Why is Renly seemingly disliked in the community?

[frenin]

1 hour ago, Mithras said:

Here is the crux of the matter in the whole Renly and the twincest debate: There is no shred of evidence in the books that Renly knew about it. But some vocal Stannis fans are pushing an agenda to demonize Renly. Because if Renly knew about it yet slept on it, that could be used by Stannis fans as justification for the villainous acts of Stannis, such as besieging Storm’s End and murdering Renly.

From GRRM’s point of view, there are many reasons why it is imperative that Renly did not know about the twincest:

1. Renly would simply tell Robert. Plotwise or characterwise, this had to happen yet if he told Robert, the story would be over.
2. Renly would have used this knowledge after his coronation while campaigning with the Tyrells. But still GRRM had to kill Renly and build the Lannister/Tyrell alliance. Then, how could Tyrells come from officially blaming the Lannisters for twincest to marrying their daughter to one of those “abominations”? That would never work in a decent piece of writing.

Feel free to add more reasons why Renly should not know or else the story wouldn’t work.

Overall all comes down to Renly would tell, Renly has absolutely no reason whatsoever to keep silent and every reason to tell.

 

1. Robert is a living barrier between Renly and the Lannisters, a dead Robert guarantees conflict between them.

 

2. Renly doesn't need a convuluted plan to marry Robert and Margaery.

In fact the idea that  marriage plan goes against the notion of Renly's awareness. 

If Renly doesn't know about the incest, he necessarily needs that Robert falls for Margaery, he needs Robert to willingly set aside Cersei. That's why whether Margaery resembled Lyanna or not was very relevant.

If Renly knows, Robert falling for Margaery is a plus but at all important to the plan, Renly would simply tell Robert, wait until Cersei is dead and then present Margaery to him. He would need to marry her for matters of state and it's an absolutely win win for Renly and the Tyrells. Renly makes sure of destroying the Lannisters, so he is happy and the Tyrells get the crown without any buts, so they are happy. Renly is a rather straight forward man.  He is not the type of guy to make it complicated when there is a far easier solution at hand.

He stood to gain little to nothing by sitting on the info and stood to lose everything. That's a weird motivation.

 

 

1 hour ago, Orm said:

1)he was only alive because of Stannis.

More because of Davos...

 

1 hour ago, Orm said:

2)He and everyone knows that Stannis doesn't lie...

Since when??

 

1 hour ago, Orm said:

) the younger brother bows before the elder in that society...

Which obliges Renly to support Robert's legal sons, It doesn't create a moral obligation for Renly to completely support while ignoring Joffrey and Tommen.

 

 

[Trigger Warning]

I see where this thread is heading, I hope we're in for another round of people saying Renly knew with no textual evidence and then citing him saying he should be king to Ned in the show. 

[Morte]

14 hours ago, frenin said:

14 hours ago, Morte said:

It also touches the Lannisters, as I said: Ned also finds a Baratheon-bride married into House Lannister - but we don't know of any dark-haired Lannisters, at all. If the Baratheon-black would indeed dominated all other hair colours, House Lannister would now also have black hair, but they don't.

The children were all black haired ones but they would not marry into the ruling branch however, so they would never get mixed.

In fact Ned makes that an evidence.

Ned makes it an evidence because he thinks he is looking for a reason why the Lannisters did murder Jon. Fun fact: They didn't. Ned would not have thought one second about the hair colour would he not be searching for clues for the murder.

And the black hair didn't persist, neither did it in the Lannisters, nor in the Targaryen, so it does, ultimately, yield to both gold and silver. So Jon's and Stannis' assumption is also flawed, in the end.

14 hours ago, frenin said:

14 hours ago, Morte said:

That we say is: The hair colour is just an clue, for us reader a very strong clue, because we know the truth - but in-world it is not that strong at all, especially if delivered by Stannis, weeks or months after Robert's death and with himself as king in mind.

I did not say that Stannis's words were a proof, especially because our good Mannis never bothered to offer any evidence at all, he just expected to be taken at face value because the man does never lie. The book and the bastards however do prove the imposibility of Robert being the father, that doesn't mean that people are not going to believe the truth that suits their interests anyway.

