’s always the Wiki of Ice and Fire. But the rest below….they are my theories (meaning a mix of speculations, predictions and calculated guesses)

Greyjoy:

• Father may be Rodrik Greyjoy, Balon’s eldest son who was slain by Jason Mallister at the Storming of Seagard during Greyjoy’s rebellion.
• Pod’s supposed father, a lesser Payne was also killed during the rebellion in 289 A.C., the same year Rodrik died.
• Pod was born somewhere around late 287 A.C. I think that his mother was one of the sisters of Ser Harras Harlaw, Rodrik the Reader’s heir and Rodrik Greyjoy’s best mate.
• The names Podrick and Rodrik are also very similar.
• Westerlands are close to the Iron Islands, so Pod could have been sent to the widow of his supposed ‘Payne’ father because?...Harras’s sister didn’t want to raise a bastard and the widow of Pod’s supposed father could have lost her child and raised Pod as her own…before running away with Pod’s supposed father’s cousin (I think she was really murdered by Euron Greyjoy to silence the truth, as Pod would then be heir to the Iron Islands)
• Pod’s appearance also matches that of the Greyjoys.

In the end if the truth is revealed, I think Pod could maybe become recognized by the Harlaws (maybe even heir if Harras dies? Then he’d get the Valyrian steel sword, Nightfall. But first he has to do some act of valor to prove himself) But I don’t see any Krakens accepting him anytime soon…..as no Podless, sorry, godless man may sit on the Seastone Chair (pun intended).

Targaryen/Blackfyre:

• Pod squiring for Brienne is very, very similar to Egg (Aegon V Targaryen) squiring for Dunk (Ser Duncan the Tall). And if Brienne is one of Dunk’s descendants as many believe (incl. me), GRRM could have planned Pod to be Egg’s descendant (I mean a dragonseed).
• POD-EGG three latters each.
• Appearance doesn’t matter as not all Targaryens were silver haired or purple eyed, take R+L=J for example.
• Pod could be descended from one of Aegon IV’s many bastard bloodlines (will take too long to enumerate, hope you know most of them) or…..
• ….Ser Bonifer Hasty and Rhaella Targaryen could have had a daughter who might’ve been passed off as a stillbirth to the Mad King. She could have been given to that chandler and could have married that lesser Payne and had Pod. She might not have run away, but could be one of the women whose identity is still a mystery till ADWD.

If this is true, I don’t mean that he’s gonna become King or anything. Just that his noble worth would increase and he may even get a Lordship and lands for some deeds in the victor’s cause (only if its Dany or fAegon )

Stark:

• Again Podrick-Rodrik similarity, but this time it is RODRIK STARK, the Wandering Wolf who could be his grandfather or something. And some believe (again me included) that the Tattered Prince is the Wandering Wolf. See @Megorova‘s posts in the following link…she has me convinced.

• Or Alysanne Stark could be how Pod got the wolf blood in him. I think that Old Nan was Alysanne Stark and all of Dunk's descendants (CLEGANES,WENDA/MERIS CAFFEREN,BRIENNE and HODOR) came through her.
• This means that Brienne and Pod are unknowingly related, just like Dunk and Egg were unknowingly related(Dunk was most probably Daemon I Blackfyre and Daenerys I's bastard)
• Pod's Dunk genes may get activated as he still has time to grow and become handsome and I think he may end up marrying Sansa(remember how he used to blush around her?) if this is all true.
• And he's well versed in history,house sigils,knows his letters, is learned and educated,not evil like half of Westeros and may yet become a good fighter if his training which began under Aron Santagar is finished by Brienne. He has the makings of a good Lord, not now, but in a few years with proper training and counsel
• I do not think that Old Nan is Rohanne webber like many because the Ghost of High Heart is Rohanne webber and not a COTF as Jenny of Oldstones claimed. For more proofs to reinforce this point and the last few, please see some of my posts where she(megorova) has discussed them in detail.  @Megorova

[Nevets]

We've seen not so much as a hint in the text that he is anything other than a Payne.  Until and unless such a hint arrives, I do not see any reason to consider him as anything else.  All we have here is random speculation created out of thin air.

[The Young Maester]

I think you’re overthinking it mate.

