Invading Essos.

[Helman Corbray]

Imagine that you became King/Queen in a stable period, when Westeros is united around the Iron Throne.

It's the beginning of a long summer and the land is wealthy and fertile, producing large revenue from trade.

There are no Dragons, though, only the usual fleets, retinues and levies from the Lords' lands. 

You are a bold monarch, that looks to yourself and desires to follow the footsteps of Aegon I. Your eyes turn to Essos. 

There is plenty possibilities of conquest to the east, and a successful war during campaign season might consolidate your power. 

How would you proceed?

[Lollygag]

I know this is a what if thread, but I'm going to ignore that.

You are a bold narcissistic megalomaniac monarch, that looks to yourself and desires to follow the footsteps of Aegon I. Your eyes turn to Essos. 

The "bold" monarch thing is right out of Cersei's playbook.

ASOS Tyrion VI

"Father, I am sorry," Cersei said, when the door was shut. "Joff has always been willful, I did warn you . . ."

"There is a long league's worth of difference between willful and stupid. 'A strong king acts boldly?' Who told him that?"

"Not me, I promise you," said Cersei. "Most like it was something he heard Robert say . . ."

"The part about you hiding under Casterly Rock does sound like Robert." Tyrion didn't want Lord Tywin forgetting that bit.

"Yes, I recall now," Cersei said, "Robert often told Joff that a king must be bold."

"And what were you telling him, pray? I did not fight a war to seat Robert the Second on the Iron Throne. You gave me to understand the boy cared nothing for his father."

"Why would he? Robert ignored him. He would have beat him if I'd allowed it. That brute you made me marry once hit the boy so hard he knocked out two of his baby teeth, over some mischief with a cat. I told him I'd kill him in his sleep if he ever did it again, and he never did, but sometimes he would say things . . ."

"It appears things needed to be said." Lord Tywin waved two fingers at her, a brusque dismissal. "Go."

[Helman Corbray]

32 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

You are a bold narcissistic megalomaniac monarch, that looks to yourself and desires to follow the footsteps of Aegon I. Your eyes turn to Essos. 

The "bold" monarch thing is right out of Cersei's playbook.

I disagree. Many would call Baelor Breakspear and Maekar "bold", because of their clever maneuvers and decisive victory, that saved their father's reign. Those well coordinated and "bold" moves were not even close to be narcissistic or anything bad. 

It is just Tywin's rules that make him feel that risking yourself in "bold" actions, is something stupid. He rides into the fray surrounded by his reserves after the battle lines are weakened and vulnerable (and probably a bunch of bodyguards as well). 

See, Robert being bold at the Battle of the Bells almost resulted in the killing of the Hand of the King, and also made he win two important victories in the beginning of the campaign. 

Well, in the end I just think being bold or clever do not matter. The secret is doing it with competence. 

[Lollygag]

Just now, Helman Corbray said:

I disagree. Many would call Baelor Breakspear and Maekar "bold", because of their clever maneuvers and decisive victory, that saved their father's reign. Those well coordinated and "bold" moves were not even close to be narcissistic or anything bad. 

It is just Tywin's rules that make him feel that risking yourself in "bold" actions, is something stupid. He rides into the fray surrounded by his reserves after the battle lines are weakened and vulnerable (and probably a bunch of bodyguards as well). 

See, Robert being bold at the Battle of the Bells almost resulted in the killing of the Hand of the King, and also made he win two important victories in the beginning of the campaign. 

Well, in the end I just think being bold or clever do not matter. The secret is doing it with competence. 

Agree with your last sentence. It's not that bold is in itself wrong. But if "bold" is all you've got going for you, then best rethink what you're doing. If you have something smart (or clever, well-coordinated or competent as you say here), you usually go with that first. Bold is scraping the bottom of the barrel when it comes to justifying an action. This was Tywin's point.

Your OP might be more compelling (and more fun?) if the what if was for some cause that wasn't just stupidly glorifying the ego which would result in the pointless death of so many. Maybe modify it?

