Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
Lord of Raventree Hall

Why is Renly seemingly disliked in the community?

Recommended Posts

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

He didn't even describe Robert's bastards therein and compared their looks to Cersei's children - but even if he did: That's not evidence, that's just unusual.

That's evidence enough when 16 bastard kids of the king bear striking resemblance to him and his colouring (both eyes and hair) but none of his trueborn kid has a single thing in common with the king either physical or any other characteristics.......

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Orm said:

That's evidence enough when 16 bastard kids of the king bear striking resemblance to him and his colouring (both eyes and hair) but none of his trueborn kid has a single thing in common with the king either physical or any other characteristics.......

I doubt Stannis is aware of all sixteen of Robert's bastards.  He likely knows about Edric, Gendry, and Bara and maybe expects there are more but doesn't know where they are.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It seems that Stannis has personally banned this forum in his kingdom of Westeros and that's why many of you guys are salty towards him......some of you are giving him traits which are not even in his character:rofl:( looking at you lord Varys).......

Stannis is the embodiment of Justice in westeros. I also like Renly. He was a super ace in the people skills department. But he was foolish when he thought he could supplant Stannis and get away with it....... With that I rest my case.......

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I believe Renly is a very well WRITTEN character. There is much complexity to him, between his political decisions, popularity in Westeros, looks, sexuality, flaws and virtues. There are times he behaves in a very egotistical manner, and on the other occasions he's very charismatic and "fun to be around". And there are other characters opinions on the man, but frankly we lack source material to learn in-depth about him, as we do with Eddard, Robb or Stannis. There is much ambiguity in Renly, that's why we're discussing him years after Melisandre zapped him in ACOK.

So, a well written character, unfortunately we didn't get to see him as much as I'd like to. That must be part of his appeal, tho.

When it comes to actual Dislike in the community, I think several factors hurt him in the long run:

  • Poor TV show portrayal. Renly's got very little screen time in HBO GOT and he's far from cunning/wiseass playboy of King's Landing, as we see him portrayed in the books. They failed to address complexities mentioned in this thread and simply went for an "average weakling" who happens to know a man or two.
  • His role has ended - for good. Stannis campaign Stormlands/Crownlands and the titular Clash of Kings are over. Margaery and his backers (in the books) have their own set of problems. He had no offspring. The tides of history moved on and there's hardly anyone mourning him now, except those two who loved him dearly.
  • There is no Fandom "faction" around Renly. Holy cows (Dany, Jon, Tyrion, Arya) always had plenty of supporters. House Stark, Targaryen, Lannister or even Martell are popular as a whole. All Baratheon sympathizers (I'm one of them) are more interested in Stannis arc or even Robert's Rebellion. Why is that? Lack of POV chapters!!!

If anyone in the Reach was a POV during AGOT & ACOK, it would be different perhaps.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, Orm said:

That's evidence enough when 16 bastard kids of the king bear striking resemblance to him and his colouring (both eyes and hair) but none of his trueborn kid has a single thing in common with the king either physical or any other characteristics.......

That is only evidence if Robert acknowledged them, otherwise they are just nameless peasants who have the Baratheon look.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, Orm said:

That's evidence enough when 16 bastard kids of the king bear striking resemblance to him and his colouring (both eyes and hair) but none of his trueborn kid has a single thing in common with the king either physical or any other characteristics.......

Yes, it’s evidence enough given this is the way the author chose to have characters discover the truth. Westeros has no DNA testing.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Stannis or Varys can say "There are 16 bastard children of Robert Baratheon who all have his coloring", but if someone says, "Okay, produce them and their mothers and have them provide their testimony that they are related to Robert", Varys isn't likely to be able to do it in all cases, and Stannis isn't able to do it in nearly any case.

Even Stannis says Edric is only proof "of a sort". 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, kissdbyfire said:

Yes, it’s evidence enough given this is the way the author chose to have characters discover the truth. Westeros has no DNA testing.

It isn't evidence enough, 2-3 of Robert's bastards are one of many clues to help Ned figure out why he thinks the Lannisters murdered Jon Arryn. The children as such are not enough 'evidence' to help Ned or Jon or anyone figure out what's going on.

In fact, Stannis believes that Cersei's children aren't Robert's when he first approaches Jon, and only afterwards do they visit Gendry and Barra, apparently in an attempt to build a better case to convince Robert when they approach him.

But in and of itself those children prove nothing.

And to be sure, we don't know whether all of Robert's bastards actually have the Baratheon look - all we know is that Bella, Mya, Gendry, Edric, and Barra do have those looks. But those are not all of Robert's bastards as per the prophecy.