[Curled Finger]

Pod's just a little boy and though Egg was a prince in disguise, he was also just a little boy.  The parallels between D&E and B&P are many and inverted with Brienne being the noble where Dunk was a commoner.  Pod isn't a commoner, but he also isn't far from it, his house described as impoverished. Pod doesn't have to be in disguise to make this inversion work completely. 

[Seams]

It's fun to spin out these possibilities. I like your "sounds like Rodrick" lines of thinking - you never know where these rhymes might lead.

Some points I think we have to consider when deciphering Pod:

1) Payne sounds like Dayne and Reyne. Could there be parallels or symbolism in either of those Houses to explain House Payne?

2) His only known living relative is Ser Ilyn. We don't know the relationship, but what clue does this relationship provide in sorting out both Paynes?

3) I think there is wordplay around Payne / pane / pain and (the French word for bread) pain. So windows, physical distress and bread could all be linked.

4) The House Payne sigil is gold coins on a field of purple and white checks. Tyrion says that there is a story behind the sigil but then withholds that story from the reader. So we know it has to be good and that it will probably reveal something if/when we finally hear it.

5) There are parallels between Ser Dontos Hollard and Podrick, and Brienne finally catches Pod (who has been not-so-secretly following her) in the ruins of the Hollard family castle.

I can't testify about the accuracy of your potential Targaryen connection but, oddly enough, there is a little support for it in the symbolism. The gold coins in the Payne sigil could be gold dragons, which are often allusions to the Targaryens. Purple is also often associated with Targaryens and the color white or silver in a coat of arms is often called "argent". Argent also leads back to Targaryens through wordplay on garnets.

I have also found that diamond-shaped window panes are compared to dragon's teeth in ASOIAF. So the Payne surname could also refer to dragons.

Finally, GRRM is very specific about the unique horse ridden by Pod: an old piebald rounsey. The "bald" syllable could be an allusion to Dunk's squire, Egg who shaved his head to hide his identity. The "pie" could be part of the bread/pain wordplay.

But the horse is mostly mysterious to me. I'm sure it's significant, though.

[Megorova]

I'm not sure who Pod's ancestors are, and whether his ancestry is relevant for the story. Though, I think, that he is one of Varys' agents.

There is an obvious parallel between attack of Gerold Dayne on Myrcella, and Mandon Moore's attack on Tyrion. Cersei was made to believe that the first was done on Tyrion's order. Tyrion thought that the second was done on Cersei's order. Both were wrong. Though, them thinking that, placed a wedge between Lannisters, made them to hate each other even more. I think that both Gerold and Mandon are Varys' agents, and that they intentionally assaulted Lannisters, and mutilated them, without killing them, and then got away.

Possibly Podrick and Mandon talked beforehand, what each of them was going to do and when. Mandon attacked Tyrion, pretending that his aim is to kill him, then he wounded him, and Podrick attacked Mandon in a way, that made it to look as if though Pod saved Tyrion, and Mandon drowned. Thanks to his supposed drowning, he was able to ditch his post as a Kingsguard, and went elsewhere, to work on Varys' other assignment (same as Gerold Dayne did).

Seems that Varys promised to Gerold (the Sword of the Morning-wannabe), that he is going to become general of united forces of Golden Company, Dornishmen army, Tyrell-troops, etc. (Tyrells/Redwynes possibly conspired with Varys way back prior Robert's Rebellion, and now they planned to marry Margaery to fAegon, in exchange for giving their assistance during fAegon's conquest of 7K).

AFFC, chapter 21 - "If I led a quarter of a million men to death, would they call me Gerold the Great? I shall remain Darkstar, I think. At least it is mine own."

https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Military_strength.  

250.000 soldiers - 30.000 of Stormlanders, added to Varys' troops thru Margaerys' marriage with Renly; 100.000 from The Reach; 50.000 from Dorne; 10.000 Dothraki, that were supposed to be provided by Khal Drogo; 10.000 - Golden Company; 50.000 from The Vale of Arryn, that were supposed to be provided by Littlefinger, while Varys still thought, that Littlefinger is working for him, it was prior LF's betrayal.

Gerold is going to lead Varys' army. Because Varys obviously isn't going to risk fAegon's life in every battle of his conquest. If Gerold was given a significant place in Varys' plans, then Mandon is also supposed to play some bigger role. And that's why he had to fake his death.

And he couldn't have faked his death without Podrick's assistance. Thus, Pod is also working for Varys.

