Which fans are more wishful thinking, Dany or Jon?

[kissdbyfire]

16 minutes ago, Miss_Saffron said:

For sure. I wasn't implying that all (or even most) of Dany's fans hate Jon by default (or vice versa - that Jon's fans must hate Dany). 

I know you weren’t, apologies if it came across wrong. 

16 minutes ago, Miss_Saffron said:

What I meant was that in those (rare) cases where hate for one character is intertwined with support for another, it's often hard to say what's egg and what's chicken in this situation. Is it the hate for a particular character that causes some to misread Martin's text and ignore the story as it is in favor of their 'hate-fics'? Or is it support for another character, that causes them to twist every possible rival to that character into a caricature that bears no resemblance to canon portrayal?

Yeah, I got that. I think I didn’t make myself clear. What I tried to say - and failed - is that the blind hatred some readers have for certain characters is silly because it dismisses the actual story... And IMO it doesn’t even matter if it’s b/c someone hates one character or loves another. 

16 minutes ago, Miss_Saffron said:

I fully agree that likes and dislikes of particular characters aren't a problem, as long as they don't cause people to ignore entire swaths of text in order to force an 'interpretation' of a character, that's based on their feeling and prejudices instead of their actual behavior in-story. 

Fully agree. 

[Darth Sidious]

I will say this.  And this is sure to offend some of you.  But since some of you have already started making personal attacks  . . . .

There is a lot more immaturity and antisocial behavior coming from the Dany haters.  Just read some of the posts from the Dany haters on this forum and they appear to have been written by immature middle-schoolers with antisocial tendencies.  Dany fans come across as more mature and more intelligent.  

[Miss_Saffron]

@kissdbyfire, so we agree basically on everything. I also don't think that in the grand scheme of things it matters what sentiment (like or dislike) blinds some of the fans. It's just something I'm personally curious about, because I could kinda understand (not excuse) supporting a fave character so strongly, that you wan't dismiss any validity of their potential competition, but I don't get hate for hate's sake. 

[Khal Rhaego Targaryen]

On 7/6/2020 at 6:55 PM, Mon ami said:

Or maybe, very hopefully, she will kill him.  

Dany is not really totalitarian.  Westeros and its High Lords are the totalitarians.  Barbrey Dustin was not keen on sending men to their deaths to fight a useless war for the Starks, yet she did out of fear.  That is an example of the Starks practicing totalitarianism.  And Jon Snow, the way he managed the infractions of two men under his command, Janos and Mance, was behaving like the totalitarian that he was.  And a tyrant for that matter.  His decision-making at the wall with regards to the Wildlings is totalitarianism.  The way he dragged the NW into a war with the Boltons to get his sister out of a bad marriage, that was him making decisions for the entire NW without consulting with the other officers.

[Khal Rhaego Targaryen]

4 hours ago, Prince Rhaego's Soul said:

I will say this.  And this is sure to offend some of you.  But since some of you have already started making personal attacks  . . . .

There is a lot more immaturity and antisocial behavior coming from the Dany haters.  Just read some of the posts from the Dany haters on this forum and they appear to have been written by immature middle-schoolers with antisocial tendencies.  Dany fans come across as more mature and more intelligent.  

Precisely.

[SeanF]

12 hours ago, Many-Faced Votary said:

Jon and Dany are the main Song of Ice and Fire, and both are fundamentally good people who do a vast amount of good with restraint relative to their capacity that very few others would even consider, never mind pursue, much less accomplish. They are clearly the main protagonists -- and yes, heroes -- of the series; wherever their journeys end and through whatever context this occurs, it will suit their respective arcs, which arcs are not coincidentally carefully paralleled throughout the series, especially in A Dance with Dragons. I find any hatred of the two bemusing; one can certainly have their opinions, and choose not to be particularly enamored of them or even opt to dislike them to a reasonable extent, but I think it is intrinsically unsound to paint them as selfish or especially morally grey, when the text repeatedly shows otherwise. This is particularly true when both are already complete subversions of villain origin stories, Dany in particular: they consistently make the right (heroic) choices each time a litmus test to that end occurs.

