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Why is Renly seemingly disliked in the community?


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27 minutes ago, Peach King said:

They must have been there if Catelyn saw them.

Yes, as you yourself quoted from the text in the thread you link:

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The golden rose of Highgarden was seen everywhere: sewn on the right breast of armsmen and servants, flapping and fluttering from the green silk banners that adorned lance and pike, painted upon the shields hung outside the pavilions of the sons and brothers and cousins and uncles of House Tyrell.

Catelyn's statement may be overspecifying to an extent (there's no brother of Mace Tyrell flying the banner, I'd suppose, unless his good-brother Jon Fossoway has taken to decorating his arms with the golden rose to mark his marriage to Mace's sister), but it's clear that a bunch of Tyrells are on hand. It's disingenuous to try and limit "significant Tyrells" to Mace and his sons, when with Loras present Garlan would naturally be expected to play a role in helping to marshal additional forces in the Reach, Mace himself cannot be questioned in his commitment to Renly given that he married his daughter and sent the better part of the Reach's forces with him, and Willas is a non-combatant who wouldn't be expected to be on the march.

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2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

I have no particular preference as to how the decision to make Renly king was reached - I just would have liked a compelling story about this from George R. R. Martin himself. One that is published and not conjecture hatched in your or my mind by reinterpreting a couple of sentences in 2-3 books.

I think we all agree here. It's kind of frustrating to have so little to work with, but I think the only way to get more informations on this would indeed be a Tyrell-POV (my preference for a number of reasons would be Loras). So let's hope we get one...

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

We have Littlefinger claiming Margaery isn't particularly interested to be queen. He may or may not be right there. We don't know.

I don't think Olenna is lying about her assessment of Renly. Her bluntness seems to be honest bluntness, although she clearly uses it as shield to hide her darker intentions.

I don't believe in any of this statements; or more specific: I do believe that Olenna had little love for Renly, simply because she doesn't seem to have much love for a lot of people , but I don't believe Margaery did not want to be queen, nor that Olenna is/was really against the idea as such.

2 hours ago, Ran said:

I'll say that it was not his plan because, as Varys tells Ned, Renly and Loras are both writing to try and persuade Mace to send her to court. This doesn't seem like what you'd expect if it was his notion.

Personally, this plan is something Renly and Loras have cooked up and Mace is, at the time of AGoT, perhaps tempted but not committed. This is one of the things that underscores that the Tyrells are much less of a driver of the events of AGoT and ACoK than people whose first exposure to ASoIaF was through the TV show, which made the Tyrells come off as the brains behind everything Renly did.

Well, if I had to choose who cooked up the plan, I would go with Loras and Margaery (with how much Olenna I don't know), convincing Renly because he could get rid of Cersei that way. Then, after Robert's death and some thinking, the plan changed into crowning Renly and making Margaery his queen.

Margaery surly isn't a pawn here, but a player - and I simply can't believe Loras getting or giving in to such an idea without his sister's very explicit consensus.

2 hours ago, Ran said:

I believe LV is convinced that Renly was plotting to become king from the moment Robert was gutted by the boar. The long delay in his coronation, the clear tying of it to the Lannister threat to him and perhaps even to the failure of Stannis to declare, makes it fairly obvious (to me, anyways) that Renly's decision came up after he left King's Landing, and that prior to then it had never been part of his plans to somehow end up a king.

I don't think @Lord Varys is really convinced about this, just that with so little informations it is a possibility we can't discard with 100%, only with about 99,99%. So LV is laying a lot of emphasis into the fact that with the structure of the early books we really can't know for certain, and have way too little insight into the motivations of one of the major factions in the War of the five Kings and - as the Tyrells are still in the game - until now.

And that this is quite frustrating ( :tantrum:)  - an assessment I do share, even while I do agree with you that what little we do know hints a lot more toward Renly's decision being made some-when "on the run", and that he never did plan to crown himself while still in KL.

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3 minutes ago, Morte said:

Well, if I had to choose who cooked up the plan, I would go with Loras and Margaery (with how much Olenna I don't know), convincing Renly because he could get rid of Cersei that way.

Olenna was absolutely opposed to the idea, I'm quite certain.  She was opposed to the marriage to Renly when it was all above board and proper, why would she want to try and pimp out her grand-daughter? I also heavily doubt that Margaery was involved at all. It feels much more in line for Loras and Renly to treat Margaery as an object, a tool for a purpose, than to somehow bring her into their intrigues when it's not as if she would have any influence with Mace when they were trying to persuade him. For that matter, it's not even clear Mace knew why they were trying to get him to send Margaery to KL. 

It's Renly and Loras, 100%.

The TV show has really screwed up perceptions of the dynamics in all this.

 

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2 minutes ago, Ran said:

Olenna was absolutely opposed to the idea, I'm quite certain.  I also heavily doubt that Margaery was involved at all.

It's Renly and Loras, 100%.

Here we have to agree to disagree, unfortunately. Olenna tells us she is opposed to the idea, while she might be opposed to the implementation and execution, as well as the modifications to the plan, giving her great-daughter to one king after the other. This would be two quite different things, but Olenna would of course not tell us.

And Margaery is an even greater enigma in her motivations, but as much as you doubt that she has an agenda on her own, as much do I think that she has. So...

We need a POV.

11 minutes ago, Ran said:

The TV show has really screwed up perceptions of the dynamics.

That I can not say, as I only watched rants and summaries after the second episode of season two. :)

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1 hour ago, Ran said:

Olenna was absolutely opposed to the idea, I'm quite certain.  She was opposed to the marriage to Renly when it was all above board and proper, why would she want to try and pimp out her grand-daughter? I also heavily doubt that Margaery was involved at all. It feels much more in line for Loras and Renly to treat Margaery as an object, a tool for a purpose, than to somehow bring her into their intrigues when it's not as if she would have any influence with Mace when they were trying to persuade him. For that matter, it's not even clear Mace knew why they were trying to get him to send Margaery to KL. 

