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Why is Renly seemingly disliked in the community?


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2 hours ago, Bloodraven’s Spider said:

Your right Stannis has definitely been acting the king as well. But thats not the topic at hand. And if Renly wasn’t playing the king too he would be under his elder brother’s command. If Stannis was the youngest he would have easily supported Renly’s claim because it would have been his duty. 

Easily? If only we had a comparable example to prove that:

Though the truth is a bitter draught at times. Aerys? If you only knew . . . that was a hard choosing. My blood or my liege. My brother or my king." He grimaced.

And that's with the King threatened his brother's life. You're saying he'd easily support Renly's claim while Renly doesn't know or believe in the incest theory? Bear in mind stannis refused to communicate with anyone after leaving KL, commandeered ships that came close by and started raising troops while Robert was still alive. 

2 hours ago, Bloodraven’s Spider said:

You can’t say for certain he wouldnt have shed minimal blood. If he made it to KL most like he takes the City but hes gonna have to shed blood. Be it gold cloaks or Cersei, people will die. 

He was letting the Lannisters and Starks duke it out while he effectively slow walked his army up the Rose Road starving KL. If he encircles the circle with no option of relief 

2 hours ago, Bloodraven’s Spider said:

Jaime actually pulled it all. His parlay with Edmure/Tytos is some of the most remarkable shit the realm has ever seen. Tywin would have just steamrolled them (maybe not riverrun cuz technically the house is now in the Lannister name so why destroy it). Raventree Hall would have been put to the torch if it was Tywin its people with it. Jaime managed to secure both without a droplet of blood.

How was the siege of RR that remarkable? Don't get me wrong he properly leveraged his / Tywin's reputation to avoid bloodshed, but he outnumbered the garrison 20-1 (~4000 to 200) and he'd only have lost Freys and maybe some Riverlord troops to do it. Karyl Vance makes it clear that Raventree will surrender to literally anyone but Bracken.

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1 hour ago, Minsc said:

I don't know if it was here or reddit, but I once saw someone argue that Stannis is unique genius in realizing the value of archers because there is a single mention of archers training on Dragonstone while that is never mentioned for Renly and others so their archers must not train.

That sounds like Reddit, Stannis circlejerk there is umbereable.

 

 

4 hours ago, Bloodraven’s Spider said:

Renly is appealing to other lords because he has a royal name & blood/has power of storms end and storm lords behind him/now the Tyrell alliance. He would obviously look attractive not on a physical basis but political with all the power behind him. If he knew what he was doing he wouldnt have moved at a snails pace... KL was ripe for the taking..

He knew what he was doing.

 

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"A pity you let the Knight of Flowers slip through your pretty fingers. Still, Renly has other concerns besides us. Our father at Harrenhal, Robb Stark at Riverrun . . . were I he, I would do much as he is doing. Make my progress, flaunt my power for the realm to see, watch, wait. Let my rivals contend while I bide my own sweet time. If Stark defeats us, the south will fall into Renly's hands like a windfall from the gods, and he'll not have lost a man. And if it goes the other way, he can descend on us while we are weakened."

 

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“This is folly,” Catelyn said sharply. “Lord Tywin sits at Harrenhal with twenty thousand swords. The remnants of the Kingslayer’s army have regrouped at the Golden Tooth, another Lannister host gathers beneath the shadow of Casterly Rock, and Cersei and her son hold King’s Landing and your precious Iron Throne. You each name yourself king, yet the kingdom bleeds, and no one lifts a sword to defend it but my son.” “Your son has won a few battles. I shall win the war. The Lannisters can wait my pleasure.”

 

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I agree with the common consensus, Renly was the best of the Baratheons and probably the best choice for the Realm. Its refreshing because he gets a lot of heat in most of the other threads. 

If the toxic Lannister / Tyrell alliance can bring a temporary peace then so could Renly and the Tyrells.  Yes, I know Renly and Mace are not Tywin but I believe they would do a better job then most people want to admit and with the combination of Rowan/Redwyne/Tarley I think they would be just fine until Dany/Faegon/The Others show up. 

3 hours ago, Trigger Warning said:

Stannis charges off to King's Landing with potentially two enemy armies in the field close enough to relieve the city, no supplies to feed the city and further more intends to assault it by staging an amphibious assault directly under the walls and even the citadel, is subsequently absolutely slapped about by the relief army = military genius.

Don't get me wrong I like Stannis but I have read people legitimately argue, not that Stannis should but that he would/could win at Stormsend if he fought Renly's Army.....