If Mandon didn't faked his death, and he really did died, and left the story for good, then he was an insignificant character. And if that is so, then why did GRRM, already after that guy's supposed death, kept mentioning him again and again? Wasn't it to hint to readers, that this guy wasn't, who he seemed to be, that there's some sort of mystery about him, and that the story isn't done with him yet?

Bronn and Shae are also Varys' agents. He placed three of his spies into Tyrion's inner circle (Pod is the third). Podrick went after Brienne, because his mission is to find out for Varys, where Littlefinger took Sansa.

[Seams]

2 hours ago, Megorova said:

If Mandon didn't faked his death, and he really did died, and left the story for good, then he was an insignificant character. And if that is so, then why did GRRM, already after that guy's supposed death, kept mentioning him again and again? Wasn't it to hint to readers, that this guy wasn't, who he seemed to be, that there's some sort of mystery about him, and that the story isn't done with him yet?

For reasons I don't yet fully understand, members of the kings guard are able to cross boundaries. Selected other characters seem to have this power, but I think all kingsguard members have it. Some of the barriers or boundaries are marked by rivers, so your connection between Mandon Moore and Darkstar might be right - both of their key scenes occur at river crossings.

But Areo Hotah is the kings guard in the scene where Darkstar attacks Myrcella, and he is barring the passage across the river. So Darkstar might be the parallel to Mandon Moore OR Areo Hotah might be the parallel. Or both, I suppose, each playing part of the role. In both cases, the passage across the barrier is blocked. (I suppose we would have to figure out the role of kings guard Arys Oakheart, as well.)

If the Payne / Dayne wordplay is a thing, Darkstar could be a parallel to Podrick.

Mandon Moore is a dead guy even before the drowning at the Blackwater, and I suspect he had the unique ability to lead people across the barrier between life and death. The purpose of Mandon Moore's character might be to show that Tyrion almost crossed the barrier into death, but Pod saved him.

But I think you are also right that there is a mystery about Ser Mandon Moore. He comes from the Vale and Robert appoints him to the kings guard as a favor to Jon Arryn. We saw a somewhat similar situation with Ser Hugh of the Vale knighted and then killed in the jousting match.

Oddly, Ser Hugh is killed by Ser Gregor who becomes - ta da! - a dead guy in the kings guard. At the Battle of the Green Fork, Ser Gregor told Tyrion to hold the river; to prevent Stark's army from crossing it.

Qyburn created Ser Robert Strong. So who created Ser Mandon Moore, and who/what was he before he joined the kings guard and before Pod killed him?

[TheLastWolf]

11 hours ago, Seams said:

Ser Mandon Moore. He comes from the Vale and Robert appoints him to the kings guard as a favor to Jon Arryn

Vale. Littlefinger. Baelish. Ring any bells? Moore could be LF's man as easily as Varys's

Quote

Though, them thinking that, placed a wedge between Lannisters, made them to hate each other even more. I think that both Gerold and Mandon are Varys' agents, and that they intentionally assaulted Lannisters, and mutilated them, without killing them, and then got away.

I think LF has an even greater stake in causing this than Varys, @Megorova

[McGuv19]

If Pod does have ulterior motives, he may be working for Varys.

There is lots of reference to Podrick being tongue-tied, which could allude to Varys’ little birds typically not having tongues.

However, it is probably just a reference to Ilyn Payne losing his tongue.

[TheLastWolf]

23 hours ago, The Young Maester said:

I think you’re overthinking it mate.

That is what they told to Copernicus, I bet.

[Megorova]

8 hours ago, TheLastWolf said:

Vale. Littlefinger. Baelish. Ring any bells? Moore could be LF's man as easily as Varys's

I think LF has an even greater stake in causing this than Varys, @Megorova

I also thought at first that Moore could have been one of Littlefinger's agents. But - when Tyrion sent Bronn to investigate Mandon, and later also asked Varys about that guy, what both Bronn and Varys told Tyrion, was the same information. Thus, Varys and Bronn worked together on what information should they give to Tyrion.

Also, during the rior at King's Landing, when they were sending Myrcella to Dorne, Sandor Clegane was guarding Joffrey, and Mandon was guarding Sansa. Though, when Sandor was attacked and got separated from them by the mob, Mandon protected Joffrey, and let the mob to take Sansa. If he was working for Littlefinger, he would have let them to kill Joffrey, and would have protected Sansa, because Sansa is a key figure in LF's Game of Thrones.