Certainly, Jon and Dany are flawed characters, as is true of everyone else in the series because Mr. Martin writes most everyone (and certainly all the PoV characters) in such a way that makes them realistic, understandable, and complex. I think it is important not to disregard their shortcomings and struggles, but it is equally important not to overlook their virtues, and even more so not to dismiss what they have done and precisely how they have done it. No one, not even Brienne, is wholly good; no one, not even Varys, is infallible. It is nonsensical to expect such traits from these characters, which seems to me the root of most denigrations.

Consequently, I find that it is the so-called haters of characters, and especially those of Dany and Jon, who most often and prominently engage in wishful thinking.

Some of the Jon detractors (or those of Starks in general?) are particularly obsessive and overly vocal; I would thus be inclined to agree with @kissdbyfire's verdict. However, my experience with the fandom has led me to conclude that they largely began to vocalize their thoughts after "Mad Queen Dany" theories and assumptions began to be considered factual by much of the fandom. Because many of these people happen to be rather immoderate Dany fans, it feels more reactionary to me.

On the other hand, ridiculous distortions of the text and applications of double standards with respect to in-universe conduct in order to misinterpret -- willfully or otherwise -- and generally vilify Dany's character and actions (or those of Targaryens in general?) is much more common through the fandom as a whole, even among otherwise reasonable and fairly careful readers. This is partly because of how deep the Mad Queen discourse seems to run these days, and partly due to -- frankly -- sexism. To be clear, I do not believe that most readers are even aware of how their lens inform their understanding of Daenerys; but the general unfair and manifestly disproportionate treatment of female characters, especially Dany and Cat, is very discernible and very telling. Her portrayal in the abomination certainly didn't help, in any case.

Ultimately, I would conclude that Dany haters demonstrate the most wishful thinking, but at some point the comparison hardly matters. Jon will not be the new Night's King or "betray humanity" (his story thus far has been literally the exact opposite), and Dany will not be Her Satanic Majesty or subject Westeros to "tyranny" (incidentally, in a feudal setting this would entail nothing other than diminishing the power of the lords and/or strengthening the rights of the smallfolk, which would be a good thing regardless).

Amen to all of that.  It's probably wishful thinking to believe that Jon and Daenerys will marry, have children, and survive the series, but it's extremely wishful thinking to consider that either of them will finish up as the Big Bad. The only honest interpretation of the text is that each character is heroic, but flawed, as heroic human beings are, IMHO.  Neither is a superhero, because superheroes don't actually exist in real life.

[SeanF]

10 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

The problem is not disliking a character... but allowing hatred for a character or house to blind you to the point that you’re not reading Martin’s story anymore, but your own fan fic that’s based on nothing but your hatred. Pretty pointless, imo, but more importantly it’s disrespectful b/c it completely dismisses the story Martin is so brilliantly creating just b/c you hate a character. 

I don’t agree here... there are many, many Dany fans who aren’t Stark haters, and vice versa. There’s all sorts, really, just as it should be; readers who love Dany and dislike Jon/the Starks, readers who love Dany and like Jon/the Starks, etc. And even if someone loves one and even hates the other... well, ok, as long as the text is not ignored, as we so often see a very loud but thankfully small group do. To the point where most threads, regardless of its topic, turns into a Jon/Stark bashing hate thread usually within 20 posts or so. 

I agree.  I support both Dany and the Starks.  Even if there does come a point in the tale where they come into political conflict, I expect Martin would present them all sympathetically.  Hating a character is just weird, unless that character is actually written to be hateful.  None of Dany, Jon, Sansa, Arya, or Bran is written to be hateful.

When I first joined this site, in 2011, it was dominated by people who detested Daenerys, and it took me some while before I realised just how one-sided their analysis was.

[Eltharion21]

17 hours ago, Mithras said:

Still less of a stretch than Stannis waving his burning dick to blind the Freys and let them ride into the frozen lake.

That would be a sight to see. 