Renly's plan was sound and Kingslanding would have opened up the red carpet for him and his supplies if it wasn't for that shadow baby / deus ex machina. Also people always argue that the story would end in 2 books if Renly lived but it would only replace the hated Joffery / Lannister regime with the more likable Renly / Tyrell regime. Stannis, Tywin, Rob, Euron Dany, Faegon and the others to name a few would still be in the field for king Renly to deal with.

 

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11 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

This question interests me especially since I don't believe Renly had to crown himself to defend himself against the Lannisters. He could have asked Stannis to crown himself and he and his followers could have supported him. He could have just holed up inside his castle, calling his banners and preparing for war without actually throwing the first stone. Lysa got through with remaining neutral even after she wanted to kill Joffrey's uncle. The step to make himself king is pretty radical

I agree Renly and the Tyrels might have been a little rash and could have waited to see how the pieces landed but if he supported Stannis would Renly lose the Tyrell support? Would the Tyrells sit and wait or play the long game? If Renly and the Stormlords stayed neutral would Stannis even leave Dragonstone with 5K men? If he gave Stannis the "Hightower bare minimum support" and the Tyrells stayed neutral, best case scenario would be Stannis shadow babies Joff and Stannis dies on the Blackwater. Then Renly would be the rightful heir (twincest) and not have to usurp Stannis and maybe get some better PR on this forum. Otherwise if Stannis and the Florents take KL, the Tyrells are not going to want to stay neutral for long. Renly would have much more momentum and good will taking KL from Joffrey them Stannis in the first place.

 

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1 hour ago, The Merling King said:

I agree Renly and the Tyrels might have been a little rash and could have waited to see how the pieces landed but if he supported Stannis would Renly lose the Tyrell support? Would the Tyrells sit and wait or play the long game? If Renly and the Stormlords stayed neutral would Stannis even leave Dragonstone with 5K men? If he gave Stannis the "Hightower bare minimum support" and the Tyrells stayed neutral, best case scenario would be Stannis shadow babies Joff and Stannis dies on the Blackwater. Then Renly would be the rightful heir (twincest) and not have to usurp Stannis and maybe get some better PR on this forum. Otherwise if Stannis and the Florents take KL, the Tyrells are not going to want to stay neutral for long. Renly would have much more momentum and good will taking KL from Joffrey them Stannis in the first place.

Renly is the one who wanted to be king. If he had wanted the Tyrells and his Reach buddies to support Stannis or to stand with him against the Lannisters in an attempt to wrest the regency for the Lannisters and install Renly there, they should have been able to reach an agreement.

Margaery could have married Renly, Shireen could have been betrothed to Willas, and if push came to shove Stannis could have replaced Selyse with Margaery.

If the Lannisters are as loathed in the Reach as they seem to be in ACoK in Renly's camp - because of the Sack and the murder of Aerys II, one assumes, as well as because of the Loras-Gregor incident - then they are not likely to actively turn against Stannis if Renly were to back him. After all, they are willing to fight with Renly against them, and only side with the Lannisters when Stannis has Renly killed and they get the offer to marry Margaery to Joffrey.

But my overall point there is not that one can speculate about those things - I'd actually like to know. I'd like to know what the people around Renly and he himself thought when they decided to make him king because I think this was a risky and very unusual move.

Renly himself is understandable there - he emulates Robert - but do all the Reach lords and Stormlords (especially the latter) just think defying the succession to this degree is a great idea? Don't Robert's old Stormlander buddies know that they at best stealing the birthright of his children and at worst kill them process of their theft?

In a sense that's like half the North helping Rickon stealing Winterfell from Robb's children.

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8 hours ago, Bloodraven’s Spider said:

Yes... Jaime would be a good king. Hes a completely different person after he loses his hand and his father died. He managed to take riverrun and raven tree hall with words and not blood. Hes trying to to the best thing for his house and the people 

This is an odd statement to make given your opinion on Renly

 

  1. Renly could have just steam rolled Stannis who had Renly's castle under siege, instead he chose to talk to his brother to try to settle things amicably
  2. He made Cat stay to watch the battle in an effort to further avoid bloodshed against Robb

 

So basically you think 34 year old Jaime would make a good King because, after getting captured and losing a hand, he finally learnt that rushing head first into battle is bad. Surely 21 year old Renly is the better King since he already knew that, he did not have to learn such a lesson the hard way, with thousands of casualties, as a result.

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1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Renly is the one who wanted to be king.

We actually don't know that. We don't know if it was the Tyrells or Renly's idea to crown him. Season 1 of the show says it was the Tyrells, but the books don't really give us confirmation either way.