It really isn't a prove, just a clue. That's also why a lot of people who would be interested in it being true still doubt it or dismiss it right away.

8 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Do just I think that talking to @frenin is pointless, or am I not alone in this assessment?

I know I can be a pain in the ass sometimes, but I hope I'm not that obnoxious...

You both tend to, like all of us, talk around each other in circles.

And, for everyone, on every forum, in every discussion on the internet this is always and simultaneously true:

https://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/duty_calls.png

 

 

[frenin]

2 hours ago, Morte said:

Ned makes it an evidence because he thinks he is looking for a reason why the Lannisters did murder Jon. Fun fact: They didn't. Ned would not have thought one second about the hair colour would he not be searching for clues for the murder.

I don't really understand what's the correlation. Yes, Ned was looking for clues of Jon's murder and he found out the truth, how the truth he found is somehow less valid because of that??

 

2 hours ago, Morte said:

And the black hair didn't persist, neither did it in the Lannisters, nor in the Targaryen, so it does, ultimately, yield to both gold and silver. So Jon's and Stannis' assumption is also flawed, in the end.

We don't know what happened to those children, as far as we can tell, they didn't marry into the Lannisters. We know that the children came out black haired and nothing else, we don't what they did, if they had children on their own, become maesters etc. So i find odd that you say that it didn't persist when we can't simply tell.

And Jon's and Stannis's assumption wasn't that if a Baratheon and Lannister have children, those children's children will have black hair, and the Great grandsons and the great great grandsons etc. They were only focusing on the inmediate first generation, and there is nothing flawed about that conclusion. 

Nor were they talking about Targ-Baratheon marriages anyway.

 

2 hours ago, Morte said:

It really isn't a prove, just a clue. That's also why a lot of people who would be interested in it being true still doubt it or dismiss it right away.

It seems prove enough to the Westerosi anyway and it's indeed a prove for us.

 

2 hours ago, Morte said:

And, for everyone, on every forum, in every discussion on the internet this is always and simultaneously true:

https://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/duty_calls.png

[Lord Varys]

7 hours ago, Ran said:

If you find talking with someone pointless, be an adult and stop responding to them rather than airing you grievances. No one has a god-given right^* to the last word in a thread.

_{*: Except me}

This was a rhetorical question.

6 hours ago, Mithras said:

Renly would simply tell Robert. Plotwise or characterwise, this had to happen yet if he told Robert, the story would be over.

This is actually part of the reason why it makes sense to assume that nobody but Stannis and then Jon believed the twincest story or suspected it, since if this had been the case somebody would have talked, as Areo Hotah would put. Somebody always talks.

Varys may know more about the twincest, from way back when Cersei fucked Jaime into joining the KG and due to his near total surveillance of everybody, but aside from him nobody else should. He definitely would have learned from Stannis when the man was telling Jon unless they spoke in Maegor's or the godswood or somewhere safe outside the castle. Littlefinger may have noticed that the children look awfully like Cersei, but he wouldn't even have been at court when Tommen was born. Chances are not that bad that he only learned what was going when Lysa asked him for help to resolve her Jon Arryn problem.

And neither of these two had any (good) reason to tell Stannis of all people. Hence why it is a rather interesting question how Stannis developed this notion and who - if any - told him about this. Because if Stannis had been tipped off by somebody as Varys tries to tell Tyrion then why the hell doesn't Stannis ever point out that person when speaking about the twincest?

Whether Renly would simply tell Robert is a question we cannot answer. Stannis also didn't tell Robert, did he? And he could have concluded that such a direct attack at Cersei from him could also backfire.

6 hours ago, Mithras said:

Renly would have used this knowledge after his coronation while campaigning with the Tyrells. But still GRRM had to kill Renly and build the Lannister/Tyrell alliance. Then, how could Tyrells come from officially blaming the Lannisters for twincest to marrying their daughter to one of those “abominations”? That would never work in a decent piece of writing.

He could have still used it after he received Stannis' letter. He could have claimed he had known about this, too, or he could have said Stannis convinced him but he still didn't give a rat's ass about his claim. But he didn't.

The Tyrells could have just changed their view on the twincest issue, just as they changed their view on who should be king after Renly's death.

