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Why is Renly seemingly disliked in the community?

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11 hours ago, BericDondarrion said:

Vain, egotistical,  pompous and full of himself is why I dislike renly.

These are certainly reasons to dislike him, though he does not actually seem pompous. We have seen him at Small Council meetings and even War councils, and he was not pompous at either. When Cat points out his 'modesty' he is able to laugh at the truth of the matter.  Pompous describes someone not able to laugh at themselves.

I'm surprised someone with a Stannis and Melisandre avatar can dislike other characters for being pompous. Both characters are extremely self-important.

11 hours ago, BericDondarrion said:

 

And the whole he offered Ned Support fake argument was only to reach his endgame which is to make himself King.

How so? He wanted Cersei out of the way, he was happy for Ned to Joffrey's regent. Ned would be both the ruler of the realm and the Father-in-law of the King till Joffrey came of age.

How is that an endgame to Renly becoming King?

11 hours ago, BericDondarrion said:

He wanted Robert to divorce Cersei and marry Maergery because he would then be the best friend to the brother of the Queen, along with being the brother of the King.

Cersei wants him dead, he himself has no love for Cersei. Do you really think the primary reason he wanted to remove Cersei from power is to make Loras Robert's brother-in-law?

11 hours ago, BericDondarrion said:

 

When Robert dies and a child of Robert and Maergery becomes King/Queen since in Renlys scenario he guesses Joffrey,  Tommen and Myrcella would be disinherited

Where is that ever claimed or suggested in the books?

Vain and Egotistical are solid reasons to dislike the character. But when it comes to claiming he's pompous or creating scenarios that are not present in the text to justify disliking a character then it sounds like you are determined to hate him no matter what.

11 hours ago, BericDondarrion said:

he would have more power being the Uncle and best friend of the rules other Uncle. With a scenario one day with Renly ruling the throne.

How?  How does being best friends with Loras make Renly King? Why would Margaery and the other Tyrells just step aside in the scenario you have just created?

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He is vainglorious, thinks too much of himself without any basis, arrogant. 

Further, he proclaims himself king of all seven kingdoms based on nothing. Doesn't have a clue about the twincest but he wants to be king. Willing to kill his brother, his nephews (thought they were his, didn't he?)...Only to be a king. 

He just died relatively innocent before turning into a monster. 

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Posted (edited)

I’m not sure of what “community” the OP speaks, but I personally liked Renly’s character, especially AGOT Renly.

He could laugh at himself:

Quote

By your extreme youth, you can only be Renly Baratheon, Lord of Storm’s End and councillor to the king, and so I name you.”

Ser Barristan chuckled. “By his extreme youth, he can only be a prancing jackanapes, and so I name him.”

There was general laughter, led by Lord Renly himself.

He had the right attitude about Joffrey’s bullshit accusation against Arya:

Quote

When she got to the part where she threw Joffrey’s sword into the middle of the Trident, Renly Baratheon began to laugh. The king bristled. “Ser Barristan, escort my brother from the hall before he chokes.”

Lord Renly stifled his laughter. “My brother is too kind. I can find the door myself.” He bowed to Joffrey. “Perchance later you’ll tell me how a nine-year-old girl the size of a wet rat managed to disarm you with a broom handle and throw your sword in the river.” As the door swung shut behind him, Ned heard him say, “Lion’s Tooth,” and guffaw once more.

He could trade quips with the quip master Littlefinger:

Quote

“A poor copy,” Renly said with a shrug.

“Though much better dressed,” Littlefinger quipped. “Lord Renly spends more on clothing than half the ladies of the court.”

It was true enough. Lord Renly was in dark green velvet, with a dozen golden stags embroidered on his doublet. A cloth-of-gold half cape was draped casually across one shoulder, fastened with an emerald brooch. “There are worse crimes,” Renly said with a laugh. “The way you dress, for one.”

And Isn’t afraid to bluntly criticize his brother the king:

Quote

“What Lord Varys means is that all this business of coin and crops and justice bores my royal brother to tears,” Lord Renly said, “so it falls to us to govern the realm. He does send us a command from time to time.”

And shows that he isn’t afraid to act decisively (if only Ned shared that trait).

Quote

Give me an hour, and I can put a hundred swords in your hand.”

“And what should I do with a hundred swords, my lord?”