It's Renly and Loras, 100%.

The TV show has really screwed up perceptions of the dynamics in all this.

 

I think saying that Loras thought of her as an "object" is a bit harsh. Loras loves Margaery - so much so that he would kill Joffrey if he ever struck her. And Margaery also loves Loras.

Marrying girls to men much older than them is heavily precedented. Even Good Queen Alysanne did it (trying to marry off 15 year old Viserra to old, fat Theomore Manderly, and marrying off 16 year old Daella to 36 year old Rodrik Arryn), and people known for their nobility and goodness like Selwyn Tarth (he engaged Brienne to 65 year old Humfrey Wagstaff when she was 16), and even 'feminists' like Jeyne Arryn (she was among the 7 regents who wanted to marry 16 year old Baela to Thaddeus Rowan, a man 4 times older than her and heavily overweight, when that failed they married 14 year old Floris Baratheon to him).

And we know that even being the queen's mistress is very desirable. Just look at the sheer number of girls who were trying to seduce a middle aged Jaeherys when he went on his first progress without Alysanne.

So I think that's it likely Loras was also acting out of affection. 

Besides, Olenna says all that after Renly is dead, and we know she lies to make herself look better (like breaking off the engagement to her Targaryen prince). We can't take things at face value in these books. 

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2 minutes ago, Peach King said:

I think saying that Loras thought of her as an "object" is a bit harsh. Loras loves Margaery - so much that so that he would kill Joffrey if he ever struck her. And Margaery also loves Loras.

Perhaps it's better to say that Loras and Renly saw Margaery's maidenhead as an object, and that her happiness would derive from serving her family and the realm and becoming a queen. But I don't think they thought to ask her if she wanted to bed a fat man old enough to be her father.

2 minutes ago, Peach King said:

So I think that's it likely Loras was also acting out of affection. 

Affection for Renly, yes. Affection for Margaery, yes, but with a typical sexist view of knowing what's good for her.

2 minutes ago, Peach King said:

Besides, Olenna says all that after Renly is dead, and we know she lies to make herself look better (like breaking off the engagement to her Targaryen prince).

I would not be sure to say that she lied about it. I would say that instead that the authors of TWoIaF *ahem* were providing a particular version of the history of her betrothal and what transpired with its ending.

2 minutes ago, Peach King said:

We can't take things at face value in these books. 

No, but in this case, it's pretty clear that Olenna was genuinely opposed to Mace's notions. Why should she bother lying to Sansa, of all people? Why should she care? Most of her rant happens because Margaery is trying to defend Renly, Loras, and her father, and Olenna will have none of it. 

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3 minutes ago, Ran said:

I would not be sure to say that she lied about it. I would say that instead that the authors of TWoIaF *ahem* were providing a particular version of the history of her betrothal and what transpired with its ending.

I really thought the Worldbook gave us the actual story. So did George tell you what actually happened and you changed that into an 'official' view? Or do you just think the true story might be different?

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14 minutes ago, The Wondering Wolf said:

I really thought the Worldbook gave us the actual story. So did George tell you what actually happened and you changed that into an 'official' view? Or do you just think the true story might be different?

At all times the story you get in TWoIaF is an account of a book written by a maester (sometimes with heavy inclusion from a second maester) who were never personal witnesses to pretty much anything they report. They in turn may rely on accounts from witnesses, but sometimes their sources conflict. In the matter of material related to Aegon V, George presented some things to us as being only a partial or one-sided description of events, presumably because the developments that led to them themselves color how they are perceived. The Aegon V material is a bit unique in that it's mapped out in part because George plans to write more novellas.

As always with George, it's the journey, not the destination.

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25 minutes ago, Ran said:

Perhaps it's better to say that Loras and Renly saw Margaery's maidenhead as an object, and that her happiness would derive from serving her family and the realm and becoming a queen. But I don't think they thought to ask her if she wanted to bed a fat man old enough to be her father.

Affection for Renly, yes. Affection for Margaery, yes, but with a typical sexist view of knowing what's good for her.

I agree it's sexist. Recently I read a post about misogyny in Westeros and how that affects how people view women. Tyrion thinks Sansa might still want to marry Joffrey, even when he was present for the brutal beatings Joffrey inflicted on her via her Kingsguard. And Jaime semi-believes in the idea that Sansa poisoned Joffrey because she was jealous of him getting married to Margaery. Stannis even finds it believable that Gilly would either seduce her own father or be on board with having babies with him. Typically, it's just assumed that women are motivated by lust and a desire for power or petty emotions - when that might not even be the case, and they're granted a lot more agency than they really have. 

35 minutes ago, Ran said:

I would not be sure to say that she lied about it. I would say that instead that the authors of TWoIaF *ahem* were providing a particular version of the history of her betrothal and what transpired with its ending.

No, but in this case, it's pretty clear that Olenna was genuinely opposed to Mace's notions. Why should she bother lying to Sansa, of all people? Why should she care? Most of her rant happens because Margaery is trying to defend Renly, Loras, and her father, and Olenna will have none of it. 

You mean the full story wasn't fleshed out yet? But saying that the Targaryens had "queer notions" is a bit on the nose :p

She might have lied to get Sansa to trust her, to get across the message that she doesn't associate with traitors, as she's trying to get Sansa to spill the beans. Or to save face. Maybe Olenna's ego is so huge she can't have even Sansa think that she supported a failed usurpation. 

But its true she might also have been 100% sincere. I do lean toward her not being involved with the plot to marry Margaery to Robert, mostly because it seems very vague and not well thought out.

