Which fans are more wishful thinking, Dany or Jon?

[TheLastWolf]

8 hours ago, Mon ami said:

The way he dragged the NW into a war with the Boltons to get his sister out of a bad marriage, that was him making decisions for the entire NW without consulting with the other officers.

When did that happen? Read the letter again. Bolton vows to kill the Lord Commander of the NW if he doesn't accept his demands, which are outrageous and which even craven Bowen Marsh would have refused. And Jon did not ask any one else to come with him, only the wildling volunteers 

[BalerionTheCat]

10 hours ago, Mon ami said:

Dany is not really totalitarian.  Westeros and its High Lords are the totalitarians

Oh yes, that good old Janos again. Never far in praises from Bowen and noble Ramsay. All Cersei arse lickers.

All Westeros nobility is totalitarian. Asking oaths of obedience under threat of death is not totalitarian? And expecting generation after generation to follow these oaths? And Dany wants the top of the pyramid. By Fire and Blood, whatever the cost.

[Miss_Saffron]

On 7/5/2020 at 11:26 PM, Alyn Oakenfist said:

which fans are more wishful thinking, Jon or Dany fans?

Both, really.

That's not to say that all of Dany or Jon's fans are wishful thinkers - there's a fair share of people, who appreciate full complexity of those characters with all the flaws, mistakes and troubling behaviors both Jon and Dany have displayed in the books. 

But there's also a fair share of fans, who bought completly into this Azor Ahai/Prince That Was Promised Chosen One Rightful Heir Returns narrative. They wish GRRM will play it straight with their fave (95% of the time either Dany or Jon) as the prophesized saviour, who defeats the WW, puts nobles in place and will get the throne and possibly a HEA marriage in the end. And this is obviously a wishful thinking. 

ASOIAF is not the kind of story in which such classic/trite tropes are played straight. GRRM builds Dany and Jon (or Stannis to a lesser extent) as this almost messianic figures to meaningfully subvert the Chosen One archetype, not to reinforce it. 

[Hodor the Articulate]

Alright, here's my take. You have a extremes of the Dany fandom who thinks she is Beyonce the ultimate queen and savior of the world and controls all the dragons... and the other characters can like, tag along as her side-kicks or something. The extremes of the Jon fandom thinks he is the three-headed dragon; the ultimate hero, who will mount Drogon (because he is the biggest, you see) and domestic violence his way into getting a shiny mystical sword. He will rule his kingdom wisely with Val, Queen of cliche fantasy babes (slender yet busty, never overshadows her man!)

Then you have stans of other characters, who wish their loser favs were as important as Jon and Dany.

[Eltharion21]

Daenerys fans in general , though they were brought down by a notch with that horrendous tv show, so they had reigned their expectations a bit.

Too bad for thousands of little Khaleesi's going to legally change their name probably.

Jon's fans still have various expectations of  becoming Aragorn of Westeros, Night's King, Lord of Winterfell, Azor Ahai or mate to any person from  Daenerys, Val, Satin, Melisandre, Arya or Sansa. 

[Eltharion21]

19 hours ago, Mithras said:

Stannis. Just look at the Night Lamp and you will see.

Says the guy who has theory about Samwell Tarly killing Euron with arrow through the eye.

[kissdbyfire]

2 hours ago, Eltharion21 said:

Daenerys fans in general , though they were brought down by a notch with that horrendous tv show, so they had reigned their expectations a bit.

I don’t know... I suppose I see it differently. I don’t think the top “wishful thinkers” are necessarily Dany fans but rather the Stark haters. And sure, there’s an intersection there, but what really weighs heavy on the wishful thinking scale is the latter not the former imo. For example, readers who dismiss the text completely and keep repeating the same idiotic “theories” that are based on nothing but their Stark hate based wishful thinking. And I’m obviously not talking about readers who dislike Jon and/or the Starks, which is totally fine. I’m talking specifically about those readers who cling to ideas that have zero textual support, and are completely absurd and very obviously never gonna happen, just b/c they hate a character/house. 

[Miss_Saffron]

2 hours ago, Eltharion21 said:

Daenerys fans in general , though they were brought down by a notch with that horrendous tv show, so they had reigned their expectations a bit.

