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Lord of Raventree Hall

Why is Renly seemingly disliked in the community?

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Renly Baratheon managed to get easily the largest army during the War of Five Kings. He had many of the traits that made people love Robert, while not giving into indulgences like to much drink or food. He offered Eddard his support, was refused, and fleed the city before he would have almost certainly been in a black cell right next to Eddard (Don't tell me you think Renly's 100 swords would have made any difference against the thousands of gold cloaks). The comparison I often see is between Stannis and Renly. While as Stannis has an active fandom, Renly is often called "foolish" or just generally disliked within the fandom. However, I want you to just imagine if Melisandre and been a pretender or a liar, like almost every other person is who offer's magical solutions in ASOIAF. What would have happened at Storm's End? I will tell you, Stannis's host woulf have probably taken about one charge begore many threw down their swords and joined Renly. Hell, they might have thrown down their swords BEFORE the first charge. Renly's host was easily 4 times the size of Stannis's AND all calvarly. Stannis had no chance. Would you all call Robb a fool if while about to slaughter Ser Stafford's host, he was killed by a shadow? Would Daenerys be a fool if while she was about to take Yunkai, a shadow assassin killed her? How about Robert himself? Would he have been a fool if Rhaegar had had a shadow assassin and killed him before the battle of the trident? My point : Stannis got lucky. He trusted magic and it actually worked. Renly would have won that battle 99 out of 100 times. I have every belief that Renly would have gone on to take King's Landing. I don't care what Tywin thinks he can do : 80,000 vs. 20,000 isn't going to go in Tywin's favor. Renly also takes council from his commanders (the same commanders in many cases called intelligent when they are on the Lannisters side). Renly has the making of a good king. He can play the game of thrones, yet he is also not without honor. Renly is in between the extremes coming from the other camps. Honerable side : Stannis - Hard and unflinching (and not liked and only wins because of magic). Eddard - unflinching in his honor. Cannot adjust to the political situation. Robb - Similar problems to Eddard. He loses his war politically even while being a great battlefield commander. Balon Greyjoy - Just an idiot. Other side : Cersei and Tywin - Evil? Okay, Cersei is decent at playing tr game of thrones. However, her constant paranoia and inability to trust ANYONE will almost certainly lead to her death. She is also not liked, much like out nexg person. Tywin is a goof battlefield commander, howe er he rules by fear, and not by love. Those who follow him probably don't love him. He is hated by basucally everyone outside the Westerlands. He gets killed by his own son because he is such a douche. Roose - Also a decent strategist. Also probably universally feared and hated. Will undue him soon. Freys - Oh they gonna get owned soon. Cunning yet have made enemies all around tem. They gonna die. Even a character like Petyr Baelish - I suspect his lies are going to catch up with him. He has done well so far, but people also dislike him. I suspect he will not reach the end of this game. My point - Renly is in between. He has some cunning, and he makes sound decisions that landed him the stongest army. His plan with Robert marrying Maergerry was also a good one. He was making moves at 20 that Eddard/Jon/Stannis were too honorable to make. Yet, he is also loved and makes decent stategy. I will grant we never see him in battle, but based on what I saw he seemed capable of at least preparing to crush Stannis. Anyways, I am done. Renly had the best strategy of the five Kings. Renly had the largest army abd best chance to be a good King. He was simply undone by sorcery, basically Renly got killed by something no one, no one, could have prepared for. Any other character, any of our favorite characters, could have died this way. Robb stood against Stannis, no matter how good of a commander Robb was, he would have died the same as Renly given they'd faced him instead of Renly. Even with dragons fully grown, if Daenerys had faced a similar threat in any of her battles, she would have died. Jon, on the wall, if Ser Allister or Jonos Slynt had a sorcress, would be dead. If Cersei had a sorceress, Tyrion would be dead. Hell, if Cersei or Tyrion had a sorceress, perhaps Stannis would be dead actually. Stop hating on Renly because he died in the most ubstoppable way of any character in the entire series. Renly didn't make mistakes that led to his death, he just got unlucky.

