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Alyn Oakenfist

Why do so many people believe Aegon will be considered phony but Jon will be accepted as a Targ?

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Posted (edited)

Think about it, right now in world there is far more proof that Aegon is legit then there can ever be that R+L=J. Aegon has the look, he has several eye witnesses and the testimony of one of his fathers best friend had who presumably kept him since he was a boy. Jon Snow looks every bit a Stark and his only proof of being a Targ will be a cranogman and maybe a tree demon. Real convincing stuff there. Like I find it far more likely for the lords of Westeros to think of Aegon as legit then to accept R+L=J. What do you think?

Edited by Alyn Oakenfist

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What do I think?  I think you are right. 

Why do many people believe Aegon will be considered phony but Jon will be accepted as a Targ?  Wishful thinking on the part of those fans. 

So in order of which has the best credibility, from most to least, for being a Targaryen:

  1. Daenerys Targaryen
  2. Aegon Blackfyre Targaryen
  3. Gerold Darkstar Dayne
  4. Jon Snow Stark

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Much of Aegon's legitimacy with the nobility may depend on how invested they are in overthrowing the current regime.   Cersei won't have a lot of supporters when she regains power.  That said, there has been so much destruction in the name of ousting the Lannisters in Westeros that change is obviously and clearly desired by the majority of residents of Westeros.  Euron is coming with yet more destruction and he may be the only powerful ally Cersei finds.  Aegon's campaign offers untold reward for the restoration movement supporters and and overall return to rule the people noble and small understand.  The only family who will really suffer in Aegon's campaign will be Lannister/Baratheon.   As a rallying point Aegon offers the promise of at least ousting Cersei.   

Though I expect Aegon to gain a great deal of support it's entirely possible the real corruption of power in Westeros is the nobility, not ruler.  The Riverlands are in ruin though there are many among the named supporters still residing there.   Will Aegon offer some promise of relief from the wars that still rage throughout the center of Westeros?  Can he bring a steady supply of food to King's Landing?  Who aside from Randyl Tarly will he raise up higher?  What will people think of all those exiled lords and nobles who comprise the Golden Company retaking their lands someone else is making use of.   Aegon is change and I think despite all the ways this could go very badly for him, the people want change.  As to acceptance of the claim, Aegon is in the right place at the right time.   I almost think he could campaign as a Blackfyre and gain as much support because Westeros badly needs change at this juncture.  

Where Aegon is a political character Jon is a magical character.  Aegon will fast come to the fore of the story while Jon lingers in the north concerned with backburner magic.  Jon is essentially a non-player at this point and likely for a bit to come.   I imagine that when and if the time comes for Jon to claim all his heritage that Aegon will be a distant memory.   Everyone loves a hero and most everyone loves a savior.  Aegon may pave the way for Jon, never being exposed as a bad deal or pretender.  

 

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Posted (edited)

I think, that many out of citizens of 7K will believe that fAegon is really a son of Rhaegar Targaryen, they will welcome him as their saviour.

fAegon is GRRM's parallel to Biblical Antichrist, the false Messiah, from the Book of Revelation.

ACOK, Dany IV - "A cloth dragon swayed on poles amidst a cheering crowd. ... slayer of lies"

ACOK, Dany V - "A mummer's dragon, you said. What is a mummer's dragon, pray?" "A cloth dragon on poles," Dany explained. "Mummers use them in their follies, to give the heroes something to fight." "

Dany is the Woman Clothed with the Sun, her child, who was destined to rule all nations of the world, Rhaego, is a parallel to the Second Coming of Jesus; Varys is a parallel to Biblical Dragon/Satan, and fAegon, who is Varys' puppet, is the mummer's dragon, parallel to Antichrist/the Beast out of the Sea (there are two Sea Beasts, the one with many heads is fAegon and Golden Company, and a Scarlet Beast is GRRM's basis for Euron Greyjoy, while the Beast of the Earth/False Prophet is a basis for Petyr Baelish).

fAegon will become the King of 7K, and he will be popular and loved by people of Westeros. They will believe that he is a hero, who came to save them.

Then either he will be defeated by Euron, or after her arrival to Westeros, Dany will prove that fAegon is actually a Blackfyre, and all he wants is to get Iron Throne, not to save 7K's people.

And only after fAegon will be gone, Dany will find Jon, and he will become the third dragonrider, and the last head of the dragon, who will defeat the Others together with Dany and Rhaego.