“Strike! Now, while the castle sleeps.” Renly looked back at Ser Boros again and dropped his voice to an urgent whisper. “We must get Joffrey away from his mother and take him in hand. Protector or no, the man who holds the king holds the kingdom. We should seize Myrcella and Tommen as well. Once we have her children, Cersei will not dare oppose us. The council will confirm you as Lord Protector and make Joffrey your ward.”

 

Edited by Frey family reunion

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3 hours ago, The Sunland Lord said:

He is vainglorious, thinks too much of himself without any basis, arrogant. 

He's only 21 and managed to build what's recognized as the most powerful military alliance in the realm and is a member of what amounts to the ruling council of the kingdom. That's not a bad resume.

3 hours ago, The Sunland Lord said:

Further, he proclaims himself king of all seven kingdoms based on nothing. Doesn't have a clue about the twincest but he wants to be king. Willing to kill his brother, his nephews (thought they were his, didn't he?)...Only to be a king. 

He has a solid if far back claim to throne and he's more or less doing what Robert did when he became king -- fight back against potential execution / murder and win by power at arms. He's very up front about both to Ned and Catelyn, even Stannis:

"The Lannisters are not (merciful)"

“All the chivalry of the south rides with me, and that is the least part of my power. My foot is coming behind, a hundred thousand swords and spears and pikes. ”

“Tell me, what right did my brother Robert ever have to the Iron Throne?” He did not wait for an answer. “Oh, there was talk of the blood ties between Baratheon and Targaryen, of weddings a hundred years past, of second sons and elder daughters. No one but the maesters care about any of it. Robert won the throne with his warhammer.” ”

“I lacked the strength to act alone, so when Lord Eddard turned me away, I had no choice but to flee. Had I stayed, I knew the queen would see to it that I did not long outlive my brother.”

3 hours ago, The Sunland Lord said:

He just died relatively innocent before turning into a monster. 

He was already a grown man, not likely to change who he was and he'd wielded a fair amount of power his entire adult life. There are definitely parts of his personality one can dislike, but I have a bit of trouble reading anything that's going to turn him into a monster. The worst thing I can think of is being willing to seize the royal children to save his life and Ned's life or maybe assassinate Dany, whose return would kill a lot of people back home. And again, even the brother killing thing only came up after Stannis attacked Renly to get his army. 

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4 hours ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

He's only 21 and managed to build what's recognized as the most powerful military alliance in the realm and is a member of what amounts to the ruling council of the kingdom. That's not a bad resume.

He is a member of the ruling council of the kingdom thanks to his brother and nothing else. 

After he received one of the most powerful lands in Westeros, again, by his brother, and not other reason whatsoever, he did form an alliance with the Reach. I'll give him that. Nothing impressive here. 

4 hours ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

He has a solid if far back claim to throne and he's more or less doing what Robert did when he became king -- fight back against potential execution / murder and win by power at arms. He's very up front about both to Ned and Catelyn, even Stannis:

"The Lannisters are not (merciful)"

“All the chivalry of the south rides with me, and that is the least part of my power. My foot is coming behind, a hundred thousand swords and spears and pikes. ”

“Tell me, what right did my brother Robert ever have to the Iron Throne?” He did not wait for an answer. “Oh, there was talk of the blood ties between Baratheon and Targaryen, of weddings a hundred years past, of second sons and elder daughters. No one but the maesters care about any of it. Robert won the throne with his warhammer.” ”

“I lacked the strength to act alone, so when Lord Eddard turned me away, I had no choice but to flee. Had I stayed, I knew the queen would see to it that I did not long outlive my brother.”

He was already a grown man, not likely to change who he was and he'd wielded a fair amount of power his entire adult life. There are definitely parts of his personality one can dislike, but I have a bit of trouble reading anything that's going to turn him into a monster. The worst thing I can think of is being willing to seize the royal children to save his life and Ned's life or maybe assassinate Dany, whose return would kill a lot of people back home. And again, even the brother killing thing only came up after Stannis attacked Renly to get his army. 

He was following his brother's footsteps thinking that he can fill his shoes. But there is a difference between a plot (Cersei) and outright demanding the heads of Ned and Robert (Aerys II) that pissed off more than half of the kingdoms and they joined the rebels. What Renly had was an alliance with the Tyrells, publicly known as an alliance formed to overthrow the king that was known as his nephew, even to himself. He was not capable nor experienced in military affairs, not even willing to listen to those who were more experienced. He wasn't even a natural born warrior that was Robert. 