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Just now, Peach King said:

But its true she might also have been 100% sincere. I do lean toward her not being involved with the plot to marry Margaery to Robert, mostly because it seems very vague and not well thought out.

For sure.

I also think her view of the Renly marriage is 100% honest as well, and the fact is that despite her fierce resistance Mace went ahead anyways. It underscores that however much of a dullard we may want to think of him, he's in charge and Olenna is largely limited to doing her best to mitigate the harm of his decisions (ergo her deciding to team up with Littlefinger to poison Joffrey).

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10 hours ago, Ran said:

I believe LV is convinced that Renly was plotting to become king from the moment Robert was gutted by the boar. The long delay in his coronation, the clear tying of it to the Lannister threat to him and perhaps even to the failure of Stannis to declare, makes it fairly obvious (to me, anyways) that Renly's decision came up after he left King's Landing, and that prior to then it had never been part of his plans to somehow end up a king.

It's kind of hard to come to any other conclusion when the two ways we see him try to influence the court are finding a new wife for the king and making ned the most powerful person in the kingdom while retaining the king.

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5 hours ago, Ran said:

Perhaps it's better to say that Loras and Renly saw Margaery's maidenhead as an object, and that her happiness would derive from serving her family and the realm and becoming a queen. But I don't think they thought to ask her if she wanted to bed a fat man old enough to be her father.

Thank you for this.

I am a subscriber to the idea that tourneys and melees provide foreshadowing. Brienne's victory at the melee at Bitterbridge is largely motivated by her anger at the men who had placed bets on who could take her maidenhead. With "beheading" a sign of a major conflict between Houses or between an individual and the King's Justice, I imagine that taking a maidenhead against a person's wishes could have major repercussions.

Interesting that the final person she defeats in the melee - Ser Loras - had no interest in Brienne's maidenhead, but was willing to sell out his sister's maidenhead in order to advance the interests of House Tyrell. I'm sure he was happier with Renly instead of Robert as his sister's spouse, though. Of course, Renly was not interested in Margaery's maidenhead, either, except that it allowed the alliance with House Tyrell.

After Brienne wins the melee, she become a symbolic third spouse for Renly, when he puts the blue cloak of the Rainbow Guard over her shoulders.

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13 hours ago, Ran said:

Personally, this plan is something Renly and Loras have cooked up and Mace is, at the time of AGoT, perhaps tempted but not committed. This is one of the things that underscores that the Tyrells are much less of a driver of the events of AGoT and ACoK than people whose first exposure to ASoIaF was through the TV show, which made the Tyrells come off as the brains behind everything Renly did.

I very much agree with that, although I'd say it was Renly's idea, not so much Loras'. Loras isn't a plotter as such, he completely disappears from the political scene as a player and is later very easily played by Littlefinger and Cersei. The time to assume he was a driving force in the political field would be when have him do something.

13 hours ago, Ran said:

I believe LV is convinced that Renly was plotting to become king from the moment Robert was gutted by the boar. The long delay in his coronation, the clear tying of it to the Lannister threat to him and perhaps even to the failure of Stannis to declare, makes it fairly obvious (to me, anyways) that Renly's decision came up after he left King's Landing, and that prior to then it had never been part of his plans to somehow end up a king.

This is something I like to consider, but not something I believe - my entire point with Renly is that we have not enough data.

Judging characters on the basis of when they may have access to certain information is a pretty wild guess if we don't know anything about the circumstances of their decision-making process, i.e. nothing about Renly's thoughts, intentions, talks, councils, etc. with various people after he and Loras left court.

Giving Renly the benefit of the doubt there is pretty much like pretending to know that Richard III only slowly developed the notion to depose his nephews and eventually murder them (assuming the latter is what happened). There is a possibility that this kind of thing can be a slippery slope, but until we actually do know I think it makes more sense that kings do not make themselves accidentally - especially not when their coronation coincidees with a prestigious marriage - and thus it is actually of value to wonder when exactly Renly decided he wanted to be king - or realized that he could be king if he played his cards right.

12 hours ago, Peach King said:

They must have been there if Catelyn saw them. Willas is a cripple. Garlan was probably in command of the reserve army Mace held at Highgarden.

Mace was in command of said reserve army as far as we know.

12 hours ago, Peach King said:

And you're making disingenuous claims again. The Fossoways were with Renly before Stannis. The Redwynes weren't because the twins were held hostage in King's Landing. I don't see reason to believe the Hightowers weren't with Renly too.

Of course the Fossoways were with Renly before they joined Stannis - but Jon Fossoway remains Mace's brother-in-law and he still sided with Stannis and did not accompany Tarly, Loras, and many others back to Bitterbridge. That is actually significant ... or at least interesting.

12 hours ago, Peach King said:

I think believing that Mace didn't particularly want Margaery as queen because he didn't immediately ally with the Lannisters is naive. Did Randyll Tarly just kill the men trying to join Stannis and arrest his envoys for funsies? This ensured two things: 1) They closed all possible avenues for an alliance with Stannis 2) They made it CERTAIN that they would be enemies, if they weren't before, and once Stannis took the throne he would be at rights to exact retribution upon them.

We don't know any details about those executions there, but they seem to have happened after Stannis' envoys had reached Bitterbridge. And we actually do not know why Tarly did that (he is Lord Alester's brother-in-law so that's another of those weird things were George forgot kinship or he means to say that people only give a rat's ass about 'marriage alliances' if they want to.

12 hours ago, Peach King said:

These aren't the actions of someone who was trying to stay neutral and had to have their arm twisted into an alliance. The Tyrells were always going to join up with the Lannisters, since they were the only anti-Stannis faction who also had a claim to the throne. So why wait? I can think of two reasons:

1) Image: The Tyrells immediately going to lick the boots of the Lannisters after Renly was assassinated would make them look pathetic and power hungry. Instead, by waiting for the Lannisters to come to them, they were the ones in control of the situation. They looked like saviours instead of opportunists.