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If he had wanted the Tyrells and his Reach buddies to support Stannis or to stand with him against the Lannisters in an attempt to wrest the regency for the Lannisters and install Renly there, they should have been able to reach an agreement.

How? The books have been very, very clear about how others see Stannis. How there is a perception of him holding grudges and being unable to work with others.

Mace, Tarly, Redwyne are all older than Stannis. Why would they want to spend the rest of their lives serving a King like Stannis? One who holds grudges and has shown that he will still punish people who have served him. A King whose personality grates on others.

It is one thing going to war for Renly, were they know Renly, get along with Renly, can trust that they will be adequately rewarded and prosper in his new regime. It is quite another to do so for Stannis. It is likely simply not worth the personal risk to themselves to make Stannis King as it is to do the same for Renly.

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Margaery could have married Renly, Shireen could have been betrothed to Willas, and if push came to shove Stannis could have replaced Selyse with Margaery.

Not once does Stannis offer such a compromise. You are making assumptions that just don't seem to be in Stannis' character.

In the prologue were we first meet Stannis he is told to marry his daughter to Lord Arryn

What of Lady Arryn? If the queen murdered her husband, surely she will want justice for him. She has a young son, Jon Arryn's heir. If you were to betroth Shireen to him—"
"The boy is weak and sickly," Lord Stannis objected. "Even his father saw how it was, when he asked me to foster him on Dragonstone.
 
He rejects it out of hand, does not even try when such a union would make Stannis a genuine contender. A big part of Stannis' character is his righteousness, he is going to be King his way or not at all. Certain actions he will be able to justify himself to do; such as the assassination of Renly, his lack of action to help Robert, but he will not go cap in hand to lesser men begging for help.
 
 
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If the Lannisters are as loathed in the Reach as they seem to be in ACoK in Renly's camp

Two things

  1. Joffrey and his siblings are Baratheons, not Lannisters
  2. How the people in Renly's camp feel about the Lannisters after they have rebelled is going to be vastly different to how they felt before. War and Propaganda go hand in hand.

Though I'm looking through those camp chapters and I don't see anything too bad, certainly not worth them being 'loathed'. Can you quote the characters in Renly's camp who loathe the Lannisters and what they say? I suspect it either does not exist or is very a very exaggerated claim on your part.

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But my overall point there is not that one can speculate about those things - I'd actually like to know. I'd like to know what the people around Renly and he himself thought when they decided to make him king because I think this was a risky and very unusual move.

No doubt they thought it risky. Stannis is a bigger risk, Renly at least comes to the table than more than 5k, that his reign would not be battering heads with the Lords he disagrees with and that they will all share in Renly's spoils, the Tyrells especially with the marriage alliance.

 

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8 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Renly is the one who wanted to be king. If he had wanted the Tyrells and his Reach buddies to support Stannis or to stand with him against the Lannisters in an attempt to wrest the regency for the Lannisters and install Renly there, they should have been able to reach an agreement.

Margaery could have married Renly, Shireen could have been betrothed to Willas, and if push came to shove Stannis could have replaced Selyse with Margaery.

If the Lannisters are as loathed in the Reach as they seem to be in ACoK in Renly's camp - because of the Sack and the murder of Aerys II, one assumes, as well as because of the Loras-Gregor incident - then they are not likely to actively turn against Stannis if Renly were to back him. After all, they are willing to fight with Renly against them, and only side with the Lannisters when Stannis has Renly killed and they get the offer to marry Margaery to Joffrey.

But my overall point there is not that one can speculate about those things - I'd actually like to know. I'd like to know what the people around Renly and he himself thought when they decided to make him king because I think this was a risky and very unusual move.

Renly himself is understandable there - he emulates Robert - but do all the Reach lords and Stormlords (especially the latter) just think defying the succession to this degree is a great idea? Don't Robert's old Stormlander buddies know that they at best stealing the birthright of his children and at worst kill them process of their theft?

In a sense that's like half the North helping Rickon stealing Winterfell from Robb's children.

 

Any scenario where Renly is even in a reasonable position to back Stannis requires Stannis to declare his intentions before Renly is crowned but beyond that Stannis is an objectively worse kingly prospect for both Renly and the Tyrells so what would be the point in supporting him, the third in line over Renly the fourth when they are already willing to usurp both Joffrey and Tommen? Renly believes he'd make a good king and believes Cersei is a threat to him, the opportunity to control Joffrey was lost when Ned refused him and rebelling to remove the Lannisters from power whilst keeping Joffrey or Tommen as king may bite him in the arse years down the line. The Baratheon dynasty is one king deep and Renly is the brother of the king, his opponents and rivals will use his legitimacy against him and even his children for some years but it's not going to shatter the concept of succession in Westeros if anything it's not even particularly surprising after the old dynasty was violently removed from power no less than 2 decades ago, eventually everything will return to normal until whatever next succession crisis and period of unrest rears its head. 