Edited by Megorova

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2 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Think about it, right now in world there is far more proof that Aegon is legit then there can ever be that R+L=J. Aegon has the look, he has several eye witnesses and the testimony of one of his fathers best friend hat presumably kept him since he was a boy. Jon Snow looks every bit a Stark and his only proof of being a Targ will be a cranogman and maybe a tree demon. Real convincing stuff there. Like I find it far more likely for the lords of Westeros to think of Aegon as legit then to accept R+L=J. What do you think?

It is doubtful whether they actually believe this or not.  It is just that Jon has more fans in comparison to Aegon.  I agree with Annalee.  It is more of a desire from Jon's fans.  Which I am not. 

 

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1 hour ago, Megorova said:

Then either he will be defeated by Euron, or after her arrival to Westeros, Dany will prove that fAegon is actually a Blackfyre, and all he wants is to get Iron Throne, not to save 7K's people.

Great ways to hide the ugly truth. Dany will kill him. She will slay the lie not uncover it. She will just straight up murder him and forever be seen ad an usurper and kinslayer.

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1 hour ago, Megorova said:

Dany will prove that fAegon is actually a Blackfyre

How exactly? Besides straight up killing him and then making some half assed excuse about it to justify her usurping the Throne?

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Count me as one who hopes "Jon Snow"'s lineage will mean something. After all, even as the bastard of Lord Eddard Stark, he's always been given credit as a Stark.

But we really don't even know yet if Jon is alive. It would be just like George RR to have the Big Reveal of who the parents of "Lord Snow" actually were, after his body has been consigned to the flames. "Who knew he had the King's Blood in him all along?" Sardonic laughs all around.

I realize the fans have all decided that Young Griff/Aegon is either some waif off the streets of Pentos or a Blackfyre by-blow. From a political sense, it doesn't actually matter. He and his armies, with Lord Jon Connington, are re-taking the Stormlands and moving towards the Crownlands. Possession, as in "conquering", is 9/10 of the law. Just ask Queen-Again Cersei Lannister. If Young "Aegon" conquers King's Landing and presents himself as Aegon V returned from the grave, the smallfolk won't complain and probably a goodly number of lords will decide, Hey, it beats that Lannister beyotch. Much as Robert Baratheon gained the Iron Throne by conquest, and by the way, there were some Targaryen intermarriages generations ago, so call him a "dragon", Young Griff's conquest and assertion of dragonblood might be all it takes. Personally, I hope he's the real thing.

2 hours ago, Megorova said:

Dany is the Woman Clothed with the Sun, her child, who was destined to rule all nations of the world, Rhaego, is a parallel to the Second Coming of Jesus ... (etc)

I truly don't believe that George RR is that into religious and legendary symbolism, as far as driving the plot goes. His characters are fallible humans all, and he seems to love nothing more than to build up the reader's and the characters' hopes, only to pull the rug out from underneath. This whole "destiny" schtick and "prephesies" and ancient legends of heroes ... well, they may or may not drive the actions of the fallible human characters, but that's the only actual "influence" they have.

And good riddance to "Rhaego, the Stallion Who Rapes the World". I stand with Miri Maz Duur.

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22 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Great ways to hide the ugly truth. Dany will kill him. She will slay the lie not uncover it. She will just straight up murder him and forever be seen ad an usurper and kinslayer.

I think that slaying a lie isn't equal to killing/murdering whoever is lying. First out of three lies, is that Stannis is Azor Ahai, second is that fAegon is Rhaegar's son and a Targaryen, a third lie is that Jon is Ned Stark's bastard. Dany won't kill those three people, she will just reveal the truth about them. Stannis is not AA, because Dany, Jon and Rhaego are Azor Ahai; etc.

20 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

How exactly? Besides straight up killing him and then making some half assed excuse about it to justify her usurping the Throne?

I think that fAegon's parents are septa Lemore (real name - Jeyne Swann) and Barristan Selmy (his mother was Aenys Blackfyre's daughter). When Barristan will meet Lemore, he will recognize her, and he will figure out that fAegon is his son. Then either Barristan will try to kill Dany, or at least he will try to betray her (the third treason - a treason for love, love of a parent for his child), or Dany will somehow else find out that fAegon is a Blackfyre.

The other possible source of info is Quaithe/Shiera Seastar/Jeyne Swann's "septa", that was with her at the Kingswood, when they were attacked by the Kingswood Brotherhood, and then saved by Barristan Selmy. After which Jeyne tricked Barristan into drinking a love potion, prepared for her by Shiera, and then Jeyne concieved fAegon with Barristan. So Quaithe is aware that fAegon and Barristan are false dragon and old dragon, and Lemore is the Perfumed Seneschal. <- I think so because Egg's sister, Rhae, gave him a love potion; and in the same book Egg mentioned that he knows Shiera Seastar, who is a sorceress. So it's a logical assumption that that love potion, that Rhae gave to Aegon, was prepared by Shiera.