But, all of these points don't make him disliked. What makes me dislike him are the points I made in my previous post. 

Vainglorious, thinks too much of himself, arrogant, power hungry, potential murderer of his brother and nephews in order to grab this power he so much has coveted. 

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27 minutes ago, The Sunland Lord said:

He is a member of the ruling council of the kingdom thanks to his brother and nothing else. 

After he received one of the most powerful lands in Westeros, again, by his brother, and not other reason whatsoever, he did form an alliance with the Reach. I'll give him that. Nothing impressive here. 

This is basically how nobility in Westeros works. You can't ding him for fulfilling familial obligations. You can, however, compare him to other nobility and see who stacks up, and realistically there are only 5ish guys you can compare him at 20-21:

  • Tywin - fought in a war and knighted, became hand at 20 (friendship with Aerys II), feared / respected lord of the West at 25
  • Stannis - fought in a war (presumably already knighted), named master of ships (brother of king), rebuilt fleet to seize a surrendering DS, became feared / respected lord of DS
  • Robert - Knighted, participated as tourney knight, became beloved lord of the SL, led a rebellion to save his life, became king (named king bc he was closely related to dead king)
  • Jon Connington - Knighted, participated as tourney knight, became hand of king (Best friend of king's son), failed miserably and exiled to Essos
  • Ned - led a rebellion to save his life, became beloved lord of the north (inherited title from dead family), helped secure KL during rebellion, saved his nephew from death by Gregor, retreated north until next war
  • Renly - Knighted, participated as tourney knight, became beloved lord of the SL, became master of laws (brother to the king), brokered most powerful alliance in Westeros during a 5 sided civil war

All of those guys had accomplished a lot and had solid connections to the ruling family; the only real thing that they have on Renly is fighting in a war, which he was too young to do with them and in the process of when he died. 

27 minutes ago, The Sunland Lord said:

He was following his brother's footsteps thinking that he can fill his shoes. But there is a difference between a plot (Cersei) and outright demanding the heads of Ned and Robert (Aerys II) that pissed off more than half of the kingdoms and they joined the rebels. What Renly had was an alliance with the Tyrells, publicly known as an alliance formed to overthrow the king that was known as his nephew, even to himself. He was not capable nor experienced in military affairs, not even willing to listen to those who were more experienced. He wasn't even a natural born warrior that was Robert. 

Cersei had tried to get Robert killed before and succeeded in getting him killed. Renly is clearly worried about Cersei trying to kill him and tries to stop it twice. His nephew the king hates him and is controlled by his mother who wants him dead.

They got 2 regions through loyalty: the North and the Vale. The others were either enticed to join for a price (dual marriage ceremony for Catelyn, Lysa) or joined after most of the fighting was done. Renly's alliance was stronger (mustered men) than either faction in RR or anyone in the Wo5K. 

He was slowly marching up the KR letting his enemies pound each other while his men's strength and morale stayed high. He offered decent terms to both Robb and Stannis. He calls for a war council where he specifically solicits advice from his top commanders and again before the battle starts. You'll note that this is something Tywin and Jaime both do, and he specifically follows the advice of Tarly, the "finest soldier in the realm," and other commanders. Renly is a tourney knight whose squire is one of the best knights in the realm and we only see lose to the eventual tourney winner Gregor in the quarterfinals, who'd already beaten Jaime. He might not be Robert but clearly he's not doing too badly. 

27 minutes ago, The Sunland Lord said:

But, all of these points don't make him disliked. What makes me dislike him are the points I made in my previous post. 

Vainglorious, thinks too much of himself, arrogant, power hungry, potential murderer of his brother and nephews in order to grab this power he so much has coveted. 

A lot of those points aren't very accurate and / or completely lack context.

  • Vainglorious, thinks too much of himself, arrogant - these are all the same thing but accurate
  • Power hungry - tries to diminish / reduce Lannister power at court twice without awarding more power to himself (replacing Cersei, offering Ned men to seize Joff and make him Lord Protector and Regent). Explicitly crowns himself to prevent his death by the Lannisters
  • Potential murderer of his brother and nephews - one nephew hates him and is already willing to attaint him and all his titles unless he pledges fealty while his regent mother watches on (and wants Renly dead). Tommen and Myrcella I give you. Death in combat is not murder, and he offered Stannis a way out and for proof of incest even though Stannis is the one who picked the fight while remaining incommunicado for nearly a year.