Furthermore, if LF already had one of his agents in the Kingsguard, he wouldn't have needed Kettleblacks to infiltrate it. They (one of them) joined Kingsguard before Mandon's supposed death. Varys used that riot at KL, as an opportunity to install into the Kingsguard, a replacement for Mandon, who was supposed to depart on his mission away from King's Landing, and thus Varys inserted Balon Swann into KG. Balon is also working for Varys. Varys had Balon as Mandon's replacement, and nevertheless Littlefinger installed one of Kettleblacks into KG.

Thus, Mandon wasn't working for LF.

[TheLastWolf]

On 7/3/2020 at 1:10 AM, Seams said:

1) Payne sounds like Dayne and Reyne. Could there be parallels or symbolism in either of those Houses to explain House Payne?

2) His only known living relative is Ser Ilyn. We don't know the relationship, but what clue does this relationship provide in sorting out both Paynes?

Valyrian Steel is somehow getting linked with Pod theories

Dayne - Dawn

Reyne - Red Rain

Targ/B.Fyre - Dark Sister or Blackfyre 

HarlawGreyjoy - Nightfall

Stark - New/Old Ice, and if new... Oathkeeper is out, only Widow's Wail. 

I bet Pod is gonna be instrumental in the final battle against the Others 

... And Ilyn is a headsman , any connections you can think of? 

 

[Seams]

10 hours ago, TheLastWolf said:

Valyrian Steel is somehow getting linked with Pod theories

Dayne - Dawn

Reyne - Red Rain

Targ/B.Fyre - Dark Sister or Blackfyre 

HarlawGreyjoy - Nightfall

Stark - New/Old Ice, and if new... Oathkeeper is out, only Widow's Wail. 

I bet Pod is gonna be instrumental in the final battle against the Others 

... And Ilyn is a headsman , any connections you can think of?

Ser Ilyn, the King's Justice, was the last person to use the sword Ice, as far as we know. I have long suspected that GRRM is implying that the sword Ice is part of a pair or a single sword that was once called Just-Ice. Ser Ilyn is now helping to train Jaime to use his left arm for swordfighting: the arm that did not slay Aerys or push Bran out of the old keep. Long ago, I had a theory that Ser Ilyn is the silent white direwolf for the Lannisters. His own apparent sword is silver and covered with runes and was used by Joffrey to cut open the pigeon pie at the wedding feast just before Joffrey started to choke.

A pod is a kind of seed, so there may be, "The seed is strong" symbolism around Pod. I would look at Ser Gregor as a compare/contrast parallel as his name is now Ser Robert Strong. Seeds and strong seem to go together.

At Crackclaw Point, Pod comes to life suddenly at the ruins of The Whispers, providing key support for Brienne in defeating the Brave companions Shagwell, Pyg and Timeon. Brienne is using Oathkeeper in the scene. Dick Crabb had been nagging Brienne about the use of her other sword all along their trip to the Whispers and she refused to arm him until the last minute. Dick never really gets a chance to use the sword, however, as his knee is shattered by a morningstar and he is soon killed.

I don't see a strong link between Pod and Valyrian steel, necessarily, but the justice theme seems to be strongly linked to Ser Ilyn. I suspect that Pod will mature to embody a new and different form of justice. Maybe a more just form of justice. Brienne is training him in sword use and she will be a very good influence on him.

[Lord Lannister]

Am I the only one that thinks we're trying way too hard to find something that likely isn't there?

[broken one]

38 minutes ago, Lord Lannister said:

Am I the only one that thinks we're trying way too hard to find something that likely isn't there?

definitely not

podrick payne is son of a squire of payne family, he's brave and loyal lad. He is not dalton greyjoy, richard nixon nor polar bear.

[TheLastWolf]

33 minutes ago, broken one said:

definitely not

podrick payne is son of a squire of payne family, he's brave and loyal lad. He is not dalton greyjoy, richard nixon nor polar bear.

I'm sure that guys who proposed R+L=J after the release of the first book, AGOT got the same general response. I'm not asking anyone to accept the theory, just to offer valid arguments for or against the topic. Please don't resort to "Yeah, and Elvis Presley is Darth Vader" kind of things. 

