Why is Renly seemingly disliked in the community?

[Universal Sword Donor]

15 hours ago, Orm said:

This really gets me thinking what will happen when Dany neutralises Aegon...... I mean she can't prove dick that Aegon may not be what he says/believes....... And if she kills him will she get the Stannis treatment?

I've always thought that the dragons would be the ones to tell. There's certainly been enough foreshadowing with BBP and Dany.

Quote

We have very different angles of seeing this. But as I said Mace the Ace will do whatever the real players of his family decides....... That backed with Renly/Loras I think Tyrells will respect  what Renly decides and work from there.... Stannis being for then doesn't squash their ambitions at all

Mace is the real player from where I sit. Olenna was ostensibly against the marriage alliance with Renly, and she wasn't in Bitterbridge when LF came to parlay and offer a royal marriage.

[Many-Faced Votary]

Robert, Stannis, and Renly are second cousins to Rhaegar, Viserys, and Daenerys. Had Rhaegar and Viserys died early, and assuming that Daenerys was not born and that Rhaella becoming Queen Regnant would be looked upon unfavorably due to her being female, upon the natural death of Aerys II, Robert would almost certainly have been anointed as king. (It is also possible that his heirs would have taken the House name Targaryen in this case.)

Yes, Robert himself says his warhammer was his claim to the Iron Throne. However, he is wrong, or at most partially right, and the book makes this clear with the aforementioned kinship. The feudal structure, existing laws of inheritance for the nobility, and the new royal line were all maintained due to the predication that Robert could have been and effectively became the heir of Aerys II once the main Targaryen branch was deposed; the maesters indubitably include this in their histories to smooth the pseudo-succession. This is why no one seriously considered Jon Arryn, the de facto leader of Robert's Rebellion, or Ned Stark, otherwise in a very similar position to Robert, for kingship. Everyone could pretend that the social contracts still held true, and thereby maintain peace; had Robert's claim been considered one of conquest, we would have necessarily had bloody war every generation because all the nobility would have wanted the Iron Throne for themselves. (Renly winning would still have been much worse than this hypothetical, incidentally, because his claim explicitly repudiated succession, he did not bother allying with any Great House save the Tyrells, his claims of "merit" were what he decided constituted such, and his rebellion did not include deposing a monarch who failed in his feudal obligations.)

House Baratheon also had strong ties with House Targaryen because Orys Baratheon was Aegon I Targaryen's half-brother, which most Westerosi nobility likely did not care about but which probably mattered to the maesters who covered the new dynasty.

[Lord Varys]

1 hour ago, Many-Faced Votary said:

Robert, Stannis, and Renly are second cousins to Rhaegar, Viserys, and Daenerys. Had Rhaegar and Viserys died early, and assuming that Daenerys was not born and that Rhaella becoming Queen Regnant would be looked upon unfavorably due to her being female, upon the natural death of Aerys II, Robert would almost certainly have been anointed as king. (It is also possible that his heirs would have taken the House name Targaryen in this case.)

It is not jus that - when we look at Rhaenyra's personal arms as well as the arms of Harrold Hardyng then they both included the arms of their ancestors - Rhaenyra had the Velaryon arms of her first husband as well as the Arryn arms of her mother, Queen Aemma Arryn, in her personal sigil, and Harrold Hardyng even presumes to include the moon-and-falcon of his Arryn grandmother into his sigil.

Robert/Stannis/Renly could - and Stannis still can - include the three-headed dragon of House Targaryen into his personal sigil since his grandmother was a Targaryen, too.

Whether anyone would have changed their family name is another question entirely. Considering the fact that the Blackfyres never called themselves Targaryen although they were Targaryens I don't see a good reason that the Baratheons would have felt the need to change their names if they had inherited the throne in a peaceful manner - sort of like Laenor Velaryon nearly became king. I don't think he or his son Jacaerys Velaryon would have changed his name had he taken the Iron Throne. It is part of your personal pride that you stick with your father's name.

1 hour ago, Many-Faced Votary said:

Yes, Robert himself says his warhammer was his claim to the Iron Throne. However, he is wrong, or at most partially right, and the book makes this clear with the aforementioned kinship. The feudal structure, existing laws of inheritance for the nobility, and the new royal line were all maintained due to the predication that Robert could have been and effectively became the heir of Aerys II once the main Targaryen branch was deposed; the maesters indubitably include this in their histories to smooth the pseudo-succession. This is why no one seriously considered Jon Arryn, the de facto leader of Robert's Rebellion, or Ned Stark, otherwise in a very similar position to Robert, for kingship. Everyone could pretend that the social contracts still held true, and thereby maintain peace; had Robert's claim been considered one of conquest, we would have necessarily had bloody war every generation because all the nobility would have wanted the Iron Throne for themselves. (Renly winning would still have been much worse than this hypothetical, incidentally, because his claim explicitly repudiated succession, he did not bother allying with any Great House save the Tyrells, his claims of "merit" were what he decided constituted such, and his rebellion did not include deposing a monarch who failed in his feudal obligations.)