Here, Barristan the Bold's boldest and most glorious moment begins to look stupid in hindsight.

The World of Ice and Fire - The Targaryen Kings: Aerys II

None will ever know for certain, thanks to the courage of Ser Barristan Selmy of the Kingsguard. Ser Barristan offered to enter the town in secret, find his way to the Dun Fort, and spirit the king to safety. Selmy had been known as Barristan the Bold since his youth, but this was a boldness that Tywin Lannister felt bordered on madness. Yet such was his respect for the prowess and courage of Ser Barristan that he gave him a day to attempt his plan before storming Duskendale.

A Dance with Dragons - The Queensguard

He had seen things that it pained him to recall, and more than once he wondered how much of the blood was on his own hands. If he had not gone into Duskendale to rescue Aerys from Lord Darklyn's dungeons, the king might well have died there as Tywin Lannister sacked the town. Then Prince Rhaegar would have ascended the Iron Throne, mayhaps to heal the realm. Duskendale had been his finest hour, yet the memory tasted bitter on his tongue.

 

In Bran's first chapter in AGOT, Ned (GRRM) advises to reader to think and have a purpose when killing.

AGOT Bran I

Bran thought about it. "Can a man still be brave if he's afraid?"

"That is the only time a man can be brave," his father told him. "Do you understand why I did it?"

"He was a wildling," Bran said. "They carry off women and sell them to the Others."

His lord father smiled. "Old Nan has been telling you stories again. In truth, the man was an oathbreaker, a deserter from the Night's Watch. No man is more dangerous. The deserter knows his life is forfeit if he is taken, so he will not flinch from any crime, no matter how vile. But you mistake me. The question was not why the man had to die, but why I must do it."

Bran had no answer for that. "King Robert has a headsman," he said, uncertainly.

"He does," his father admitted. "As did the Targaryen kings before him. Yet our way is the older way. The blood of the First Men still flows in the veins of the Starks, and we hold to the belief that the man who passes the sentence should swing the sword. If you would take a man's life, you owe it to him to look into his eyes and hear his final words. And if you cannot bear to do that, then perhaps the man does not deserve to die.

 

 

[Back door hodor]

Nah....without dragons no shot.....cant fight Bravos, no westerosi navy could breach the Titan and the Arsenal backed by the Bravosi fleet.

Pentos seems a tempting target but it is currently essentially a Bravosi protectorate, perhaps the city itself could be taken in a surprise attack but not actually held.

Any attack on either of the 3 daughters would unite them all against a common enemy, Westerosi armies would never get through the stepstones. 

[Loose Bolt]

Another thing is that Iron Throne do not have a standing army and without that it cannot occupy free cities. After all Essos do not have feudalism and so the way how IT rules Westeros would not work there.

[James Fenimore Cooper XXII]

It cannot be done.  Westeros is not a society of warriors.  Nor does it have the organization of the Romans.  Projecting power overseas over such a large portion of Essos is not possible.  The Freehold was able to do quite a lot but even they could not conquer all of Essos.  The best the IT can manage is to win battles against the Free Cities.  But they lack the numbers to occupy and control.

[Ser Ilyn's Tongue]

As it stands, Westerosi monarch couldn't achieve anything on Essos without first controlling the Stepstones. 

This should in theory be possible. Daemon, Oakenfist and Jaehaerys II all had military success there, though without any concerted effort / aim of long-term control.

'In World' a Stepstones campaign may have been a reasonable idea for Robert. An easy-ish foreign military campaign under a Baratheon flag could help unify the realm for king many consider a usurper. Added bonus is giving the Iron-Born and Stannis something to do to improve their prestige and status also.

If the Stepstones were achieved then your two obstacles to further conquest are the two major powers - Braavos and Volantis. Both strong enough to defend themselves and probably any city-states that join them in resistance to Westeros.

The one city-state that is close to the Stepstones and Westeros and is further away from both Volantis and Braavos than other cities is Tyrosh.  Originally a military outpost so potentially defensible if taken as well as a wealthy prize, Tyrosh would probably be place to aim for if you goal was conquest.