2) Diplomacy: Its the weaker party's due to make concessions to the stronger one. The Tyrells have a greater right to make demands in a situation where it was the Lannisters begging for their help.

Those strike me as rather weird speculations based on the idea that the Tyrells had a lot of information the leaders of the house only received when Loras and Littlefinger reached Highgarden.

The idea that Tyrells had to side with anyone is pretty much without basis. They could have waited until the war was settled to side with the winner.

12 hours ago, Peach King said:

As for a Regency government - a lot of it comes down to, would Mace agree to that? What are the material gains? I mean advantages which wouldn't immediately be overturned once Joffrey became king. They could marry Joffrey to Margaery still, but that seems unwise considering that they just killed his whole family and so he wouldn't like them very much. Would they force him into it anyway and make him consummate, in hopes of offing him and placing the child on the throne? Somehow I don't think the Tyrells are that monstrous. And would people even allow this farcical marriage?

Nobody said anything about killing the Lannisters. Renly/Mace removing them from power doesn't mean Cersei, Jaime, Tywin, Tyrion, etc. have to be killed. They could just be removed from power.

The idea that decisions made during a regency government are up for debate when the king comes of age are not all that well-founded, if we look at Aegon III - all he could do was cancel the progress. But his court and KG were staffed by men chosen by his regents and Hands. Also, it would be rather dangerous to try to take away lordships and offices and titles people received in the king's name on a royal whim. Those people might then fight back.

12 hours ago, Peach King said:

Also, re: Lysa being able to stay neutral so Renly would be able to too, I know we already discussed this, but I had a reread and that isn't quite what happens. Tywin and co. discuss what to do with Lysa in ASOS. Some were for letting her be, some argued in favour of fighting her into submission. It was because Littlefinger said that he would be able to bring her over to their side peacefully that they decide on that route.

They do the same thing with Dorne and the Stormlords after Renly's death. They are all welcomed back into the King's Peace. This idea that people are justified in their ludicrous assumptions 'that they have to be king to save themselves' is just nonsense. There are always ways to compromise. And Cersei and Tywin both are much more pragmatic than a guy like Stannis.

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Mace was in command of said reserve army as far as we know.

Was he? It was Garlan who led the vanguard of the Tyrell army. It could be that Mace wanted Garlan's help. If Mace was wishy washy about supporting Renly it's unlikely he would have sent Margaery along with him. 

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Those strike me as rather weird speculations based on the idea that the Tyrells had a lot of information the leaders of the house only received when Loras and Littlefinger reached Highgarden.

The idea that Tyrells had to side with anyone is pretty much without basis. They could have waited until the war was settled to side with the winner.

Don't see why it's weird speculation? It should be obvious to the Tyrells that the Lannisters would look to them as allies given their situation.

Of course they had to side with someone else. They couldn't side with Stannis after spitting in his face.

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Nobody said anything about killing the Lannisters. Renly/Mace removing them from power doesn't mean Cersei, Jaime, Tywin, Tyrion, etc. have to be killed. They could just be removed from power.

So they would be imprisoned or banished? Doesn't seem like that's any better.

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

The idea that decisions made during a regency government are up for debate when the king comes of age are not all that well-founded, if we look at Aegon III - all he could do was cancel the progress. But his court and KG were staffed by men chosen by his regents and Hands. Also, it would be rather dangerous to try to take away lordships and offices and titles people received in the king's name on a royal whim. Those people might then fight back.

I mean that's exactly what Aegon III did - he dismissed all his regents and Hand when he was made king. And it's not like there wasn't any Lannisters left around. Joffrey could appoint them instead, or he could appoint people who are more sympathetic to the boy king and don't approve of the Tyrells' power hungry ways. Then the Tyrells would be left out in the cold.

 

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

They do the same thing with Dorne and the Stormlords after Renly's death. They are all welcomed back into the King's Peace. This idea that people are justified in their ludicrous assumptions 'that they have to be king to save themselves' is just nonsense. There are always ways to compromise. And Cersei and Tywin both are much more pragmatic than a guy like Stannis.

As was said elsewhere, the Lannisters had no interest in allying with the brothers Baratheon. There's no talk of sending letters, envoys, etc. Due to Stannis and Renly's claims on the throne, they would be better off exterminated, must be the Lannisters' thought process. 

If Lysa wasn't in love with Littlefinger, which allowed LF to get her into the fold, what would the Lannisters have done? They might have possibly set upon the Vale with swords. 

And Cersei was very opposed to the Myrcella marriage, and only agreed to it because it was the best shot of her being safe. 

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11 hours ago, Ran said:

Yes, as you yourself quoted from the text in the thread you link:

Catelyn's statement may be overspecifying to an extent (there's no brother of Mace Tyrell flying the banner, I'd suppose, unless his good-brother Jon Fossoway has taken to decorating his arms with the golden rose to mark his marriage to Mace's sister), but it's clear that a bunch of Tyrells are on hand. It's disingenuous to try and limit "significant Tyrells" to Mace and his sons, when with Loras present Garlan would naturally be expected to play a role in helping to marshal additional forces in the Reach, Mace himself cannot be questioned in his commitment to Renly given that he married his daughter and sent the better part of the Reach's forces with him, and Willas is a non-combatant who wouldn't be expected to be on the march.

I'd say that is kind of disingenious here since you are aware that banners do not equal actual people. The readers and Catelyn do not meet any Tyrells aside from Loras and Margaery in Renly's camp. Not at Bitterbridge and not at Storm's End. That Cat thinks there are pavillions she thinks belong to members of House Tyrell might be an error on her part - or they were indeed 'insignificant Tyrells', i.e. Mace's first and second cousins. If Olymer and Theodore Tyrell were there we would not count them as significant people, would we?