We actually have spill out all that when they talk about why Robert became king - because he had the better claim. Ned and Jon had none or at best very obscure claims.

As for the conquest stuff: This would only work reasonably if a new dynasty came to power by means of invasion from another land or something along those lines. If there is a civil war then people usually don't frame that as one side conquering the land they might eventually rule. Franco did not 'conquer' Spain, for instance. And in a medieval succession war/rebellion there is even less conquering be done because the contested issue is just who is the king, not who literally conquers an entire nation/population the contestants are already part of.

And to be sure - even Aegon's Conquest wasn't that much of an invasion by an enemy army but more a propaganda victory where the Conqueror took over the assembled armies of the land he was conquering and used them then against his enemies. He didn't have many troops of his own on the Field of Fire or when he confronted Torrhen Stark. But he conquered the kingdoms he conquered in the sense that he forced their kings to accept him as their overlord - and that's how conquest is done in a medieval setting.

1 hour ago, Many-Faced Votary said:

House Baratheon also had strong ties with House Targaryen because Orys Baratheon was Aegon I Targaryen's half-brother, which most Westerosi nobility likely did not care about but which probably mattered to the maesters who covered the new dynasty.

This fact isn't cited all that much, it is more the fact that Steffon's sons are the closest cousins Aerys II and his descendants had left. Robert was their closest heir, anyway. But with FaB it is pretty clear that Orys and his grandsons were seen as very close relations of the Targaryens by Jaehaerys I and his government, and this went so far that people on the council think Lord Rogar could usurp the throne himself when he declares that they will have to depose Jaehaerys I. 200 years later this fact alone wouldn't put the Baratheons that close to the Iron Throne (although the fact that they seem to be descended from Orys and thus Lord Aerion Targaryen in unbroken male line might not be insignificant) but for that they have grandmother Rhaelle Targaryen.

In fact, if we go back to the early reign of the Conqueror - the first seven years when he didn't have an heir of his own body - one imagines that Orys and Argella's eldest son (who must have been born in 1 AC to be old enough to reasonably father Rogar in 16-17 AC) was one of the presumptive heirs of the Conqueror and his sister-wives in case they wouldn't have had any children of their own. Another candidate may have been Daemon Velaryon, Queen Alyssa's elder brother. We don't know much about this era, but if we consider how important succession issues were for later kings, then the fact that Aegon I didn't have children for years and years would have been a very serious issue, especially as the First Dornish War took up steam.

The confusion people have with this whole issue is that the close Targaryen-Baratheon kinship is only introduced in AFfC. Prior to that we have Renly's weirdo speech about how he and Robert aren't that closely related to the Targaryens when in fact Steffon's sons came immediately after Viserys III in the succession if we ignore the women (and if we count them then they came immediately after Viserys III and Dany - at least after Rhaella's death in childbirth).

That means Robert's legal claim was actually pretty much the strongest after Viserys III himself - regardless whether he had a war hammer or not.

In that sense, the best way to make sense of things there is to interpret Robert's war hammer talk as part of his attempt to distance himself as much from the Targaryens as he could. He is one himself even if he doesn't like to admit it, but as king he certainly can pretend he isn't.

Renly definitely heard this talk and took it to heart. What seems to be mostly talk on Robert's part becomes reality for Renly in his bid for the throne. He, too, has a claim to the throne as Robert's brother and great-grandson of Aegon V, but quite a few people come before him, he wasn't wronged in any big way, and really has no pretext to rebel ... but does it either way because he wants to be king and has reason to believe his war hammer army is the most powerful.

[Orm]

7 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

He took the throne, he conquered nothing. He killed his cousins and then the rebels propped him up as the next king. He is just a black-haired Targaryen.

As far as I recall, the only Targ Bob killed was Rhaegar (rightfully so)....... He is first non-targ to sit the irone-throne..........That is proof enough that the Targaryens are deposed from thier position as rulers.....

 

7 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

If it had died, then Robert wouldn't have made king on the basis that he was a Targaryen descendant himself, the great-grandson of Aegon V.

Robert did not make king because he is the great-grandson of Aegon V..... He made king via leading successful rebellion and deposing of the previous rulers....... 

His blood relation to the Targs is only brought up to smooth things with Targ loyalist, maintain a sense of continuity and make the whole war seem as a family affair(which it was not)......

7 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Stannis helped Robert to usurp the throne. Thus he cannot fault others for usurping the throne which he is trying to usurp, too. The man has no proof that Cersei's children aren't Robert's, and thus he has actually no right to lay claim to the throne. And he cannot complain when others are honest usurpers - just as Robert was, too.