The Lannisters are generally disliked if not hated throughout Westeros, the Starks and Tullys are in open rebellion. No one will expect Dorne to support Tywin Lannister's royal proxy and the Vale remains aloof. Renly is well liked by the people and the lords of the Stormlands and Reach with enough connection to the previous king to give him some legitimacy, I don't think it was ever that much of a risk when he had such overwhelming support to form such a strong power bloc. 

The lords of the Stormlands may have liked Robert but he's been gone for years, they don't know Joffrey  but they do know he's completely controlled by Lannisters at court after Robert dies and the Lannisters will likely eventually exert their influence in the Stormlands. Renly is their lord and supporting him in his rebellion could provide huge returns, I think you're overestimating the value of the sentimentality the Stormlanders held for Robert when it comes to his children, the son is not the father just ask Alexander IV. 
 
If Robb's children were generally disliked, being puppeted by their non Stark mother and grandfather and fighting multiple rebellions I could see half the North helping Rickon take Winterfell too. 

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16 hours ago, Minsc said:

What do you mean Renly absolutely followed Robert.  Renly has no obligation to follow a middle child that has no authority over him so he didn't listen to Stannis.

It really wasn't.  Jaime won playing a stacked hand given to him directly by Tywin.  All he offered was being less stupid than the Freys and not being a Bracken for the Blackwoods.

Only because his father and allies had already secured that deck with the Red Wedding.  No Red Wedding, then Jaime is outside trying to scratch his arse with a golden hand at Riverrun.

Stannis is technically next in line as heir after Robert... You just cant admit Jaime pulled off something great lol. 

16 hours ago, Trigger Warning said:

And would have been riper when he arrived as intended. The people would probably throw the gates open for him when he showed up with the bounty of Highgarden as the city was already rioting over the famine. Why rush to action and a bloody siege when you're growing stronger as your enemies grow weaker, the only reason he should rush is because Stannis has a magic shadow assassin he knows nothing about. If you can defeat your enemies without unsheathing your sword then you do it. 

If the people of KL would have willingly open the gates for him and his army even more the reason to move quicker. Renly was a idiot...

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14 hours ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

Easily? If only we had a comparable example to prove that:

Though the truth is a bitter draught at times. Aerys? If you only knew . . . that was a hard choosing. My blood or my liege. My brother or my king." He grimaced.

And that's with the King threatened his brother's life. You're saying he'd easily support Renly's claim while Renly doesn't know or believe in the incest theory? Bear in mind stannis refused to communicate with anyone after leaving KL, commandeered ships that came close by and started raising troops while Robert was still alive. 

He was letting the Lannisters and Starks duke it out while he effectively slow walked his army up the Rose Road starving KL. If he encircles the circle with no option of relief 

How was the siege of RR that remarkable? Don't get me wrong he properly leveraged his / Tywin's reputation to avoid bloodshed, but he outnumbered the garrison 20-1 (~4000 to 200) and he'd only have lost Freys and maybe some Riverlord troops to do it. Karyl Vance makes it clear that Raventree will surrender to literally anyone but Bracken.

Stannis would have done his duty as he always done, if Renly was the elder.. He would have supported his claim, I have no doubt in my mind.

After Ned lost his head and the city smallfolk starting uprising due to inflation and food prices. Renly should have been in hot pursuit. 

And you are seriously not grasping the context of how impressive Jaime was at Riverrun and Raventree. 

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14 hours ago, frenin said:

That sounds like Reddit, Stannis circlejerk there is umbereable.

 

 

He knew what he was doing.

 

 

 

He didn’t know shit. I admit he played the game way better then Ned. But its also his pussy self leaving in the middle of the night that really caused him to be all alone in KL.

 

PEople wanted to know why Renly is disliked. Then when someone tells them. Me in this case, everyone’s jumps and freaks out lol. You asked so I answered. Can we take a poll of this question. I’d be interested ion hearing the communities:

Fuck Renly. 

If Renly was elder to Stannis, would Stannis have supported his claim?

I vote yes 100%...

@Minsc

@Universal Sword Donor

@Trigger Warning

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9 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

We actually don't know that. We don't know if it was the Tyrells or Renly's idea to crown him. Season 1 of the show says it was the Tyrells, but the books don't really give us confirmation either way.