With Mace already commanding a reserve of 10,000 men at Highgarden there is no reason for us to assume that further troops were marshaled, nor that Garlan would have to play a role in this.

And of course we can question Mace's commitment to Renly's cause - he isn't there with Renly, nor is his heir and second son. Margaery Tyrell also is a non-combatant, as are the smallfolk cheering Renly during his progress-march - yet they accompanying him either way. Are you trying to tell us that Margaery Tyrell is more of a man than Willas Tyrell?

Mace is in an ideal position to cut ties with Renly as soon as he is dead precisely because he and his actually important sons are not with him when he dies.

10 hours ago, Morte said:

I don't believe in any of this statements; or more specific: I do believe that Olenna had little love for Renly, simply because she doesn't seem to have much love for a lot of people , but I don't believe Margaery did not want to be queen, nor that Olenna is/was really against the idea as such.

Well, we don't have her POV or a POV of a person who really knows her and can judge her inner thoughts and motivations. But we do have Littlefinger's statement there. He knows her better than you or I, so it makes sense to not completely dismiss the notion that she isn't particularly eager to be queen.

Overall, she plays along and does what's expected of her. She is pretty good at that, and quite clever and perceptive and a hell of a good actress, but she is still barely sixteen.

There is a hint in the Epilogue that she and Cersei hate each other with a passion now, so perhaps she might come to fore in a meaningful capacity in TWoW, but so far her elders led her along.

10 hours ago, Morte said:

Well, if I had to choose who cooked up the plan, I would go with Loras and Margaery (with how much Olenna I don't know), convincing Renly because he could get rid of Cersei that way. Then, after Robert's death and some thinking, the plan changed into crowning Renly and making Margaery his queen.

Here I agree completely with @Ran that this doesn't seem to be the case, and if you look the Renly-Loras dynamics - Renly being the lord, Renly being the elder, Renly being the knightly master, Renly being the guy talking to Loras the entire time in ACoK, and Loras being the one who was apparently deeply in love with Renly - then we can be pretty sure that Renly was running their relationship the same way he was running his campaign.

If this had been a Tyrell plan then nobody would have to include Renly at all - Loras could have just taken Margaery to court when he came, and his family could have accompanied them.

10 hours ago, Morte said:

Margaery surly isn't a pawn here, but a player - and I simply can't believe Loras getting or giving in to such an idea without his sister's very explicit consensus.

He loved Renly ... and Renly decided that Margaery should try to seduce Robert.

10 hours ago, Ran said:

For that matter, it's not even clear Mace knew why they were trying to get him to send Margaery to KL.

That is actually quite significant. According to Varys, Loras was urging his father to send Margaery to court - he didn't write they should all come. It is not unlikely Renly sort of planned to make Margaery Robert's Anne Boleyn without actually including her father into his plans.

As for Daeron-Olenna: I never understood why Daeron would have necessarily have to dissolve this betrothal. He was with his true love regardless whether he married Olenna or not. She would never come between him and Jeremy. But it makes sense that a woman like Olenna was too proud to end in such a travesty of a marriagem risking the die a childless maiden even if was wed and bedded (of sorts).

In that sense I always expected that it would turn out that both were sort of right - Daeron formally dissolving the match but due to certain (nasty) steps and machinations Olenna did behind the scenes. Daeron may have been able to save face publicly, but key people might now how Olenna fucked with him and Jeremy to get what she wanted.

[See, that's how I speculate - with good reason to expect some sort of story there to be in the future if we ever get more Dunk & Egg and/or another FaB.]

7 hours ago, Ran said:

For sure.

I also think her view of the Renly marriage is 100% honest as well, and the fact is that despite her fierce resistance Mace went ahead anyways. It underscores that however much of a dullard we may want to think of him, he's in charge and Olenna is largely limited to doing her best to mitigate the harm of his decisions (ergo her deciding to team up with Littlefinger to poison Joffrey).

Here it would be good if we knew when and where the decision to crown Renly was made. It might be that Olenna didn't even have the chance to talk to Mace about this whole idea because the boys made that decision all by themselves - or even before Renly and Loras reached Highgarden.

3 hours ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

It's kind of hard to come to any other conclusion when the two ways we see him try to influence the court are finding a new wife for the king and making ned the most powerful person in the kingdom while retaining the king.

The idea here is that you put somebody in charge just to set him up for the slaughter. Littlefinger also ensured Tyrion would succeed him as Master of Coin. Does this mean he wanted Tyrion to shine in that capacity?

Renly could have intended to use Ned to get closer to the throne, to use him to get rid of the Lannisters to eventually get rid of him and eventually, if he already desired/liked to wear a crown at the time, Cersei's children.

I never put forth the idea that Renly wanted to replace Robert as king while the man was still alive, by the way. This is indeed very unlikely due to the Margaery plan. But I do like we should consider that Renly was with Robert throughout the hunt and while he was dying on the way back. He had a pretty long time to think about Robert's death and what that meant for him, his plans, and the future of the Realm.

4 minutes ago, Peach King said:

Was he? It was Garlan who led the vanguard of the Tyrell army. It could be that Mace wanted Garlan's help. If Mace was wishy washy about supporting Renly it's unlikely he would have sent Margaery along with him. 

Mace commanded the Tyrell army. Garlan posed as Renly's Ghost and led troops in that capacity. My point was that we don't know why the elder brothers Tyrell remained behind - nor why many of the uncles were nowhere to be seen. Garth the Gross and Moryn Tyrell (the lord seneschal of Highgarden and the Lord Commander of the City Watch of Oldtown) apparently weren't with the army - else Garth would have come to KL in ACoK.