The only thing Stannis did during the war was defend the ancient sit of his family.......By the time he was called to capture dragon-stone Bob was already king and he was his heir for the time being........

Stannis was never a usurper when he declared war on Joffrey and Renly. He gives Joffrey the benefit of the doubt that he truly believes he is Bob's son and condemns the real culprits Cersei and Jaime. Renly had no excuse........Stannis came before him, period

7 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

He is just a black-haired Targaryen

Again more Durrandon than Targaryen.....

[Universal Sword Donor]

8 hours ago, Orm said:

Stannis was never a usurper when he declared war on Joffrey and Renly. He gives Joffrey the benefit of the doubt that he truly believes he is Bob's son and condemns the real culprits Cersei and Jaime. Renly had no excuse........Stannis came before him, period

In the eyes of Westeros he and Renly were usurpers and yet they still drew support, and that counts for something. Whether or not he was going to kill Joff / Myrcella / Tommen, he definitely didn't give them the benefit of the doubt:

"Joffrey is not my brother's seed," Stannis said bluntly. "Nor is Tommen. They are bastards. The girl as well. All three of them abominations born of incest."

8 hours ago, Orm said:

Again more Durrandon than Targaryen.....

Orys Baratheon, the alleged half Targ, had black eyes, hair and beard. Argilac had black hair as well. Not sure on his eye color

 

[Orm]

41 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

Whether or not he was going to kill Joff / Myrcella / Tommen, he definitely didn't give them the benefit of the doubt:

I meant that he gave Joffrey the benefit of the doubt that Joffrey truly believes that he is Bob's son(and Joffrey did believe so) not that it is actually the case......... I read the books a long time a go but I know there is a quote somewhere.........

 

41 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

In the eyes of Westeros he and Renly were usurpers and yet they still drew support, and that counts for something.

If you read westerosi history as well as the real midieval history of our world then you would know this is the case almost every time.........But Stannis had legit basis.... 

 

41 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

Orys Baratheon, the alleged half Targ, had black eyes, hair and beard. Argilac had black hair as well. Not sure on his eye color

This is tempting me to start a thread on why Baratheons are rebranded Durrandons......... Regardless of who Orys actually was( I do think he was legit half-targ and important to Aegon) it doesn't change the fact that his sons with Argella were the only grandsons of Argilac, making them the only heirs to Argilac's crown and name..........Either Orys was a good dude who had nothing against Argella personally and did her the courtesy to continue her line with a rebranded name or he was very shrewd and realised that assimilating with a 8000 year old bloodline is much better than just usurping it's place.... possibly a mix of both....... Having said that Roger, Boremund, Borris, Lyonel and Robert are all echoes of Argilac Durrandon....

And the thick black hair, stormy blue eyes is the Durrandon pheno-type. Orys just happened to have the black hair trait in common with the Durrandons. And the persistence of this pheno-type might have something to do with the demi-god origins of Durrandons and by extension Baratheons.

[Universal Sword Donor]

9 minutes ago, Orm said:

I meant that he gave Joffrey the benefit of the doubt that Joffrey truly believes that he is Bob's son(and Joffrey did believe so) not that it is actually the case......... I read the books a long time a go but I know there is a quote somewhere.........

I don't recall ever seeing a similar quote but the mind wanders and forgets things. If you find it, please post it. Puts things in a different light.

9 minutes ago, Orm said:

If you read westerosi history as well as the real midieval history of our world then you would know this is the case almost every time.........But Stannis had legit basis.... =

He has a legit basis he can't prove. We know he's the legal heir. Basically no one else does and can prove it. So he's a usurper just like Renly.

[Lord Varys]

9 hours ago, Orm said:

As far as I recall, the only Targ Bob killed was Rhaegar (rightfully so)....... He is first non-targ to sit the irone-throne..........That is proof enough that the Targaryens are deposed from thier position as rulers.....

LOL, Robert didn't kill Rhaegar 'rightfully so'. He just killed him in battle. Could have gone the other way. And of course Robert killed Aerys II and Elia and the children in the sense it was done in his name and by men he later did not punish but instead rewarded (Tywin by marrying his daughter, Jaime by keeping him in the KG).

To depose somebody you have actually capture that person(s) and do some sort of trial/legal issue. Like Aegon I did with the kings he conquered. They gave up their crowns as part of the deals they made ... which Queen Rhaella and Viserys III never did.

9 hours ago, Orm said:

Robert did not make king because he is the great-grandson of Aegon V..... He made king via leading successful rebellion and deposing of the previous rulers.......

The rebels only propped up Robert as a pretender because he his grandma was a Targaryen. If he hadn't been that closely related to the royal family they would have used a different pretender, one assumes.