So when broken down Renly is an arrogant noble who's benefitted from close connections to the crown but served competently (see Ran earlier in the thread) when called to and built an alliance to save his life from the queen regent. Might possibly kill brother on the battlefield and imprison / kill his nephews, one of whom hates him and has threatened him with attainting.

 

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1 hour ago, The Sunland Lord said:

He is a member of the ruling council of the kingdom thanks to his brother and nothing else. 

 

Stannis or Renly? Or both?

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On 7/16/2020 at 8:42 AM, Ran said:

Stannis or Varys can say "There are 16 bastard children of Robert Baratheon who all have his coloring", but if someone says, "Okay, produce them and their mothers and have them provide their testimony that they are related to Robert", Varys isn't likely to be able to do it in all cases, and Stannis isn't able to do it in nearly any case.

Even Stannis says Edric is only proof "of a sort". 

Odd only John Arryn talked to Varys or perhaps assumed both Varys and Littlefinger knew about incest/illegitimacy and knew about the bastards.  Stannis in book never speculated  about either of their knowledge. When Stannis learned about the corruption in the Gold cloaks and the buying of officer titles and duties, it was revealed by both Varys and Littlefinger the crown already knew of said corruption and gathered a large slice of corrupt revenue.

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12 hours ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

This is basically how nobility in Westeros works. You can't ding him for fulfilling familial obligations. You can, however, compare him to other nobility and see who stacks up, and realistically there are only 5ish guys you can compare him at 20-21:

I'm not blaming him for living in such a system. I am just saying there's nothing praiseworthy about his accomplishments. All he did was the king's brother. He would've never got in that position by merit if Robert didn't win over the crown. 

12 hours ago, Universal Sword Donor said:
  • Tywin - fought in a war and knighted, became hand at 20 (friendship with Aerys II), feared / respected lord of the West at 25
  • Stannis - fought in a war (presumably already knighted), named master of ships (brother of king), rebuilt fleet to seize a surrendering DS, became feared / respected lord of DS
  • Robert - Knighted, participated as tourney knight, became beloved lord of the SL, led a rebellion to save his life, became king (named king bc he was closely related to dead king)
  • Jon Connington - Knighted, participated as tourney knight, became hand of king (Best friend of king's son), failed miserably and exiled to Essos
  • Ned - led a rebellion to save his life, became beloved lord of the north (inherited title from dead family), helped secure KL during rebellion, saved his nephew from death by Gregor, retreated north until next war
  • Renly - Knighted, participated as tourney knight, became beloved lord of the SL, became master of laws (brother to the king), brokered most powerful alliance in Westeros during a 5 sided civil war

Renly doesn't belong on this list. Tywin, Ned, Robert, Stannis are all proven warriors/commanders and they do have pretty impressive accomplishments. They proved themselves to be competent. How is Renly with his participation on a tourney and being beloved suddenly very successful? Again, master of laws via his brother being a king.

Brokered alliance - yes he did, after having one of the most powerful kingdoms given to him by his brother, and was used by another powerful family that wanted their girl to become a queen. It's like saying Tyrion is this mastermind for coming up with the idea that they should ally with the Tyrells after Renly's death. The Tyrells didn't have a problem to ally with anyone that was going to promise them a royal wedding. 

12 hours ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

A lot of those points aren't very accurate and / or completely lack context.

  • Vainglorious, thinks too much of himself, arrogant - these are all the same thing but accurate

Whatever, they are not all the exact same thing but they are whole package of traits for people like Renly so I'll take it.

12 hours ago, Universal Sword Donor said:
  • Power hungry - tries to diminish / reduce Lannister power at court twice without awarding more power to himself (replacing Cersei, offering Ned men to seize Joff and make him Lord Protector and Regent). Explicitly crowns himself to prevent his death by the Lannisters

He didn't know about the twincest, so it leaves him being only more power hungry and a schemer like everyone else around him. He wants to replace the queen with another queen to get more power for himself. But also he is stupid enough to not know that this would lead to a civil war against the Lannisters. Or, smart enough to know it, but still going along with it and fine with a civil war- only for him to grab more influence/power in court.

After Robert's death, yeah, I'll give in that pretty much Ned played it stupidly and Renly did offer him a good deal. 