We know that insofar as Renly himself gives a speech that he wants to be king and is the man best suited to be king. It isn't Loras who gives that speech, and Mace, Garlan, and Willas are not even with Renly, nor are any of the Tyrell uncles and cousins (or at least we don't see them). That shows that Renly is the guy to be watched there. You are not a pretender to the crown if you don't want to, especially if you are not a child.

Also, it is quite clear that it was Renly's plan back in AGoT to replace Cersei with Margaery as Robert's queen. That shows that he was driving force, the plotter, there.

9 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

How? The books have been very, very clear about how others see Stannis. How there is a perception of him holding grudges and being unable to work with others.

Mace, Tarly, Redwyne are all older than Stannis. Why would they want to spend the rest of their lives serving a King like Stannis? One who holds grudges and has shown that he will still punish people who have served him. A King whose personality grates on others.

The question I asked is not what these people want, but what Renly wanted when he left court. He and Loras could have gone to Dragonstone to take counsel with Stannis before doing anything else. My point isn't that the Tyrells may have had difficulties following Stannis - I assume they did - but that they may have come around doing that if Renly had taken the lead in this enterprise.

They could have still decided to leave Dragonstone after talking to Stannis when the men outright rejected their help or was unwilling to pay the price. But even I don't think Stannis is as stupid/inflexible as to reject help when it is offered. He would have gladly accepted Renly's help if the man had offered it.

9 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Not once does Stannis offer such a compromise. You are making assumptions that just don't seem to be in Stannis' character.

In the prologue were we first meet Stannis he is told to marry his daughter to Lord Arryn

Sure, sure, Stannis is too stupid to actually ask people for help - but that isn't the scenario/possibility I'm considering. I want to know why Renly wanted to be king/when that decision was made. And if it wasn't yet made the moment Ned rejected Renly's offer (or secretly even before that) then I really would like to know why Renly never thought about talking to Stannis first before he made to call to crown himself ... or what he would have done had he known about the twincest before deciding to crown himself.

If Renly had reached out to Stannis, telling him about Robert's death and the coup in KL, etc. he would have also heard from him that Cersei's children aren't Robert's, that Jon Arryn was murdered, etc. That should have had some impact on his policies if he was not already determined to be king himself at that point.

How Stannis can haggle if he has to, when people actually are willing to join him we see with Renly's men joining him and we see later still in the North.

The fact that the guy complains that nobody is joining him in the Prologue when he has (1) crowned himself in the privacy of his castle without announcing it to the world, and (2) has not told anybody about the twincest yet, is just beyond me. That makes no sense at all and actually is a plot hole. The Arryn betrothal is a great idea, especially in light of the fact that Stannis believes - and Lysa seems to be of the same opinion - that the Lannisters murdered Jon Arryn.

The point for Stannis to reject such normal political alliances would have been when nobody reacted to his letters after he told him the truth and that he wanted to be king. But not making Lysa an offer before she knew why/that he wanted to be king is just utter silliness. I mean, the man behaves as if it is normal after the death of a king to do homage to his younger brother as the new king rather than the actual heir - the late king's eldest son.

9 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Two things

  1. Joffrey and his siblings are Baratheons, not Lannisters
  2. How the people in Renly's camp feel about the Lannisters after they have rebelled is going to be vastly different to how they felt before. War and Propaganda go hand in hand.

Though I'm looking through those camp chapters and I don't see anything too bad, certainly not worth them being 'loathed'. Can you quote the characters in Renly's camp who loathe the Lannisters and what they say? I suspect it either does not exist or is very a very exaggerated claim on your part.

I was mainly thinking of how Brienne, Tarly, and Rowan seem to feel about the Lannisters - as well as 'King Renly' himself, who wanted to replace Cersei and who thought the Lannisters were merciless. It might that I'm making too much of that, but I really can't see Renly being a great guy being the only reason why they would support him in his rebellion.

And as I said, the biggest problem in this regard are the Stormlords - they are fucking/betraying Robert's own children by following Renly.

9 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

No doubt they thought it risky. Stannis is a bigger risk, Renly at least comes to the table than more than 5k, that his reign would not be battering heads with the Lords he disagrees with and that they will all share in Renly's spoils, the Tyrells especially with the marriage alliance.

Again, the issue is that there is little to no build-up for 'King Renly' the follower department. We know more about how Daemon Blackfyre got support for his rebellion then we know how Renly achieved it.

