Why is Renly seemingly disliked in the community?

[Bloodraven’s Spider]

1 minute ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

I didn't necessarily dispute that. I said we know that it wasn't an easy decision. He literally tells us it was difficult. And again if he's the youngest we don't know if he would have known about the incest or not. He would not have supported Renly against Joffrey if he didn't know about it.

 

Why? Lannisters and Starks duking it out. Civil unrest and riots inside a powered keg, poorly defended capital? He can wait for it to blow up and then show up with security and food without losing a soul, which is exactly what he was doing.

I am very well read on those victories. They're just not that impressive. Overwhelming numbers and the lord of the castle / house as captive. He manages to take it without a fight. That's not meant to show him as a genius, it's meant to show us how stupid the Freys were, how powerless / not respected that Daven was, and Jaime moving beyond thinking with his sword. Daven says as much to Jaime when he mentions Kevan:

Would that he'd remained, I could have used his counsel. Our friends of Frey would not have dared vex Ser Kevan the way that they've been vexing me."

And again, it's not even like it's a new strategy. He basically just does what Tywin tried to teach to Joffrey:

"Most," agreed Lord Tywin. "Riverrun remains, but so long as Walder Frey holds Edmure Tully hostage, the Blackfish dare not mount a threat. Jason Mallister and Tytos Blackwood will fight on for honor's sake, but the Freys can keep the Mallisters penned up at Seagard, and with the right inducement Jonos Bracken can be persuaded to change his allegiance and attack the Blackwoods. In the end they will bend the knee, yes. I mean to offer generous terms. Any castle that yields to us will be spared, save one."

Be quiet, Cersei. Joffrey, when your enemies defy you, you must serve them steel and fire. When they go to their knees, however, you must help them back to their feet. Elsewise no man will ever bend the knee to you.

Granted Jaime's not there but he's well aware of what his father has done and would have done. In the aforementioned conversation, no one disputes what Tywin says except Joffrey, and we know him to be a callow, cruel moron.

And again with Raventree hall, Karyl Vance told him all he needed to do was show up.

These victories are not really that impressive. They are meant to show Jaime's character becoming deeper and changing for the better.

To many what if’s. Not worth the time. Pass it with a cup of mead with me my good lord. 
 

as for renly and city of KL. We know that in ACOK Robb has offered terms to KL. While renly slowly makes his way to KL.

 Robb isn’t marching in fact he’s losing his river land lords as twyin burns down the river lands. And they leave. Now does renly know? Robb is essentially in a corner? He can’t march on harrenhal/isn’t going to KL/not marching on the rock/his forces with Roose separate from he/And does he know about Jaime being captured? If he knew all of this he should have all the more reason to move onto the city. Cercei played the game correctly. You strike as quick as Possible while your enemy is weak. If renly marched on KL instead of feasting with lords and having balls. He would be on the throne because he easily would have been able to sack the city.

Thats why renly sucks I end my case 

[Universal Sword Donor]

9 minutes ago, Bloodraven’s Spider said:

To many what if’s. Not worth the time. Pass it with a cup of mead with me my good lord. 

Don't have to. We have Stannis' history and statement. Take your mead as you please.

Quote

as for renly and city of KL. We know that in ACOK Robb has offered terms to KL. While renly slowly makes his way to KL.

 Robb isn’t marching in fact he’s losing his river land lords as twyin burns down the river lands. And they leave. Now does renly know? Robb is essentially in a corner? He can’t march on harrenhal/isn’t going to KL/not marching on the rock/his forces with Roose separate from he/And does he know about Jaime being captured? If he knew all of this he should have all the more reason to move onto the city. Cercei played the game correctly. You strike as quick as Possible while your enemy is weak. If renly marched on KL instead of feasting with lords and having balls. He would be on the throne because he easily would have been able to sack the city.

Thats why renly sucks I end my case 

Robb offered terms Renly found unacceptable. Renly sent back a counteroffer that Robb would have been wise to take. He considered Robb and the Lannisters enemies and would until they bent the knee. Rushing to take the capital just wastes men and lets his enemies keep their strength. He gains little by holding the throne for a bit longer while still having to fight a three-sided war with armies that were more or less intact. By waiting, he lets his enemies make mistakes and kill each other off. He'll have to split up his massive army before he gets to KL and he's going to be facing a storming a city with overextended supply lines and an enemy perfectly placed to disrupt it, leaving his men starving to take a city that's also starving.

