Which fans are more wishful thinking, Dany or Jon?

[Targaryen Restoration]

On 7/8/2020 at 9:05 PM, Skahaz mo Kandaq said:

It has gotten better.  Trust me on that.  I joined the forum 8 years ago.  This place had a lot of bitter Daenerys Targaryen Haters back then.  Their postings made it obvious those haters had very little quality life experiences.  Most were bitter, unhappy people who likely lost in the games of love and life.  They are living through George Martin's Stark characters as if they have none of their own.  Most of them are gone now and I am hoping they found something to make their lives more complete and something to live for beyond what George Martin is writing. 

Daenerys Targaryen's fans seems more normal to me too.  Like they're people who have a lot of quality life experiences.  We can thank the show for that.  It helped bring George Martin's novels to the attention of a wider audience and brought more of the average, normal people into the fan community. 

I remember those days.    I had a discussion with one Dany hating guy.  I honestly thought he had a mental disability.  People do grow up eventually and maybe that guy did.  

[frenin]

2 hours ago, Targaryen Restoration said:

I remember those days.    I had a discussion with one Dany hating guy.  I honestly thought he had a mental disability.  People do grow up eventually and maybe that guy did.  

WoW lmao, now people who hate Dany are retarded??

Anyway, the best way to defend a fictional person is by ad hominems and personal attacks... Sounds about right team Dany.

[SeanF]

51 minutes ago, frenin said:

WoW lmao, now people who hate Dany are retarded??

Anyway, the best way to defend a fictional person is by ad hominems... Sounds about right tean Dany.

I hate Ramsay Bolton, because he's written to be hateful.  Other than that, there are very few characters in this tale that I hate.  Disliking a fictional character is fine.  Hating a fictional character who is not written to be hateful is ........odd and obsessive, whether that character is Daenerys, Sansa, Catelyn or Jon.  It's almost always about "'shipping" on the part of the hater.

[frenin]

1 minute ago, SeanF said:

I hate Ramsay Bolton, because he's written to be hateful.  Other than that, there are very few characters in this tale that I hate.  Disliking a fictional character is fine.  Hating a fictional character who is not written to be hateful is ........odd and obsessive, whether that character is Daenerys, Sansa, Catelyn or Jon.  It's almost always about "'shipping."

I doubt that anyone really hates a character, but hate is used to so much that has become to to mean "dislike or really dislike" instead of  its more natural and far more negative old meaning.

Regardless, accusing others of being retarded yadda yadda yadda doesn't really paint a good picture.

[SeanF]

5 minutes ago, frenin said:

I doubt that anyone really hates a character, but hate is used to so much that has become to to mean "dislike or really dislike" instead of  its more natural and far more negative old meaning.

Regardless, accusing others of being retarded yadda yadda yadda doesn't really paint a good picture.

It's the difference between someone saying "I don't like Catelyn for her treatment of Jon" and " I loathed that bitch, and I cheered when they cut her throat and dumped her in the Trident."

[frenin]

42 minutes ago, SeanF said:

It's the difference between someone saying "I don't like Catelyn for her treatment of Jon" and " I loathed that bitch, and I cheered when they cut her throat and dumped her in the Trident."

That still falls in the "really dislike" box, regardless when talking about fictional people, people tend to be more extremists.

[Miss_Saffron]

1 hour ago, Targaryen Restoration said:

I had a discussion with one Dany hating guy.  I honestly thought he had a mental disability.

Quality argument here, I see. Plays right into what @Prince Rhaego's Soul wrote about the superior maturity of Dany's fans. I mean, with friends like this poor Dany doesn't need haters to give her a bad name. 

[BalerionTheCat]

8 hours ago, Miss_Saffron said:

Absolutely. The part of your post I've bolded is, IMHO, the best, most succint description of the trajectory of Dany's character development I've seen on this forum so far. 

Thank you

6 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

Sure. And that falls into the category I brought up up thread: readers who dismiss the text because of their biases (love or hatred for any character) are the ones who engage in wishful thinking the most.