Anyway your picturesque description reminds me of this small gem:

Quote

 

GRRM : So then Samwell Tarly sees the army approaching, and his wiener is about this big. [about 18 inches, by his estimate. Butters is losing patience as Scott fades] He knows that Stannis Baratheon's wiener is probably shriveled from the cold. Samwell has to rally his men, so what does he do? He takes out his wiener [unzips his pants and demonstrates his story] and he dangles it around for all his men to see. [shakes his hips and pretends his wiener is a bell]

Scott: AAAH! [turns away for a moment]

Butters: OOAH! Uh, sir, you said pizzas were coming!

GRRM: Yeah yeah, they're on their way. They're still coming. So Samwell's wiener goes [shakes his hips around as if his wiener were a bell and makes sounds for it]

Butters: But you said they were on their way like three hours ago! [Scott had said he needs to eat every two hours]

Scott: If I don't get pizza soon, I'm goin' to pass out.

GRRM: [zips up] Don't worry. They're coming. Pizzas are on their way. They're gonna be amazing. [picks up where he was interrupted] Now, John Snow finally faces Jaime Lannister, and this guy's wiener is, you know, huge, right? So it's not goin' to be easy.

Scott: Ehhh...

 

 

[Eltharion21]

18 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

I don’t know... I suppose I see it differently. I don’t think the top “wishful thinkers” are necessarily Dany fans but rather the Stark haters. And sure, there’s an intersection there, but what really weighs heavy on the wishful thinking scale is the latter not the former imo. For example, readers who dismiss the text completely and keep repeating the same idiotic “theories” that are based on nothing but their Stark hate based wishful thinking. And I’m obviously not talking about readers who dislike Jon and/or the Starks, which is totally fine. I’m talking specifically about those readers who cling to ideas that have zero textual support, and are completely absurd and very obviously never gonna happen, just b/c they hate a character/house. 

Lot of Tv show fans saw Daenerys as symbol of modern racial injustice emancipation, Tv show writers have given her "Breaking the Wheel" speech, presumably intent on dissolving feudal system, which had no sense especially in her final dialogue with Jon Snow. Her invasion of Westeros during season 6 was peak of popularity, yet they ignored consequences of her actions in leaving Meeren to sell-sword Daario or having invasion army made of Dothraki, Unsulied, Ironborn and Dornish.

I try not to hate either character, Daenerys or Jon Snow have both potential to do good and bad things, though I don't consider them solution to every problem or main characters, but important parts of  the song. 

 

[Eltharion21]

Double post delete.

[BalerionTheCat]

4 hours ago, SeanF said:

I agree.  I support both Dany and the Starks.  Even if there does come a point in the tale where they come into political conflict, I expect Martin would present them all sympathetically.  Hating a character is just weird, unless that character is actually written to be hateful.  None of Dany, Jon, Sansa, Arya, or Bran is written to be hateful.

When I first joined this site, in 2011, it was dominated by people who detested Daenerys, and it took me some while before I realised just how one-sided their analysis was.

It was what I thought in the beginning. And certainly while completely different in their experiences, Jon and Dany are much the same. If Dany had been raised by Ned Stark. With many people putting her so low, never expecting anything good from a bastard. And Jon had been raised by his bitter, resentful, abusive older brother. A prince with ambitions of recovering his lost birthright. Then I would expect their arcs reversed. They are the same stuff, but life made them different.

Dany is a good person. At start. But she is lost and goes deeper and deeper in shit. She is surrounded by wrong people, or likely to be: dothrakis, ironborns (Victarion or Euron, you chose), red priests, sellswords of any kind, the Green Grace and the Shavepate Her odds are impossibly hard. She dreams of peace, planting trees and a red door. But she does all sorts of hurts because of one personal ambition. She doesn't intend. But the consequences are there. And the price will have to be paid.

I thought someone would go to her help at some point. And clean up the slate. Like in many stories, things are bad and then unexpectedly, miraculously improve. But I don't think it's GRRM style. When you make an error, you pay the price. You die. Ask Ned or Robb or Renly. Plenty of others. I don't know, but Meereen was a really bad turn for her.