As @Ran has said - the important bastards that could be used are only Edric Storm and Mya Stone - bastards Robert actually acknowledged as his children. Gendry and Barra and Bella and any of the others he did not acknowledge, and as such they are nonentities. But Mya and Edric are just two, and there is just no way to prove that Robert's children by Cersei must resemble Robert. After all, even if one would read the book and say that's a general rule, then Cersei could easily enough point out that she is a very pure-blooded Lannister, having had two Lannisters of Casterly Rock as her parents, which certainly could mean - within the framework and nonexisting real world genetics of this story - that her children have a higher chance to look like her than their father.

The crucial point here people seem to overlook is that Robert Baratheon acknowledged Cersei's children as his own. He believes they are, no matter how they look. And since nobody told him or convinced him they might not, there is simply no way to prove it. Robert is the only person aside from Cersei who could reveal the truth, remembering that he might not be the father after all, or who could sit in judgment over the entire issue.

If Stannis or Renly or anybody else won the war and then sat in judgment over Cersei's children then this wouldn't be a proper trial, it would be a sham where the victory in war determined the outcome of the 'investigation/trial'.

Thanks to Stannis the Moron himself the truth of this matter is down to strength of arms/victory on the battlefield, not proper investigation - and that's also why he lost the war and the throne because he didn't have the strength to win it. And that's his own fault because Stannis, unlike any other character, had months to spread this tale, both while Robert was still alive and while he was already dead. But he chose to keep it to himself.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
57 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

But Mya and Edric are just two, and there is just no way to prove that Robert's children by Cersei must resemble Robert. After all, even if one would read the book and say that's a general rule, then Cersei could easily enough point out that she is a very pure-blooded Lannister, having had two Lannisters of Casterly Rock as her parents, which certainly could mean - within the framework and nonexisting real world genetics of this story - that her children have a higher chance to look like her than their father.

Imho this is the crucial point, because I think we can assume that if one would look up the Lannisters of Casterly Rock in a genealogy, they all would have somehow green eyes and blond hair (as we see in the books, they all have somehow blond hair and somehow greenish eyes, even if they aren't Lannisters of Casterly Rock itself).

And even the examples in the book that Jon and Ned have read are not conclusive, as one of them is clearly not a Lannister of Casterly Rock (because married to a third(!) son), and the second most likely isn't either, as if the Baratheon-bride would have married into the line of Casterly Rock, they all would be black haired now, if the colouring would really be that dominate - or it really isn't and the following generations turned out blond and green-eyed again. In that case it doesn't say anything.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

After all, even if one would read the book and say that's a general rule, then Cersei could easily enough point out that she is a very pure-blooded Lannister, having had two Lannisters of Casterly Rock as her parents, which certainly could mean - within the framework and nonexisting real world genetics of this story - that her children have a higher chance to look like her than their father

Weren't the Lannisters the Baratheons married "pureblood' Lannisters?? Since genetics are not a thing and no one but the Targs use the pureblood mentality, no one would fall for that.

 

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Gendry and Barra and Bella and any of the others he did not acknowledge, and as such they are nonentities.

Gendry can be easily traced to Robert, both because of his age and the fact that he is a carbon copy, the rest wouldn't.

 

 

26 minutes ago, Morte said:

And even the examples in the book that Jon and Ned have read are not conclusive, as one of them is clearly not a Lannister of Casterly Rock (because married to a third(!) son), and the second most likely isn't either, as if the Baratheon-bride would have married into the line of Casterly Rock, they all would be black haired now, if the colouring would really be that dominate - or it really isn't and the following generations turned out blond and green-eyed again. In that case it doesn't say anything

Third sons are still Lannisters of the Rock, Kevan and Tyrek are Lannisters of the Rock regardless of whether they are of the ruling branch of or not. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 minutes ago, frenin said:

Gendry can be easily traced to Robert, both because of his age and the fact that he is a carbon copy, the rest wouldn't. 

Not really, he's just a random blacksmiths apprentice as far as anyone else would ever be concerned. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 minutes ago, Tikhunt said:

Not really, he's just a random blacksmiths apprentice as far as anyone else would ever be concerned.

Brienne mistakes him for Renly........

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
49 minutes ago, Tikhunt said:

Not really, he's just a random blacksmiths apprentice as far as anyone else would ever be concerned. 

A random blacksmith apprentice that is a clone of him.

While most of Robert's bastards can't be traced to him, due the distances and the fact that well a bastard of the marches is hardly traceable, a clone that is sitting in King's Landing can be identified as the King's bastard rather easily.

 

Edited by frenin

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Gendry can be traced by people who knew the king or Renly. Ned saw it instantly with the context of Jon and Stannis' investigation. Tobho Mott almost certainly knew. Brienne started questioning him about his parents immediately after identifying him as a Baratheon who looked more like Robert than Renly.

Eddard: You know who the boy is. That is not a question.
Tobho: The boy is my apprentice. Who he was before he came to me, that's none of my concern.

The Baratheon look was stamped on his face, in his jaw, his eyes, that black hair. - Ned

“He has Renly’s eyes and Renly’s hair, but not his build. Lord Renly was more lithe than brawny . . . not like his brother Robert, whose strength was fabled.” [....]