2 hours ago, Trigger Warning said:

Any scenario where Renly is even in a reasonable position to back Stannis requires Stannis to declare his intentions before Renly is crowned but beyond that Stannis is an objectively worse kingly prospect for both Renly and the Tyrells so what would be the point in supporting him, the third in line over Renly the fourth when they are already willing to usurp both Joffrey and Tommen? Renly believes he'd make a good king and believes Cersei is a threat to him, the opportunity to control Joffrey was lost when Ned refused him and rebelling to remove the Lannisters from power whilst keeping Joffrey or Tommen as king may bite him in the arse years down the line. The Baratheon dynasty is one king deep and Renly is the brother of the king, his opponents and rivals will use his legitimacy against him and even his children for some years but it's not going to shatter the concept of succession in Westeros if anything it's not even particularly surprising after the old dynasty was violently removed from power no less than 2 decades ago, eventually everything will return to normal until whatever next succession crisis and period of unrest rears its head.

Oh, I know all that. The point I made was that I want to know when and why the decision for 'King Renly' was made and why they didn't consider to include Stannis in their plans (or rather Renly in his plans) if, for instance, the decision for 'King Renly' was only made back at Highgarden, not when they left.

Renly having issues with the Lannisters could also have resulted in him raising an army and wresting the regency from Cersei/Tywin. Considering that Renly knew Stannis was no Lannister buddy, either, he could have worked him on such a thing. And if he had reached out then he would have learned about the twincest and would have then either decided to help make Stannis king ... or to not bother and claim the throne for himself.

If we assume that it was the case (what we don't know) that Renly wanted to be king from the moment Ned rejected his offer - or perhaps even the moment he realized Robert would die - then such questions are moot. But we don't know, because the author never addressed them.

I'd also know how many of the Reach lords and Stormlords actually felt about 'King Renly' - did they think it a great idea? Did some of them even push Renly to take the crown because he looked so much like Robert? Were others wary and not exactly keen to become usurpers? And so on and so forth. That they depict a united front when dealing with Cat and Stannis makes sense - but that doesn't mean they were all on the same page when there were no outsiders/potential enemies among them.

2 hours ago, Trigger Warning said:

The lords of the Stormlands may have liked Robert but he's been gone for years, they don't know Joffrey  but they do know he's completely controlled by Lannisters at court after Robert dies and the Lannisters will likely eventually exert their influence in the Stormlands. Renly is their lord and supporting him in his rebellion could provide huge returns, I think you're overestimating the value of the sentimentality the Stormlanders held for Robert when it comes to his children, the son is not the father just ask Alexander IV.

If that were so, I'd like to know that this was the case. The Stormlands are next to KL, Robert cannot have been 'gone' in a meaningful way. The Stormlanders would have come to every KL tourney Robert hosted, and when he wasn't that fat he would have also visited with whatever tourneys there were back home.

2 hours ago, Trigger Warning said:

If Robb's children were generally disliked, being puppeted by their non Stark mother and grandfather and fighting multiple rebellions I could see half the North helping Rickon take Winterfell too. 

I don't think that Robert's children are 'generally disliked' by the Stormlanders - there is nothing to indicate this. Only incestuous unions/cousin marriage (can) produce marriages where the mother is of the same house as the father. Cersei and her kin being disliked doesn't mean said dislike has to be transferred to their children.

And Joff wasn't publicly known as a second Maegor the Cruel. He was still a child, even the Kingslanders don't blame him for his cruel actions but his Hand and council - because they cut him some slack because he is a child.

If we had reason to believe Joffrey insulted the Stormlands during some kind of progress he made with his dad or something along those lines I'd agree with you there - but that's something we really should know.

As for the general question:

Historically, I think, Renly was the most popular Baratheon up until we got ADwD and Mel's POV (where it was revealed she was no evil witch leading Stannis astray) and, especially, Stephen Dillane's performance of the man in the show. That is what caused the rush of in 'Stannis fandom'.

Prior to that the consensus was that Stannis did the right thing with the wildlings there, but that his previous history was horrible and he wasn't a nice guy. We had him as one of the fake saviors/lies to be slain, and many expected that he would eventually sacrifice Shireen to wake dragons from stone. Lots of people imagined that him settling at the Nightfort with Mel would mean he would become a second Night's King, the leader of the Others, and other such weird ideas.

Renly was certainly viewed as a usurper, but also as the guy who was best suited for the crown and many people actually disliked Stannis for murdering his brother.

