Why is Renly seemingly disliked in the community?

[Ran]

10 minutes ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

 

Touche. I still think he probably didn't think Stannis was goign to support him, but being that I have no evidence, we have to go with yours. 

Need to follow that quote with the back and forth on Stannis immediately after. 

Renly is taking as fait accompli that the non-aligned parties like Stannis and Dorne would fall behind him because what choice do the they have, as he sees it? And more importantly, the context should be noted: he's presenting himself as fully  confident to the envoy of an enemy, so to some degree this is strategic bluster. In point of fact, at this point he already knows Stannis has proclaimed, but is taking advantage of the fact that Catelyn does not know to present a false picture to get her to convey to Robb that fighting against Renly is pointless.

 

[Lord Lannister]

Eh, Stannis had his duty, Robb had his honor, Balon had his tradition, Joffrey even had his "birthright" but what did Renly have? He wanted to be king for shits and giggles. 

[Ran]

1 hour ago, Lord Lannister said:

Eh, Stannis had his duty, Robb had his honor, Balon had his tradition, Joffrey even had his "birthright" but what did Renly have? He wanted to be king for shits and giggles. 

He wanted to be king because he believed he was the most capable to be a good ruler. He explicitly says this:

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"Why the oldest son, and not the best-fitted? The crown will suit me, as it never suited Robert and would not suit Stannis. I have it in me to be a great king, strong yet generous, clever, just, diligent, loyal to my friends and terrible to my enemies, yet capable of forgiveness, patient-"
"-humble?" Catelyn supplied.
Renly laughed. "You must allow a king some flaws, my lady."

You can question his self-assessment (though his strength, generosity, cleverness, apparent diligence, loyalty to his friends, willingness to be terrible to his enemies, capability for forgiveness, and patience all seem to be attested to in the course of the two books, as his lack of humility as well; only his ability to be just is a question mark) but it seems difficult to suppose that he didn't really believe it. 

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

2 hours ago, Lord Lannister said:

Eh, Stannis had his duty, Robb had his honor, Balon had his tradition, Joffrey even had his "birthright" but what did Renly have? He wanted to be king for shits and giggles. 

He thought he would make the best King. Also, my argument would be that he had his charisma/political savvy...you know perhaps the two most important things to actually accomplish the things you want to accomplish. A Stannis Kingdom would have constant insurrection. A Robb Kingdom DID have constant insurrection. Robb handled several political issues poorly, and so did Stannis. Joffrey's birthright means nothing to Renly, and oh yeah Balon. You really lost credibility by including him as Balon is the most unworthy person to wear a crown...ever. His tradition? The old way is dead and has been dead for a long time. Balon had his delusional ideas of a tradition that hadn't been successful since before the day's of the conquest. 

52 minutes ago, Ran said:

He wanted to be king because he believed he was the most capable to be a good ruler. He explicitly says this:

You can question his self-assessment (though his strength, generosity, cleverness, apparent diligence, loyalty to his friends, willingness to be terrible to his enemies, capability for forgiveness, and patience all seem to be attested to in the course of the two books, as his lack of humility as well; only his ability to be just is a question mark) but it seems difficult to suppose that he didn't really believe it. 

Exactly

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

8 hours ago, Arthur Peres said:

 

Blackfish has no idea if any Stark is alive and we was still carrying Robb's banner, and the same goes to the Blackwoods.

 

I missed a gold opportunity here, go back and let me try again :

As I am the Lord you refer to, my response is that my land was burned and my people killed by the Lannisters. I was in this war before King Robb even arrived. I personally led the survivors after our defeat by Jaime Lannister back to Riverrun. My son was murdered during the Red Wedding. King Robb was indeed a King I could follow, but after his death my refusal to lay down my arms was due to the Brackens besieging my castle. As I told Ser Jaime, I would surrender to the crown, but not to that pompous fool. Lord Renly (I'm speaking in character now and my character wouldn't have called Renly a King) could have had bannermen just as loyal to him, but their people were not killed, their crops were not burned, their children not murdered. It is hard to compare the two. 