8 hours ago, Orm said:

Well research tells us that contrasting hair and eye colour looks stunning to the general populace (wish I had black-hair blue eyes......)

Well, the point here is just that if Robert wanted his children to be his then there are number of reason he and/or Cersei could have used to convince him that they were. One is the idea that Cersei is a special Lannister with strong/pure enough Lannister blood so her children look like her.

They all got Lannister names, too. Joff seems to have been named after Joffrey Lydden-Lannister, the first Andal king of the Rock, Myrcella is a clear Lannister name, as is Tommen. Cersei and Robert clearly were stressing the Lannister royalty in their children, also with allowing Joff to use both the stag and the lion as his personal sigil.

In a sense, the Baratheon-Lannister union is one of two royal lines, not so much one of a king marrying a vassal. The Lannisters are a former royal house and much like the Starks and the Arryns they never forgot that. In fact, they might be the house that is most conscious about their royal past as Queen Rhaena points out back in FaB when visiting the Rock.

Robert was aware of all that - and didn't stop or disapprove of it as far as we know.

5 hours ago, Ran said:

I don't know that anyone knows this. Stannis doesn't have a reputation for honor or honesty, he has a reputation for stubbornness and a particular view of justice.

I light of the fact that nobody likes Stannis, chances are very good that everybody would have thought the worst of him once he sent his letters. How easy it is to vilify him we see later with the songs the singers sing at Joff's wedding feast. There he is a literal Richard III.

5 hours ago, Ran said:

Not when they are independent lords. Renly was not Stannis's vassal, nor was Stannis Renly's. They were Robert's vassals, and in turn their duty would normally be to his son and heir. The issue for Renly was that said son and heir was controlled by people who wanted him dead, and the issue for Stannis was that there was no legitimate son who was heir.

And both pretend to a point in this matter - Stannis pretends he knows Robert had no legitimate children, and Renly pretends to a point that to defend himself (if that's what he does) he has to crown himself (or he pretends that he does it defend himself when in fact he just wants the throne).

5 hours ago, Ran said:

George advised, not directed. The TV show changed Renly substantially in part due to suiting the role to the actor, in part because David and Dan made the choice to present him a certain way. GRRM's say on things like this was limited. As he said, if they wanted aliens to invade at the end of a season, there wasn't anything he could do to stop them.

Well, in a very real sense those aliens did invade, no?

The show's Renly pretty much has nothing to do with George's Renly - he is a clichéd effeminate/not very manly homosexual not interested in chivalry and deeds at arms when in fact Renly is a pretty good knight and essentially his entire charisma and popularity is based on the fact that he is seen as a Robert 2.0. And in the ruling department Renly is even better than Robert - he would have not ended like a corrupt, fat, lazy drunkard. He would have attended his council sessions, would have tried to a point to be a diligent ruler, would have continued to keep the pillars of his rule happy, etc.

And that is why Renly is - as far as we can know - the best of the three Baratheon we know. Robert turned out to be a real failure, and Stannis is willing to kill pretty much anyone if it gains him the throne. How bad Stannis is we will see if he defeats the Boltons - then he will have to decide what to do with the surviving followers of the Boltons and Freys? Will he pardon some of them? Or are we going to see a mass sacrifice/executions after the clansmen have already bathed in Bolton blood during the battle(s)?

[Lord Varys]

4 hours ago, Morte said:

Ned makes it an evidence because he thinks he is looking for a reason why the Lannisters did murder Jon. Fun fact: They didn't. Ned would not have thought one second about the hair colour would he not be searching for clues for the murder.

And the black hair didn't persist, neither did it in the Lannisters, nor in the Targaryen, so it does, ultimately, yield to both gold and silver. So Jon's and Stannis' assumption is also flawed, in the end.

I'd have liked it if George had made the seed a little bit stronger and retconned Laenor or Laena into black-haired people, too. Although that would have just moved the problem down some generations. Alyn and Addam could then not have Valyrian features ... or it would be very unlikely that Laenor was their dad. All Velaryons descended from Alyn and Baela - and everybody descended from Rhaena-Garmund's daughters - would look like Baratheons, including Monford Velaryon and Aurane Waters, and so on.

