Why is Renly seemingly disliked in the community?

[Stannis Baratheon*]

2 minutes ago, Daemon of the Blacks said:

The people love Renly but that doesn't really signal his worth as a king. Daemon Blackfyre was also more beloved than his half brother but for all the wrong reasons. The people may love Renly but there are suggestion that Renly doesn't love the people in any matter other than a superficial PR stunt. 

Renly is similar to littlefinger, in that he is charming and charismatic, and people trust him, but he could be lying and abusing that trust for his own political gain. Stannis on the other hand, you know for a fact is honest and will serve the realm.

[frenin]

39 minutes ago, Stannis Baratheon* said:

Stannis on the other hand, you know for a fact is honest and will serve the realm.

How do you know that??

Stannis so far has let both of his brothers to die while he himself run away to Dragonstone, killed his baby brother for his army, burned his Hand, promote zealotry in his ranks and religious division and abused of nepotism.

 

How does speak of an honest man that will serve the Realm. Stannis first and foremost pretends that the Realm serves him. He has only changed now because he has literally no other option.

Only for the fact that Stannis is stupid enough to let Melisandre loose because she's hot, tells you that he's not going to be a good King.

And a King that people don't accept or don't follow isn't a king of much.

[Bernie Mac]

4 hours ago, Stannis Baratheon* said:

If Stannis Did Not Burn His Hand, People Would Have Called Him Unjust and Abandoned Him,

That is not true.

Murdering an in-law was not a good thing to do, especially given Axell controlled the majority of Stannis' men at the time. He was lucky it did not backfire like it did so for Robb.

The 2,000 or so who are still with Stannis after the Blackwater would not have left him, they are pretty much out of options and have put all their eggs into the Stannis basket. It is pure sunken cost fallacy at work at this point.

4 hours ago, Stannis Baratheon* said:

 

Just Like What Happened to Robb When He Didn't Kill Catelyn.

What?

No one in the world they inhabit thinks that Robb should have murdered his own mother.

Only a tiny minority in the fandom do.

4 hours ago, Stannis Baratheon* said:

 

Renly Was More Charismatic, But He Might Not Be Honest,

Sure. All none POV characters might not be honest. Same goes for Stannis, same goes for Robb. I'm not sure your point?

4 hours ago, Stannis Baratheon* said:

 

He Could Be Doing What Littlefinger Is Doing, By Tricking People Into Trusting Him, And Using That Trust For His Own Political Gain,

To what ends? They are already making him King. How do you think he is tricking them?

 

4 hours ago, Stannis Baratheon* said:

 

At Least With Stannis, You Know For A Fact He's Honest.

No, we don't. Both Stannis and Renly are not POV characters, we don't know for a fact that either of them are honest.

What we do know is that

 

• Stannis is either lying to himself or Davos about his and Melisandre's involvement in the murder of Renly
• That he did not speak up and warn his King, his brother, of the threat of the Lannisters

4 hours ago, Daemon of the Blacks said:

The people love Renly but that doesn't really signal his worth as a king.

No one claimed it did. What is pointed out is that it is a bonus. A King who knows how to please the people and can keep both smallfolk and noble happy is better than a King who does not care about his subject's happiness.

4 hours ago, Daemon of the Blacks said:

 

Daemon Blackfyre was also more beloved than his half brother but for all the wrong reasons.

What are the right and wrong reasons to be loved?

4 hours ago, Daemon of the Blacks said:

 

The people may love Renly but there are suggestion that Renly doesn't love the people in any matter other than a superficial PR stunt. 

Yes. It is called politics. It is a skill, not a weakness.

[Tikhunt]

Renly is seemingly disliked in this community because he didn't live long enough to be liked, his purpose was as a narrative foil for Stannis and so his very short lived appearance was in an antagonistic role. People can argue as much as they want over who was the bad/worst guy in the conflict between the Baratheon brothers but that doesn't matter for how likeable Renly is, people like some pretty crappy people in the books because they are interesting to read or have a decent amount of attention regardless of their actions, Renly has neither. 

[Bernie Mac]

5 hours ago, Tikhunt said:

Renly is seemingly disliked in this community because he didn't live long enough to be liked, his purpose was as a narrative foil for Stannis

Not just that, him rebelling is vital to the series. If Renly does not rebel then the Reach has no reason to rebel, as does the Stormlands (though this depends on which side Renly takes). The war of the four Kings is pretty short with the Reach/Westerlands/Crownlands against the North/Riverlands and the Narrow Sea Islands.

Stannis' war effort is dependent on Renly rebelling. He can't become King otherwise.