Some of them were brought down and some of them were solidified in their believes by rejecting everything tv show did as D&D's fanfic crap. On this forum alone there are plenty of posts expressing various iterations of 'when Dany will land in Westeros, she will be hailed as a saviour from White Walkers, fAegon's incompetence and Cersei/Euron unholly alliance and she'll mow all of them down on her way to the throne but she will do no wrong ever, so nobody would have reasons to oppose her'. 

[GoldenGail3]

Jon Snow stans

[Willam Stark]

19 hours ago, Mon ami said:

Or maybe, very hopefully, she will kill him.  

Ok we get it you hate Jon, you can stop whining around now.

[Mithras]

3 hours ago, Eltharion21 said:

Says the guy who has theory about Samwell Tarly killing Euron with arrow through the eye.

Still less of a stretch than Stannis waving his burning dick to blind the Freys and let them ride into the frozen lake.

[Lord Lannister]

Are Dany's or Jon's fans too optimistic?

Yes.

[Bloodraven’s Spider]

Dany fans are the biggest wenches. They will never even consider the slightest thought that she will die.

The dumb wench will not be alive by the end of the story.

[The Commentator]

Jon's fans have more of this wishful thinking.  To the point where some of them are attempting to rewrite the story.  

[Many-Faced Votary]

Jon and Dany are the main Song of Ice and Fire, and both are fundamentally good people who do a vast amount of good with restraint relative to their capacity that very few others would even consider, never mind pursue, much less accomplish. They are clearly the main protagonists -- and yes, heroes -- of the series; wherever their journeys end and through whatever context this occurs, it will suit their respective arcs, which arcs are not coincidentally carefully paralleled throughout the series, especially in A Dance with Dragons. I find any hatred of the two bemusing; one can certainly have their opinions, and choose not to be particularly enamored of them or even opt to dislike them to a reasonable extent, but I think it is intrinsically unsound to paint them as selfish or especially morally grey, when the text repeatedly shows otherwise. This is particularly true when both are already complete subversions of villain origin stories, Dany in particular: they consistently make the right (heroic) choices each time a litmus test to that end occurs.

Certainly, Jon and Dany are flawed characters, as is true of everyone else in the series because Mr. Martin writes most everyone (and certainly all the PoV characters) in such a way that makes them realistic, understandable, and complex. I think it is important not to disregard their shortcomings and struggles, but it is equally important not to overlook their virtues, and even more so not to dismiss what they have done and precisely how they have done it. No one, not even Brienne, is wholly good; no one, not even Varys, is infallible. It is nonsensical to expect such traits from these characters, which seems to me the root of most denigrations.

Consequently, I find that it is the so-called haters of characters, and especially those of Dany and Jon, who most often and prominently engage in wishful thinking.

Some of the Jon detractors (or those of Starks in general?) are particularly obsessive and overly vocal; I would thus be inclined to agree with @kissdbyfire's verdict. However, my experience with the fandom has led me to conclude that they largely began to vocalize their thoughts after "Mad Queen Dany" theories and assumptions began to be considered factual by much of the fandom. Because many of these people happen to be rather immoderate Dany fans, it feels more reactionary to me.

On the other hand, ridiculous distortions of the text and applications of double standards with respect to in-universe conduct in order to misinterpret -- willfully or otherwise -- and generally vilify Dany's character and actions (or those of Targaryens in general?) is much more common through the fandom as a whole, even among otherwise reasonable and fairly careful readers. This is partly because of how deep the Mad Queen discourse seems to run these days, and partly due to -- frankly -- sexism. To be clear, I do not believe that most readers are even aware of how their lens inform their understanding of Daenerys; but the general unfair and manifestly disproportionate treatment of female characters, especially Dany and Cat, is very discernible and very telling. Her portrayal in the abomination certainly didn't help, in any case.

Ultimately, I would conclude that Dany haters demonstrate the most wishful thinking, but at some point the comparison hardly matters. Jon will not be the new Night's King or "betray humanity" (his story thus far has been literally the exact opposite), and Dany will not be Her Satanic Majesty or subject Westeros to "tyranny" (incidentally, in a feudal setting this would entail nothing other than diminishing the power of the lords and/or strengthening the rights of the smallfolk, which would be a good thing regardless).

[The Commentator]

21 hours ago, Mon ami said:

Or maybe, very hopefully, she will kill him.  