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25 minutes ago, Foot_Of_The_King said:

He just come’s across as vain and shallow. The Donald Noye quote answers your question pretty well. 

I can't argue against an opinion. I don't think he seems shallow in what I see of him. Perhaps vain, but I would counter with more cocky than vain, and perhaps just justly confident. Most Kings/Queens border the line between confidence and cockiness. You could argue Jon/Robb/Stannis/Daenerys also border the line between confidence and being over confident. 

9 minutes ago, King17 said:

Renly was good looking and charming but that is it. He is an idiot who isn't worthy of being a king.

Evidence? Words to back up your claim. At least Foot of the King stated his opinion with "comes across". Yours is stated as a fact without a shred of evidence. Decisions we know Renly made : Escaping King's Landing before Cersei has him thrown in a black cell (smart). Offering to support Eddard and quickly take control of Joffrey, Tommen, and Myrcella before Cersie can (smart). Marrying the daughter of the Lord who controls the most swords in Westeros (smart). Hoping Robb and Tywin fight before he arrives to either weaken Tywin or end up with someone in Robb who he migbt be able to make peace with (smart). Plan to smash Stannis so no one thinks he is afraid to face Stannis and Stannis cannot gain more men (in any non-soceress having situation :Smart). Give me examples of his "idiotic" decisions. 

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8 minutes ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

I can't argue against an opinion. I don't think he seems shallow in what I see of him. Perhaps vain, but I would counter with more cocky than vain, and perhaps just justly confident. Most Kings/Queens border the line between confidence and cockiness. You could argue Jon/Robb/Stannis/Daenerys also border the line between confidence and being over confident. 

Evidence? Words to back up your claim. At least Foot of the King stated his opinion with "comes across". Yours is stated as a fact without a shred of evidence. Decisions we know Renly made : Escaping King's Landing before Cersei has him thrown in a black cell (smart). Offering to support Eddard and quickly take control of Joffrey, Tommen, and Myrcella before Cersie can (smart). Marrying the daughter of the Lord who controls the most swords in Westeros (smart). Hoping Robb and Tywin fight before he arrives to either weaken Tywin or end up with someone in Robb who he migbt be able to make peace with (smart). Plan to smash Stannis so no one thinks he is afraid to face Stannis and Stannis cannot gain more men (in any non-soceress having situation :Smart). Give me examples of his "idiotic" decisions. 

Renly never won a battle in his life and every character that really knew him from stannis,Donal noye,olenna Tyrell,maestar cressen didn't think much of him.

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14 minutes ago, King17 said:

Renly never won a battle in his life and every character that really knew him from stannis,Donal noye,olenna Tyrell,maestar cressen didn't think much of him.

Renly was like 6 years old last time Donal Noye saw him lol. Stannis has a low opinion of everyone. Maester Cressen also has probably not seen him since he was like 8. Cressen followed Stannis to Dragonstone. Renly was a child last time Cressen saw him. Olenna Tyrell is your only solid option here as a realistic opinion which I would counter with a variety of other character's opinions : Catelyn, Brienne, and Loras all mentioned things he did that were intelligent. Also, if you think Olenna and others are not clouded by homophobia and just generally prejudice against men who don't conform to normal gender stereotypes, have I got news for you. In fact, I would counter that the show's protroyal of Renly (a weakling gay trope) and homophobia, in fact, have a lot to do with the hate for Renly within the community. 

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50 minutes ago, King17 said:

Renly never won a battle in his life and every character that really knew him from stannis,Donal noye,olenna Tyrell,maestar cressen didn't think much of him.