“You were born in King’s Landing.” The way he spoke made her certain of it.
“Me and many more.” He plunged the sword into a tub of rainwater to quench it. The hot steel hissed angrily.
“How old are you?” Brienne asked. “Is your mother still alive? And your father, who was he? [...] You're a bastard. [...] you must have seen King Robert”

I have to imagine that Thoros knows / suspects who Gendry is too. Beric probably would too if his memory weren't torched. It might not pass muster as a legal identification but nobles / craftsmen noticing it would count for something, especially in a world where dominant genes are expressed so powerfully. Prop him up next to Edric Storm and it would be a slam dunk.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
27 minutes ago, frenin said:

A random blacksmith apprentice that is a clone of him.

 

As is Renly. If these Baratheon genes are so strong then theoretically there are hundreds, maybe thousands of Robert clones running around Westeros. With three centuries of Baratheon rule, there are going to be many people, both common and noble, with this look.

Gendry or the other bastards could be anyone's child rather than Robert's.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
8 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

As is Renly. If these Baratheon genes are so strong then theoretically there are hundreds, maybe thousands of Robert clones running around Westeros. With three centuries of Baratheon rule, there are going to be many people, both common and noble, with this look.

Gendry or the other bastards could be anyone's child rather than Robert's.

Renly was what 10 when Gendry was fathered?? 

The argument was not that the Baratheons have super genes, otherwise the Stormlands at whole would look like Robert and Renly, but that the Baratheon>Lannisters in the gen department and that Robert's genes were strong. They can hardly tell how the Baratheons genes are, Robert is another case entirely.  The fact that Robert's seed in particular was so strong but to his trueborn children was what made most suspect.

 

Edited by frenin

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

As is Renly. If these Baratheon genes are so strong then theoretically there are hundreds, maybe thousands of Robert clones running around Westeros. With three centuries of Baratheon rule, there are going to be many people, both common and noble, with this look.

Gendry or the other bastards could be anyone's child rather than Robert's.

Oh..... Is that so? Could you please explain theoretically.... how do giant flying fire breathing lizards exist? How a culture thrives on incest(Valyrians)? How the hell does a dynasty last for over 8000 years? Why do seasons last for years?

 

If you can then I will take your argument seriously.......

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, frenin said:

Weren't the Lannisters the Baratheons married "pureblood' Lannisters?? Since genetics are not a thing and no one but the Targs use the pureblood mentality, no one would fall for that.

One assumes not to Lannisters whose parents were first cousins, like is the case with Joanna and Tywin.

And not all Lannisters have the golden hair and the green eyes. Some just have common blond or yellow hair. Kevan is one of those, and Lancel isn't as fine a specimen as Jaime, either. Not to mention Tyrion.

1 hour ago, frenin said:

Gendry can be easily traced to Robert, both because of his age and the fact that he is a carbon copy, the rest wouldn't.

LOL, only if people wanted to do/believe that he is Robert's child. He could just as well be Stannis' bastard, or better still: the descendant of some Baratheon by-blow from years past, i.e. a grandson or great-grandson of Steffon or Ormund or Lyonel Baratheon.

15 minutes ago, frenin said:

Renly was what 10 when Gendry was fathered?? 

The argument was not that the Baratheons have super genes, otherwise the Stormlands at whole would look like Robert and Renly, but that the Baratheon>Lannisters in the gene department and that Robert's genes were strong. They can hardly tell how the Baratheons genes are, Robert is another case entirely. 

That isn't the argument at all. The 'argument' is that the Baratheon black always triumphs over fair hair, no matter who the fair-haired mother is, Lannisters included, of course. And that is actually wrong, since Jocelyn Baratheon's grandchildren by Lord Corlys are prototypical Valyrians whose hair color doesn't match the hair of their mother or grandmother.

Robert isn't a special case there - else the book would have hinted at nothing.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
20 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

LOL, only if people wanted to do/believe that he is Robert's child. He could just as well be Stannis' bastard, or better still: the descendant of some Baratheon by-blow from years past, i.e. a grandson or great-grandson of Steffon or Ormund or Lyonel Baratheon.

Sure..... And Jon could also just be, Rickard's, Brandon's ,Ned's or even Benjen's or any Stark by-blow............ Why does it not suprise me that "Obviously all Baratheons can't keep it in their pants" mentality is gonna come from you? LMAO......

Edited by Orm
Punctuation

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
28 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

That isn't the argument at all. The 'argument' is that the Baratheon black always triumphs over fair hair, no matter who the fair-haired mother is, Lannisters included, of course. And that is actually wrong, since Jocelyn Baratheon's grandchildren by Lord Corlys are prototypical Valyrians whose hair color doesn't match the hair of their mother or grandmother.

Robert isn't a special case there - else the book would have hinted at nothing.

Can we all just chalk it off as fantasy genetics which the author used as a plot device......... It is getting redundant at this point.........

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...