 

[Stannis Baratheon*]

22 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

That is not true.

Murdering an in-law was not a good thing to do, especially given Axell controlled the majority of Stannis' men at the time. He was lucky it did not backfire like it did so for Robb.

The 2,000 or so who are still with Stannis after the Blackwater would not have left him, they are pretty much out of options and have put all their eggs into the Stannis basket. It is pure sunken cost fallacy at work at this point.

What?

No one in the world they inhabit thinks that Robb should have murdered his own mother.

Only a tiny minority in the fandom do.

Sure. All none POV characters might not be honest. Same goes for Stannis, same goes for Robb. I'm not sure your point?

To what ends? They are already making him King. How do you think he is tricking them?

 

No, we don't. Both Stannis and Renly are not POV characters, we don't know for a fact that either of them are honest.

What we do know is that

 

• Stannis is either lying to himself or Davos about his and Melisandre's involvement in the murder of Renly
• That he did not speak up and warn his King, his brother, of the threat of the Lannisters

No one claimed it did. What is pointed out is that it is a bonus. A King who knows how to please the people and can keep both smallfolk and noble happy is better than a King who does not care about his subject's happiness.

What are the right and wrong reasons to be loved?

Yes. It is called politics. It is a skill, not a weakness.

Tywin Lannister was also not charismatic, or loved by the people, he was respected, or at the very least feared, and was not completely honest either, but the people still prospered under his tenure as Hand of the King, and Tywin Himself Recognizes that Stannis Would Be A Good King. 

[Bernie Mac]

40 minutes ago, Stannis Baratheon* said:

Tywin Lannister was also not charismatic, or loved by the people, he was respected,

Tywin took over a Westerlands in absolute chaos. His rule as Hand was 20 years of peace and prosperity and he knew both how to work with others and how to treat people.

He was not likeable, but he is someone far more comfortable with the art of compromise than Stannis seems to be and Tywin manipulates others into thinking they have a say and a seat at the table.

In the Westerlands, at least, he'd built up a huge amount of good will and his House is loved there. Tywin a little so, but obviously not to the extent a young charismatic Prince like Rhaegar was.

She was ten when she finally saw her prince in the flesh, at the tourney her lord father had thrown to welcome King Aerys to the west. Viewing stands had been raised beneath the walls of Lannisport, and the cheers of the smallfolk had echoed off Casterly Rock like rolling thunder. They cheered Father twice as loudly as they cheered the king, the queen recalled, but only half as loudly as they cheered Prince Rhaegar.

This was in 276, the Defiance of Duskendale and Aerys huge change in outward insanity would come later so this reaction is a good reflection on how Tywin was viewed while Hand or within his homeland.

 

Tywin and Stannis would make unbearable dinner companions, but as leaders I'm not so sure you can base Stannis on Tywin just because they have unpleasant personalities.

 

Quote

 

or at the very least feared, and was not completely honest either, but the people still prospered under his tenure as Hand of the King, and Tywin Himself Recognizes that Stannis Would Be A Good King. 

Wait what? When does Tywin recognize that Stannis would be a good king?

[Stannis Baratheon*]

2 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Tywin took over a Westerlands in absolute chaos. His rule as Hand was 20 years of peace and prosperity and he knew both how to work with others and how to treat people.

He was not likeable, but he is someone far more comfortable with the art of compromise than Stannis seems to be and Tywin manipulates others into thinking they have a say and a seat at the table.

In the Westerlands, at least, he'd built up a huge amount of good will and his House is loved there. Tywin a little so, but obviously not to the extent a young charismatic Prince like Rhaegar was.

She was ten when she finally saw her prince in the flesh, at the tourney her lord father had thrown to welcome King Aerys to the west. Viewing stands had been raised beneath the walls of Lannisport, and the cheers of the smallfolk had echoed off Casterly Rock like rolling thunder. They cheered Father twice as loudly as they cheered the king, the queen recalled, but only half as loudly as they cheered Prince Rhaegar.

This was in 276, the Defiance of Duskendale and Aerys huge change in outward insanity would come later so this reaction is a good reflection on how Tywin was viewed while Hand or within his homeland.

 

Tywin and Stannis would make unbearable dinner companions, but as leaders I'm not so sure you can base Stannis on Tywin just because they have unpleasant personalities.

 

Wait what? When does Tywin recognize that Stannis would be a good king?

Tywin thinks that Stannis is a Bigger Threat than Renly.

[Tikhunt]

3 hours ago, Stannis Baratheon* said:

Tywin thinks that Stannis is a Bigger Threat than Renly.