Absolutely. Some are disregarding the text because of prejudged ideas. Because I don't know why, hatred of fictional characters. But also, some value some concepts differently, war justification, vengeance, power seeking, freedom of choice, self determination, whatever.

[Moiraine Sedai]

48 minutes ago, SeanF said:

It's the difference between someone saying "I don't like Catelyn for her treatment of Jon" and " I loathed that bitch, and I cheered when they cut her throat and dumped her in the Trident."

You get more of the second type from the anti-Dany people than you do from the anti-Jon people. I do see a difference in the two camps. I agree with Prince Rhaego's Soul.  

[Targaryen Restoration]

On 7/7/2020 at 2:42 PM, Bloodraven’s Spider said:

Dany fans are the biggest wenches. They will never even consider the slightest thought that she will die.

The dumb wench will not be alive by the end of the story.

And this is an example of what @Prince Rhaego's Soul might be talking about.  

 

On 7/7/2020 at 12:58 PM, Willam Stark said:

Ok we get it you hate Jon, you can stop whining around now.

Here is another example.  I can completely understand why other members would consider these kinds of responses lacking in maturity.
.  

[Miss_Saffron]

16 minutes ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

You get more of the second type from the anti-Dany people than you do from the anti-Jon people.

Well, Dany has three giant, predatory flamethrowers and has thoughts that boil down to "my kids are monsters, and so should I", so it's easier to pigeonhole her into the role of the ultimate evil. Theories where Jon suddenly does one-eighty and becomes the Frostbitten Antichrist have the glaring believability problem in the fact that Jon does literaly everything he can to stop Other to the point that his single-mindedness in this regard antagonizes people that should be on his side.

Not that I'm exusing Dany-haters for succumbing to that. Just saying why they are more prolific. 

[Miss_Saffron]

5 minutes ago, Targaryen Restoration said:

And this is an example of what @Prince Rhaego's Soul might be talking about.  

 

Here is another example.  I can completely understand why other members would consider these kinds of responses lacking in maturity.
.  

Oh, I absolutely agree that the responses you've quoted lack maturity. I was just pointing out, that yours wasn't any better. 

[Moiraine Sedai]

I can ignore posters like Bloodraven's Spider calling other fans wenches. He discredits and disgraces himself.  It's better to just not take them seriously.  The topic was brought up about the difference between the two groups and I agree with Prince Rhaego Soul. 

 

[Moiraine Sedai]

4 minutes ago, Miss_Saffron said:

Well, Dany has three giant, predatory flamethrowers and has thoughts that boil down to "my kids are monsters, and so should I", so it's easier to pigeonhole her into the role of the ultimate evil. Theories where Jon suddenly does one-eighty and becomes the Frostbitten Antichrist have the glaring believability problem in the fact that Jon does literaly everything he can to stop them to the point that his single-mindedness in this regard antagonizes people that should be on his side.

Not that I'm exusing Dany-haters for succumbing to that. Just saying why they are more prolific. 

She is fighting to help the enslaved people in Meereen. Which is an act of good on a grand scale.  That puts her on a hero's arc.

There is more evidence for Jon becoming a villain.  Hell, he just got the watch involved into war with the Bolton's. He killed Slynt and let Mance walk. He's already there in tragic villain territory.  

You just hear more from Dany haters because they are more vocal about it. I don't think it's a matter of numbers. The few who are just compose and invent longer posts. 

 

[Targaryen Restoration]

2 hours ago, frenin said:

WoW lmao, now people who hate Dany are retarded??

Anyway, the best way to defend a fictional person is by ad hominems and personal attacks... Sounds about right team Dany.

I was referring to one specific guy and agreed with @Skahaz mo Kandaq that there are more people who were causing problems in the ranks of the haters.  

[James Fenimore Cooper XXII]

What the topic author called wishful thinking is a theory to another.  Fan theories have in them an element of a wish list.  I don't think that can be helped.  Everybody has a theory proposal on some topic or another. 