I actually want to add more. As far as the never won a battle comment, he would have. Without a sorceress, make any argument that Renly wouldn't have won that battle. Give me your reasoning. Now, quotes that prove that your sources are probably either homophobic or don't like that Renly doesn't conform to gender norms. None of his detractors say anything about his intelligence. They all insult his sexuality or gender expression. Here we go : 
Cressen : "The bold little boy with wild black hair and laughing eyes was a man grown now, one-and-twenty, and still he played his games. Look at me, I'm a king, Cressen thought sadly. Oh, Renly, Renly, dear sweet child, do you know what you are doing? And would you care if you did? Is there anyone who cares for him but me?" - Actually this one doesn't even really insult Renly. It does suggest he is playing a game, but so is Stannis and is based on when he was 8 years old...pretty typical of an old man thinking of his child by the way (my dad does the same thing and I'm 33). The game of thrones is a dangerous one that requires a large army and smart political maneuvering (both of which Renly has over Stannis). 
Donal Noye : "Robert was the true steel. Stannis is pure iron, black and hard and strong, yes, but brittle, the way iron gets. He'll break before he bends. And Renly, that one, he's copper, bright and shiny, pretty to look at but not worth all that much at the end of the day." - Again, this is based on when Renly was like 6 years old, lol. But I digress, obviously pointing out again that Renly likes pretty things which could be either homophobic or just generally against people who against gender norms. There isn't much substance to his argument as he doesn't know Renly essentially at all as an adult. 
Olenna : "He knew how to dress and he knew how to smile and he knew how to bathe, and somehow he got the notion that this made him fit to be king." - Again, this doesn't actually insult Renly's intelligence or ability to be a good King, it just insults that he wears nice clothes and is....good at making people love him? So again, could be homophobic or against Renly's gender expression, certainly does nothing to suggest he is actually bad at anything. Also, has Olenna ever been on Renly's war councils? I doubt it. 
Stannis : "What has Renly ever done to earn a throne? He sits in council and jests with Littlefinger, and at tourneys he dons his splendid suit of armor and allows himself to be knocked off his horse by a better man. That is the sum of my brother Renly, who thinks he ought to be king." - Renly lost to the Hound, who won the whole damn tourney, during the one tourney we watched and is mentioned by Sansa as performing well. So we have direct evidence of part of this being false (what is he supposed to win the damn tourney or be worthless?) His jests with Littlefinger are part of a political strategy. Tyrion, a well beloved character, jests with Littlefinger. And now I will argue my counter point : "What the fuck has Stannis ever done to earn a throne?" - Lord of Raventree Hall. - So here is my honest question, if Daenerys shows up, will Stannis bend a knee? How about to Aegon? No right. You know he won't. Which means Stannis has no more right to sit the Iron Throne than Renly does. None. 0. His entire argument is that he is next in line, but in fact Daenerys is first in line (for sure) or Aegon (maybe). Stannis is a horrible politician (and only Davos convinces him to be decent ....at the end of the third book) and not being loved...is a sign you aren't fit to be King. As several characters mention, if Eddard had somehow convinced Robert Stannis should have been his heir, it would have led to war. Many characters mention Stannis would have gone to war no matter what. 

Okay, I'm done. There is my response. 

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1 minute ago, Mithras said:

If by "community" you mean the vocal Stannis fandom? Yes, Renly is His Satanic Majesty.

Valid and hilarious. As I stated above, I do think it is to make Stannis look better that Renly gets slandered so much. The only argument Stannis has over Renly is birth, which is quickly shown to be just a false flag when you consider that if Daenerys shows up, he ain't gonna bend a knee. However, I do think Renly is generally slandered by the fandom. 

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, King17 said:

Renly never won a battle in his life and every character that really knew him from stannis,Donal noye,olenna Tyrell,maestar cressen didn't think much of him.

Cressen has no real negative opinion of him tho. 

If i were to guess, it's both because Renly is an ass and especially because Renly opposed Stannis. Especially outside this community where Stannis is an absolute fan fav.

 

I don't really know whether winning a battle makes you worthy enough tho

Edited by frenin

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It is what some other main characters think of him. To be bon vivant, a man caring (too) much about his look seems to be controversial in Westeros. Their thoughts are transmitted to our minds and we're taking them as our own, because in our world it is quite similar. Celebrities are popular among masses but also scorned by many. Homophobia may also be part of the issue.