[Arthur Peres]

3 hours ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

As I am the Lord you refer to, my response is that my land was burned and my people killed by the Lannisters. I was in this war before King Robb even arrived. I personally led the survivors after our defeat by Jaime Lannister back to Riverrun. My son was murdered during the Red Wedding. King Robb was indeed a King I could follow, but after his death my refusal to lay down my arms was due to the Brackens besieging my castle. As I told Ser Jaime, I would surrender to the crown, but not to that pompous fool. Lord Renly (I'm speaking in character now and my character wouldn't have called Renly a King) could have had bannermen just as loyal to him, but their people were not killed, their crops were not burned, their children not murdered. It is hard to compare the two. 

Blackfish entered in the war together with Robb, he wasn't on the Riverlands at the start, he was in the Vale.

Blackfish had no son, his only family was Edmure and he was more than willing to let the Freys hang him before he surrender his castle. 

Blackfish had all the reasons to surrender, a lost cause, his family was hostage and he still kept fighting.

8 hours ago, Ran said:

Renly is taking as fait accompli that the non-aligned parties like Stannis and Dorne would fall behind him because what choice do the they have, as he sees it? And more importantly, the context should be noted: he's presenting himself as fully  confident to the envoy of an enemy, so to some degree this is strategic bluster. In point of fact, at this point he already knows Stannis has proclaimed, but is taking advantage of the fact that Catelyn does not know to present a false picture to get her to convey to Robb that fighting against Renly is pointless.

 

Renly didn't know that Stannis was crowed as he was just as surprise as Catelyn to hear the knews of Stannis marching against him.

“Your Grace.” The rider spurred his mount closer. “I came swift as I could. From Storm’s End. We are besieged, Your Grace, Ser Cortnay defies them, but . . .”

“But . . . that’s not possible. I would have been told if Lord Tywin left Harrenhal.”

“These are no Lannisters, my liege. It’s Lord Stannis at your gates. King Stannis, he calls himself now.”

[Ran]

Stannis's proclamation of his intentions was part of the same message in which he accused Cersei and Jaime of adultery and incest, a message we know Renly was aware of back at Horn Hill. The text of that message was:

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All men know me for the trueborn son of Steffon Baratheon, Lord of Storm's End, by his lady wife Cassana of House Estermont. I declare upon the honor of my House that my beloved brother Robert, our late king, left no trueborn issue of his body, the boy Joffrey, the boy Tommen, and the girl Myrcella being abominations born of incest between Cersei Lannister and her brother Ser Jaime the Kingslayer. By right of birth and blood, I do this day lay claim to the Iron Throne of the Seven Kingdoms of Westeros. Let all true men declare their loyalty. Done in the Light of the Lord, under the sign and seal of Stannis of House Baratheon, the First of His Name, King of the Andals, the Rhoynar, and the First Men, and Lord of the Seven Kingdoms.

What surprised Renly was not that Stannis had sent the letter and made the claim -- it was the sort of foolish thing Stannis would do, in Renly's mind, and when no one flocked to him Renly thought he'd just forget about it -- but that he was actually crazy enough to take his piddling little army over to actually try and make good his claim, and launching a siege of Storm's End as a first step no less. 

[Arthur Peres]

9 hours ago, frenin said:

Still laying siege to his castle, even Cat who apparently is your compass, doesn't see any wrong in that. In fact she would've been brought the whole army.

 

She complains about Renly not bringing his supplies with him, not that he didn't had enough numbers...

Renly was more than willing to march against Stannis in a heart beat, but he was dragging himself against the Lannisters. He was presented two options to fight the Lannisters or Stannis and choose to march against his own blood. Stannis was a selfish prick and is a kingslayer, but Renly would be the same in my eyes if he had won.

9 hours ago, frenin said:

Renly was minding his business until Stannis dragged him. If you want someone to attack you, laying siege to their castles is very good way to do it.

 

Renly business were jumping over Stannis claim, and Renly was arrogant enough to think that his brother would still suport him, without even speaking a word with the man. 