That doesn't mean that Tywin thinks Stannis would be a good king, it just means Tywin thinks that Stannis is likely to cause more damage to his rule. 

[Universal Sword Donor]

On 8/2/2020 at 10:38 AM, Stannis Baratheon* said:

Renly is similar to littlefinger, in that he is charming and charismatic, and people trust him, but he could be lying and abusing that trust for his own political gain. Stannis on the other hand, you know for a fact is honest and will serve the realm.

Uhhhhh Stannis himself calls that a lie:

“ Lord Seaworth is a man of humble birth, but he reminded me of my duty, when all I could think of was my rights. I had the cart before the horse, Davos said. I was trying to win the throne to save the kingdom, when I should have been trying to save the kingdom to win the throne.”

When Stannis killed Renly, he was absolutely not looking to serve the realm and his supposed honesty means nothing if he cannot prove his main reason for usurpation, the king and his siblings being bastards. We know he cannot prove this because Renly directly asks him and he grits his teeth. In this vein most would see him no better than LF or whoever spreads propaganda. We know he also lies / downplays his involvement in Renly's murder and left his brother to die in KL while raising an army with Robert still on the throne.

I enjoy Stannis' character and his arc has become a lot more interesting but he's pretty much just the normal run of the mill shit for morals noble through ACOK. 

6 hours ago, Stannis Baratheon* said:

Tywin thinks that Stannis is a Bigger Threat than Renly.

Here's that quote: 

This is Stannis Baratheon. The man will fight to the bitter end and then some. If he is gone, it can only mean he intends to resume the war. Most likely he will land at Storm's End and try and rouse the storm lords. If so, he's finished. But a bolder man might roll the dice for Dorne. If he should win Sunspear to his cause, he might prolong this war for years. So we will not offend the Martells any further, for any reason. 

Nothing in there indicates Tywin feels he'd be a good king.

[Lee-Sensei]

On 8/3/2020 at 9:49 PM, Universal Sword Donor said:

Uhhhhh Stannis himself calls that a lie:

“ Lord Seaworth is a man of humble birth, but he reminded me of my duty, when all I could think of was my rights. I had the cart before the horse, Davos said. I was trying to win the throne to save the kingdom, when I should have been trying to save the kingdom to win the throne.”

When Stannis killed Renly, he was absolutely not looking to serve the realm and his supposed honesty means nothing if he cannot prove his main reason for usurpation, the king and his siblings being bastards. We know he cannot prove this because Renly directly asks him and he grits his teeth. In this vein most would see him no better than LF or whoever spreads propaganda. We know he also lies / downplays his involvement in Renly's murder and left his brother to die in KL while raising an army with Robert still on the throne.

I enjoy Stannis' character and his arc has become a lot more interesting but he's pretty much just the normal run of the mill shit for morals noble through ACOK. 

Here's that quote: 

This is Stannis Baratheon. The man will fight to the bitter end and then some. If he is gone, it can only mean he intends to resume the war. Most likely he will land at Storm's End and try and rouse the storm lords. If so, he's finished. But a bolder man might roll the dice for Dorne. If he should win Sunspear to his cause, he might prolong this war for years. So we will not offend the Martells any further, for any reason. 

Nothing in there indicates Tywin feels he'd be a good king.

1) I like Stannis, but I agree to an extent. Stannis seems more power hungry than a lot of people want to think he is. For most of his life, he believes that he’s been living unfairly in the shadow of his brother and to an extent even his younger brother. They were good looking, could be charming and people loved hem. I think that part of the reason that he wants the Throne is to prove one-up them.

2) On the bastardy of Roberts heirs, I think that even the suspicion is enough to set them aside. This is why there’s a double standard in the setting about adultery. A woman is always certain that the child is theirs. A man isn’t.

3) I also agree about Tywins opinion of Stannis. It’s not that he thinks that Stannis would be a better King. Stannis has a better claim, he’s more determined and he’s a proven general, where as Renly was green. I honestly think that a Renly could have been a decent King with good advisors.

[Maester Ayton]

The main thing about Renly is that he represents a further unraveling of the Westerosi social structure. The unification of the Seven Kingdoms under Aegon the Conquerer was durable enough to survive even a weak king immediately after Aegon. Aenys I was weak but the Lords Paramount and other great lords saw the value in the Kingdom and kept it going. When Targaryens were overthrown they were replaced by other Targaryens. Replacing great houses like the Rosbys and Stokeworths was seen as anathema when proposed during the Dance of Dragons. 