12 hours ago, Universal Sword Donor said:
  • Potential murderer of his brother and nephews - one nephew hates him and is already willing to attaint him and all his titles unless he pledges fealty while his regent mother watches on (and wants Renly dead). Tommen and Myrcella I give you. Death in combat is not murder, and he offered Stannis a way out and for proof of incest even though Stannis is the one who picked the fight while remaining incommunicado for nearly a year.

So when broken down Renly is an arrogant noble who's benefitted from close connections to the crown but served competently (see Ran earlier in the thread) when called to and built an alliance to save his life from the queen regent. Might possibly kill brother on the battlefield and imprison / kill his nephews, one of whom hates him and has threatened him with attainting.

 

Murder, kill, you name it. His brother Stannis would've ended up dead. 

He crowned himself based on nothing - bypassing the hierarchy with a clear intent to murder all of his nephews. He can't be a king if Joffrey, Tommen and Myrcella are alive. So it's not only Joffrey. In order for him and Margaery to become king and queen, they all gotta go. 

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1 minute ago, The Sunland Lord said:

I'm not blaming him for living in such a system. I am just saying there's nothing praiseworthy about his accomplishments. All he did was the king's brother. He would've never got in that position by merit if Robert didn't win over the crown. 

The same goes for Stannis, right?

1 minute ago, The Sunland Lord said:

Renly doesn't belong on this list. Tywin, Ned, Robert, Stannis are all proven warriors/commanders and they do have pretty impressive accomplishments.

So the difference between those people is that they had wars when they were Renly's age and Renly has not. Had the Greyjoy Rebellion happened in 297 instead of 292 Renly would be in that bracket.

1 minute ago, The Sunland Lord said:

 

They proved themselves to be competent. How is Renly with his participation on a tourney and being beloved suddenly very successful? Again, master of laws via his brother being a king.

He's proved himself competent as the ruler of the Stormlands, no?

And if you are going to discount being on the Small Council because of who his brother is then that also discounts Stannis and possibly Tywin, who was appointed Hand by his best friend.

 

1 minute ago, The Sunland Lord said:

Brokered alliance - yes he did, after having one of the most powerful kingdoms given to him by his brother, and was used by another powerful family that wanted their girl to become a queen. It's like saying Tyrion is this mastermind for coming up with the idea that they should ally with the Tyrells after Renly's death. The Tyrells didn't have a problem to ally with anyone that was going to promise them a royal wedding. 

That is not true. We have no idea how the Tyrells would have reacted if Robb or Stannis also offered them royal weddings. We have no idea how they would have reacted if Joffrey was offered to them at the same time Renly was.

You seem to want to downplay Renly's achievements but you have very little to back up your claims.

1 minute ago, The Sunland Lord said:

 

He didn't know about the twincest, so it leaves him being only more power hungry and a schemer like everyone else around him.

The primary reason to get rid of Cersei is because she was a danger to him. She herself confirms this in her own chapters, she would have rid herself of both Renly and Stannis.

Renly being savvy enough to recognize that is pretty impressive.

1 minute ago, The Sunland Lord said:

 

 He wants to replace the queen with another queen to get more power for himself.

How does that really work?

He is Lord of the Stormlands, Master of Law. How does he get more powerful from Margaery marrying Robert?

If anything the opposite is true. Margaery is probably the biggest prize for a Lord, any wife he ends up will be a less advantageous match for him. You can actually argue that Renly is sacrificing power for himself in a bid to remove Cersei from power.

1 minute ago, The Sunland Lord said:

 

But also he is stupid enough to not know that this would lead to a civil war against the Lannisters. Or, smart enough to know it, but still going along with it and fine with a civil war- only for him to grab more influence/power in court.

I'm not sure your point? Cersei wants him dead. He is aware of that. Getting her away from the Crown saves his life.

Having a Tyrell bride lessens the chance of war, especially if Joffrey is still heir. Tywin might not be happy, but he's not going to war when three of his grandchildren are royalty.

1 minute ago, The Sunland Lord said:

 

Murder, kill, you name it. His brother Stannis would've ended up dead. 

  1. Stannis attacked Renly's home.
  2. Renly chose to talk to Stannis rather than crush him
  3. Renly offered Stannis the Stormlands in exchange for his 5k men,
  4. Stannis refused and threatened to destroy Renly
  5. Stannis assassinated Renly

How Stannis fans keep on trying to change the narrative that somehow he is the victim in this is ridiculous.