9 hours ago, Orm said:

His blood relation to the Targs is only brought up to smooth things with Targ loyalist, maintain a sense of continuity and make the whole war seem as a family affair(which it was not)......

No, it is also brought up by Eddard Stark, one of the leaders of the Rebellion.

9 hours ago, Orm said:

The only thing Stannis did during the war was defend the ancient sit of his family.......By the time he was called to capture dragon-stone Bob was already king and he was his heir for the time being........

He still could have rejected Robert as his king. But he did not, did he?

9 hours ago, Orm said:

Stannis was never a usurper when he declared war on Joffrey and Renly. He gives Joffrey the benefit of the doubt that he truly believes he is Bob's son and condemns the real culprits Cersei and Jaime. Renly had no excuse........Stannis came before him, period

Of course he is a usurper. He is a usurper and a traitor to Robert by helping Cersei to put Joff on the throne and arrest and execute Ned by refusing to tell anyone about his suspicions regarding Cersei's children. If Robert had known he could have ruled on his own succession, condemning Cersei's children as bastards and acknowledging Stannis as his presumptive heir until he had legitimate children of his own (although he would have more likely legitimized Edric instead of having Stannis as his heir). Stannis himself ensured that this didn't happen ... and then all he has to justify his attempted usurpation is his story about Jaime and Cersei which he doesn't back with any proof whatsoever. If you have read the books then you know that not a single person joins Stannis because they believe his story about Jaime and Cersei - and even the people who believe it or later indicate they believe it (like Olenna or Kevan) do not turn against Joffrey/Tommen.

9 hours ago, Orm said:

Again more Durrandon than Targaryen.....

The Durrandon name doesn't even show up in the series proper. It is a huge stretch to assume that the Baratheons inherited 'Durrandon looks' when Orys Baratheon also had black hair and black eyes (which could have been Valyrian purple, just as the Baratheon blue could have been the Valyrian blue - not all Valyrian do have purple eyes).

14 minutes ago, Orm said:

This is tempting me to start a thread on why Baratheons are rebranded Durrandons......... Regardless of who Orys actually was( I do think he was legit half-targ and important to Aegon) it doesn't change the fact that his sons with Argella were the only grandsons of Argilac, making them the only heirs to Argilac's crown and name..........Either Orys was a good dude who had nothing against Argella personally and did her the courtesy to continue her line with a rebranded name or he was very shrewd and realised that assimilating with a 8000 year old bloodline is much better than just usurping it's place.... possibly a mix of both....... Having said that Roger, Boremund, Borris, Lyonel and Robert are all echoes of Argilac Durrandon....

Aegon I made his half-brother and best buddy lord of Storm's End. He also got Argella as his wife to sweeten things, but he was the lord and she was the trophy wife, not the other way around.

14 minutes ago, Orm said:

And the thick black hair, stormy blue eyes is the Durrandon pheno-type. Orys just happened to have the black hair trait in common with the Durrandons. And the persistence of this pheno-type might have something to do with the demi-god origins of Durrandons and by extension Baratheons.

That we just don't know. Not about the eyes and not about the hair. We only know Argilac was black-haired, not that all his ancestors were, too. We don't have a description of any of them unless I'm mistaken.

The idea that the Baratheons - especially after Steffon - see themselves more as Durrandons when they can also see them as 'secret Targaryens' and thus with a claim to the Iron Throne isn't really that convincing. They would reduce their own importance and prestige that way. Instead, they would proud of both their ancestral bloodlines - the blood of the dragon Orys and Lord Aerion gave them as well as the blood of the Storm Kings their inherited from Argella.

[Frey family reunion]

15 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Whether anyone would have changed their family name is another question entirely. Considering the fact that the Blackfyres never called themselves Targaryen although they were Targaryens

You can make an argument that the Blackfyres were more “Targaryen” than the Targaryens that were begat by Viserys the dragonless and the banker’s daughter.

Which begs the question, how much does being legally entitled to the name really mean anymore?  It doesn’t mean you get dragons, and once the royal family was dispossessed it doesn’t mean you have a legal hereditary right to the Iron Throne.

[Orm]

11 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

LOL, Robert didn't kill Rhaegar 'rightfully so

I don't know....... If a married guy kidnaps my wife to be, while my mum and dad lost their life searching for a bride of the said guy and the said guy's dad wants my head on a spike for no apparent reason then in my books I have the right to bury that guy........lol

 

15 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Could have gone the other way.

 LOL...Rhaegar was never beating Robert.....they were clashing in horseback and Rhaegar still got smashed...... On foot Rhaegar's chances drop even more drastically.......Bob wasn't even a 100% at the Trident.

Besides that Robert Baratheon is the  Daemon Blackfyre of his era......