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10 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

This is an odd statement to make given your opinion on Renly

 

  1. Renly could have just steam rolled Stannis who had Renly's castle under siege, instead he chose to talk to his brother to try to settle things amicably
  2. He made Cat stay to watch the battle in an effort to further avoid bloodshed against Robb

 

So basically you think 34 year old Jaime would make a good King because, after getting captured and losing a hand, he finally learnt that rushing head first into battle is bad. Surely 21 year old Renly is the better King since he already knew that, he did not have to learn such a lesson the hard way, with thousands of casualties, as a result.

firstly Jaime had nothing to do with the original discussion at hand but yes I do think Jaime would be a better king. 

 

And as you say Renly coul have just steamrolled him but he didn’t cuz he’s wrong. He shouldN’t have been trying to fight Stannis in the first place which is why he didn’t attack.

This is my main point, but no one wants understand logic, HE SHOULD HAVE YIELDED TO STANNIS AS HE WAS THE ELDER!!! Pathfaces rhymes about under the sea and birds eating you is about power and dragons in old Valyria. In Valyria of old Renly would have won because yes even though he was younger he had more power and strength. But in Westeros, the elder comes first. Ned wasn’t expected to marry Cat but after Brandon’s death its Ned who marries her not Benjen. 

He was hoping the elder brother would understand and still support him. Obviously Stannis doesnt appreciate that and winds up getting him assassinated. 

 

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10 minutes ago, Bloodraven’s Spider said:

He didn’t know shit.

He didn't know shit because he didn't act as you wanted which is the same way Jaime did??

 

10 minutes ago, Bloodraven’s Spider said:

I admit he played the game way better then Ned.

And Stannis.

 

10 minutes ago, Bloodraven’s Spider said:

But its also his pussy self leaving in the middle of the night that really caused him to be all alone in KL.

He gave him an out, Ned rather suicide, he wasn't sticking for that, at least he gave Ned a chance.. not like Stannis.

 

 

10 minutes ago, Bloodraven’s Spider said:

PEople wanted to know why Renly is disliked. Then when someone tells them. Me in this case, everyone’s jumps and freaks out lol. You asked so I answered. Can we take a poll of this question. I’d be interested ion hearing the communities:

If your answer was justified no one would answer you, you are given the quotes that disprove your words and you still rather your bias. No wonder why people jumps.

But it's also obvious, 90% of the people who dislike Renly are Stannis's stans.

 

 

Quote

This is my main point, but no one wants understand logic, HE SHOULD HAVE YIELDED TO STANNIS AS HE WAS THE ELDER!!! Pathfaces rhymes about under the sea and birds eating you is about power and dragons in old Valyria. In Valyria of old Renly would have won because yes even though he was younger he had more power and strength. But in Westeros, the elder comes first. Ned wasn’t expected to marry Cat but after Brandon’s death its Ned who marries her not Benjen. 

He should've picked Joffrey then, as he was the firstborn of the elder brother. You know, that one over whose the little brothers are fighting over.

 

 

 

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Just now, frenin said:

He didn't know shit because he didn't act as you wanted which is the same way Jaime did??

 

And Stannis.

 

He gave him an out, Ned rather suicide, he wasn't sticking for that, at least he gave Ned a chance.. not like Stannis.

 

 

If your answer was justified no one would answer you, you are given the quotes that disprove your words and you still rather your bias. No wonder why people jumps.

But it's also obvious, 90% of the people who dislike Renly are Stannis's stans.

Fair Stannis did play the game better then both Ned and Renly. He’s still alive and now actually making a real impact for the people of Westeros. And thats fair Renly did give him the chance because it was suicide like to stay there.

It has to do with the basic customs and traditions of Westeros, simple as that. Stannis the elder. Enough said. Can’t spell Stannis without Stan (I’m not a major Stannis fan) though I do like him. I dont think Stannis would make a good king either if that helps ease the pain I’m causing you.

for 5 seconds just think and pause if Renly said, “By rights and laws Stannis is next in line i support his claim“ - and the the rest of the storm lords and the reach rise up for Stannis .

Thats to crazy to believe? 

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6 minutes ago, Bloodraven’s Spider said:

Fair Stannis did play the game better then both Ned and Renly. He’s still alive and now actually making a real impact for the people of Westeros. And thats fair Renly did give him the chance because it was suicide like to stay there.

It has to do with the basic customs and traditions of Westeros, simple as that. Stannis the elder. Enough said. Can’t spell Stannis without Stan (I’m not a major Stannis fan) though I do like him. I dont think Stannis would make a good king either if that helps ease the pain I’m causing you.

for 5 seconds just think and pause if Renly said, “By rights and laws Stannis is next in line i support his claim“ - and the the rest of the storm lords and the reach rise up for Stannis .