4 minutes ago, Peach King said:

Don't see why it's weird speculation? It should be obvious to the Tyrells that the Lannisters would look to them as allies given their situation.

Why should they want to side with them, though? Joff is still betrothed to a Stark girl, and Tywin's dog tried to murder Loras at a recent tourney.

As I said - there is no guarantee that Loras and his people conclude that the Lannisters had nothing to do with Renly's murder. He could have concluded that they paid off Brienne or the two Rainbow Guards he killed, one of them Robar Royce, a man who had previously attended court.

4 minutes ago, Peach King said:

Of course they had to side with someone else. They couldn't side with Stannis after spitting in his face.

They could have ignored both Stannis and Joffrey.

4 minutes ago, Peach King said:

So they would be imprisoned or banished? Doesn't seem like that's any better.

No, just sent back home. Was Unwin Peake banished or imprisoned after his time as regent and Hand was over? Nope, he returned to Starpike.

4 minutes ago, Peach King said:

I mean that's exactly what Aegon III did - he dismissed all his regents and Hand when he was made king. And it's not like there wasn't any Lannisters left around. Joffrey could appoint them instead, or he could appoint people who are more sympathetic to the boy king and don't approve of the Tyrells' power hungry ways. Then the Tyrells would be left out in the cold.

Aegon III dismissed his regents because he no longer had any need of regents since he was ruling in his own right. And he dismissed his Hand because he hadn't chosen this man. But chances are not that good that Aegon III is also going to replace any other men at his court, especially not the officials and KG the regents and Hand had just appointed earlier in the same year.

4 minutes ago, Peach King said:

As was said elsewhere, the Lannisters had no interest in allying with the brothers Baratheon. There's no talk of sending letters, envoys, etc. Due to Stannis and Renly's claims on the throne, they would be better off exterminated, must be the Lannisters' thought process. 

Cersei may have been thinking along those lines - but we don't even know whether her plans were about murder or merely disgrace/exile - but we have no idea whether Tywin would have insisted destroying Renly and Stannis if either had helped them fight Robb and the Tullys. Vice versa, we could also see the Lannisters and Starks working peacefully together if Robb had decided to work with Tywin to destroy Stannis and/or Renly. The enemy of your enemy can be your friend.

4 minutes ago, Peach King said:

If Lysa wasn't in love with Littlefinger, which allowed LF to get her into the fold, what would the Lannisters have done? They might have possibly set upon the Vale with swords.

Littlefinger pretends to just work as an envoy of the Iron Throne there. If he hadn't volunteered, Tywin would have sent another guy. He gives no indication whatsoever to actually fight a war with the Vale - and neither does Cersei. She also doesn't insist on a war with Dorne, by the way, never mind that they didn't do homage to Joffrey, either.

And if you think about what Lysa and her people pulled with Tyrion then Tywin is very reasonably and generous.

4 minutes ago, Peach King said:

And Cersei was very opposed to the Myrcella marriage, and only agreed to it because it was the best shot of her being safe. 

Nobody ever questioned that.

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1 minute ago, Lord Varys said:

The idea here is that you put somebody in charge just to set him up for the slaughter. Littlefinger also ensured Tyrion would succeed him as Master of Coin. Does this mean he wanted Tyrion to shine in that capacity?

Renly could have intended to use Ned to get closer to the throne, to use him to get rid of the Lannisters to eventually get rid of him and eventually, if he already desired/liked to wear a crown at the time, Cersei's children.

I never put forth the idea that Renly wanted to replace Robert as king while the man was still alive, by the way. This is indeed very unlikely due to the Margaery plan. But I do like we should consider that Renly was with Robert throughout the hunt and while he was dying on the way back. He had a pretty long time to think about Robert's death and what that meant for him, his plans, and the future of the Realm.

Right but we know that Renly is fearing for his life. He says as much directly to Ned and Catelyn. Can't repeat that enough. If Ned goes down, then Renly's as good as dead (unless he flees). 

Renly *could* have intended to install Patchface as king but we don't know. We see nothing to support that notion. This entire response is speculation unsupported by anything in the text.

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18 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

Right but we know that Renly is fearing for his life. He says as much directly to Ned and Catelyn. Can't repeat that enough. If Ned goes down, then Renly's as good as dead (unless he flees). 

But the context there is if they insist to challenge Cersei Lannister's rise to the regency. Renly makes it clear that 'the Lannisters' are not going to be merciful if they challenge them in a struggle for power. He doesn't say Cersei would kill him or Ned no matter what.

And if you know the books, you also know that Cersei Lannister actually gave Ned two opportunities to join her - after she had told him about the twincest. First when she tried to seduce him, and second in the throne room when he was about to declare that Joffrey wasn't Robert's son.

Even after that she wasn't hellbent on killing Ned - instead, she intended to send him to the Wall.

The idea that we can safely say Renly had good reason to assume that Cersei would kill him no matter what when she didn't even insist on Ned's death after he had gotten confirmation about the twincest from Cersei herself just isn't well-founded.

After all, Renly didn't even know about the twincest.

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36 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Mace commanded the Tyrell army. Garlan posed as Renly's Ghost and led troops in that capacity. My point was that we don't know why the elder brothers Tyrell remained behind - nor why many of the uncles were nowhere to be seen. Garth the Gross and Moryn Tyrell (the lord seneschal of Highgarden and the Lord Commander of the City Watch of Oldtown) apparently weren't with the army - else Garth would have come to KL in ACoK.

Garlan was the vanguard. Loras was second in command. As for Garth, he was seneschal or steward, he had duties. 

36 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Why should they want to side with them, though? Joff is still betrothed to a Stark girl, and Tywin's dog tried to murder Loras at a recent tourney.