It's a pretty simple, effective strategy

[Trigger Warning]

The city gets weaker the longer Renly takes, so he should hurry up and take it while it's weak so that he can be king sooner and face stronger enemies. 

Real headscratcher that one. 

[Orm]

8 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Yeah, okay, but let's not try to entangle the Targaryen incest shit. Aenys and Maegor didn't have the same mother and were thus not full siblings. This is pretty much marked since Queen Visenya doesn't refer to King Aenys as 'son' - which she as his stepmother could have - but as 'nephew'.

Well, it is a patriarchal society, so the male line is important - which is why there are Baratheons and not Durrandons in the series. Orys stole banner, arms, and castle of the Durrandons and had their last scion give birth to his children - but they got his name, the Baratheon name, and didn't go by the old Durrandon name.

Which is why this is a different case than with the Lydden who became and wanted to be a Lannister. Orys Baratheon as a man did have a Targaryen father (or people believe this to be the case, even King Jaehaerys I) and thus his descendants are Targaryens the same way the Blackfyres are Targaryens going by a different name. The only difference is that Orys and his descendants don't look like prototypical Valyrians. But that doesn't change their family tree.

And Stannis is not that different from other Baratheons - in fact, the fun with Rogar's brothers is that there is much of Stannis in Rogar's brother Borys - the repressed ambition turning to poison, his desire to kill his brother and his brother's children, etc. All that we have in Stannis again when he turns against both Renly and the children Robert believed to be his - and who saw him, Stannis, as their uncle.

And if take the female into account that Princess Rhaelle is definitely more important than, say, Argella Durrandon or whatever women make up Orys' maternal ancestry.

We don't know from whom the Baratheon looks come from. Could be the Durrandon bloodline, but could also be Orys Baratheon and his non-Targaryen ancestors. He was black-haired and black-eyed which could mean he had very dark blueish/purple eyes. We don't know how the ancient Durrandons looked like, unless I'm mistaken, all we do know is that Argilac had black hair.

Unless I'm misremembering right now, we don't even know whether Argella Durrandon had black hair.

It might be that this whole 'stable black hair' thing goes back to Durran Godsgrief and his divine wife, but there is no confirmation of this so far. Could be a Baratheon trait.

Well, no. A unofficial Targaryen cadet branch took over Storm's End during the Conquest and a scion from that Targaryen cadet branch ousted the main line in 283 AC.

So the "full-sibling" argument can only be applied when it suits your views??? Normal full-siblings share and have 2 sets of grandparents. These two on the other hand ......uhh..... You see they are even more closely related than your "full-siblings" and your argument seems prejudiced here.

 

Orys literally kept everything but the Durrandon name(very smart on his part),when he did not have to, married the Durrandon heir Argella when he did not have to(maybe he was a good person or very shrewd)........If only Argilac swallowed his pride a bit then, in 283 AC we would have Robert Durrandon smashing Rhaegar Targaryen on the Trident.

Orys would have also taken the Durrandon name for himself if Argilac did not openly defy and mock Aegon and him and then proceeded to lose to him on the battlefield. Even after that Orys payed tribute to Argilac Durrandon by marrying his heir and daughter, keeping his banners and honours(not stealing them). No different than Joffrey Lydden, but Argilac got conquered and it cost him his crown and family name as attainment to Aegon.

 

The black-hair and blue eyes is the Durrandon pheno-type. Look it up. The fact the Durrandons by extension Baratheons are descended from demi-gods might have something to do with their super gene. George really hammers it home that Bobby B is Thor himself in ASOIAF.

Umm no.... Stannis is duty driven, not ambition. He was in no way wrong to off Joffrey who he knew was not his nephew and  Renly was being foolish because eventually he knew he would be king but he just had to be guy who revels in ' I have the bigger dick, bro'. Not saying that the way he was killed was ok though.

 

I am new to this forum. I cannot figure out how you guys separate or cut parts of quote yet. So sorry if it's a bit difficult to read....

[Minsc]

3 hours ago, Orm said:

Umm no.... Stannis is duty driven, not ambition. He was in no way wrong to off Joffrey who he knew was not his nephew and  Renly was being foolish because eventually he knew he would be king but he just had to be guy who revels in ' I have the bigger dick, bro'.