 

 

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5 hours ago, King17 said:

Renly was good looking and charming but that is it. He is an idiot who isn't worthy of being a king.

This would also be the same reason why a lot of us would resent the mere idea of a queen sansa or a first lady of the north sansa. 

To Renly's credit, he was at least willing to take to the field and do battle with his brother.  He is at least willing to put his life at risk.  I do not think we can accuse Renly of being cowardly.  

6 hours ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

Renly Baratheon managed to get easily the largest army during the War of Five Kings. He had many of the traits that made people love Robert, while not giving into indulgences like to much drink or food. He offered Eddard his support, was refused, and fleed the city before he would have almost certainly been in a black cell right next to Eddard (Don't tell me you think Renly's 100 swords would have made any difference against the thousands of gold cloaks). The comparison I often see is between Stannis and Renly. While as Stannis has an active fandom, Renly is often called "foolish" or just generally disliked within the fandom. However, I want you to just imagine if Melisandre and been a pretender or a liar, like almost every other person is who offer's magical solutions in ASOIAF. What would have happened at Storm's End? I will tell you, Stannis's host woulf have probably taken about one charge begore many threw down their swords and joined Renly. Hell, they might have thrown down their swords BEFORE the first charge. Renly's host was easily 4 times the size of Stannis's AND all calvarly. Stannis had no chance. Would you all call Robb a fool if while about to slaughter Ser Stafford's host, he was killed by a shadow? Would Daenerys be a fool if while she was about to take Yunkai, a shadow assassin killed her? How about Robert himself? Would he have been a fool if Rhaegar had had a shadow assassin and killed him before the battle of the trident? My point : Stannis got lucky. He trusted magic and it actually worked. Renly would have won that battle 99 out of 100 times. I have every belief that Renly would have gone on to take King's Landing. I don't care what Tywin thinks he can do : 80,000 vs. 20,000 isn't going to go in Tywin's favor. Renly also takes council from his commanders (the same commanders in many cases called intelligent when they are on the Lannisters side). Renly has the making of a good king. He can play the game of thrones, yet he is also not without honor. Renly is in between the extremes coming from the other camps. Honerable side : Stannis - Hard and unflinching (and not liked and only wins because of magic). Eddard - unflinching in his honor. Cannot adjust to the political situation. Robb - Similar problems to Eddard. He loses his war politically even while being a great battlefield commander. Balon Greyjoy - Just an idiot. Other side : Cersei and Tywin - Evil? Okay, Cersei is decent at playing tr game of thrones. However, her constant paranoia and inability to trust ANYONE will almost certainly lead to her death. She is also not liked, much like out nexg person. Tywin is a goof battlefield commander, howe er he rules by fear, and not by love. Those who follow him probably don't love him. He is hated by basucally everyone outside the Westerlands. He gets killed by his own son because he is such a douche. Roose - Also a decent strategist. Also probably universally feared and hated. Will undue him soon. Freys - Oh they gonna get owned soon. Cunning yet have made enemies all around tem. They gonna die. Even a character like Petyr Baelish - I suspect his lies are going to catch up with him. He has done well so far, but people also dislike him. I suspect he will not reach the end of this game. My point - Renly is in between. He has some cunning, and he makes sound decisions that landed him the stongest army. His plan with Robert marrying Maergerry was also a good one. He was making moves at 20 that Eddard/Jon/Stannis were too honorable to make. Yet, he is also loved and makes decent stategy. I will grant we never see him in battle, but based on what I saw he seemed capable of at least preparing to crush Stannis. Anyways, I am done. Renly had the best strategy of the five Kings. Renly had the largest army abd best chance to be a good King. He was simply undone by sorcery, basically Renly got killed by something no one, no one, could have prepared for. Any other character, any of our favorite characters, could have died this way. Robb stood against Stannis, no matter how good of a commander Robb was, he would have died the same as Renly given they'd faced him instead of Renly. Even with dragons fully grown, if Daenerys had faced a similar threat in any of her battles, she would have died. Jon, on the wall, if Ser Allister or Jonos Slynt had a sorcress, would be dead. If Cersei had a sorceress, Tyrion would be dead. Hell, if Cersei or Tyrion had a sorceress, perhaps Stannis would be dead actually. Stop hating on Renly because he died in the most ubstoppable way of any character in the entire series. Renly didn't make mistakes that led to his death, he just got unlucky.