 

1 minute ago, The Sunland Lord said:

He crowned himself based on nothing - bypassing the hierarchy with a clear intent to murder all of his nephews. He can't be a king if Joffrey, Tommen and Myrcella are alive.

He can. Robert was a king with his cousins Viserys and Dany still alive.

Stannis was also infront of him and Renly was more than willing to let him live.

1 minute ago, The Sunland Lord said:

 

So it's not only Joffrey. In order for him and Margaery to become king and queen, they all gotta go. 

Possibly, possibly not. Tywin's grandchildren kept alive may actually benefit Renly by keeping the peace. Renly had been shown to be willing to compromise and negotiate.

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1 hour ago, The Sunland Lord said:

I'm not blaming him for living in such a system. I am just saying there's nothing praiseworthy about his accomplishments. All he did was the king's brother. He would've never got in that position by merit if Robert didn't win over the crown. 

Do you think Tywin would have been Hand if he weren't Aerys' friend from the war? What about Robert's father being chosen to find a bride in Volantis? Who did Stannis appoint for his closest advisers initially? Florents as hand, admiral and another Florent styles himself hand of the queen. Cersei attempts to make Jaime and then Kevan hand of the king. Meritocracy in nobility IRL and in Westeros isn't the normal SOP. The best examples we have are Varys (brought in by a paranoid king and plotting betrayal), LF (nepotism appointment, corrupt, fomenting treason), and Davos ( actual competence). 

1 hour ago, The Sunland Lord said:

Renly doesn't belong on this list. Tywin, Ned, Robert, Stannis are all proven warriors/commanders and they do have pretty impressive accomplishments. They proved themselves to be competent. How is Renly with his participation on a tourney and being beloved suddenly very successful? Again, master of laws via his brother being a king.

Basically he's just younger than those guys. That's the only counterpoint. You literally *cannot* knock him for that without making an apples and oranges comparison. As to tourney knight and beloved ruler, I was drawing a comparison of development across ages, which is pretty crucial for comparing people. Renly being a competent or better knight and developing loyalty and affection from his subjects are both key indicators on his competence as a ruler from a martial and governance perspective. No one is complaining about his performance as master of laws either.

1 hour ago, The Sunland Lord said:

Brokered alliance - yes he did, after having one of the most powerful kingdoms given to him by his brother, and was used by another powerful family that wanted their girl to become a queen. It's like saying Tyrion is this mastermind for coming up with the idea that they should ally with the Tyrells after Renly's death. The Tyrells didn't have a problem to ally with anyone that was going to promise them a royal wedding. 

So he had strong chips to play and parlayed that into a bigger stack? Terrible politician there. And we have no idea what the Lannisters or Robb would have gotten in return for a proposal to Marg. Robb likely would have been rejected since Mace wants the IT in his family and Joff was still engaged to Sansa. Either way, Renly made it a priority to secure their alliance and did before anyone else, another point in his favor.

1 hour ago, The Sunland Lord said:

Whatever, they are not all the exact same thing but they are whole package of traits for people like Renly so I'll take it.

Those three particular words / phrases are synonyms. I'll happily post the definitions if you want clarity.

1 hour ago, The Sunland Lord said:

He didn't know about the twincest, so it leaves him being only more power hungry and a schemer like everyone else around him. He wants to replace the queen with another queen to get more power for himself. But also he is stupid enough to not know that this would lead to a civil war against the Lannisters. Or, smart enough to know it, but still going along with it and fine with a civil war- only for him to grab more influence/power in court.

He figured out that Cersei was trying to kill him -- she confirms in AFFC -- and tried to offset her influence and then tries to secure his own position by making someone else more powerful. After those fail, yes he is in effect starting a civil war to save his life. I wonder where he got that idea? Bear in mind he only declared king after figuring out Cersei wanted to kill him, Joffrey threatened to attaint him (aka kill) if he didn't return.

1 hour ago, The Sunland Lord said:

After Robert's death, yeah, I'll give in that pretty much Ned played it stupidly and Renly did offer him a good deal. 

Not the dumbest thing Ned could have done, but 2nd after telling Cersei you know

1 hour ago, The Sunland Lord said:

Murder, kill, you name it. His brother Stannis would've ended up dead. 

Correct. Stannis would have ended up dead in imprisoned after attacking Renly's castle and threatening to kill him.