And I deeply, deeply believe GRRM is against war when other solutions exists. The hundreds of pages of TWoIaF and F&B are not there to glorify war. Not for me anyway. Mance did a war to cross the Wall. It was not for conquest, only to save his people from the Others. But even this one failed. However the peaceful solution was possible only after Jon became LC. So hard to accept for the NW it cost his life (temporarily).

[Alyn Oakenfist]

2 hours ago, BalerionTheCat said:

And I deeply, deeply believe GRRM is against war when other solutions exists. The hundreds of pages of TWoIaF and F&B are not there to glorify war. Not for me anyway. Mance did a war to cross the Wall. It was not for conquest, only to save his people from the Others.

As you said though, Mance had other solutions. He only tried to negotiate after the NW bled him dry. He tried to save his people without making a single attempt to reach a diplomatic solution with the NW

[sweetsunray]

54 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

As you said though, Mance had other solutions. He only tried to negotiate after the NW bled him dry. He tried to save his people without making a single attempt to reach a diplomatic solution with the NW

No, not really... Mance offered a diplomatic solution, while he believed the NW was too few. Jon wonders why, because Mance has not lost many people yet. Mance is convinced he could win, and he will outnumber the NW. Both Jon and Mance agree his people didn't bleed at the hands of the NW. The losses of the Free Folk are mostly due to the Others.

 

Quote

 

The skinchanger was grey-faced, round-shouldered, and bald, a mouse of a man with a wolfling's eyes. "Once a horse is broken to the saddle, any man can mount him," he said in a soft voice. "Once a beast's been joined to a man, any skinchanger can slip inside and ride him. Orell was withering inside his feathers, so I took the eagle for my own. But the joining works both ways, warg. Orell lives inside me now, whispering how much he hates you. And I can soar above the Wall, and see with eagle eyes."

"So we know," said Mance. "We know how few you were, when you stopped the turtle. We know how many came from Eastwatch. We know how your supplies have dwindled. Pitch, oil, arrows, spears. Even your stair is gone, and that cage can only lift so many. We know. And now you know we know." [...] Mance ran a hand along the curve of the great horn. "No man goes hunting with only one arrow in his quiver," he said. "I had hoped that Styr and Jarl would take your brothers unawares, and open the gate for us. I drew your garrison away with feints and raids and secondary attacks. Bowen Marsh swallowed that lure as I knew he would, but your band of cripples and orphans proved to be more stubborn than anticipated. Don't think you've stopped us, though. The truth is, you are too few and we are too many. I could continue the attack here and still send ten thousand men to cross the Bay of Seals on rafts and take Eastwatch from the rear. I could storm the Shadow Tower too, I know the approaches as well as any man alive. I could send men and mammoths to dig out the gates at the castles you've abandoned, all of them at once."

"Why don't you, then?" Jon could have drawn Longclaw then, but he wanted to hear what the wildling had to say.

"Blood," said Mance Rayder. "I'd win in the end, yes, but you'd bleed me, and my people have bled enough."

"Your losses haven't been that heavy."

"Not at your hands." Mance studied Jon's face. "You saw the Fist of the First Men. You know what happened there. You know what we are facing."

"The Others . . ." (aSoS, Jon X)

 

 

 

[Miss_Saffron]

8 hours ago, SeanF said:

 It's probably wishful thinking to believe that Jon and Daenerys will marry, have children, and survive the series, but it's extremely wishful thinking to consider that either of them will finish up as the Big Bad.

Absolutely. Believing either one of them will turn actively and purposefully malevolent is - at this point - a huge leap of logic. There is a marked difference between an antagonist and a villain, and ASOIAF is a brilliant exploration of that. And haters, unfortunatelly, will twist a character they don't like into a caricature of pure evil, without any regard for nuance and canon. 

8 hours ago, SeanF said:

I support both Dany and the Starks.  Even if there does come a point in the tale where they come into political conflict, I expect Martin would present them all sympathetically.

Yes, exactly that. With the caveat, that I absolutely believe that Martin is building both Jon and Dany as sympathetic and heroic figures and makes us guess which one will turn out to be the 'final hero/ruler', just to pull the rug out from under us for the last time Red Wedding and Ned's execution style. I'm quite certain that the answer to the question of 'which one of them is AA/PtwP/will end on the Iron Throne?' is 'neither'. But I'm equally certain that they will stay sympathetic to the very and if they'll ever do 'bad things', it'll be portrayed as tragedy not villainy. 