Stannis sure was duty driven when he abandoned Robert.  Why would Renly want to be king eventually when he can be king now?

 

3 hours ago, Orm said:

I am new to this forum. I cannot figure out how you guys separate or cut parts of quote yet. So sorry if it's a bit difficult to read....

No problem, welcome to the board.  If you highlight the text you want you can get a box entitled Quote Selection that you can click if you want to quote something while naming the individual.  You can also just click the quotion mark on top of the post box if you don't care about identify the name of the person you are quoting.  

I would just split up the quotes into different boxes aka click quote for one passage then write your response before quoting another section and so forth.

[Orm]

31 minutes ago, Minsc said:

Stannis sure was duty driven when abandoned Robert.

This statement deserves a thread of its own.....

 

32 minutes ago, Minsc said:

Why would Renly want to be king eventually when he can be king now?

 

And that right there is why Renly the Friendly had it coming .......

 

34 minutes ago, Minsc said:

No problem, welcome to the board.  If you highlight the text you want you can get a book entitled Quote Selection that you can click if you want to quote something while naming the individual.  You can also just click the quotion mark on top of the post box if you don't care about identify the name of the person you are quoting.  

I would just split up the quotes into different boxes aka click quote for one passage then write your response before quoting another section and so forth.

Thanks for the help, man.

[Universal Sword Donor]

6 hours ago, Orm said:

Minsc: Why would Renly want to be king eventually when he can be king now?

And that right there is why Renly the Friendly had it coming .......

See there are a few issues with that:

1) Belief and / or knowledge of the incest - It appears Renly didn't know about the incest, he didn't believe the incest story, and Stannis is unable to produce any evidence to prove the incest when directly asked by Renly. Since the Westerosi won't know and most won't believe, it appears to the kingdom at large that two uncles are attempting to usurp their nephew's throne, and in this light we have one man with a mostly mercenary fleet and shitty small army against a man with 80K-100K men, many of the foremost knights in the realm, and two separate regions behind him. 

From an objective Westerosi view, if you're going to pick a traitor, why would you pick the weaker one?

2) The Tyrell alliance - The Tyrell alliance was made by Renly after two attempts to remove the Lannisters from a position of influence or power (Marg as a new wife, offering Ned the 100 swords). Renly sees becoming king as a way to survive and his road to power. Stannis had cut off contact with the outside world two months prior to Robert's death so he never responded to any communication nor did he announce his intentions / truth to the world when Robert was dying. The Tyrell's are into the alliance for any number of reasons but the most identified one is that he wants his daughter to be queen and a grandson on the throne. This doesn't happen if Renly kneels to Stannis, as either the alliance is declared null and void because Renly is no longer king or because the grandchild is too far back in the line of succession (Stannis->Shireen / male heir->Renly -> Renly son.

This leaves the most powerful faction available to court the existing power structure for an identical deal.

3) Lack of communication - Stannis not communicating with anyone really kinda shit the bed for everyone. It prevents active alliance negotiation, widespread knowledge of the incest, and actual united preparation by the people who'd oppose the Lannisters. Instead he fled from the capital, remained incommunicado, and blew up every other carefully laid plan to fail spectacularly when he was lucky to have a chance at all. That he finally realizes this at the wall is a scant comfort for the average westerosi. It's not as if he couldn't have stayed in KL with a bulked up household guard either. Arryn didn't die until 

If Stannis had bothered to talk to Ned and Renly about what he thought he knew before Robert died, then the majority of the Wo5K stuff could have been avoided.

[Orm]

6 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

) Belief and / or knowledge of the incest - It appears Renly didn't know about the incest, he didn't believe the incest story, and Stannis is unable to produce any evidence to prove the incest when directly asked by Renly. Since the Westerosi won't know and most won't believe, it appears to the kingdom at large that two uncles are attempting to usurp their nephew's throne, and in this light we have one man with a mostly mercenary fleet and shitty small army against a man with 80K-100K men, many of the foremost knights in the realm, and two separate regions