The Baratheon girls really show the problem with the whole 'the seed is strong' idea - if it were true on a large scale, some sort of 'general rule', then after 300 years of Baratheon daughters marrying the bannermen of Storm's End and other houses most of the Stormlords and many other nobles would have the Baratheon coloring.

And indeed, if the Durrandon blood was the 'magical blood' there then most/all of the noble houses should be black-haired by now, just as pretty much all Stormlanders and many other commoners should since many would have some Durrandon bastard among their distant ancestors.

In fact, the MUSH has Benjicot Blackwood marry the last of the Four Storms. If that were true and if Betha turned out to be Ben's descendant, then all of Egg's children and subsequently all the Targaryens after them would have to look like Baratheons. The same thing would be true for the Starks if Melantha Blackwood was similarly a descendant of Bloody Ben and his Baratheon wife.

Obviously this didn't happen and the seed isn't all that strong after all.

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

On 7/12/2020 at 11:55 PM, Bloodraven’s Spider said:

He would not bend the knee. But these what if questions are completely different from the original topic at hand.

 

And he shouldn’t bend the knee the Targaryen line was overthrown with the help of his own house and self... Why would he...

Because he claims Renly should bend the knee to him. He either is okay with the concept of overthrowing the currnet ruling order, or he is not. He can't be both. You can't have your cake and eat it too. Every single one of Stannis-stans arguments on here have hinged on Renly being horrible for not respecting the line of succession. Stannis doesn't respect the line of succession either. That is called a hypocritical stance. 

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

On 7/12/2020 at 7:28 PM, Eltharion21 said:

No their dynasty was deposed because of crimes of her father and brother. Lords rebeled, won civil war and made feudal contract with new King Robert Baratheon, currently his is the legal dynasty.

That new King has bankrupted the Kingdom, been essentially deposed by his wife's family, and was almost a puppet King toward the end of his reign. Even if Joffrey was Robert's son, he is also a sociopath (which Renly knows) who probably gonna commit a lot of crimes against his people. Renly is rebelling. You know...like the same thing Robert did. Renly is not sure, at best, that Stannis is telling the truth, and assumes Stannis is just saying something that will legitimize his claim to the throne. Also...again, some people have mentioned this..but Stannis could have shared....any of this with Renly at any time. He could have...hell, asked Renly to be part of his leadership. He didn't, because Stannis is a truly awful awful politician, even worse than Eddard Stark. Renly wanted to save Robert from the Lannisters, and had plans in mind. Those fell through. He made a decision. He did not know that Stannis would even declare. No clue. Although it wasn't mentioned, wouldn't be surprised if he sent birds to Stannis inviting him to join his counsel. That may have been seen as an insult by Stannis, but still wouldn't surprise me. 

[Bloodraven’s Spider]

26 minutes ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

Because he claims Renly should bend the knee to him. He either is okay with the concept of overthrowing the currnet ruling order, or he is not. He can't be both. You can't have your cake and eat it too. Every single one of Stannis-stans arguments on here have hinged on Renly being horrible for not respecting the line of succession. Stannis doesn't respect the line of succession either. That is called a hypocritical stance. 

He’s clearly on board of overthrowing a ruling party, that doesn’t mean he believes succession rules should be re-written. He clearly feels strongly about the laws of succession staying the same during a exchange of power hence his anger towards Renly.

[Bernie Mac]

4 minutes ago, Bloodraven’s Spider said:

He’s clearly on board of overthrowing a ruling party, that doesn’t mean he believes succession rules should be re-written. He clearly feels strongly about the laws of succession staying the same during a exchange of power hence his anger towards Renly.

Except he doesn't. He supported Robert over Aerys and when it came to appoint a new Lord of Winterfell he cared little for the succession line (either one of the Robb's sisters or one of his cousins in the Vale) and instead offered Winterfell to a very distantly related Karstark.

[Bloodraven’s Spider]

1 minute ago, Bernie Mac said:

Except he doesn't. He supported Robert over Aerys and when it came to appoint a new Lord of Winterfell he cared little for the succession line (either one of the Robb's sisters or one of his cousins in the Vale) and instead offered Winterfell to a very distantly related Karstark.