[Nevets]

3 hours ago, TheLastWolf said:

I'm sure that guys who proposed R+L=J after the release of the first book, AGOT got the same general response. I'm not asking anyone to accept the theory, just to offer valid arguments for or against the topic. Please don't resort to "Yeah, and Elvis Presley is Darth Vader" kind of things. 

The problem is that, as I pointed out above, we have been given no textual reason to believe that there is anything secret about Podrick.  No unanswered questions, no inconsistent or contradictory stories.  He hasn't done anything inexplicable or contrary to his interests, nor has he been on the receiving end of such actions. 

The only mystery that has been presented is regarding the origin of his house sigil.  Given that he is from a minor branch of House Payne, I doubt that any revelation will be story-changing, at least as far as Podrick is concerned. 

He will most likely end up in the story of one or both Stark sisters.  His loyalty, persistence, cleverness and general good nature will likely play a part in his future story.  Secrets about his past won't, because there aren't any.

[Trigger Warning]

5 hours ago, TheLastWolf said:

I'm sure that guys who proposed R+L=J after the release of the first book, AGOT got the same general response. I'm not asking anyone to accept the theory, just to offer valid arguments for or against the topic. Please don't resort to "Yeah, and Elvis Presley is Darth Vader" kind of things. 

The difference being Jon's parentage is established as a mystery within the first few chapters. 

[Seams]

I don't think we can entirely rule out mysteries in Pod's background.

A key detail that raises suspicions is that Tywin spares his life. The hedge knight for whom Pod is a squire, Ser Lorimer, was hung for stealing a ham from Tywin Lannister's personal stores in the Lannister army's baggage train during fighting in the riverlands. Tywin decides to spare Pod's life "due to his family name", even though he ate some of the ham.

The closest similarity I can see is the sparing of the life of Dontos Hollard after the Defiance of Duskendale. Dontos was just a kid and had not played an active role in kidnapping the king, but Aerys was going to wipe out all houses connected to the Darklyns. Barristan Selmy asks that the life of young Dontos be spared so Aerys grants his request.

Dontos is eventually attached to Sansa and he helps her to escape the Lannisters.

Pod is attached to Tyrion. He attaches himself to Brienne (who is searching for Sansa) in the hope of finding Tyrion.

Brienne meets up with Pod in the ruins of House Hollard.

There are parallels between the destruction of House Darklyn and the destruction of House Reyne. Last Lord Tarbeck seems to be the child who survives the Reyne massacre (he was thrown in a well but may have survived). Tarbeck's mother and aunts become Silent Sisters; Pod's distant relative, Ser Ilyn, has his tongue cut out (after saying something that celebrates Tywin's power but is disrespectful toward Aerys).

GRRM includes in the series a number of babies and children who narrowly survive when they should have died or been killed. Many of those children have secret identities. (Jon Snow, Arya, Gendry and Robert's other bastards, fAegon, Gilly and Dalla's babies, probably Ser Duncan the Tall, etc.) It would not surprise me at all if Pod has a twist like that in his background.

I explored some of these elements a few months ago with a focus other than Pod, but this might provide some more context:

Another odd detail about Pod is the sty on his eye. A sty on an eye is an inflamed swelling of an infected gland but it is also a name for a little shelter where pigs can live. Pod eats Tywin's ham and gets away with it. Tyrion is not a knight and ordinarily would not have a squire but he becomes a mummer knight when he rides the pig in Penny's jousting act. Tyrion eats bacon (the book says he "crunches" it) on the morning that he discusses Bran's survival with Cersei, Jaime and their children at Winterfell. Bran is yet another boy who should have died but surprises everyone by living.

The pig symbolism in ASOIAF is vast, but Pod and Tyrion seem to be in the thick of it.

Oddly enough, I think the pig symbolism could link back to the coins on the Payne sigil. Through the magic of wordplay: coin / icon / oink. I may write about that on the Puns and Wordplay thread one of these days.

[Seams]

14 hours ago, TheLastWolf said:

Valyrian Steel is somehow getting linked with Pod theories

This may or may not be relevant.

In the previous post, I noted that Pod has a sty on his eye, which means his eye lid is inflamed.

When Qyburn is healing Jaime after his arm was amputated, he notes that Jaime has an inflamed cut near his eye.

I think of eye references as sword references because of the eye / Ice / eisen wordplay.

So, like Jaime, Pod has a flaming sword (inflamed eye).