Renly gets his share of dislike among the community but so does Stannis.  I dislike them both.  The only Baratheon who is not disliked by many is Shireen.  

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Posted (edited)

Here's my take:

  • Renly made a bad situation (a civil war) much worse because he had to go and leapfrog the line of succession by declaring himself King. He divided the Stormlands, Robb would have fallen into line behind Stannis if Renly didn't crown himself, and Balon wouldn't have felt the need to declare himself King and attack the North, leading to the Red Wedding.
  • His actions prior to Robert's death by trying to get Robert to dispose of Cersei and marry Margaery suggests that he knew of the incest since nobody except a fanatic like Baelor the Blessed sets aside their wife; not even the book-obsessed Aerys I set his wife aside. So he would know that Stannis is the rightful King and, again, is making things worse.
Edited by Angel Eyes

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2 hours ago, Allardyce said:

This would also be the same reason why a lot of us would resent the mere idea of a queen sansa or a first lady of the north sansa. 

To Renly's credit, he was at least willing to take to the field and do battle with his brother.  He is at least willing to put his life at risk.  I do not think we can accuse Renly of being cowardly.  

Renly gets his share of dislike among the community but so does Stannis.  I dislike them both.  The only Baratheon who is not disliked by many is Shireen.  

And Renly bullies Stannis about her during the parlay, insinuating that Shireen is not really his daughter.

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I can dislike Renly without descending to homophobia. That is actually the most interesting part of his character, especially when we see Loras’ character in ASOS. I just didn’t find Renly that interesting. Stannis is often unlikable, true, but he’s my favourite character. He has a fascinating personality and a dynamic character arc ( so far anyway; I really hope GRRM changes his mind about Shireen). Renly is more of a foil to men like Eddard and the mains in ACOK; he’s an obstacle in others’ paths. He’s also just as sneaky as the other men in the Small Council and I’m struggling to remember anything he actively did as Master of Laws. 
Also, you can’t just determine how long it’s been since Cressen knew Renly, nor can you simply dismiss Olenna was homophobic. Granted, I could be mistaken, but I’m pretty sure that we never hear Cressen say how long it’s been since he saw Renly. I’m also pretty sure that Olenna never gives Loras a hard time for his relationship with Renly, and she did also support Renly’s cause (and don’t tell me that was all Mace’s doing, his mother has a very strong influence on him, just look at how effortlessly she undid the engagement between Cersei and Willas). Brienne and Loras are biased sources because they are both in love with Renly.
To be clear, I’m not saying Renly was a monster. Renly knew how to make friends and play the game. But the game itself is highly toxic and damaging to the people of Westeros. Renly won’t do anything to change things. Stannis, however, has no interest in the BS of the game and he would rather smash it and replace it with justice. Aegon III and Aegon V tried to do the same thing, and they were my favourite Targaryens by far. I’d rather back a flawed person who actually tried to make a real difference rather than just being another ambitious guy with a handsome smile. And since this came up, yes, Renly was Robert without his worst flaws, but that still doesn’t mean he’d be a good king. Robert was never going to be a good king, even if you take away his hedonistic appetites, because he was mentally weak. He avoided confrontations and he would rather turn away from a messy problem and ignore it rather than address it. In this year 2020, more than ever we are seeing the consequences of people who plug their ears and ignore basic problems within a society. Stannis wouldn’t have smiled at the sight of two dead Targaryen kids, he would have called it murder. He would have sent Jaime to the Wall for murder. He would have fought Tywin Lannister if he had to. And again, I’m not saying Stannis is without flaws. But I back him, flaws and all (for now at least) because he stands for justice in a world that is sorely lacking justice on pretty much every fundamental level.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Angel Eyes said:

Robb would have fallen into line behind Stannis if Renly didn't crown himself

Why?? I don't see the correlation, Robb made clear that he wasn't backing Renly but that didn't make him any more prone to back Stannis, Robb's problem was that at the time of his coronation, Tommen and Joffrey were believed by all, but Stannis, Robert's sons.