Thats to crazy to believe? 

It seems that as far as Renly is concerned Stannis is also trying to jump the line of succession by overriding Joffrey, Tommen and Mercylle(sp?). Remember Renly, like most of westeros, doesn't seem to believe Stannis's letter and as such doesn't see Stannis as the rightful heir. 

If Stannis is trying to steal the crown from the rightful King Joffrey then why shouldn't Renly who is better suited for the job? 

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16 minutes ago, Bloodraven’s Spider said:

Fair Stannis did play the game better then both Ned and Renly.

He's autoexiled in the North after having lost at the Blackwater.

 

16 minutes ago, Bloodraven’s Spider said:

He’s still alive and now actually making a real impact for the people of Westeros.

Being alive is no playing the game better, being alive and in power is. Stannis certainly isn't. Ned  overthrew a 200 years old dynasty and ruled the North for 15 years, again bias.  Renly's death impacted Westeros, for bad, and Ned is one of the most relevant figures in Westeros's history...

 

 

16 minutes ago, Bloodraven’s Spider said:

It has to do with the basic customs and traditions of Westeros, simple as that. Stannis the elder. Enough said. Can’t spell Stannis without Stan (I’m not a major Stannis fan) though I do like him. I dont think Stannis would make a good king either if that helps ease the pain I’m causing you.

Stannis is the elder, but Robert left two legal heirs, Joffrey and Tommen, ie Stannis is also considered an usurper and Renly is not giving him anything.

 

 

16 minutes ago, Bloodraven’s Spider said:

for 5 seconds just think and pause if Renly said, “By rights and laws Stannis is next in line i support his claim“ - and the the rest of the storm lords and the reach rise up for Stannis .

Thats to crazy to believe? 

Yes, didn't you read the parlay??  Three things were clear.

 

- People  don't believe his story about the twincest, so Stannis is just another usurper.

- His story came too late regardless.

- No one likes Stannis.

No, no one was backing Stannis, why do you think no one did?? Storm's End and Highgarden backed Renly, Winterfell and Riverrun swore to Robb, King's Landing Casterly Rock and Sunspear backed Joffrey and the Eyrie was aloof.  Don'ty ou see the pattern??

Nor have you solved the main issue, why would Renly back Stannis if he made clear that he didn't believe him??

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52 minutes ago, Bloodraven’s Spider said:

Stannis is technically next in line as heir after Robert... You just cant admit Jaime pulled off something great lol. 

If the people of KL would have willingly open the gates for him and his army even more the reason to move quicker. Renly was a idiot...

 

Did you just not read what I wrote? The longer he takes the more desperate they'll be. 

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1 hour ago, Bloodraven’s Spider said:

But its also his pussy self leaving in the middle of the night that really caused him to be all alone in KL.

Are you talking about Renly or Stannis here?

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1 hour ago, Bloodraven’s Spider said:

It has to do with the basic customs and traditions of Westeros, simple as that. Stannis the elder. Enough said. Can’t spell Stannis without Stan (I’m not a major Stannis fan) though I do like him. I dont think Stannis would make a good king either if that helps ease the pain I’m causing you.

for 5 seconds just think and pause if Renly said, “By rights and laws Stannis is next in line i support his claim“ - and the the rest of the storm lords and the reach rise up for Stanni

The Baratheon dynasty is one king deep, do they have a clear succession plan written in law? Obviously the Lannisters lean towards Salic law, primogeniture because its in there favor and the Targaryens did set some precedents, but they also showed that the succession of the the iron throne can differ from Westerosi traditions and there were some instances when the Targaryen king basically chose his own heir (even under the cover of a great council) and they did skip over females and male minors when convenient. 

For historical example, the Anglo-Saxon kings didn't practice primogeniture and anyone with immediate royal blood (the dead kings sons had to potentially deal with uncles, cousins, nephews) had a claim and the Norman Dynasty also didn't practice strict primogeniture for the first 150 years. Henry 1 usurped the throne from his older brother and nephew and that turned out pretty well for England (excluding the succession, which was much more out of his control to avoid then the dance was for Viserys I) not every historical usurper is as evil as Richard III or Andronicus Konmenus or worse then the king they usurped.

Also how come no one removed Maegor or Aegon II from the kings list or put an asterix next to there name, they were usurpers but had the power to take Kings landing and the iron throne and are now legally recognized. 

Renly was best king available at the time, Stannis did not have the power or personalty to hold the realm together and Joffrey was Maegor junior.

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