21 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

It is a huge stretch to assume that the Baratheons inherited 'Durrandon looks' when Orys Baratheon also had black hair and black eyes

Argella Durrandon Baratheon had thick black hair and Blue eyes (her only image depicted her as such)......... If Orys had bluish eyes as you assume then it still doesn't matter because we know that Valyrian traits are recessive with countless examples. While the only Durrandons we encounter are explicitly mentioned to have the black hair if not  blue eyes...... But for the third time I will say that Rogar, Boremund, Borris, Lyonel and Robert all of them echo Argilac.......only Stannis echoes Maekar his great-great-grandfather.....

 

27 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Aegon I made his half-brother and best buddy lord of Storm's End. He also got Argella as his wife to sweeten things, but he was the lord and she was the trophy wife, not the other way around.

Aegon's stamp doesn't do jack for Orys's legitimacy in the Storm-lands..... The primary reason that house Baratheon is never contested for their position in the Storm-lands unlike the Tyrells is because they are in fact renamed Durrandons and martially gifted...... You seem to think Orys keeping the Durrandon honours and sigil was done as a insult but I think it was smart and big of Orys to do so....... And in a society which bases women's value and worth on their "virtue" I don't think Argella would have been qualified as a trophy wife after what was done to her..... Orys either married her out of good will or sheer shrewdness or if you wanna write fanfics then "love"..........

 

47 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

The idea that the Baratheons - especially after Steffon - see themselves more as Durrandons when they can also see them as 'secret Targaryens' and thus with a claim to the Iron Throne isn't really that convincing. They would reduce their own importance and prestige that way. Instead, they would proud of both their ancestral bloodlines - the blood of the dragon Orys and Lord Aerion gave them as well as the blood of the Storm Kings their inherited from Argella.

Hmm.... The Baratheon bros never gave a flying fuck about their family pedegree unless they had to talk about it...... We do know that Lyonel declared himself Storm king on account of his Durrandon ancestry..... You seem to think that the Baratheons were jumping at the chance of usurping the Targs from the irone-throne. We don't have a single shred of evidence to suggest this. Even Rogar did not consider taking the throne to do away with Jahearys.......And if that was the case then the best time for them would about the time when Aerys and Steffon were the only grandsons of king Aegon........ If Ormund and Rhaelle somehow managed to take Aerys out of the picture, then their son would be the undisputed/legal heir after Jahearys............But we know nothing about Rhaelle, what ambitions she and her husband had..... And Ormund died fighting for the Targs against Blackfyres.... Another thing which bothers me quite a bit is why was Steffon an only child.......

 

And since we never encounter a Baratheon who screams "Blood of the dragon" like a targ........ I don't think they give a flying fuck about having dragon blood......

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

The Durrandon name doesn't even show up in the series proper. I

Olenna Tyrell does mention Argella Durrandon indirectly........

[Orm]

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

No, it is also brought up by Eddard Stark, one of the leaders of the Rebellion.

Ned Stark also says that Stannis is the undisputed heir...

[Orm]

2 hours ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

I don't recall ever seeing a similar quote but the mind wanders and forgets things. If you find it, please post it. Puts things in a different light.

"These pardoned lords will do well to reflect on that. Good men and true will fight for Joffrey, wrongly believing him the true king. A northman might even say the same for Robb Stark. But these lords who flocked to my brother's banner knew him for a usurper. They turned their backs on their rightful king for no better reason than dreams of power and glory, and I have marked them for what they are. Pardoned them, yes. Forgiven. But not forgotten"- Stannis Baratheon

 

You can see that Stannis is giving the benefit of the doubt to them who are fighting for Joffrey and Robb believing them them to be legit...... But Renly and his followers had no excuse while Stannis lived....

[Universal Sword Donor]

3 hours ago, Orm said:

"These pardoned lords will do well to reflect on that. Good men and true will fight for Joffrey, wrongly believing him the true king. A northman might even say the same for Robb Stark. But these lords who flocked to my brother's banner knew him for a usurper. They turned their backs on their rightful king for no better reason than dreams of power and glory, and I have marked them for what they are. Pardoned them, yes. Forgiven. But not forgotten"- Stannis Baratheon

You can see that Stannis is giving the benefit of the doubt to them who are fighting for Joffrey and Robb believing them them to be legit...... But Renly and his followers had no excuse while Stannis lived....

Ah ok. 

[Ran]

Stannis's reading of the situation is not necessarily reality. The idea that even his own followers "knew" he was Robert's heir is absurd -- they took it on faith, or they followed him out of fear of dissent, or they followed him for the hope of advancement, but they didn't know a thing -- and so similarly the idea that Renly was any more a "known" usurper seems absurd as well; that is, they knew he was challenging Joffrey, whom was rightful heir (as they saw it), but then most people who followed Stannis probably also thought that Stannis was challenging the rightful heir. 