The incest I believe was an open secret. Tyrion had a quote which set this up quite nicely.Jon Arryn and Stannis looked around for Bob's bastards and that made it all too clear for them the royal children are indeed not of Baratheon blood. Stannis's proof is his word because the entire realm and especially Renly knows that he doesn't lie. Moreover Ned fucking Stark supported Stannis and said it to Renly Infront of his face........ Renly knew he was usurping Stannis and his entire argument was " I have the bigger dick, bro'"

 

16 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

2) The Tyrell alliance - The Tyrell alliance was made by Renly after two attempts to remove the Lannisters from a position of influence or power (Marg as a new wife, offering Ned the 100 swords). Renly sees becoming king as a way to survive and his road to power. Stannis had cut off contact with the outside world two months prior to Robert's death so he never responded to any communication nor did he announce his intentions / truth to the world when Robert was dying. The Tyrell's are into the alliance for any number of reasons but the most identified one is that he wants his daughter to be queen and a grandson on the throne. This doesn't happen if Renly kneels to Stannis, as either the alliance is declared null and void because Renly is no longer king or because the grandchild is too far back in the line of succession (Stannis->Shireen / male heir->Renly -> Renly son.

This leaves the most powerful faction available to court

Renly sure as hell could make the Tyrells back Stannis, they were already too invested at that point to not go with Renly's choice and if he couldn't then he was a Tyrell puppet anyways..... And making Stannis king doesn't squash his chances of being king at all. Stannis is never gonna have a son at that point and that's why he offers Renly to be his heir and eventual successor........

 

23 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

3) Lack of communication - Stannis not communicating with anyone really kinda shit the bed for everyone. It prevents active alliance negotiation, widespread knowledge of the incest, and actual united preparation by the people who'd oppose the Lannisters. Instead he fled from the capital, remained incommunicado, and blew up every other carefully laid plan to fail spectacularly when he was lucky to have a chance at all. That he finally realizes this at the wall is a scant comfort for the average westerosi. It's not as if he couldn't have stayed in KL with a bulked up household guard either. Arryn didn't die until 

Agreed...... But if the events did not happen the way they did, would we have anything to argue about? Or worse would we have gotten ASOIAF?

[Universal Sword Donor]

52 minutes ago, Orm said:

The incest I believe was an open secret. Tyrion had a quote which set this up quite nicely.Jon Arryn and Stannis looked around for Bob's bastards and that made it all too clear for them the royal children are indeed not of Baratheon blood. Stannis's proof is his word because the entire realm and especially Renly knows that he doesn't lie. Moreover Ned fucking Stark supported Stannis and said it to Renly Infront of his face........ Renly knew he was usurping Stannis and his entire argument was " I have the bigger dick, bro'"

Renly pretty clearly didn't know but got his letter at Horn Hill and clearly didn't believe it. Hard to believe I know, but there's not indication Renly knew at all at court. Other than Stannis / Jon, the only people prior to the letter floating about were Cersei, Jaime, LF, and Varys out of hundreds to thousands of people. When asked for evidence: 

“Isn’t that a sweet story, my lady?” Renly asked. “I was camped at Horn Hill when Lord Tarly received his letter, and I must say, it took my breath away.” He smiled at his brother. “I had never suspected you were so clever, Stannis. Were it only true, you would indeed be Robert’s heir.”
“Were it true? Do you name me a liar?”
“Can you prove any word of this fable?”
Stannis ground his teeth.”

****

“My brother’s regard for me was never more than dutiful,” said Stannis. “From me, such accusations would have seemed peevish and self-serving, a means of placing myself first in the line of succession. I believed Robert would be more disposed to listen if the charges came from Lord Arryn, whom he loved.”
“Ah,” said Renly. “So we have the word of a dead man.”
“Do you think he died by happenstance, you purblind fool? Cersei had him poisoned, for fear he would reveal her. Lord Jon had been gathering certain proofs—”
“—which doubtless died with him. How inconvenient.”

52 minutes ago, Orm said:

Renly sure as hell could make the Tyrells back Stannis, they were already too invested at that point to not go with Renly's choice and if he couldn't then he was a Tyrell puppet anyways..... And making Stannis king doesn't squash his chances of being king at all. Stannis is never gonna have a son at that point and that's why he offers Renly to be his heir and eventual successor........

How were they too invested? They could have annulled the wedding based on non consummation and gone over to the Lannisters. And who cares if he was a Tyrell puppet, that's not the argument. A driving factor behind the Tyrell alliance was essentially their swords for making a queen. And you can't argue Stannis is never gonna have a son. He's 35 and already has a child.