[James Fenimore Cooper XXII]

On 7/8/2020 at 9:05 PM, Skahaz mo Kandaq said:

It has gotten better.  Trust me on that.  I joined the forum 8 years ago.  This place had a lot of bitter Daenerys Targaryen Haters back then.  Their postings made it obvious those haters had very little quality life experiences.  Most were bitter, unhappy people who likely lost in the games of love and life.  They are living through George Martin's Stark characters as if they have none of their own.  Most of them are gone now and I am hoping they found something to make their lives more complete and something to live for beyond what George Martin is writing. 

Daenerys Targaryen's fans seems more normal to me too.  Like they're people who have a lot of quality life experiences.  We can thank the show for that.  It helped bring George Martin's novels to the attention of a wider audience and brought more of the average, normal people into the fan community. 

I was visiting another fan forum until three years ago.  There was a noticeable drop in the quality of the discussions there because most would deteriorate into name calling and insults.  It happened near the time when about 4-5 new fans came.  That forum lacked moderators.  I'm afraid that is where your old buddies went to.

[Miss_Saffron]

35 minutes ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

She is fighting to help the enslaved people in Meereen. Which is an act of good on a grand scale.  That puts her on a hero's arc.

Yes. And the efects of her freedom revolution FOR said formerly enslaved people include, among others, the plague and poverty so bad it forces them to re-sell themselves to their former owners. Which, IMO, isn't any better or worse than Jon involving Watch in the fight with Boltons, when it's obvious from the letter that Ramsay would come for them sooner or later. Unless, of course you're advocating that Jon should have fulfill Ramsay's 'requests'. Because that wouldn't put Jon on the road to villany at all. 

[James Fenimore Cooper XXII]

@Miss_Saffron  To be fair, the troubles in Meereen are the fault of the old slave masters wanting a return to their old, sadistic practice.  Give Daenerys Targaryen credit for at least trying to compromise and end the atrocities of the Harpies.  The old slaving families should accept the needed social and economic change because it will be moral to do so.  They chose guerilla warfare and passive aggressive methods to resist change.  Daenerys Targaryen will be well within her rights if she decided to later on pick a heavier handed approach.  It isn't really fair to expect a social change of this magnitude to proceed without problems.  I don't think there is anybody else who could have done half as well as Daenerys Targaryen. 

Jon's mismanagement at the Wall was the worst example of leadership.  The duty of the Night's Watch might be the most important job in the world if the Wall is indeed the barrier between the living and the dead.  Something so common as the trials of Janos Slynt and Mance Rayder was a leadership pop quiz which Jon failed.  He failed at such a simple task.  He failed at justice.  The sentencing and the punishing of two offenders under his command.  If he failed that, which he did, then it does not bode well for his potential as a leader.  A leader must be able to set priorities.  George gave him a difficult test and he flunked.  He chose Arya over his duties to the Watch.  It was a decision of stupidity to think he could smuggle Arya out of Westeros and set her up away from her husband.  That was no longer his job.  He had more important things to do.  It only brought the wrath of Ramsay to the Watch at the worst possible time.

[SeanF]

39 minutes ago, Miss_Saffron said:

Yes. And the efects of her freedom revolution FOR said formerly enslaved people include, among others, the plague and poverty so bad it forces them to re-sell themselves to their former owners. Which, IMO, isn't any better or worse than Jon involving Watch in the fight with Boltons, when it's obvious from the letter that Ramsay would come for them sooner or later. Unless, of course you're advocating that Jon should have fulfill Ramsay's 'requests'. Because that wouldn't put Jon on the road to villany at all. 

My view is that Night's Watch neutrality (which is a tradition, not part of their oath) is a ship that has sailed.  Jon was right to seek to use Stannis as a proxy to overthrow the Boltons.  Stannis will be a better ally in the War for the Dawn than the Boltons eve could be.

WRT Slavers Bay, no servile war has ever run smoothly.  If we're blaming Daenerys for the condition of Slavers Bay, one should (in real life) blame Lincoln for the condition of the South, Spartacus for the condition of Southern Italy, and Dessalines for the condition of Haiti.  The fault in each case actually lies with those fighting to uphold foul social systems, not with those trying to defeat them, in my opinion.