There's some very self-serving things going on in that quote from Stannis, as he shapes reality to his priors.

[Frey family reunion]

5 minutes ago, Ran said:

Stannis's reading of the situation is not necessarily reality. The idea that even his own followers "knew" he was Robert's heir is absurd -- they took it on faith, or they followed him out of fear of dissent, or they followed him for the hope of advancement, but they didn't know a thing -- and so similarly the idea that Renly was any more a "known" usurper seems absurd as well; that is, they knew he was challenging Joffrey, whom was rightful heir (as they saw it), but then most people who followed Stannis probably also thought that Stannis was challenging the rightful heir. 

There's some very self-serving things going on in that quote from Stannis, as he shapes reality to his priors.

I assumed that Stannis' position was purely that he was the older brother to Renly.  That under no circumstance should anyone consider Renly a legitimate heir to anything while Stannis lived.

[nyser1]

-

[Peach King]

37 minutes ago, nyser1 said:

I love house Baratheon and enjoy that there is a thread talking about Renly. Usually these get shot down, and people do not like to entertain Renly what ifs or fanfiction.

 

I personally do not agree with Renly's preferences in bed mates but that has 0 impact on my opinion of him. If he became King, it would have been a much shorter story. It also would have likely led to more stability and fewer deaths due to wars amongst humans of Westeros.

 

Stannis by law was the heir yes. However, when his younger brother had 100,000 men, 40,000+ supported a secessionist, another 50,000+ supported the person who held KL, and another 20,000 (Ironborn) were his opponents versus himself + 4,000-5,000 men - he should have backed his brother. 

Are you just casually admitting that you're homophobic? Lmao.

[Lord Varys]

4 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

I assumed that Stannis' position was purely that he was the older brother to Renly.  That under no circumstance should anyone consider Renly a legitimate heir to anything while Stannis lived.

Renly can be seen as going one potential claimant further in his usurpation (or two, if one wants to count Shireen), but that really isn't that much of a deal compared with the fact that Stannis was doing more or less the same thing with his rebellion. He was not only pushing his claim against that of Joffrey but also against Tommen's and Myrcella's.

And that with essentially no evidence whatsoever for his story. No evidence for an affair between Jaime and Cersei, no evidence that if there had been affair Jaime was the father of all the children, no evidence that the children weren't Robert's, and no evidence who the father was if it wasn't Robert.

That is all conjecture on his part, and so far the author didn't even tell us how Stannis reached that conclusion. There is somewhat of a hint there with the cat incident Stannis witnessed, but all that revealed is that Joff was a pretty weird child. It revealed nothing about the parentage of the boy - and even if it did somehow, the boy had two younger siblings.

George still has the opportunity to tell us how Stannis developed the idea that Robert's children weren't his - the letters he sent to the people of Westeros didn't reveal any of that. They just had him claim this thing without offering any evidence. He didn't even describe Robert's bastards therein and compared their looks to Cersei's children - but even if he did: That's not evidence, that's just unusual.

10 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

You can make an argument that the Blackfyres were more “Targaryen” than the Targaryens that were begat by Viserys the dragonless and the banker’s daughter.

That is no an argument anyone in the books ever made. I mean, I asked George once whether Daemon's descent from Daena played a role in him pushing his claim - and he didn't think this was the case. Could be he is going to use that idea in FaB II to a point, especially if he were to play up a potential conflict surrounding the succession of Baelor, but the idea that Viserys II's wife figured in any way into the Blackfyre issue is very unlikely - especially in light of the fact that Aegon III's wife clearly was less noble than Larra Rogare who was the scion of ancient Valyrian house from Lys, while Daenaera's father was a lesser Velaryon and her mother an obscure Harte.

The problem with the Blackfyre name is that it is a stupid name for a house (who the hell names himself after his own sword?) and that the Targaryen name is so much more prestigious compared to the name of the sword of House Targaryen. As a personal byname for a bastard it makes sense, but not as a name for a house which tries to replace or supplant 'the Targaryens'.

And I brought that up because of this idea that the Velaryons should have called themselves Targaryen if they had ever ruled - if the Blackfyres didn't want to do that, and nobody ever called them 'Targaryen' as we see firsthand in TMK, I really don't think such a name change would make sense. And thus also not Robert's possible name change if he had been more positively inclined towards his cousins and/or inherited the throne peacefully.

10 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

Which begs the question, how much does being legally entitled to the name really mean anymore?  It doesn’t mean you get dragons, and once the royal family was dispossessed it doesn’t mean you have a legal hereditary right to the Iron Throne.

For the Blackfyres is would make simply because the Targaryen name had more prestige and royalty than 'Blackfyre' - especially since they were trying to depose another branch of the Targaryen family tree.