52 minutes ago, Orm said:

Agreed...... But if the events did not happen the way they did, would we have anything to argue about? Or worse would we have gotten ASOIAF?

Yes we would have. AGoT is an excellent book and I've have been hooked anyway. You still have to deal with Dany, Jaime, and the WW at that "point" in the series.

[Orm]

27 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

Renly pretty clearly didn't know but got his letter at Horn Hill and clearly didn't believe i

Was Stannis lying though? Did he ever lie? You see the problem is Stannis isn't lying and Renly for his convenience doesn't wanna believe him

 

29 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

How were they too invested? They could have annulled the wedding based on non consummation and gone over to the Lannisters. And who cares if he was a Tyrell puppet, that's not the argument. A driving factor behind the Tyrell alliance was essentially their swords for making a queen. And you can't argue Stannis is never gonna have a son. He's 35 and already has a child

Hmm.... I like the Tyrells but they are way too desperate and I can bank on the relationship that was Renly/Loras that they would have taken the deal , take the Lannisters out of the equation and then secure Renly's position as absolute Heir to Stannis

[Universal Sword Donor]

1 minute ago, Orm said:

Was Stannis lying though? Did he ever lie? You see the problem is Stannis isn't lying and Renly for his convenience doesn't wanna believe him

No and here's the rub: Renly was smart enough to realize that Stannis might well be telling the truth but couldn't back it up, and he wasn't going to hang his lot in with Stannis on a letter sent out after the will and coronation of both kings (Joffrey and Renly). Had the timing been different, maybe the reaction would have. Renly taking advantage of / dismissal of Stannis not having real proof is just the realpolitik of the situation.

1 minute ago, Orm said:

Hmm.... I like the Tyrells but they are way too desperate and I can bank on the relationship that was Renly/Loras that they would have taken the deal , take the Lannisters out of the equation and then secure Renly's position as absolute Heir to Stannis

Why would the Tyrells take the possibility that they might have a daughter as queen when they can trade it for the guarantee that their daughter will be a queen with the reigning king, who also has an heir. LF went to Bitterbridge and Renly rode to Highgarden. They are the kingmakers in this equation, not Renly or the Lannisters, and Mace is nothing but ambitious.

[Orm]

17 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

No and here's the rub: Renly was smart enough to realize that Stannis might well be telling the truth but couldn't back it up, and he wasn't going to hang his lot in with Stannis on a letter sent out after the will and coronation of both kings (Joffrey and Renly). Had the timing been different, maybe the reaction would have. Renly taking advantage of / dismissal of Stannis not having real proof is just the realpolitik of the situation.

And that's why in Stannis's mind Renly had it coming.........

 

18 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

Why would the Tyrells take the possibility that they might have a daughter as queen when they can trade it for the guarantee that their daughter will be a queen with the reigning king, who also has an heir. LF went to Bitterbridge and Renly rode to Highgarden. They are the kingmakers in this equation, not Renly or the Lannisters, and Mace is nothing but ambitious

You seem to forget that if Renly joins Stannis then the Storm-lands go to Stannis who will be enemies of the Lannisters as well as the North and the River-lands who are also gunning for them. If the Tyrells join the Lannisters than it will be a fair fight and the outcome would be difficult to predict. Why would the opportunistic Tyrells who are shit at war risk it? It is far more beneficial that they ally with the Baratheons and secure their position from there with internal politics(which they are very good at)....

[Universal Sword Donor]

1 hour ago, Orm said:

And that's why in Stannis's mind Renly had it coming.........

Stannis can be of whatever mind he wants, but making an accusation like that without being able to prove it makes him no better than Renly in the eyes of the 7 kingdoms. Treason is treason if you're usurping 3 people or 4.

1 hour ago, Orm said:

You seem to forget that if Renly joins Stannis then the Storm-lands go to Stannis who will be enemies of the Lannisters as well as the North and the River-lands who are also gunning for them. If the Tyrells join the Lannisters than it will be a fair fight and the outcome would be difficult to predict. Why would the opportunistic Tyrells who are shit at war risk it? It is far more beneficial that they ally with the Baratheons and secure their position from there with internal politics(which they are very good at)....