 

 

1 hour ago, Angel Eyes said:

He divided the Stormlands

He didn't, the Stormlands were sworn to him and they loved him more, even if Renly didn't crown himself, that doesn't mean the Stormlands are going to back Stannis, not while Renly has a say on that.

 

1 hour ago, Angel Eyes said:

and Balon wouldn't have felt the need to declare himself King and attack the North, leading to the Red Wedding.

Again, i don't see the correlation, Balon's only deterrents were Robert and Ned, with both dead he was free to act, you can put the blame of the Red Wedding in Stannis's loss at the Blackwater, Robb's marriage and Theon's capture of Winterfell.

 

Quote

And Renly bullies Stannis about her during the parlay, insinuating that Shireen is not really his daughter.

Truth be told that was nasty but Stannis mocked him for being gay... So, if you don't like the heat...

 

 

 

1 hour ago, Angel Eyes said:
  • His actions prior to Robert's death by trying to get Robert to dispose of Cersei and marry Margaery suggests that he knew of the incest since nobody except a fanatic like Baelor the Blessed sets aside their wife; not even the book-obsessed Aerys I set his wife aside. So he would know that Stannis is the rightful King and, again, is making things worse.

He didn't know that, Kings can set aside his wife, Aerys 1 certainly had the power to do so, he simply wasn't interested in doing it.

 

1 hour ago, James Steller said:

Stannis wouldn’t have smiled at the sight of two dead Targaryen kids, he would have called it murder.

The same Stannis who sent Gilly and her child to di beyond the wall because "this is not King's Landing" or tried to roast his own nephew, Stannis is very good at finding euphemisms.

 

 

Edited by frenin

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45 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

Here's my take:

  • Renly made a bad situation (a civil war) much worse because he had to go and leapfrog the line of succession by declaring himself King. He divided the Stormlands, Robb would have fallen into line behind Stannis if Renly didn't crown himself, and Balon wouldn't have felt the need to declare himself King and attack the North, leading to the Red Wedding.
  • His actions prior to Robert's death by trying to get Robert to dispose of Cersei and marry Margaery suggests that he knew of the incest since nobody except a fanatic like Baelor the Blessed sets aside their wife; not even the book-obsessed Aerys I set his wife aside. So he would know that Stannis is the rightful King and, again, is making things worse.

Lol, okay I can refute both of your points. "MY LORDS! Here is what I say to these two kings! Renly Baratheon is nothing to me, nor Stannis neither. Why should they rule over me and mine, from some flowery seat in Highgarden or Dorne? What do they know of the Wall or the wolfswood or the barrows of the First Men? Even their gods are wrong. The Others take the Lannisters too, I've had a bellyful of them. Why shouldn't we rule ourselves again? It was the dragons we married, and the dragons are all dead! There sits the only king I mean to bow my knee to, m'lords. The King in the North!" - The Great Jon would have declared for Robb regardless. There is no suggestion that Robb would have "fallen in line" with Stannis. Give any evidence that this is true. I would argue he, given that Stannis didn't murder him, would have actually ended the warring much quicker. In fact, I think that is the reason GRRM killed him. If Renly slaughtered Stannis's small army and descended on King's Landing, it would take more than sorcery for the war to not end extremely soon after that. Balon was crowning himself no matter what as well. He states the reason he crowns himself again is because Robert and Eddard died who were the ones he set his crown aside for. Renly not declaring, nor Robb not declaring, doesn't make Balon more intelligent, lol. 