9 hours ago, Orm said:

LOL...Rhaegar was never beating Robert.....they were clashing in horseback and Rhaegar still got smashed...... On foot Rhaegar's chances drop even more drastically.......Bob wasn't even a 100% at the Trident.

There is actually no indication that Rhaegar and Robert ever fought on foot. Could be or not.

9 hours ago, Orm said:

Besides that Robert Baratheon is the  Daemon Blackfyre of his era......

The Daemon Blackfyre of his era was killed in battle, wasn't he? Robert could have been killed in battle, too, either by Rhaegar or some other person(s).

9 hours ago, Orm said:

Argella Durrandon Baratheon had thick black hair and Blue eyes (her only image depicted her as such)......... If Orys had bluish eyes as you assume then it still doesn't matter because we know that Valyrian traits are recessive with countless examples. While the only Durrandons we encounter are explicitly mentioned to have the black hair if not  blue eyes...... But for the third time I will say that Rogar, Boremund, Borris, Lyonel and Robert all of them echo Argilac.......only Stannis echoes Maekar his great-great-grandfather.....

We have no description of Argella Durrandon from George. Fans can imagine her as they like, of course. Besides, even if Argella as Argilac's daughter would have had black hair we couldn't say this was the case for all their ancestors. Children resemble their fathers to closer degree than their distant ancestors.

We know too little about Argilac as a character, but I daresay the later Baratheons definitely very much resemble their founder, Orys Baratheon, in character and temperament.

9 hours ago, Orm said:

Aegon's stamp doesn't do jack for Orys's legitimacy in the Storm-lands..... The primary reason that house Baratheon is never contested for their position in the Storm-lands unlike the Tyrells is because they are in fact renamed Durrandons and martially gifted...... You seem to think Orys keeping the Durrandon honours and sigil was done as a insult but I think it was smart and big of Orys to do so....... And in a society which bases women's value and worth on their "virtue" I don't think Argella would have been qualified as a trophy wife after what was done to her..... Orys either married her out of good will or sheer shrewdness or if you wanna write fanfics then "love"..........

Well, considering Argella's own Stormlanders chained her, gagged her, and delivered her to Orys naked I don't think the Durrandon name had all that much standing in the Stormlands after the Last Storm...

I don't contest that Argella's hand helped established a rumored bastard like Orys as Lord of Storm's End, but the idea that the Baratheons needed that is not exactly established in the books - nor do we have confirmation that nobody ever rebelled against the Baratheons during their reign as lords. We don't know their entire history so far.

9 hours ago, Orm said:

Hmm.... The Baratheon bros never gave a flying fuck about their family pedegree unless they had to talk about it...... We do know that Lyonel declared himself Storm king on account of his Durrandon ancestry..... You seem to think that the Baratheons were jumping at the chance of usurping the Targs from the irone-throne. We don't have a single shred of evidence to suggest this. Even Rogar did not consider taking the throne to do away with Jahearys.......And if that was the case then the best time for them would about the time when Aerys and Steffon were the only grandsons of king Aegon........ If Ormund and Rhaelle somehow managed to take Aerys out of the picture, then their son would be the undisputed/legal heir after Jahearys............But we know nothing about Rhaelle, what ambitions she and her husband had..... And Ormund died fighting for the Targs against Blackfyres.... Another thing which bothers me quite a bit is why was Steffon an only child.......

I do assume that the only things that kept Rogar Baratheon - and perhaps later Baratheons, too - in check were the dragons. It was the dragons which prevented Lord Rogar from deciding to usurp the throne himself and instead intend to use Aerea Targaryen and her mother Queen Rhaena, a dragonrider, as puppets. They were ambitious and quarrelsome throughout their history, and more dangerous after the dragons were gone (as can be seen with the Laughing Storm in THK and later with him declaring himself Storm King - which he likely did because he had no intention/knew he didn't have strength nor claim to push Aegon V aside, but we don't know enough about this entire episode yet).

9 hours ago, Orm said:

And since we never encounter a Baratheon who screams "Blood of the dragon" like a targ........ I don't think they give a flying fuck about having dragon blood......

There is a reason why we don't see that - because Robert hated 'the Targaryens', and because up until AFfC we didn't even know how much Targaryen blood the Baratheons have. But back in FaB we hear Archmaester Gyldayn reference the blood of the dragon Lord Rogar had when he laying out his political importance and power, just as we realize in AFfC/ADwD that Melisandre believes Stannis is the prophesied savior/Azor Ahai Reborn because of his Targaryen blood. They don't have to talk about that all day long for it being known and important.

10 hours ago, Orm said:

Ned Stark also says that Stannis is the undisputed heir...