1 hour ago, The Sunland Lord said:

He crowned himself based on nothing - bypassing the hierarchy with a clear intent to murder all of his nephews. He can't be a king if Joffrey, Tommen and Myrcella are alive. So it's not only Joffrey. In order for him and Margaery to become king and queen, they all gotta go. 

He's a direct relation of Robert. Of course he has a claim to the crown. It's not as strong as the three claimants above him, but history, real and Westeros, are replete with examples of people with weaker claims declaring themselves king / a title and winning it: William the Conqueror x 2, Henry I, the entire war of roses (which is what ASOIAF is based on), Phillip VI, et al. He can totally be king if they are all alive, they'd just have to be imprisoned or swear absolutely fealty to him and be kept on a short leash. I'd imagine Joff would have to go but it wouldn't be the first time other claimants had been imprisoned as a way of strengthening one's rule.

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1 hour ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

Do you think Tywin would have been Hand if he weren't Aerys' friend from the war? What about Robert's father being chosen to find a bride in Volantis? Who did Stannis appoint for his closest advisers initially? Florents as hand, admiral and another Florent styles himself hand of the queen. Cersei attempts to make Jaime and then Kevan hand of the king. Meritocracy in nobility IRL and in Westeros isn't the normal SOP. The best examples we have are Varys (brought in by a paranoid king and plotting betrayal), LF (nepotism appointment, corrupt, fomenting treason), and Davos ( actual competence). 

I understand all of that. I get that mainly nobility can progress in Westeros. But what does it have to do with Renly? This thread is about why is he disliked. 

1 hour ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

Basically he's just younger than those guys. That's the only counterpoint. You literally *cannot* knock him for that without making an apples and oranges comparison. As to tourney knight and beloved ruler, I was drawing a comparison of development across ages, which is pretty crucial for comparing people. Renly being a competent or better knight and developing loyalty and affection from his subjects are both key indicators on his competence as a ruler from a martial and governance perspective. No one is complaining about his performance as master of laws either.

He is younger than those guys but yet you were the first to compare him with them. You only give him potential to be like them one day, but you put him on the same list with them as if he already accomplished something, which he didn't.

1 hour ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

So he had strong chips to play and parlayed that into a bigger stack? Terrible politician there. And we have no idea what the Lannisters or Robb would have gotten in return for a proposal to Marg. Robb likely would have been rejected since Mace wants the IT in his family and Joff was still engaged to Sansa. Either way, Renly made it a priority to secure their alliance and did before anyone else, another point in his favor.

Good politician, yes. Made the right choice there. He was preparing for war and got himself a good alliance. Well done. 

1 hour ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

Those three particular words / phrases are synonyms. I'll happily post the definitions if you want clarity.

Let's not go that way.

1 hour ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

He figured out that Cersei was trying to kill him -- she confirms in AFFC -- and tried to offset her influence and then tries to secure his own position by making someone else more powerful. After those fail, yes he is in effect starting a civil war to save his life. I wonder where he got that idea? Bear in mind he only declared king after figuring out Cersei wanted to kill him, Joffrey threatened to attaint him (aka kill) if he didn't return.

He declared himself king because he wanted to be one. He complied with the Tyrells who wanted to be a royal family - and he would've killed his brother and "nephews" in the process.

1 hour ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

Correct. Stannis would have ended up dead in imprisoned after attacking Renly's castle and threatening to kill him.

He's a direct relation of Robert. Of course he has a claim to the crown. It's not as strong as the three claimants above him, but history, real and Westeros, are replete with examples of people with weaker claims declaring themselves king / a title and winning it: William the Conqueror x 2, Henry I, the entire war of roses (which is what ASOIAF is based on), Phillip VI, et al. He can totally be king if they are all alive, they'd just have to be imprisoned or swear absolutely fealty to him and be kept on a short leash. I'd imagine Joff would have to go but it wouldn't be the first time other claimants had been imprisoned as a way of strengthening one's rule.

He doesn't have a claim to the throne and he knows it. It's not as if the people who had the right before him died or were sick. He is going to wipe them all out - only so that he can be a king. 

So, he kills Stannis, Joffrey, Tommen and Myrcella. He enters KL and sits on the throne.

What kind of a king would be known for? A butcher and a kinslayer, worse than Joffrey. At least he intended to be one. 

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22 minutes ago, The Sunland Lord said:

I understand all of that. I get that mainly nobility can progress in Westeros. But what does it have to do with Renly? This thread is about why is he disliked. 

