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Which fans are more wishful thinking, Dany or Jon?


Alyn Oakenfist

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18 hours ago, Miss_Saffron said:

Absolutely. Believing either one of them will turn actively and purposefully malevolent is - at this point - a huge leap of logic. There is a marked difference between an antagonist and a villain, and ASOIAF is a brilliant exploration of that. And haters, unfortunatelly, will twist a character they don't like into a caricature of pure evil, without any regard for nuance and canon. 

 

Despite Martin reiterating that he has no interest in creating a Dark Lord, there are those who insist that Daenerys is the Dark Queen.

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1 hour ago, SeanF said:

Despite Martin reiterating that he has no interest in creating a Dark Lord, there are those who insist that Daenerys is the Dark Queen.

There is a difference between a Dark Lord and a fate turning bad. Diffeent shades. Robb, Jaime, Tywin, Walder Frey, Lysa Arryn, Lady Stoneheart, Cersei...

BTW, I believe Dark Load was about the Others. They are not Sauron.

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58 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Despite Martin reiterating that he has no interest in creating a Dark Lord, there are those who insist that Daenerys is the Dark Queen.

Sadly, that's true. 

And it ties into this point:

26 minutes ago, BalerionTheCat said:

There is a difference between a Dark Lord and a fate turning bad. Diffeent shades. Robb, Jaime, Tywin, Walder Frey, Lysa Arryn, Lady Stoneheart, Cersei...

Exactly. Which proves that there is no need to push Dany all the way into a cruel tyrant on a dragon-fueled power trip to make her the antagonist. But some of the interpretations of her character and predictions for her future treat that turn of events as an inevitable fact. There is a difference between Dany the Unhinged Pyromaniac and Dany the Well-Intentioned Phyrric Victor of the Game of Thrones. 

On 7/8/2020 at 1:28 AM, Prince Rhaego's Soul said:

There is a lot more immaturity and antisocial behavior coming from the Dany haters. 

I really gave this a thought. I can agree that in terms of quantity the number of Dany-haters vs. Jon-haters seems bigger and therefore there is more 'bad takes' on her character. But quality wise it's pretty much all over the place. 

There are Dany-haters who grasp for straws to paint her every shade of black there is and there are Dany-apologists, who refuse to acknowledge any of her flaws or that those flaws could ever have unpleasant consequences for her future.

Same with Jon (albeit less often, as I said). Some people believe he's the the last ray of truth and honor in the shithole of Westeros and some believe he's the Night King in the making, who's one ice-resurrection away from consorting with the Others. 

And I'll argue that resorting to the 'ad personam' arguments to discredit the opposition is equally immature, no matter what stance that opposition takes on the interpretation of fictional characters. 

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11 minutes ago, Miss_Saffron said:

I really gave this a thought. I can agree that in terms of quantity the number of Dany-haters vs. Jon-haters seems bigger and therefore there is more 'bad takes' on her character. But quality wise it's pretty much all over the place. 

There are Dany-haters who grasp for straws to paint her every shade of black there is and there are Dany-apologists, who refuse to acknowledge any of her flaws or that those flaws could ever have unpleasant consequences for her future.

Same with Jon (albeit less often, as I said). Some people believe he's the the last ray of truth and honor in the shithole of Westeros and some believe he's the Night King in the making, who's one ice-resurrection away from consorting with the Others. 

And I'll argue that resorting to the 'ad personam' arguments to discredit the opposition is equally immature, no matter what stance that opposition takes on the interpretation of fictional characters. 

:agree:

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11 hours ago, Pontius Pilate said:

I am not a fan of the TV show.  It was an extremely unbalanced story and you only need to watch the first season to see the evidence.  It was obvious to me that those writers are fans of the Starks instead of Dany.  It sickened me when they smoothed out Catelyn's speech to Jon, whom I do not like, but nevertheless.  The speech beside Bran's bedside.  They also made Sansa less selfish and less self-centered.  The biggest sin in my eyes are their bleaching of Jon Snow.  They hid the real reason why poor Bowen Marsh had to put that guy down.  So I do not believe the show had much of an influence on the fans here.  We read the books.  We know better. 