The storm lords *might* go to Stannis. The Swanns had sons in both camps and didn't call their banners. Dondarrion remained neutral for various reasons. More might opt to stay at home. We don't know. What we do know is that the Tyrells want a Tyrell queen (marg) followed by a Tyrell king (the grandson) and they are approached by 2 separate parties during the Wo5K as kingmakers.

[Orm]

10 hours ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

Stannis can be of whatever mind he wants, but making an accusation like that without being able to prove it makes him no better than Renly in the eyes of the 7 kingdoms. Treason is treason if you're usurping 3 people or 4.

This really gets me thinking what will happen when Dany neutralises Aegon...... I mean she can't prove dick that Aegon may not be what he says/believes....... And if she kills him will she get the Stannis treatment?

 

10 hours ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

The storm lords *might* go to Stannis. The Swanns had sons in both camps and didn't call their banners. Dondarrion remained neutral for various reasons. More might opt to stay at home. We don't know. What we do know is that the Tyrells want a Tyrell queen (marg) followed by a Tyrell king (the grandson) and they are approached by 2 separate parties during the Wo5K as kingmakers.

We have very different angles of seeing this. But as I said Mace the Ace will do whatever the real players of his family decides....... That backed with Renly/Loras I think Tyrells will respect  what Renly decides and work from there.... Stannis being for then doesn't squash their ambitions at all

[Eltharion21]

On 7/12/2020 at 5:23 PM, Lord Varys said:

That is really nowhere stated in-universe. Nobody was deposed. The Mad King and his heirs were murdered, and the survivors fled into exile. Nobody ever stated anything about anyone being deposed, and Robert is just another Targaryen descendant. His dynasty is the same only with black hair and through the female line and his legal claim to the throne comes from his grandmother and great-grandfather.

If Robert hadn't been a Targaryen descendant and the rebels hadn't installed him as king because of his royal blood, then the Baratheons would have been a new dynasty. But they are not. And if Robert has a legal claim because of his royal blood, so have the Targaryens through the male line.

Stannis is a hypocrite seeing himself as 'the rightful king' when Robert was just a bloody usurper - and he himself, too, for siding with him against Aerys II.

No where is stated that Targaryen dynasty is rightful either, they had conquered Westeros with Fire & Blood . Ruled with threats of dragons and murder, and brought some prosperity diminished by devastation, reaching peak of power during rule of Viserys I and declining steadily relying mostly on support of Lords,  until they were deposed in rebellion supported by 5 of the 7 kingdoms. 

Rebels chose reform, rather than full revolution and change of political order, to appease some of defeated Targaryen supporters which was in theory  better for stability.

I believe tv show was on point in lore videos explaining Stannis decision to join Robert in rebellion:

Quote

 It was the hardest choice I've ever had to make - my brother or my king, blood or honour. Aerys ruled by right of all the laws in Westeros. Everyone knew the price of defiance...but there are deeper, older laws - the younger brother bows before the elder. I followed Robert.

Regarding Rebellion this great scene from Tv series Shogun tells of mitigating circumstances comparable to Westeros. From 1:54:21 to 1:55:58

 

[Minsc]

7 hours ago, Orm said:

And if she kills him will she get the Stannis treatment?

Do you mean by Westeros?  Probably.

7 hours ago, Orm said:

But as I said Mace the Ace will do whatever the real players of his family decides....... That backed with Renly/Loras I think Tyrells will respect  what Renly decides and work from there.... Stannis being for then doesn't squash their ambitions at all

Mace isn't just a puppet, rather he is actually very much in charge.  Mace isn't going to support someone that has a grudge against him and who is married into a family that wants his titles.

[frenin]

4 minutes ago, Minsc said:

Mace isn't going to support someone that has a grudge against him and who is married into a family that wants his titles.

Stannis doesn't really have a grudge against him, not It would make sense for him to have one.

But him being married with a Florent is a big and definitive no-no for the Tyrells.

[Lord Varys]

4 hours ago, Eltharion21 said:

No where is stated that Targaryen dynasty is rightful either, they had conquered Westeros with Fire & Blood . Ruled with threats of dragons and murder, and brought some prosperity diminished by devastation, reaching peak of power during rule of Viserys I and declining steadily relying mostly on support of Lords,  until they were deposed in rebellion supported by 5 of the 7 kingdoms. 