[BalerionTheCat]

3 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

As you said though, Mance had other solutions. He only tried to negotiate after the NW bled him dry. He tried to save his people without making a single attempt to reach a diplomatic solution with the NW

Jon lost his life after letting a few men thru. Not Mance and all his people. Do you think there was a peaceful solution with those in command? Bowen, Slynt, Pyke, Mallister? Ned beheaded the last man telling him the others were coming. The NW lost maybe half their men at the Fist. But they were still not letting the FF in. Maybe Mance came to WF to see Robert, Benjen., the northern lords. But he didn't find anyone likely to listen.

[Steelborn]

Jon.

[U. B. Cool]

23 hours ago, Prince Rhaego's Soul said:

I will say this.  And this is sure to offend some of you.  But since some of you have already started making personal attacks  . . . .

There is a lot more immaturity and antisocial behavior coming from the Dany haters.  Just read some of the posts from the Dany haters on this forum and they appear to have been written by immature middle-schoolers with antisocial tendencies.  Dany fans come across as more mature and more intelligent.  

This.  Many of those Dany-haters are extremely immature, sexist, insecure, etc.  

[Skahaz mo Kandaq]

On 7/7/2020 at 7:28 PM, Prince Rhaego's Soul said:

I will say this.  And this is sure to offend some of you.  But since some of you have already started making personal attacks  . . . .

There is a lot more immaturity and antisocial behavior coming from the Dany haters.  Just read some of the posts from the Dany haters on this forum and they appear to have been written by immature middle-schoolers with antisocial tendencies.  Dany fans come across as more mature and more intelligent.  

It has gotten better.  Trust me on that.  I joined the forum 8 years ago.  This place had a lot of bitter Daenerys Targaryen Haters back then.  Their postings made it obvious those haters had very little quality life experiences.  Most were bitter, unhappy people who likely lost in the games of love and life.  They are living through George Martin's Stark characters as if they have none of their own.  Most of them are gone now and I am hoping they found something to make their lives more complete and something to live for beyond what George Martin is writing. 

Daenerys Targaryen's fans seems more normal to me too.  Like they're people who have a lot of quality life experiences.  We can thank the show for that.  It helped bring George Martin's novels to the attention of a wider audience and brought more of the average, normal people into the fan community. 

[Pontius Pilate]

16 hours ago, Eltharion21 said:

Lot of Tv show fans saw Daenerys as symbol of modern racial injustice emancipation, Tv show writers have given her "Breaking the Wheel" speech, presumably intent on dissolving feudal system, which had no sense especially in her final dialogue with Jon Snow. Her invasion of Westeros during season 6 was peak of popularity, yet they ignored consequences of her actions in leaving Meeren to sell-sword Daario or having invasion army made of Dothraki, Unsulied, Ironborn and Dornish.

I try not to hate either character, Daenerys or Jon Snow have both potential to do good and bad things, though I don't consider them solution to every problem or main characters, but important parts of  the song. 

 

I am not a fan of the TV show.  It was an extremely unbalanced story and you only need to watch the first season to see the evidence.  It was obvious to me that those writers are fans of the Starks instead of Dany.  It sickened me when they smoothed out Catelyn's speech to Jon, whom I do not like, but nevertheless.  The speech beside Bran's bedside.  They also made Sansa less selfish and less self-centered.  The biggest sin in my eyes are their bleaching of Jon Snow.  They hid the real reason why poor Bowen Marsh had to put that guy down.  So I do not believe the show had much of an influence on the fans here.  We read the books.  We know better. 

More "wishful thinking" are Jon's fans. 

[Mithras]

The dragon has three rofls.

As a "Dany-hater", with all my immaturity and anti-social behavior and misogyny and whatnot, I was able to tell from a mile away that Dany was a villain in the making. Meanwhile, there is still a giant web of reread threads in the forum, all of which turned out to be wish fulfilment in line with an imagined fan fiction ending. Who is more wishful thinking now?