Second point - "Do you suppose this tale of his is true?" - Renly to Catelyn. In other words, he didn't know it was true or not. Renly clearly doesn't care for tradition. The same reason he would have had Cersei set aside is the same reason he declared himself King. He is a progressive. A Westeros progressive lol. He thinks the best should lead and people should be able to set aside their wives if they aren't good wives. He puts a woman on his kingsguard. He does a lot of things that suggests he wants to change tradition.  Also, for sure, the Lannisters were a threat and the only one who didn't seem to realize that was Robert. Also, although part of him is embarrassed of Robert, he probably also looks up to him. He was loyal to Robert (unlike Stannis) and I think he probably suspected that Cersei would try to have him murdered soon. Not only that, but Robert leap frogged the line of succession. It set a standard that Renly felt should be the way things were now. But more importantly, and I want you and everyone here to realize this. 1. If Renly had stayed in the city, Cersei would have had him sent to the wall or murdered. Renly cannot exist in a Lannister regime. 2. If Renly gave way to Stannis, which only makes sense if Renly knows Stannis is the true King, but lets say he does for this example, then I hate to tell you this, but : Highgarden and the Reach no longer declare for Renly. Mace Tyrell doesn't want his daughter to be the wife of the Lord of Storm's End. He wants her to be the wife of a King. This is a really important point Stannis-stans are missing. Stannis was not liked. With Renly's support, he might have raised the Stormlands...but that's it. Robb still declares himself King. Robb actually probably does want to make peace with Stannis, but...Stannis won't bend (unlike Renly where I think something could have been worked out eventually, even something like Renly being the "High King" and Robb being a lesser King. He mentions this to Catelyn). The War still proceeds as it did, only I guess Stannis has a better chance on the Blackwater as Renly will be there..and perhaps more loyalty form his Lords...but also less of his Lords. If Littlefinger still arranges Margerry's marriage to Joffrey, I suspect Stannis and Renly will indeed still lose. Stannis-stans have created a new world which isn't represented by the actual happenings in the book. Robb declared after his bannermen essentially says, "Who cares about Stannis, etc." Balon would have declared no matter what after Eddard and Robert died. And Renly following Stannis doesn't make anyone else declare for him. Oh wait, one more, also Littlefinger, and more importantly Varys, want war so that Aegon can ride easily to victory..so if somehow, by some miracle, get the Reach (I doubt it, but lets just say), Varys will fuck that up somehow so that war still happens (like he did by killing Kevan). 

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Posted (edited)

Re: setting aside Cersei,

It's not at all evidence that he "knew about the incest", and it's worth noting that no one else in the novels believes he was motivated by knowledge of the incest -- even people who knew about the incest (Cersei, Pycelle, Stannis) only understood that Stannis knew, and Renly is never raised in this connection. When Stannis speaks in defense of his own allegations to Renly, he doesn't question that Renly doesn't believe it; he could have said, "Of course you knew about it", but he never does.

More importantly, the essence of Renly's views on laws and precedents are in his comments regarding Robert's claim to the throne, in which he basically says that it's all paper thin fiction to please septons and maesters, but at the end of the day it was  having power that made Robert king. Renly doesn't believe in precedents as providing limitations if you have the power to over-ride them. Hence, whether there was precedent or not for setting Cersei aside, what he believed was that Robert as king had the potential to set aside Cersei because he wanted to, and could back it up through force thanks to his ties to the Arryns, Tullys, Starks, and of course Renly, plus the Tyrells in the scenario where he wanted to marry Margaery.

 

Edited by Ran

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1 hour ago, James Steller said:

Renly is more of a foil to men like Eddard and the mains in ACOK; he’s an obstacle in others’ paths. He’s also just as sneaky as the other men in the Small Council and I’m struggling to remember anything he actively did as Master of Laws. 

Renly tries to help Eddard. If Eddard had not just thought of his position as a temporary one while he was trying to find why Jon Arryn was murdered, he would have been smart to try to create relationships with both Renly Baratheon and Barristan Selmy. I would agree, we don't see much of what Renly does, but that is because Eddard basically deals with 3 things in the first book : 1. The Hand's Tourney. 2. Daenerys's attempted murder. and 3. Jon Arryn's murder. We don't really see much else. Also, my point was that Renly seem honerable, yet also can play the game. I think he is in between. 