Though as stated above all of this would be very difficult and success certainly not a given.  

[rotting sea cow]

41 minutes ago, Ser Ilyn's Tongue said:

As it stands, Westerosi monarch couldn't achieve anything on Essos without first controlling the Stepstones. 

This should in theory be possible. Daemon, Oakenfist and Jaehaerys II all had military success there, though without any concerted effort / aim of long-term control.

'In World' a Stepstones campaign may have been a reasonable idea for Robert. An easy-ish foreign military campaign under a Baratheon flag could help unify the realm for king many consider a usurper. Added bonus is giving the Iron-Born and Stannis something to do to improve their prestige and status also.

If the Stepstones were achieved then your two obstacles to further conquest are the two major powers - Braavos and Volantis. Both strong enough to defend themselves and probably any city-states that join them in resistance to Westeros.

The one city-state that is close to the Stepstones and Westeros and is further away from both Volantis and Braavos than other cities is Tyrosh.  Originally a military outpost so potentially defensible if taken as well as a wealthy prize, Tyrosh would probably be place to aim for if you goal was conquest.

Though as stated above all of this would be very difficult and success certainly not a given.  

 

No. This has been discussed again and again. Westeros cannot conquest the Stepstones (let alone the Free Cities).  The reason is simple. To keep the Stepstones, you will need a large navy and army. These are expensive. You have two choices here. 1) These are financed from the crown resources drawing extra taxes from the rest of Westeros with all political implications 2) Finance them by fees from passage. The later will draw the ire from the Free Cities which will wave war against you. Braavos, the Three Sisters and Volantis. It's a war you cannot win. And for what? A few poor rocky islands. This is the reason why the pirates thrive there. Nobody really want to be in charge of these islands. The political implications are too big and the gain is too small.

 

 

 

[Ser Ilyn's Tongue]

Agree that the gains are small and the political implications probably not worth it.  At the very least there are many other things that a Westerosi monarch should be concerning themselves with.

But it's an answer to the OP and and although the Stepstones might not ultimately be worth the cost, it is feasible and would have some benefit (lack of piracy as you mentioned). 

Invading Tyrosh would likely not go well without some extraordinary circumstances. But geographically makes sense as opposed to other parts of Essos, if you were so inclined 

[Helman Corbray]

6 hours ago, Loose Bolt said:

Another thing is that Iron Throne do not have a standing army and without that it cannot occupy free cities. After all Essos do not have feudalism and so the way how IT rules Westeros would not work there.

But remember, in feudal systems the conquered land is always given to some Noble of the king's trust, and the loot/new income might be enough for the Lord to stabilize the region by hiring locals. The Kingdom of Jerusalém was something I would think impossible of being created, if it wasn't a real thing. I mean, french kings in the Levant...

[Loose Bolt]

5 hours ago, Helman Corbray said:

But remember, in feudal systems the conquered land is always given to some Noble of the king's trust, and the loot/new income might be enough for the Lord to stabilize the region by hiring locals. The Kingdom of Jerusalém was something I would think impossible of being created, if it wasn't a real thing. I mean, french kings in the Levant...

Braavos and Volantis are "republics" or their leaders are chosen via votes and so anyone who would try to bypass that process would need very strong standing security force just to stay in power or alive.

Another free cities seemed to have had experiences of rules by strong men. But sooner or later those were either assassinated, exiled or even turned to slave like happened to some members of Rogare family.

So Essos do not seem to tolerate "eternal" rule of one dynasty like Westerosi seem to do. Or it is very unlikely that ruling elites of free cities would tolerate that someone would try to do what Arryns, Lannisters or Starks did their own "kingdoms". Naturally major exception of that rule were dragonriders.

[Helman Corbray]

On 7/3/2020 at 2:29 PM, Loose Bolt said:

would need very strong standing security force just to stay in power or alive.

Yeah, I know. But people missed the point of the post. I asked HOW would they proceed, not if it was possible or not. History is full of dumb invasions and wars...