More "wishful thinking" are Jon's fans. 

Jon is a dingdong with a chip on his shoulders in the books.  The show decided to completely change the character.   It goes beyond inaccuracy.  They (HBO) created their own character and named it Jon Snow. 

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14 hours ago, Skahaz mo Kandaq said:

It has gotten better.  Trust me on that.  I joined the forum 8 years ago.  This place had a lot of bitter Daenerys Targaryen Haters back then.  Their postings made it obvious those haters had very little quality life experiences.  Most were bitter, unhappy people who likely lost in the games of love and life.  They are living through George Martin's Stark characters as if they have none of their own.  Most of them are gone now and I am hoping they found something to make their lives more complete and something to live for beyond what George Martin is writing. 

Daenerys Targaryen's fans seems more normal to me too.  Like they're people who have a lot of quality life experiences.  We can thank the show for that.  It helped bring George Martin's novels to the attention of a wider audience and brought more of the average, normal people into the fan community. 

I signed up five years ago and I do remember some of those nutty haters of Daenerys.  I would have been more charitable in my opinion of those nut cases if they had been teenagers.  I do not think they were.  They were just adults who should be still wearing diapers.  Some were socially inept and childish.  Like you said, they moved on. 

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6 hours ago, Miss_Saffron said:

the Unhinged Pyromaniac

I don't know if she will turn "Unhinged Pyromaniac". Her father did after the duress of Duskendale. At least we can't say the possibility doesn't exist in ASoIaF universe. But honestly, I believe this part is rather for Cersei. She already has the lust for wildfire. And those theories of "A+J" fit her and Jaime better than Tyrion.

But other people, people written to be loved, turned unexpectedly the wrong way after errors made in time of despair, without any intent to cause harm. Catelyn Stark among them. Some just died, like Robb and Ned. I believe there is a constant in GRRM story: people pay for their errors.

Dany choices in the Slaver Bay had terrible consequences. Astapor is gone, the Pale Mare seems unchecked. We just have a little feeling these days of what a great plague is. We can't ignore what GRRM is writing.

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9 minutes ago, BalerionTheCat said:

I don't know if she will turn "Unhinged Pyromaniac". Her father did after the duress of Duskendale. At least we can't say the possibility doesn't exist in ASoIaF universe. But honestly, I believe this part is rather for Cersei. She already has the lust for wildfire. And those theories of "A+J" fit her and Jaime better than Tyrion.

But other people, people written to be loved, turned unexpectedly the wrong way after errors made in time of despair, without any intent to cause harm. Catelyn Stark among them. Some just died, like Robb and Ned. I believe there is a constant in GRRM story: people pay for their errors.

Dany choices in the Slaver Bay had terrible consequences. Astapor is gone, the Pale Mare seems unchecked. We just have a little feeling these days of what a great plague is. We can't ignore what GRRM is writing.

Daenerys underestimated just how viciously the Slavers would fight back.  Yes, she deserves a lot of criticism for not anticipating it.  As she herself said "I'm a Queen.  It's my duty to know."

She does not deserve criticism for the actual behaviour of the Slavers.  That's very much the "look what you made me do" line of argument. 

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50 minutes ago, SeanF said:

She does not deserve criticism for the actual behaviour of the Slavers.  That's very much the "look what you made me do" line of argument. 

The plague was rather Cleon's. But IMO it doesn't matter. Cleon is dead, the slavers will die. She took charge there and made mistakes. Things gone worse and there is no evidence it will go much better after she leaves. It didn't do well for Astapor. And yet she was the town next door. With reports of Cleon incompetence. Taking charge is taking responsibility.