Ha ha, a dedicated crannogman got to him first.    For the watch.

[Miss_Saffron]

1 hour ago, Many-Faced Votary said:

Consequently, I find that it is the so-called haters of characters, and especially those of Dany and Jon, who most often and prominently engage in wishful thinking.

That's an interesting point you're making. 

Certainly, the haters are very vocal and persistent in the fandom. But also, I rarely see these haters engaging purely in dragging their un-favorite characters through the mud without also pushing their fave as the solution to all the supposed ills wrought by the character they hate. Case in point:

1 hour ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

22 hours ago, Mon ami said:

Or maybe, very hopefully, she will kill him.  

Ha ha, a dedicated crannogman got to him first.    For the watch.

So it's very often hard to separate Dany-stans from Jon-haters and vice versa. And it's hard to judge if wishful thinking in such cases comes from the place of contempt for a character they don't support or the place of admiration for the characters they do. 

[kissdbyfire]

17 minutes ago, Miss_Saffron said:

That's an interesting point you're making. 

Certainly, the haters are very vocal and persistent in the fandom. But also, I rarely see these haters engaging purely in dragging their un-favorite characters through the mud without also pushing their fave as the solution to all the supposed ills wrought by the character they hate. Case in point:

The problem is not disliking a character... but allowing hatred for a character or house to blind you to the point that you’re not reading Martin’s story anymore, but your own fan fic that’s based on nothing but your hatred. Pretty pointless, imo, but more importantly it’s disrespectful b/c it completely dismisses the story Martin is so brilliantly creating just b/c you hate a character. 

17 minutes ago, Miss_Saffron said:

So it's very often hard to separate Dany-stans from Jon-haters and vice versa. And it's hard to judge if wishful thinking in such cases comes from the place of contempt for a character they don't support or the place of admiration for the characters they do. 

I don’t agree here... there are many, many Dany fans who aren’t Stark haters, and vice versa. There’s all sorts, really, just as it should be; readers who love Dany and dislike Jon/the Starks, readers who love Dany and like Jon/the Starks, etc. And even if someone loves one and even hates the other... well, ok, as long as the text is not ignored, as we so often see a very loud but thankfully small group do. To the point where most threads, regardless of its topic, turns into a Jon/Stark bashing hate thread usually within 20 posts or so. 

[Miss_Saffron]

2 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

I don’t agree here... there are many, many Dany fans who aren’t Stark haters, and vice versa.

For sure. I wasn't implying that all (or even most) of Dany's fans hate Jon by default (or vice versa - that Jon's fans must hate Dany). 

What I meant was that in those (rare) cases where hate for one character is intertwined with support for another, it's often hard to say what's egg and what's chicken in this situation. Is it the hate for a particular character that causes some to misread Martin's text and ignore the story as it is in favor of their 'hate-fics'? Or is it support for another character, that causes them to twist every possible rival to that character into a caricature that bears no resemblance to canon portrayal?

I fully agree that likes and dislikes of particular characters aren't a problem, as long as they don't cause people to ignore entire swaths of text in order to force an 'interpretation' of a character, that's based on their feeling and prejudices instead of their actual behavior in-story. 

[Darth Sidious]

On 7/6/2020 at 6:21 AM, Allardyce said:

I am a Daenerys fan who also hate Jon.  And I do not want them to even meet.  Let Jon just live his life as a wolf from now on.  

Same here.  I would love for Daenerys to go to Asshai instead.  She can always wait until Spring to make her return to Westeros.  

On 7/6/2020 at 5:55 PM, Mon ami said:

Or maybe, very hopefully, she will kill him.  

Dany is not really totalitarian.  Westeros and its High Lords are the totalitarians.  Barbrey Dustin was not keen on sending men to their deaths to fight a useless war for the Starks, yet she did out of fear.  That is an example of the Starks practicing totalitarianism.  And Jon Snow, the way he managed the infractions of two men under his command, Janos and Mance, was behaving like the totalitarian that he was.  And a tyrant for that matter.  His decision-making at the wall with regards to the Wildlings is totalitarianism.  The way he dragged the NW into a war with the Boltons to get his sister out of a bad marriage, that was him making decisions for the entire NW without consulting with the other officers.

Agree