But instead of making the boy Viserys king and ruling as his regent Robert Baratheon made a dubious claim through his Targaryen grandmother and took over the kingdom. It worked because there was some semblance of a blood claim, more or less. Renly isn't wrong to waive it off somewhat. However the replacement of the right of succession with the right of conquest -- not seen in Targaryen history for 300 years save the attempt of the Blackfyres -- is inherently destabilizing. 

Renly Baratheon usurping his older brother and his nephew (who Renly did not know to be a bastard) alike is a huge breach of Westerosi culture and custom. Under Renly's "now we will see who is stronger" theory of succession there will be war every time a king is successfully assassinated or dies of old age. 

You can see the further unraveling of Westerosi social structure as the book goes on. House Baelish claims the Riverlands while Genna Lannister suspects Blackfish will claim it in the name of Jon Arryn. Boltons replace Starks, and multiple great houses have their lands confiscated from them permanently . One suspects that the return of Aegon Targaryen will be seen as a remarkable opportunity for a return to stability -- the opposite of that offered by Renly Baratheon.

[R2D]

1 hour ago, Maester Ayton said:

The main thing about Renly is that he represents a further unraveling of the Westerosi social structure. The unification of the Seven Kingdoms under Aegon the Conquerer was durable enough to survive even a weak king immediately after Aegon. Aenys I was weak but the Lords Paramount and other great lords saw the value in the Kingdom and kept it going. When Targaryens were overthrown they were replaced by other Targaryens. Replacing great houses like the Rosbys and Stokeworths was seen as anathema when proposed during the Dance of Dragons. 

But instead of making the boy Viserys king and ruling as his regent Robert Baratheon made a dubious claim through his Targaryen grandmother and took over the kingdom. It worked because there was some semblance of a blood claim, more or less. Renly isn't wrong to waive it off somewhat. However the replacement of the right of succession with the right of conquest -- not seen in Targaryen history for 300 years save the attempt of the Blackfyres -- is inherently destabilizing. 

Renly Baratheon usurping his older brother and his nephew (who Renly did not know to be a bastard) alike is a huge breach of Westerosi culture and custom. Under Renly's "now we will see who is stronger" theory of succession there will be war every time a king is successfully assassinated or dies of old age. 

There are countless irl Renlys who took the throne instead of others with a better claim because they were more popular or more suited to the task. There was no massive upheaval of English feudalism as a result. Not to mention Stannis' worship of the Red God is just as destabilizing .

[Loose Bolt]

11 hours ago, Maester Ayton said:

One suspects that the return of Aegon Targaryen will be seen as a remarkable opportunity for a return to stability -- the opposite of that offered by Renly Baratheon.

But many of his supporters want to gain land as a reward for their service. So there should be many noblemen in Westeros who would suspect that land would be taken from them and their heirs. Or I assume that there will be many lords who are not very happy about returning of Targs.

After all those lordlings who had gained lands that were previously hold by supporters of Targs or Blackfyres have very strong reasons to support any king who is neither one of those.

[Universal Sword Donor]

1 hour ago, Loose Bolt said:

But many of his supporters want to gain land as a reward for their service. So there should be many noblemen in Westeros who would suspect that land would be taken from them and their heirs. Or I assume that there will be many lords who are not very happy about returning of Targs.

After all those lordlings who had gained lands that were previously hold by supporters of Targs or Blackfyres have very strong reasons to support any king who is neither one of those.

Yes but Renly's ability to create powerful political alliances and be beloved by his vassals would more or less make the support for pretenders worthless.

[Lee-Sensei]

On 7/5/2020 at 10:13 PM, King17 said:

Renly was good looking and charming but that is it. He is an idiot who isn't worthy of being a king.

How was a Renly an idiot? If he hadn’t been killed, he would have won?

On 7/6/2020 at 6:42 AM, James Steller said:

I can dislike Renly without descending to homophobia. That is actually the most interesting part of his character, especially when we see Loras’ character in ASOS. I just didn’t find Renly that interesting. Stannis is often unlikable, true, but he’s my favourite character. He has a fascinating personality and a dynamic character arc ( so far anyway; I really hope GRRM changes his mind about Shireen). Renly is more of a foil to men like Eddard and the mains in ACOK; he’s an obstacle in others’ paths. He’s also just as sneaky as the other men in the Small Council and I’m struggling to remember anything he actively did as Master of Laws. 
Also, you can’t just determine how long it’s been since Cressen knew Renly, nor can you simply dismiss Olenna was homophobic. Granted, I could be mistaken, but I’m pretty sure that we never hear Cressen say how long it’s been since he saw Renly. I’m also pretty sure that Olenna never gives Loras a hard time for his relationship with Renly, and she did also support Renly’s cause (and don’t tell me that was all Mace’s doing, his mother has a very strong influence on him, just look at how effortlessly she undid the engagement between Cersei and Willas). Brienne and Loras are biased sources because they are both in love with Renly.
To be clear, I’m not saying Renly was a monster. Renly knew how to make friends and play the game. But the game itself is highly toxic and damaging to the people of Westeros. Renly won’t do anything to change things. Stannis, however, has no interest in the BS of the game and he would rather smash it and replace it with justice. Aegon III and Aegon V tried to do the same thing, and they were my favourite Targaryens by far. I’d rather back a flawed person who actually tried to make a real difference rather than just being another ambitious guy with a handsome smile. And since this came up, yes, Renly was Robert without his worst flaws, but that still doesn’t mean he’d be a good king. Robert was never going to be a good king, even if you take away his hedonistic appetites, because he was mentally weak. He avoided confrontations and he would rather turn away from a messy problem and ignore it rather than address it. In this year 2020, more than ever we are seeing the consequences of people who plug their ears and ignore basic problems within a society. Stannis wouldn’t have smiled at the sight of two dead Targaryen kids, he would have called it murder. He would have sent Jaime to the Wall for murder. He would have fought Tywin Lannister if he had to. And again, I’m not saying Stannis is without flaws. But I back him, flaws and all (for now at least) because he stands for justice in a world that is sorely lacking justice on pretty much every fundamental level.

Stannis would have sent Jaime to the Wall, but I don’t know where you’re getting that he would have gone to war with Tywin over Elia and her children from. Maybe I’m missing something.

[Lee-Sensei]

On 7/8/2020 at 2:56 PM, Lord Varys said:

I think you are speculating there too much. We don't know what Renly actually thinks - and I think it can add to his character if we assume he actually deliberately misled Cat about Stannis' intention earlier.

How little he cares about precision can be drawn from his weird reinterpretation of his own family tree as well as how he shows off his support via fires in the night (very impressive) or his claim the Dornish would join him.

Renly and his people do have an agenda - they do think they will win, as you said, but they are also not stupid. They want/expect to use Robb and his people as a means to weaken the Lannisters so that all they have to do is to clean up things in a defenseless KL.

But on the general issue:

There is no question that Renly was the best of the Baratheon brothers. Especially his ability to make fun of himself as well as his ability to make friends of so many people would have been a great asset. Chances are pretty bad that he would have gone down the deep end. His people would always forgive him even his crueler acts.

He would have been a much better king than Robert was and Stannis ever could be, how good would depend on how he got the throne (another sack and the murder of Cersei and the children would have made him a kinslayer), and how things went on later. No idea how he could have dealt with a Targaryen invasion/restoration attempt, and his own sexual preferences may have put him eventually in a Laenor/Rhaenyra-like situation with people wondering/openly doubting that Margaery's children were actually his seed.

Is there? Renly comes across like young Robert without his martial prowess and Stannis seems to be the most intelligent and well read of the brothers. As things stand in AGOT with Roberts decay and Stannis’ unwillingness to compromise, he might have been the best. I don’t think that was true as a general rule though.

[King17]

22 hours ago, Lee-Sensei said:

How was a Renly an idiot? If he hadn’t been killed, he would have won?

Stannis would have sent Jaime to the Wall, but I don’t know where you’re getting that he would have gone to war with Tywin over Elia and her children from. Maybe I’m missing something.

Robert won but I don't think anyone would call him bright.

[Lee-Sensei]

1 hour ago, King17 said:

Robert won but I don't think anyone would call him bright.

I was talking about Renly though. Not Robert. And I don’t think that Roberts particularly dumb. He seems to have been a very successful military commander. That would take a bit of intelligence, right?

Renly had a good plan for securing the Throne by the time that Robert died, he managed to gather together an army of around 100,000 men and he seemed to be a fairly capable politician. The Stormlands didn’t seem to be weakened under him either.

[King17]

1 hour ago, Lee-Sensei said:

I was talking about Renly though. Not Robert. And I don’t think that Roberts particularly dumb. He seems to have been a very successful military commander. That would take a bit of intelligence, right?

Renly had a good plan for securing the Throne by the time that Robert died, he managed to gather together an army of around 100,000 men and he seemed to be a fairly capable politician. The Stormlands didn’t seem to be weakened under him either.

Everyone who really knew renly didn't really think much of him I am just going off the text which seems to indicate renly was good looking but not all that bright.