Cause they can't side with Stannis. And because Margaery would get to be queen. 

Joffrey is betrothed to the daughter of a traitor- the betrothal is pretty much useless.

36 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

As I said - there is no guarantee that Loras and his people conclude that the Lannisters had nothing to do with Renly's murder. He could have concluded that they paid off Brienne or the two Rainbow Guards he killed, one of them Robar Royce, a man who had previously attended court.

Doesn't seem likely that Randyll would kill anyone turning to Stannis just because Loras has a suspicion he was behind Renly's murder. Loras never voices this suspicion, he thinks it was Brienne all along.

36 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

They could have ignored both Stannis and Joffrey.

 If Stannis ascends the throne he would definitely have punished them, it seems unlikely the Tyrells would have risked that.

36 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

No, just sent back home. Was Unwin Peake banished or imprisoned after his time as regent and Hand was over? Nope, he returned to Starpike.

That seems dumb. That just gives Tywin an opportunity to plot and scheme, and there would be ever present swords at their back. That's why Unwin Peake did, controlling the situation in King's Landing from far away. Given Tywin's reputation, that would be a very risky move for the Tyrells.

And Joffrey would not like the people who forcefully separated him from his family for his own "best interests".

36 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Aegon III dismissed his regents because he no longer had any need of regents since he was ruling in his own right. And he dismissed his Hand because he hadn't chosen this man. But chances are not that good that Aegon III is also going to replace any other men at his court, especially not the officials and KG the regents and Hand had just appointed earlier in the same year.

And if the Tyrells just took over the government, none of them would be chosen by Joffrey, which means he could dismiss them.

Nor is Aegon III the same kind of person as Joffrey. Joffrey dismissed Barristan, a famous and legendary warrior, from the Kingsguard, which no one had ever done before. Because he liked Sandor better.

36 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Cersei may have been thinking along those lines - but we don't even know whether her plans were about murder or merely disgrace/exile - but we have no idea whether Tywin would have insisted destroying Renly and Stannis if either had helped them fight Robb and the Tullys. Vice versa, we could also see the Lannisters and Starks working peacefully together if Robb had decided to work with Tywin to destroy Stannis and/or Renly. The enemy of your enemy can be your friend.

Cersei is Regent and unwilling to give up the position. When Tywin hears of Stannis gathering swords, he immediately says he has to deal with the brothers. But there was no talk of an alliance. Before Renly crowned himself, no one says to ally with him either. 

36 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Littlefinger pretends to just work as an envoy of the Iron Throne there. If he hadn't volunteered, Tywin would have sent another guy. He gives no indication whatsoever to actually fight a war with the Vale - and neither does Cersei. She also doesn't insist on a war with Dorne, by the way, never mind that they didn't do homage to Joffrey, either.

And if you think about what Lysa and her people pulled with Tyrion then Tywin is very reasonably and generous.

No, Tywin leaves the question open. He asks his advisors, and most are for peace, because Lysa was a woman. As for Cersei, I'm aware of that, but the Baratheon brothers are not Dorne. Cersei wanted to get rid of them, and so did Joffrey. All the past failed attempts to conquer Dorne might also have factored into her thought process.

Instead of being generous, Tywin probably just doesn't care about Tyrion.

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15 hours ago, Peach King said:

Garlan was the vanguard. Loras was second in command. As for Garth, he was seneschal or steward, he had duties. 

But Mace was the general of his own troops, no? Of course he is using his sons in the command structure as well ... yet he decided to stay at home back in ACoK keeping Willas and Garlan at his side. And to be sure - cripples also can command troops from the rear. Tywin even had the dwarf command troops, and Tyrion later decided to command troops personal at the Blackwater. Willas Tyrell is kept behind deliberately by his father and/or refuses to participate in the military stuff of his own free will (we don't know yet).

15 hours ago, Peach King said:

Cause they can't side with Stannis. And because Margaery would get to be queen.

They certainly could join with Stannis if they wanted to. There are reasons why they did not, of course, but Stannis does have a daughter and Mace has an unmarried son. I don't see a reason why Garlan couldn't succeed Mace as Lord of Highgarden while Willas becomes prince/king consort at Shireen's side. If some diplomatic genius had visited Highgarden on Stannis' behalf, being able to blame another party for Renly's murder, one certainly could see such an outcome.

The idea that things had to turn out the way they did just isn't the case.

15 hours ago, Peach King said:

Joffrey is betrothed to the daughter of a traitor- the betrothal is pretty much useless.

The betrothal would have stood if the Tyrell alliance hadn't been made by Littlefinger - especially after the Red Wedding when Sansa was the last heir of House Stark. Keep in mind that Tywin should have been able to take Stannis in the rear even without the Tyrell alliance. He was marching down south after he failed to cross the Trident on his own - and he had pretty much the same number of troops as Stannis. It would have been a bloodier battle, but chances are that Stannis wouldn't have won this fight, being trapped between the Lannisters and the defenders of the city.

15 hours ago, Peach King said:

Doesn't seem likely that Randyll would kill anyone turning to Stannis just because Loras has a suspicion he was behind Renly's murder. Loras never voices this suspicion, he thinks it was Brienne all along.

Tarly must have had a reason there. He is turning against the people of his brother-in-law. They all think it was Brienne, but who paid her off? Who made her do it? Stannis and/or Catelyn would be the main suspects. Even if Loras and the others assumed Stannis had nothing to do with the murder as such it was his attack on Storm's End that led to Renly's murder. He would share a huge chunk of the blame for that even if the people weren't believing he arranged it.

15 hours ago, Peach King said:

If Stannis ascends the throne he would definitely have punished them, it seems unlikely the Tyrells would have risked that.