Of course the Targaryens conquered the Seven Kingdoms - but that worked only because the people bent the knee. The kings lost their crowns because they gave them up, every single one of them (aside from the Gardeners and Hoares who were all dead). They all see them as their rightful rulers, even Robert knows he is and fears he will be seen as a usurper should Viserys III ever invade Westeros.

Nobody was formally deposed during Robert's Rebellion - Aerys II was murdered, Rhaegar fell in battle, and his wife and children were murdered, too. Aerys II wasn't formally deposed nor was Viserys III formally attainted (not that this would matter if Viserys III didn't formally give up his claim himself - else we can say that the Starks, Tullys, Florents, etc. also no longer have a right to their seats because some guy thinking he is a king took them from them). All Robert did was stealing the throne. He is about as legitimate as Daemon Blackfyre would have been had he murdered Daeron II and driven his sons into exile.

Stannis is just a lying hypocrite - why shouldn't Joffrey 'Baratheon' be king no matter who his father was if Robert Baratheon could be king instead of Viserys III? Why shouldn't Renly be king never mind that he is the youngest brother? Why shouldn't the successor of a usurper be another usurper?

If Stannis cared about the law in relation to the royal succession he should have not accepted Robert as his king after the Rebellion. He certainly can justify helping his brother resist and perhaps even topple the Mad King, but that doesn't give him the right to usurp the throne if other people have a better claim. Or rather: If the man is corrupt and vile enough to make an exception for Robert he should swallow his fake righteousness and accept that both Joffrey and Renly are more popular than he is and have the same right to be king as Robert had.

[Orm]

28 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Of course the Targaryens conquered the Seven Kingdoms - but that worked only because the people bent the knee

Yea Robert BARATHEON (not Targaryen) conquered the seven kingdoms and that worked because Ned Stark, Jon Arryn, Tywin Lannister, Hoster Tully and Mace Tyrell all bent the knee to him and his house........ He didn't even need dragons to do it......And later crushed Balon and then Balon bent the knee to him......

 

42 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Stannis is just a lying hypocrite -

No.... Just no......   

He is the rightful heir......

36 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

They all see them as their rightful rulers, even Robert knows he is and fears he will be seen as a usurper should Viserys III ever invade Wester

Only Viserys sees himself as the rightful ruler....... Bob had the good sense to know that Joffrey is bloody incompetent to lead armies and defend the realm, and he himself was too fat for his armour'.....

 

46 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

If Stannis cared about the law in relation to the royal succession he should have not accepted Robert as his king after the Rebellion. He certainly can justify helping his brother resist and perhaps even topple the Mad King, but that doesn't give him the right to usurp the throne if other people have a better claim. Or rather: If the man is corrupt and vile enough to make an exception for Robert he should swallow his fake righteousness and accept that both Joffrey and Renly are more popular than he is and have the same right to be king as Robert had.

The Targaryen right to the throne died with Rhaegar and Aerys......... Joffrey has no right to the throne whatsoever, even Edric and Gendry have more right than him.......... "Corrupt and Vile Stannis" is your fan-fiction I am afraid......

[Lord Varys]

8 hours ago, Orm said:

Yea Robert BARATHEON (not Targaryen) conquered the seven kingdoms and that worked because Ned Stark, Jon Arryn, Tywin Lannister, Hoster Tully and Mace Tyrell all bent the knee to him and his house........ He didn't even need dragons to do it......And later crushed Balon and then Balon bent the knee to him......

He took the throne, he conquered nothing. He killed his cousins and then the rebels propped him up as the next king. He is just a black-haired Targaryen.

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The Targaryen right to the throne died with Rhaegar and Aerys......... Joffrey has no right to the throne whatsoever, even Edric and Gendry have more right than him.......... "Corrupt and Vile Stannis" is your fan-fiction I am afraid......

If it had died, then Robert wouldn't have made king on the basis that he was a Targaryen descendant himself, the great-grandson of Aegon V.

Stannis helped Robert to usurp the throne. Thus he cannot fault others for usurping the throne which he is trying to usurp, too. The man has no proof that Cersei's children aren't Robert's, and thus he has actually no right to lay claim to the throne. And he cannot complain when others are honest usurpers - just as Robert was, too.