9 hours ago, frenin said:

There was no bloodless way to get the Throne, there were certainly bloodier ways than that.

Yes, Stannis with a portion of Renly's men would have tried to take the city, look how well it went. 

Renly had the means to pull a relatively bloodless coup for his part and without having to sack the city a la Tywin, because had the situation had continued the King's landers themselves would open the doors to his army.

This is a argument made on bad faith. Unlike Stannis Renly would not have to worry about the Tyrell vanguard crushing his army.

Renly was at war, there is nothing bloodless on that. If he starved the city more and more the death ratio could be much higher than the storming of the city, his own man were eager to go to battle, but he again choose to stay put and died.

9 hours ago, frenin said:

He expected Robb to either do the dirty work for him or to leave Tywin delicate enough for him to eat him piece a meal.

Robb would not support him, that was made clear, Cat herself says so and we can trust her statement about her own son. Robb sent his mother for her to get Renly to act against a common enemy, nothing less nothing more.

Robb send him Catelyn to negotiate, his homage is the biggest card that Robb has, of course he would not offer it at the start if Renly isn't willing to do anything of him either.

9 hours ago, frenin said:

And contrary to Robb you don't have a lot of people insulting him. 

Who insults Robb besides the Freys and the bitter Stannis?

Like I said previous unlike Renly, Robb's man were still fighting for him name even after he was dead.

9 hours ago, frenin said:

No, he calls him the King and defends him right on. It would seem that you don't like what the text says a lot of times, you're bend it way too much.

No I'm not... Tarly comes barking at Catelyn complaining that Robb isn't on his knees begging for Renly to be king... Catelyn gives him the back handed slap with “King Robb is warring, my lord,” Catelyn replied with icy courtesy, “not playing at tourney"

Tarly is not praising Renly, he is insulting Robb on piss contest with Catelyn the text is clear...Again, take Loras and brienne from the picture and no one has anything positive to say about the man.

[Arthur Peres]

9 hours ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

I'm reading AFfC now. That isn't anywhere near to happening. Tyrion has only sent the letter. Renly is already dead. I just checked. Myrcella is going to Dorne 7 chapters in the future. I think we can assume Dorne didn't make it's move until AFTER Renly was dead. 

 

Go back to ACoK then, the Martells did mobilized as they were ordered at Tyrion request, as I said before, no one belived that they would fight for the Lannisters, but the did declare support for Joffrey, they did gattered their armies and they moved on the Stormlands.

". So far Doran Martell had done no more than call his banners. Once Myrcella was safe in Braavos, he had pledged to move his strength to the high passes, where the threat might make some of the Marcher lords rethink their loyalties and give Stannis pause about marching north. It was purely a feint, however. The Martells would not commit to actual battle unless Dorne itself was attacked, and Stannis was not so great a fool. Though some of his bannermen may be, Tyrion reflected. I should think on that."

And later on his movements were made acording to what was asked from him.

Doran Martell has called his banners and fortified the mountain passes. His Dornishmen are poised to sweep down onto the Marches. And Highgarden is far from spent

[frenin]

29 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said:

Renly didn't know that Stannis was crowed as he was just as surprise as Catelyn to hear the knews of Stannis marching against him.

“Your Grace.” The rider spurred his mount closer. “I came swift as I could. From Storm’s End. We are besieged, Your Grace, Ser Cortnay defies them, but . . .”

“But . . . that’s not possible. I would have been told if Lord Tywin left Harrenhal.”

“These are no Lannisters, my liege. It’s Lord Stannis at your gates. King Stannis, he calls himself now.

He did.

 

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Would even Cersei be so mad? Catelyn was speechless.
"Isn't that a sweet story, my lady?" Renly asked. "I was camped at Horn Hill when Lord Tarly received his letter, and I must say, it took my breath away." He smiled at his brother. "I had never suspected you were so clever, Stannis. Were it only true, you would indeed be Robert's heir."
"Were it true? Do you name me a liar?"

 

10 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said:

She complains about Renly not bringing his supplies with him, not that he didn't had enough numbers...