And GRRM wrote that story in Dunk&Egg, because it's a clue about similar events in the main series - Shiera Seastar prepared love potion, and Jeyne Swann seduced Barristan Selmy; Sibell Spicer prepared love potion, and Jeyne Westerling seduced Robb Stark. The purpose of the first seduction was to conceive a child, the purpose of the second was to force Robb to marry with Jeyne, in this case the pregnancy wasn't necessary, thus GRRM mentioned in the book, that Jeyne's mother gave her potions to prevent pregnancy.

Also, based on various clues from the World Book and Fire&Blood, I think that Johanna Swann, the Black Swan of Lys, was Larra Rogare's mother, and thus, she was a matriarch of Targaryens and Blackfyres, she was great-grandmother of King Daeron Targaryen and Daemon I Blackfyre. Larra Rogare and Serenei of Lys (Shiera Seastar's mother) is the same person, and she was a shadowbinder, same as her daughter/granddaughter (thru her son Aegon) - Shiera/Quaithe.

It was said in the World Book that Johanna was ruler of Lys in all but name, and similar thing was said about Rogares (that they were princes of Lys in all but name). Lysandro Rogare, Larra's father, owned an elite brothel, the Perfumed Garden, and it is known about Johanna, that she was a famous courtesan. It's obvious that Johanna and Lysandro knew each other - she worked in the Perfumed Garden, and this is the connection between Blackfyres and Swanns; Jeyne Swann, who is Aegon Blackfyre's mother, she is the Perfumed Seneschal.

Barristan will recognize Jeyne/Lemore, when he will meet her. Quaithe/Shiera also knowns about fAegon's true parentage. Also Varys and Illyrio know. I'm sure that Illyrio intentionally sent Barristan to Dany and not to fAegon, and didn't revealed to Barri information, that besides Dany, in Essos there's another claimant, who wants to get Iron Throne. Illyrio sent Barri to Dany, to have an opportunity for Barri to kill her, if it will become necessary, if Dany will become a threat to fAegon. So far Barri doesn't know, that he has a child, but when it will become necessary for a Blackfyre cause, this information will be revealed to him. And he will have to make a choice between his loyalty/Queen or his blood/family/son. Same problem that Jaime Lannister had to face, when King Aerys ordered him to kill Tywin.

So either Barristan will stay loyal to Dany, and he will reveal to her the truth about fAegon, or he will choose his son, and Dany will find out about fAegon's parentage from Quaithe/Shiera, if Barristan will betray Dany.

If Barristan Selmy or Shiera Seastar will publicly reveal that fAegon is a Blackfyre pretender, then people of 7K will belive them/him/her.

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19 minutes ago, zandru said:

I truly don't believe that George RR is that into religious and legendary symbolism

GRRM wrote this books prior ASOIAF:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuf_Voyaging#"Call_Him_Moses"

"Tuf introduces himself to Moses as God, in the guise of a pillar of fire. He afflicts the followers of Moses with the Biblical plagues of legend, but these are widespread planetary ecological assaults instead of Moses' fraudulent localized afflictions.

After two such attacks, Tuf invites Moses aboard the Ark and shows him simulations of the increasingly horrible plagues that he could further inflict upon Moses and his followers. Moses, frightened, gives up his claim on the arcology's population, allowing them to escape his nasty, brutish religious fanaticism and return to the comforts of modern civilization."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Way_of_Cross_and_Dragon

"Damien Har Veris — a priest skilled in resolving heretical disputes efficiently, although now spiritually exhausted — is sent by his alien archbishop as Knight Inquisitor to deal with a particular sect that has made a saint of Judas Iscariot.

The sect follows a religious text, The Way of Cross and Dragon, that radically revises the life of Iscariot and his place in Christianity. The text describes how, born of a prostitute, Iscariot mastered the dark arts to become a tamer of dragons and the ruler of a great empire. After torturing and maiming Christ, Iscariot repented and relinquished his empire to become the penitent Legs of Christ, the first and best-beloved of the Twelve Apostles. Returning from proselytizing to find Christ crucified, an enraged Iscariot then destroyed the perpetrating empire and strangled St. Peter for renouncing Christ, only to discover, too late, Christ's Resurrection. Rejecting Judas' violence, Christ restored St. Peter to life and gave him the keys of the kingdom. St. Peter then suppressed the truth about Judas, vilifying his name and exploits. Seeking redemption for his wrath, Iscariot became the thousand-year-old Wandering Jew, before finally rejoining Christ in the Kingdom of God."