1 hour ago, James Steller said:

Also, you can’t just determine how long it’s been since Cressen knew Renly, nor can you simply dismiss Olenna was homophobic. Granted, I could be mistaken, but I’m pretty sure that we never hear Cressen say how long it’s been since he saw Renly. I’m also pretty sure that Olenna never gives Loras a hard time for his relationship with Renly, and she did also support Renly’s cause (and don’t tell me that was all Mace’s doing, his mother has a very strong influence on him, just look at how effortlessly she undid the engagement between Cersei and Willas). Brienne and Loras are biased sources because they are both in love with Renly.

As far as Olenna goes, it seems like you are kind of supporting my point here since you aren't suggesting Olenna even disliked him. Cressen barely insulted him, and his main point is just that Renly should support Stannis who Cressen loves. 

 

1 hour ago, James Steller said:

To be clear, I’m not saying Renly was a monster. Renly knew how to make friends and play the game. But the game itself is highly toxic and damaging to the people of Westeros. Renly won’t do anything to change things. Stannis, however, has no interest in the BS of the game and he would rather smash it and replace it with justice. Aegon III and Aegon V tried to do the same thing, and they were my favourite Targaryens by far. 

Oh, I think Renly will make changes. He seems progressive in what little we see of him. A good example was when he put Brienne on his King's Guard. This is a progressive move. He is also desperately searching for Barristan Selmy. He wants people with honor in his new regime. I think Renly would have more closely resembled an Aegon V then Stannis...but perhaps in Aegon III you could be a little right. I think a Stannis Kingship, especially say if nothing else had happened and Stannis had just been handed power, would have looked like something in between Aegon III and Maegor the Cruel. He murdered his brother. He murdered a castellan. He wanted to murder his nephew who was only saved by Davos Seaworth. I, much like you think of Renly, don't hate Stannis, nor do I think he is a monster. However, he is a gray character. His idea of justice will lead to more innocents dying. Going to war over the murder of single person is stupid. Stannis is just the kind of person to do that, even though he himself murdered his own brother. Now, I don't want you to get me wrong, again, I like Stannis to an extent. But honestly, I think he is a truly awful politician. You act like politics will cease just because Stannis I presume murders everyone currently in politics. Cortney Penrose is a great example of what Stannis has done when politicians disagree with him. He just kills them. Oh, and do you remember when he burns the people's current gods and then sacrifices those that don't want his god's to R'hllor. Or did we all forget that he is supporting an extremist religion to replace the religions of his followers and was perfectly okay with Lord Sunglass (don't make me look up his name) and others being sacrificed simply because they refused to support a King who would burn their gods. They tried to leave peacefully. Stannis had them burned to death. Your suggestions seems to be that Stannis is progressive, looking to fix and advance society, but R'hllor is the opposite of progressive and it is the religion he is supporting. It, especially the version supported by Melisandre and Selyse, is one that seems to suggest all other religions much be replaced and be burned. Aegon V, who you mentioned, would support freedom of religion (something I could see Renly doing as well). Also, Aegon V central deal was trying to give the small folks more rights essentially (a truly progressive agenda). When has Stannis mentioned doing something like this? He is only obsessed with becoming King (because it is his right!!! according to him) and I guess by the fifth book, in protecting the realm from the Others (this is certainly a good thing, like I said he is gray). Okay, I'm done. You are clearly a Stannis-stan, so nothing I will say here will change your mind. I think Renly would have made the best King of all the options we had; but I'm also not a Renly-stan. I think I've already stated my reasons why I think Renly would be a good king above. 

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Quote

What do the smallfolk say of Renly's death?"
"They grieve. Your brother was well loved."
"Fools love a fool," grumbled Stannis, "but I grieve for him as well. For the boy he was, not the man he grew to be." He was silent for a time,

 

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