As i stated earlier hes clearly ok with overthrowing a ruling power... He supported Roberts because he was taught and believed that was his duty, to yield to the elder of his house. He did. He did everything Robert Asked. 

He expected the same of Renly and that didn’t happen. He also offered Winterfell to Jon....

He’s not going to appoint his how new lords but expects them and their families to abide by the laws. Again he ok overthrowing a rule party. But laws do succession stay the same even when a new leader gets appointed. 

 

[Bernie Mac]

10 minutes ago, Bloodraven’s Spider said:

As i stated earlier hes clearly ok with overthrowing a ruling power... He supported Roberts because he was taught and believed that was his duty, to yield to the elder of his house. He did. He did everything Robert Asked. 

Robert was his Lord. Robert and Stannis' feudal relationship is not the same as Stannis' and Renly's. Being the Lord matters, being older is immaterial.

10 minutes ago, Bloodraven’s Spider said:

He expected the same of Renly and that didn’t happen.

Not really. Renly is his brother, that is the extent of their relationship

10 minutes ago, Bloodraven’s Spider said:

 

He also offered Winterfell to Jon....

A bastard. If Stannis thought bastards came before others in the succession line then why did he not proclaim Edric King?

10 minutes ago, Bloodraven’s Spider said:

He’s not going to appoint his how new lords but expects them and their families to abide by the laws. Again he ok overthrowing a rule party. But laws do succession stay the same even when a new leader gets appointed.

He offered Arnolf Karstark Winterfell, ignoring the succession line and the others who came before him

Stannis only cares about the succession line when he is missing out, he is okay for others to miss out.

[Bloodraven’s Spider]

4 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

Robert was his Lord. Robert and Stannis' feudal relationship is not the same as Stannis' and Renly's. Being the Lord matters, being older is immaterial.

Not really. Renly is his brother, that is the extent of their relationship

A bastard. If Stannis thought bastards came before others in the succession line then why did he not proclaim Edric King?

He offered Arnolf Karstark Winterfell, ignoring the succession line and the others who came before him

Stannis only cares about the succession line when he is missing out, he is okay for others to miss out.

He 100% wasnt going to name Edric he despised him because of his conception.

 

Get the fuck outta here. I tell you why Renly is disliked and you freak out. 

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

3 minutes ago, Bloodraven’s Spider said:

He 100% wasnt going to name Edric he despised him because of his conception.

 

Get the fuck outta here. I tell you why Renly is disliked and you freak out. 

Hahaha. Yeah, he is the one freaking out lol. Not he is making good points, and you can't handle it. 

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

6 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

Robert was his Lord. Robert and Stannis' feudal relationship is not the same as Stannis' and Renly's. Being the Lord matters, being older is immaterial.

Not really. Renly is his brother, that is the extent of their relationship

A bastard. If Stannis thought bastards came before others in the succession line then why did he not proclaim Edric King?

He offered Arnolf Karstark Winterfell, ignoring the succession line and the others who came before him

Stannis only cares about the succession line when he is missing out, he is okay for others to miss out.

Bernie, you are killing it man. This is spot on. Stannis is fairly selfish, and his motivation is mostly selfish (before ADwD where...he does appear to actually be fighting for the realm...to an extent)

[Bloodraven’s Spider]

3 minutes ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

Hahaha. Yeah, he is the one freaking out lol. Not he is making good points, and you can't handle it. 

Please you’ve been throwing what if questions for days... 

[Morte]

5 hours ago, frenin said:

8 hours ago, Morte said:

It really isn't a prove, just a clue. That's also why a lot of people who would be interested in it being true still doubt it or dismiss it right away.

It seems prove enough to the Westerosi anyway and it's indeed a prove for us.

But most Westerosi don't see it as prove at all, no one cares about Stannis' letters. It would have been a strong clue had Stannis gone to Robert with his findings, but he didn't.

5 hours ago, frenin said:

Nor were they talking about Targ-Baratheon marriages anyway.

And that's also causing a problem for their argument, because not only - as @Lord Varys pointed out - the Baratheon-seed did not persist anywhere, but also because in case of this particular generation of Baratheos: Cersei could have simply pointed toward not only her own parents, but also to Robert's grand-mother, arguing that the Valyrian blond of Rhaelle Targaryen helped the Lannister blond to win over the Baratheon black.