Stannis also doesn't punish the Florents and others for originally following Renly, does he? And again - the Tyrells are not eager to get into bed with the Lannisters. They have to approach them, making good offers, and they needed a really great diplomat to make this work. The idea that they would have sided with them without Littlefinger's skills as a diplomat is not exactly founded - especially not while there was still a big chance that Stannis might win. In the end, they helped Joffrey to win - which they only did because they got this great offer. If that had been lacking, they wouldn't have done anything.

15 hours ago, Peach King said:

That seems dumb. That just gives Tywin an opportunity to plot and scheme, and there would be ever present swords at their back. That's why Unwin Peake did, controlling the situation in King's Landing from far away. Given Tywin's reputation, that would be a very risky move for the Tyrells.

Unwin Peake could plot because only he resigned and went back home - we are talking about a scenario where Renly and Mace marshal an army, march to KL, dismiss the current regency government, send the Lannisters and their cronies back home, and install their own people in council and court.

This kind of thing did happen during the regency of many minor monarchs, but in the history of the real world as well as in Westeros (both during the minority of Aegon III as well as Jaehaerys I).

15 hours ago, Peach King said:

And Joffrey would not like the people who forcefully separated him from his family for his own "best interests".

That might be, but there would have still been 3-4 years until the boy would rule in his own right, more than enough time to convince him to see reason. Not to mention that the new rulers could take steps to take members of the royal family hostage - say, by marrying Cersei to Willas and Myrcella to Renly (or vice versa), making Tommen a squire of the Tyrells, marrying Margaery to Joffrey, etc. Thus they could have exerted power over Joffrey even after the regency time was over. Granted, given Joff's personality he may not have cared about any of that, but we cannot expect that they had a clear picture of his characters. Remember how Aegon III was brutalized by Unwin Peake and his master-at-arms - that also looks like stupidity considering the king would one day an adult and technically able to take his revenge, yet those people apparently didn't care about that prospect at all.

15 hours ago, Peach King said:

And if the Tyrells just took over the government, none of them would be chosen by Joffrey, which means he could dismiss them.

Oh, well, there you also can look to the Peake example - if Peake had remained in charge of the government until Aegon III's majority, marrying his daughter to him, etc. then nothing would have changed then. Lord Unwin was running the entire government, controlling the court and the Kingsguard and the king's own person. You can make a king effectively a prisoner at his own court. It is a risky business, of course, but it can be done. And with Renly/Mace doing that they would always have the alternative of making Renly king if Joffrey really started to become a loose cannon.

I mean, go back to AGoT where Littlefinger lays out his idea what Ned should do - support Joff against Stannis, control him and his family by marrying Sansa to Joff and Myrcella to Robb, and then, if Joff should become untractable as his majority grows nearer and Stannis has been dealt with, reveal the twincest, depose him, and put Renly on the throne.

This kind of thing Renly could have done himself - either using the twincest once he had figured that out, or simply by arranging accidents for Joffrey. If Renly had ended up marrying Myrcella he could have strengthened his own claim enough to push aside Tommen easily enough by 'encouraging him' to become a septon or maester.

15 hours ago, Peach King said:

Nor is Aegon III the same kind of person as Joffrey. Joffrey dismissed Barristan, a famous and legendary warrior, from the Kingsguard, which no one had ever done before. Because he liked Sandor better.

Actually, because Joff wanted to blame somebody for Robert's death and Varys suggested Barristan Selmy.

15 hours ago, Peach King said:

Cersei is Regent and unwilling to give up the position. When Tywin hears of Stannis gathering swords, he immediately says he has to deal with the brothers. But there was no talk of an alliance. Before Renly crowned himself, no one says to ally with him either.

Doesn't Tywin already have news about Renly's coronation when he mentions that? Even if I'm misremembering there then Tywin would have had news about Loras/Renly leaving, taking that as a hint that Renly would make trouble further down the road.

But the idea that Tywin would move against either Stannis or Renly if either had been shown up to support him and help him destroy the Starks/Tullys is pretty much ludicrous.

15 hours ago, Peach King said:

No, Tywin leaves the question open. He asks his advisors, and most are for peace, because Lysa was a woman. As for Cersei, I'm aware of that, but the Baratheon brothers are not Dorne. Cersei wanted to get rid of them, and so did Joffrey. All the past failed attempts to conquer Dorne might also have factored into her thought process.

Overall, Dorne is certainly a bigger problem than the Baratheons. The latter are part of their in-laws/family but the Martells want vengeance for the murders of Elia and the children. They want to destroy House Lannister. With the Baratheons they could have reached some understanding. It is not a given that they have to go to war.

15 hours ago, Peach King said:

Instead of being generous, Tywin probably just doesn't care about Tyrion.

But Tywin went to war with the Tullys/Riverlords because of Tyrion's abduction. Lysa nearly had his son killed. This is even a bigger slight that Tyrion's abduction.

The reason why they don't seem to push things with the Vale is that they stayed out of the war. That could be forgiven, not to mention the fact that continuing a war just out of spite isn't something that is very reasonable.

Which takes things back to Renly and Stannis - Tywin expected he would have to deal with them because they would not accept Joff's rise to the throne. If they had accepted it, he wouldn't have gone to war.

This sort of shows how fucked up relationships in the royal family must have been, but this is again one of the points where I'd have liked to see more buildup. We know more about the dynamics between the Blacks and the Greens than why exactly Renly and Cersei didn't get along, or what exactly Stannis' issues where with Cersei/Jaime prior to his suspicions about the twincest.

I mean, think about it for a moment - Robert's family is so fucked up that not just two but three factions develop after his death. Both his brothers turn against each other and their sister-in-law/nephew, and neither of them is willing or capable to even consider a truce or join one of the other factions to at least put down the third.

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