 

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How like his brother Robert he was, even in that . . . only Robert had always had Eddard Stark to temper his boldness with caution. Ned would surely have prevailed upon Robert to bring up his whole force, to encircle Stannis and besiege the besiegers. That choice Renly had denied himself in his headlong rush to come to grips with his brother. He had outdistanced his supply lines, left food and forage days behind with all his wagons and mules and oxen. He must come to battle soon, or starve.

 

 

14 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said:

Renly was more than willing to march against Stannis in a heart beat, but he was dragging himself against the Lannisters. He was presented two options to fight the Lannisters or Stannis and choose to march against his own blood. Stannis was a selfish prick and is a kingslayer, but Renly would be the same in my eyes if he had won.

The Lannisters didn't lay siege to Renly's own power base, Stannis did.

His best general told him that it was better to fight so he fought.

 

15 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said:

Renly business were jumping over Stannis claim, and Renly was arrogant enough to think that his brother would still suport him, without even speaking a word with the man. 

He didn't think none of them had a good claim in the first place, since Robert had sons and all. That doesn't negate the fact that Renly was not actively targetting Stannis.

 

17 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said:

This is a argument made on bad faith. Unlike Stannis Renly would not have to worry about the Tyrell vanguard crushing his army.

?? How??

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There was no bloodless way to get the Throne, there were certainly bloodier ways than that.

This is what i said, i don't really understand your strawman, at any moment i said that Renly's way bloodless, i said it was less bloody.

 

 

19 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said:

Renly was at war, there is nothing bloodless on that. If he starved the city more and more the death ratio could be much higher than the storming of the city, his own man were eager to go to battle, but he again choose to stay put and died.

Ditto, you're still arguing your strawman.

 

 

19 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said:

Robb send him Catelyn to negotiate, his homage is the biggest card that Robb has, of course he would not offer it at the start if Renly isn't willing to do anything of him either.

... Robb was clear, Cat was also clear, he was not bending the knee to Renly, Robb expected Renly to win the war for him and give the Throne to either Tommen or Stannis while accepting his secession, Renly expected Robb to win the war for him and then do him homage.

Robb was already fighting Tywin so Renly had the leverage and used it, just as Robb did a couple of times.

 

24 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said:

Who insults Robb besides the Freys and the bitter Stannis?

Like I said previous unlike Renly, Robb's man were still fighting for him name even after he was dead.

Who of Renly's men ever badmouth him??

Stannis's own soldiers went to Renly's ghost in the middle of the battle, why do you think is that??

Nothing of this disprove this.

 

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Bryce Caron walked his horse forward a few paces, his long rainbow-striped cloak twisting in the wind off the bay. "No man here is a turncloak, ser. My fealty belongs to Storm's End, and King Stannis is its rightful lord . . . and our true king. He is the last of House Baratheon, Robert's heir and Renly's."
"If that is so, why is the Knight of Flowers not among you? And where is Mathis Rowan? Randyll Tarly? Lady Oakheart? Why are they not here in your company, they who loved Renly best? Where is Brienne of Tarth, I ask you?"
"That one?" Ser Guyard Morrigen laughed harshly. "She ran. As well she might. Hers was the hand that slew the king."

 

Until you tell me why would the man invent it, you're not really going nowhere

 

 

28 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said:

No I'm not... Tarly comes barking at Catelyn complaining that Robb isn't on his knees begging for Renly to be king... Catelyn gives him the back handed slap with “King Robb is warring, my lord,” Catelyn replied with icy courtesy, “not playing at tourney"

Tarly is not praising Renly, he is insulting Robb on piss contest with Catelyn the text is clear...Again, take Loras and brienne from the picture and no one has anything positive to say about the man.

Yes, you're. 

It's not a piss contest, Tarly wants Cat and Robb to bend the knee and makes it clear, you're again inventing other reality here.

 

 

 

 

[Arthur Peres]

17 minutes ago, frenin said:

He didn't think none of them had a good claim in the first place, since Robert had sons and all. That doesn't negate the fact that Renly was not actively targetting Stannis.

 

This ignores your own previous argument.