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21 hours ago, Skahaz mo Kandaq said:

It has gotten better.  Trust me on that.  I joined the forum 8 years ago.  This place had a lot of bitter Daenerys Targaryen Haters back then.  Their postings made it obvious those haters had very little quality life experiences.  Most were bitter, unhappy people who likely lost in the games of love and life.  They are living through George Martin's Stark characters as if they have none of their own.  Most of them are gone now and I am hoping they found something to make their lives more complete and something to live for beyond what George Martin is writing. 

Daenerys Targaryen's fans seems more normal to me too.  Like they're people who have a lot of quality life experiences.  We can thank the show for that.  It helped bring George Martin's novels to the attention of a wider audience and brought more of the average, normal people into the fan community. 

The show brought a wider audience to A Song of Ice and Fire and encouraged them to pick up the books.  It helped because it brought emotionally mature people into the discussion.  

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18 hours ago, Pontius Pilate said:

I am not a fan of the TV show.  It was an extremely unbalanced story and you only need to watch the first season to see the evidence.  It was obvious to me that those writers are fans of the Starks instead of Dany.  It sickened me when they smoothed out Catelyn's speech to Jon, whom I do not like, but nevertheless.  The speech beside Bran's bedside.  They also made Sansa less selfish and less self-centered.  The biggest sin in my eyes are their bleaching of Jon Snow.  They hid the real reason why poor Bowen Marsh had to put that guy down.  So I do not believe the show had much of an influence on the fans here.  We read the books.  We know better. 

More "wishful thinking" are Jon's fans. 

They can't wash away Jon's awful decisions at the Wall and so they changed the story.  Most of us know better.

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The most wishful thinkers are Sansa fans and Dany haters.

I suppose Dany fans are more wishful than Jon fans, majority of Jon fans don't believe he's going to finish king but I think a majority of Dany fans do believe she will end queen.

There are still some Stannis fans who think he won't burn Shireen, that's fairly crazy.

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13 hours ago, BalerionTheCat said:

But other people, people written to be loved, turned unexpectedly the wrong way after errors made in time of despair, without any intent to cause harm. Catelyn Stark among them. Some just died, like Robb and Ned. I believe there is a constant in GRRM story: people pay for their errors.

Absolutely. The part of your post I've bolded is, IMHO, the best, most succint description of the trajectory of Dany's character development I've seen on this forum so far. 

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1 hour ago, Miss_Saffron said:

Absolutely. The part of your post I've bolded is, IMHO, the best, most succint description of the trajectory of Dany's character development I've seen on this forum so far. 

For sure, Daenerys has faults, both intellectual and moral.  So does anyone.  I'm pretty certain that there will be things that she does that are morally questionable and/or foolish, during the remainder of this tale.

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4 minutes ago, SeanF said:

For sure, Daenerys has faults, both intellectual and moral.  So does anyone.  I'm pretty certain that there will be things that she does that are morally questionable and/or foolish, during the remainder of this tale.

I’d say that’s gonna happen to every main character...

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21 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:
26 minutes ago, SeanF said:

For sure, Daenerys has faults, both intellectual and moral.  So does anyone.  I'm pretty certain that there will be things that she does that are morally questionable and/or foolish, during the remainder of this tale.

I’d say that’s gonna happen to every main character...

I agree with both of you. If there is one constant in this series, it's that all the characters - sympathetic or not - are repeatedly put in the situations that invite them making mistakes and then they often do that. 'Humans are fallible' is one of the most prominent themes in the story. 

So maybe the most wishful thinking fans are those that - for whatever reason - refuse to acknowledge the possibility that a given character might fail at his goals? :dunno:

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16 minutes ago, Miss_Saffron said:

So maybe the most wishful thinking fans are those that - for whatever reason - refuse to acknowledge the possibility that a given character might fail at his goals? :dunno:

Sure. And that falls into the category I brought up up thread: readers who dismiss the text because of their biases (love or hatred for any character) are the ones who engage in wishful thinking the most.

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