And she could also have - ironically - pointed toward her youngest brother-in-law, who not only has the lean and lithe build more typical for the Targaryens, but also - Tada! - blue-green eyes.

[Many-Faced Votary]

@Lord Varys

I think we are mostly in agreement! My apologies if my poor phrasing was unclear. 

Just a few things...

Regarding arms: I am not sure if your conclusion is true. You cite examples of people of noble birth claiming arms through ancestry, but to my recollection, only those who were born Targaryens (or later legitimized as such, like the Great Bastards) had claimed the royal arms or a variation of them. There is a distinction to be made between the Royal House and even the Houses of the Lords Paramount; refer to Jon's comment on how Joffrey "makes his mother's House equal in honor to the king's" in Arya I, A Game of Thrones, suggesting this simply is not done, except perhaps by a ruling monarch.

Regarding the hypothetical of Robert I succeeding Aerys II naturally: I think Robert's heirs could and likely would have taken the House name Targaryen precisely because they would have claimed succession peacefully and legally. This would directly strengthen their legitimacy, emphasize the fact that the Iron Throne belongs to them by feudal contract, and to preclude conflict with or power grabs from cadet branches of House Baratheon.

Regarding your point about conquest: Just as a conquest can be called a foreign usurpation, the usurpation of the government can be called an internal conquest. Now, historical and fictional feudal societies -- and Westeros in particular -- did not have such developed views of judiciary systems and certainly not of the concept of nation-states, but Mr. John Locke's point stands. Robert I Baratheon crowned himself via usurpation, though the nobles swore fealty and he kept the crown without dispute due to his Targaryen lineage, and therefore there is a claim to be made that he partially won the Iron Throne through conquest.

Regarding the Targaryen/Baratheon lineage: I agree with you; what I meant was that the maesters would likely use this as an additional justification for the Baratheon dynasty in their histories, precisely for the close relationship in the early years, as you described.

[Frey family reunion]

10 hours ago, Ran said:

George advised, not directed. The TV show changed Renly substantially in part due to suiting the role to the actor, in part because David and Dan made the choice to present him a certain way. GRRM's say on things like this was limited. As he said, if they wanted aliens to invade at the end of a season, there wasn't anything he could do to stop them.

I think that was the original plan, but they decided they'd save that idea for their Star Wars project.  Ooops.

[frenin]

1 hour ago, Morte said:

But most Westerosi don't see it as prove at all, no one cares about Stannis' letters. It would have been a strong clue had Stannis gone to Robert with his findings, but he didn't.

Most Westerosi don't know about that evidence, Stannis doesn't bother to offer them, he just claims that the children are abominations of incest and therefore he is King. 

He doesn't bother to explain why they are like that, hell not even Renly could tell. Stannis for some reason reduced it to a he said she said.

 

1 hour ago, Morte said:

And that's also causing a problem for their argument, because not only - as @Lord Varys pointed out - the Baratheon-seed did not persist anywhere, but also because in case of this particular generation of Baratheos: Cersei could have simply pointed toward not only her own parents, but also to Robert's grand-mother, arguing that the Valyrian blond of Rhaelle Targaryen helped the Lannister blond to win over the Baratheon black.

And that's why Robert's bastards come in to play, to prove that, no It couldn't.

Btw, the pureblood thing, is completely new in Westeros. The thing is, we don't know where it did persist with the Lannisters or where it didn't, because we don't know what happened to those children.

I'd say anywhere that the Baratheon seed persist in the same way the Lannister do, within the same House, we don't see many of that traits on the lesser houses either. It's the thing to try to apply logic to magical convenient genes.

 

 

1 hour ago, Morte said:

And she could also have - ironically - pointed toward her youngest brother-in-law, who not only has the lean and lithe build more typical for the Targaryens, but also - Tada! - blue-green eyes.

Renly's built was very Baratheon ish, not all the Baratheons were built like Robert and i don't remember of any Targs who had green eyes nor any of the Lannister-Baratheon matches that ended with one of them marrying into the ruling branch of any of those two houses, seems a very odd defense.