If Renly knew of Stannis letter he knew that Stannis was putting his claim foward and no one defends Renly's claim, not even himself. It was beyond foolish to think Stannis would join him.

19 minutes ago, frenin said:

Who of Renly's men ever badmouth him??

Stannis's own soldiers went to Renly's ghost in the middle of the battle, why do you think is that??

Nothing of this disprove this.

Where did I claim they badmouth him? I asked you to show me who badmouthed Robb besides the Freys, you still haven't.

What I said was that unlike other kings Renly's bannerman changed sides without looking back.

Stannis men deserted him when the battle was lost, thats what I think. We also have examples of man cursing Joffrey before being executed while crying Stannis name.

24 minutes ago, frenin said:

Until you tell me why would the man invent it, you're not really going nowhere

 

Same goes to you, show me any character having something positive to say about Renly.

 

25 minutes ago, frenin said:

The Lannisters didn't lay siege to Renly's own power base, Stannis did.

His best general told him that it was better to fight so he fought.

 

The Lannisters hold the capital that he claimed to be his... Tarly was wrong as yourself agree before.

[Lord Varys]

Guys, George either dropped the ball with Renly claiming Stannis would back him when he later revealed Renly knew about the letter Stannis' sent - or, more likely, George has Renly lie to Catelyn about his belief Stannis would join him/back him against the Lannisters.

Renly also lied when he claimed the Dornishmen would join him, after all. And he led Cat out in the night to have her see the camp fires so she be impressed by that, too - when in fact camp fires only equal people gathering around them, nor men or soldiers.

The man knew how to stage a good show.

Overall as to the question at hand - Renly certainly was the best of the Baratheon brothers. Robert was a drunk and a fool, basically, and Stannis is just a failure in the people department. That guy wouldn't be accepted as king if he was the last pretender around. People would crown a Hayford or Rosby before they settle on him.

The reason why he is not very popular or interesting as character is that he is at best a featured extra.

[frenin]

2 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said:

This ignores your own previous argument.

If Renly knew of Stannis letter he knew that Stannis was putting his claim foward and no one defends Renly's claim, not even himself. It was beyond foolish to think Stannis would join him.

No, it doesn't, as @Ran explains, Renly was just playing Cat, he might have believed Stannis would join him at first but that changed when he got the letter, Cat didn't know about the letter so...

 

3 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said:

Where did I claim they badmouth him? I asked you to show me who badmouthed Robb besides the Freys, you still haven't.

No, you say they ignore him, which isn't true.

About Robb, if you know that people badmouthed him and then ask "show me who badmouthed Robb bar the people who actually did"  that is bad faith.

 

5 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said:

What I said was that unlike other kings Renly's bannerman changed sides without looking back.

They did look back, once a king is dead, new alliances must happen. Even then, they did look back at the Blackwater.

 

 

6 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said:

What I said was that unlike other kings Renly's bannerman changed sides without looking back.

What you think it's not what it says in the text, so what source should we believe??

 

7 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said:

Same goes to you, show me any character having something positive to say about Renly.

Never argued that. I've argued your claim that Penrose's words are false, you can't. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence and there is simply no room to argue otherwise here.

 

 

8 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said:

The Lannisters hold the capital that he claimed to be his... Tarly was wrong as yourself agree before.

And he was still besieging the capital, even while fighting Stannis.

Tarly being in wrong doesn't change the fact that he is Renñy's top general and thus his words do carry a lot of weight.

[Ran]

1 minute ago, frenin said:

Renly was just playing Cat, he might have believed Stannis would join him at first but that changed when he got the letter, Cat didn't know about the letter so...

 

And also the fact that no one was flocking to Stannis based on that letter would have led any reasonable person to give up their aspiration and instead throw their support behind, say, him.

So he's not necessarily lying when he believes Stannis will join him, even knowing that Stannis made a play at king. He just thinks Stannis  not having stirred yet from Dragonstone was due to it sinking in that he was not going to be king because he had no support, and he'd come around to supporting Renly.