Ned says that after he has heard it from Cersei's own lips that her children were fathered by Jaime, not Robert. Do you want to tell us that Stannis also heard that from Cersei's own lips? I don't think so.

[Orm]

44 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

There is actually no indication that Rhaegar and Robert ever fought on foot. Could be or not.

They didn't....... If they had Rhaegar would have been massacred.........

 

52 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

The Daemon Blackfyre of his era was killed in battle, wasn't he? Robert could have been killed in battle, too, either by Rhaegar or some other person(s).

If you cared enough to notice.......... You would see that Robert's victory at the Trident parallels Daemon's defeat at the red grass field......

Daemon tried to save the knight he was fighting before winning the battle and got killed for it. Robert saved Barristan after winning the battle/war.......

This is fantasy....... Daemon and Bob were Undefeatable on the battlefield.......

58 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Well, considering Argella's own Stormlanders chained her, gagged her, and delivered her to Orys naked I don't think the Durrandon name had all that much standing in the Stormlands after the Last Storm...

If it wasn't clear that you have a hate boner against  house Durrandon/Baratheon ........ It is all too clear now.....

Following your assessment, the Stark name also should have no Standing after Robb Stark was betrayed and killed by his own Bannermen at the red wedding..... But that is not the case, is it????

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

I don't contest that Argella's hand helped established a rumored bastard like Orys as Lord of Storm's End, but the idea that the Baratheons needed that is not exactly established in the books - nor do we have confirmation that nobody ever rebelled against the Baratheons during their reign as lords. We don't know their entire history so far.

Well since we are explicitly told that the Tyrells and Tullys often get undermined my their Bannermen..... And house Baratheon more often than not, is lumped in with the Starks, Lannisters and Martells...... I think and assume that they were never challenged for their legitimacy......via being renamed Durrandons.....

 

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

There is a reason why we don't see that - because Robert hated 'the Targaryens', and because up until AFfC we didn't even know how much Targaryen blood the Baratheons have.

 Bob's hatred and fury after 15 years is a madness I agree.....this could be the targ exclusive madness........lol another case of targ exclusive madness exclusively fucking Targs ......

 

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

do assume that the only things that kept Rogar Baratheon - and perhaps later Baratheons, too - in check were the dragons. It was the dragons which prevented Lord Rogar from deciding to usurp the throne himself and instead intend to use Aerea Targaryen and her mother Queen Rhaena, a dragonrider, as puppe

I don't know...... Lord Rogar always came off as a nod to the Great Jon Umber......... You have no basis of accusing him of anything after he surrendered to Jahearys and remained loyal and reliable...... I myself would object to Jahearys marrying his Sister.......

 

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

They were ambitious and quarrelsome throughout their history, and more dangerous after the dragons were gone

What history? You just said we don't have their history yet......... Oh please there isn't a single house which isn't ambitious or quarrelsome even the Starks to a degree.....

 

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

(as can be seen with the Laughing Storm in THK and later with him declaring himself Storm King - which he likely did because he had no intention/knew he didn't have strength nor claim to push Aegon V aside, but we don't know enough about this entire episode yet).

Yea about that.......Lyonel had every right to shove Aegon's BS up his ass.......... If he can't hold up his end of the bargain why should he keep his?..... Broken betrothals are not taken lightly in westeros......

Even after Lyonel lost.......Aegon knew he had to give away a consolation prize or his house was done for..........

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

But back in FaB we hear Archmaester Gyldayn reference the blood of the dragon Lord Rogar had when he laying out his political importance and power, just as we realize in AFfC/ADwD that Melisandre believes Stannis is the prophesied savior/Azor Ahai Reborn because of his Targaryen blood. They don't have to talk about that all day long for it being known and important.

Hmm..... Baratheons came off as the kind who don't go screaming their self-importance but rather show it through physical deeds..... One of the reasons I like them

 

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

We know too little about Argilac as a character, but I daresay the later Baratheons definitely very much resemble their founder, Orys Baratheon, in character and temperament.

What little we got from Argilac is already echoing in his ancestors......... Any evidence that Baratheons are like Orys?

Orys came of as Jon Snow+Tywin Lannister ............ Having said that Baratheons embody ' Ours is the Fury' which if you are purposely forgetting are the words of house Durrandon.......

[Orm]

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

George still has the opportunity to tell us how Stannis developed the idea that Robert's children weren't his - the letters he sent to the people of Westeros didn't reveal any of that. They just had him claim this thing without offering any evidence. He didn't even describe Robert's bastards therein and compared their looks to Cersei's children - but even if he did: That's not evidence, that's just unusual.

When I was reading the books I always had the feeling that the incest was a open secret to everybody..... And if it is absolutely necessary to provide hardcore evidence then I wonder how Dany will be looked upon when she does anything to Aegon.......