 

And there's a lot of religious symbols in ASOIAF. A LOT. So GRRM is that into religious symbolism.

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I don't buy into R + L = J.  Jon does not look anything like a Targaryen because he is not. 

Let us pretend it is for the sake of this topic.  Well, Aegon looks the part.  He might have Blackfyre in his possession.  Yes.  He will have a much easier time convincing people to think he is a Targaryen.  The only person who does not have to prove anything is Daenerys.  The dragons prove her identity. 

Now, about those three lies.  They are all about Azor Ahai.  Stannis being Azor Ahai is the first lie.  Daenerys is Azor Ahai.  Aegon is a Blackfyre and therefore only semi-Targaryen.  He comes from a legitimized bastard line.  Aegon will present himself as the prince who was promised, Azor Ahai.  This lie will again be slain.  Jon will pretend to be Azor Ahai.  Probably goaded to do so by Mellisandre.  This will again be proven wrong. 

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6 minutes ago, Megorova said:

And there's a lot of religious symbols in ASOIAF. A LOT. So GRRM is that into religious symbolism.

But I added "insofar as driving the plot."

Vonevar Tuf is just manipulating a credulous near-savage; he's not actually Jehovah God. And Tuf has already read the book; he knows how it comes out and so he plays a part. Nothing supernatural in that.

St. Judas the Dragontamer. You do understand that this was a heresy, not a prophesy fulfilled?

Of course GRRM uses allusions to religions and their symbols. Religion has been part of the human DNA (probably literally) for many millenia. People believe in higher powers like they believe in food. If you write about people, it makes sense to write about their spiritual beliefs (and loss of faith in them.)

Like I tried to say, some characters may consider themselves to be legendary figures or prophesied saviors. Some may be pegged as such by others. But it isn't actually fore-ordained. And the characters will learn this, to their cost.

That's my opinion; yours differs.

 

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I think the question has always seemed to be Dany's position on all of this, from the posts I read on this forum about how people think about it, it always made me understand that fans believe that most people in the kingdom would accept Aegon, but Dany will not believe that he is her nephew, on the other hand people seem to believe that she will fallin with Jon Snow and approve of him as her brother's son, but the more I think of the men Dany is attracted, the less I buy that idea.

I also don't buy Jon becoming king at any point in the books, I think his fatherhood will be used only as a justification for him to have a dragon and fight the Others with Dany, adding nothing else. So it wouldn't need to be approved by anyone, only targaryens ride dragons, people will know. 

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Posted (edited)

By the time we learn of Jon's parentage I think Dany - who will be a different person from Dany in Book 1, Chapter 1 - will only be thinking about how these two people affect her politically. I dont see her welcoming her long-lost family because politics will come into play to sideline her. Not to mention that, Jon and fAegon (supposedly) have non-Targaryen mothers; it would be easy for her to fall back on her feeling superior because she is "pure blood." If she takes that view she'll be sounding like her dad.

Edited by Rose of Red Lake

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You are mixing things up. Many think AeGriff is fake and Jon is legit. But many nobles and small folk will probably accept AeGriff as Rhaegar's dead son long before anyone learns anything about Jon's ancestry, if anyone outside Jon and a few others ever actually learn about Jon's ancestry at all

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Posted (edited)
10 hours ago, Megorova said:

Then either Barristan will try to kill Dany, or at least he will try to betray her (the third treason - a treason for love, love of a parent for his child),

Or he'll choose Honor and Duty over blood. He's not Jaime.

First treason for blood - Mirri Maaz duur

Second treason for gold - brown Ben Plumm

I believe third was Jorah and his love was for returning home..... and love of Dany also made him betray Varys by saving her. 

Edited by TheLastWolf

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Posted (edited)
16 hours ago, Annalee said:

What do I think?  I think you are right. 

Why do many people believe Aegon will be considered phony but Jon will be accepted as a Targ?  Wishful thinking on the part of those fans. 

So in order of which has the best credibility, from most to least, for being a Targaryen:

  1. Daenerys Targaryen
  2. Aegon Blackfyre Targaryen
  3. Gerold Darkstar Dayne
  4. Jon Snow Stark

Wishful thinking on the part of those who like Jon Snow.  Young Griff will win this contest between he and Jon unless George is partial to Jon. 

All that said, I think both lads are fake.  Young Griff = young grifter.  He comes from the Blackfyre branch. 

Jon = Brandon Stark + Lyanna Stark.

Edited by Allardyce

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