As I said, he believes their support is a fait accompli because he was going to win, and they'd be idiots not to join him because of that.

[Minsc]

13 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said:

What I said was that unlike other kings Renly's bannerman changed sides without looking back.

In the sense they changed sides quickly from Stannis back to Renly when they believed he had returned.  It isn't changing sides on someone if you do it after they are dead and without heirs.  Without Renly, at best the only cause connected to him is their continued loyality to the Tyrells which plenty continued to do.

[Arthur Peres]

Just now, frenin said:

About Robb, if you know that people badmouthed him and then ask "show me who badmouthed Robb bar the people who actually did"  that is bad faith.

 

The Freys are you bar of good faith here them...the ones that the surname becase a curse word on Westeros... good to know. It's like be trying to quote Cersei to show a goo decision...

7 minutes ago, frenin said:

Never argued that. I've argued your claim that Penrose's words are false, you can't. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence and there is simply no room to argue otherwise here.

 

And the books never develop or show any of such love... Renly is not potrait in good light in the books and the only two characters that praise Renly are Loras and Brienne, usually with a counter argument being made right after said praise.

 

[Arthur Peres]

3 minutes ago, Minsc said:

In the sense they changed sides quickly from Stannis back to Renly when they believed he had returned.  It isn't changing sides on someone if you do it after they are dead and without heirs.  Without Renly, at best the only cause connected to him is their continued loyality to the Tyrells which plenty continued to do.

We do have examples of loyal bannerman keep fighting after the death of said king or lord. Like I said before, we have Brotherhood without Banners that kept fighting on Robert's name. We have the Mountain Clans fighting on Ned's name. We have the Blackfish and Blackwoods still fighting under the Stark Banner, 

Renly's men did not just leave, they went to his enemies (being Joffrey or Stannis makes no diference).

[frenin]

1 minute ago, Arthur Peres said:

The Freys are you bar of good faith here them...the ones that the surname becase a curse word on Westeros... good to know. It's like be trying to quote Cersei to show a goo decision...

Again strawman.

 

2 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said:

And the books never develop or show any of such love... Renly is not potrait in good light in the books and the only two characters that praise Renly are Loras and Brienne, usually with a counter argument being made right after said praise.

Yet we know it exists which was the point discussed. 

[Minsc]

2 hours ago, Arthur Peres said:

We do have examples of loyal bannerman keep fighting after the death of said king or lord. Like I said before, we have Brotherhood without Banners that kept fighting on Robert's name. We have the Mountain Clans fighting on Ned's name. We have the Blackfish and Blackwoods still fighting under the Stark Banner, 

Renly's men did not just leave, they went to his enemies (being Joffrey or Stannis makes no diference).

Ned still had heirs that Mountain Clans are fighting for.  Blackfish is holding out of spite and wanting a last stand.  The Blackwoods are literally only holding out because it is the Brackens besieging them.  Once Jaime takes charge they bend the knee.  It has nothing to do with Stark loyalty, instead it is just another saga in their feud.

The BWB is only nominally fighting for Robert's name, rather they are fighting for the Smallfolk. 

Renly's men either stayed with his in-laws or his brother, whom they argued was his heir.  Furthermore, they went back to him when they believed he had returned.

Comparing Renly to Robb is a poor comparision as Robb had heirs.

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

8 hours ago, Arthur Peres said:

Blackfish entered in the war together with Robb, he wasn't on the Riverlands at the start, he was in the Vale.

Blackfish had no son, his only family was Edmure and he was more than willing to let the Freys hang him before he surrender his castle. 

Blackfish had all the reasons to surrender, a lost cause, his family was hostage and he still kept fighting.

You can't be serious. The Blackfish fathered no children. Who is the closest person to the Blackfish? I'll tell you : Catelyn Tully. His niece who he clearly loved. Who was murdered, in cold blood. But more than that, Robb was his damn family. His beloved niece's son. I feel like you've badly misunderstood the Blackfish. Also, didn't Cortney Penrose act similarly. Weren't these both thr people the respective Kings chose as castellans? Almost like they chose the people who loved then best...