It lays out the folly of a prime thrust you dislike Renly. Not only does Stannis not merit merit the position of castellan he receives during RR -- after all he's got no experience in war and can't even get a hawk to fly properly! -- he turns around and does the exact same thing you're condemning Renly for being the recipient of with completely unqualified people who led his army and navy into disaster. You're inconsistently applying a standard to take down a character as well as prop a different one up.

22 minutes ago, The Sunland Lord said:

He is younger than those guys but yet you were the first to compare him with them. You only give him potential to be like them one day, but you put him on the same list with them as if he already accomplished something, which he didn't.

That's more or less exactly what I did. I'm comparing him to those guys and their achievements in their early 20s. Notice I didn't include anything later? And yes he had achieved quite a bit and for reasons that were on par with the five you include as proven commanders / warrior with impressive resumes. 

22 minutes ago, The Sunland Lord said:

Good politician, yes. Made the right choice there. He was preparing for war and got himself a good alliance. Well done. 

This is an impressive accomplishment for someone who's a magnate of the realm, let alone attainted a traitor by the crown.

22 minutes ago, The Sunland Lord said:

Let's not go that way.

Then I'd suggest you'd learn the words. I'm not even disputing that he doesn't fit that profile (maybe its relevance given Westeros nobility)

22 minutes ago, The Sunland Lord said:

He declared himself king because he wanted to be one. He complied with the Tyrells who wanted to be a royal family - and he would've killed his brother and "nephews" in the process.

He declared himself king because that's the only way he was going to survive. I am happy to post his convos with Ned, Catelyn, Cersei's thoughts, and the part where Joffrey demands fealty or he'll be a traitor to the crown. And he *might* have killed his family in the process, definitely was fine with Stannis dying in battle where Stannis wanted him to die.

22 minutes ago, The Sunland Lord said:

He doesn't have a claim to the throne and he knows it. It's not as if the people who had the right before him died or were sick. He is going to wipe them all out - only so that he can be a king. 

He has a blood claim and a claim by his powerful army. This *entire* argument is is negated by the rebellion his older brother fought to save his own life.

22 minutes ago, The Sunland Lord said:

So, he kills Stannis, Joffrey, Tommen and Myrcella. He enters KL and sits on the throne.

What kind of a king would be known for? A butcher and a kinslayer, worse than Joffrey. At least he intended to be one. 

Stannis opposed him on the field of battle. That's a clean death by any standards for Renly. If he killed the other heirs, he'd probably just claim they were bastards all along and use Stannis' letter as proof. The only people who'd care would be the Westerlands. Either way, Tommen was smuggled out of the city and Myrcella was in Dorne. They were beyond his grasp. He'd likely have had Doran keep Myrcella as a hostage in exchange for the Mountain or his body. That's all speculation though. Renly certainly wouldn't have had any qualms of disposing or imprisoning them tho. He'd like have done what was prudent, given that he's such a good politician, per your own words.

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1 hour ago, The Sunland Lord said:

He doesn't have a claim to the throne and he knows it. It's not as if the people who had the right before him died or were sick. He is going to wipe them all out - only so that he can be a king. 

Excuse me, but that exactly do you want Renly to do?

Should he go to Essos and search for his cousin? And why does nobody complain about Stannis not doing this?

(And because we know so little about Renly's plans and how the idea of crowning himself developed, it might well be that "Doing-the-Barristan" had been one of his original options, but was discarded for oblivious reasons that had been already discussed elsewhere. That's why I really, really would like Loras as a POV, because if the whole crowning would turn out to have been a Tyrell-idea which cost Renly's life in the end, playing "sewer rats" would have been the better choice in the end)

49 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

Either way, Tommen was smuggled out of the city and Myrcella was in Dorne. They were beyond his grasp. He'd likely have had Doran keep Myrcella as a hostage in exchange for the Mountain or his body. That's all speculation though. Renly certainly wouldn't have had any qualms of disposing or imprisoning them tho. He'd like have done what was prudent, given that he's such a good politician, per your own words.

We would have left Myrcella in Dorne, would have seriously tried to give the Mountain to Doran; might be he would even have kept Tommen as heir, or given him to Tywin.

I don't really think he would have murdered the two children. Joffrey however is another story.

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On 7/18/2020 at 9:53 PM, Eltharion21 said:

* I am not sure how that all is relevant to the fact they are currently legal dynasty in Westeros, but I'll play along.

...lol. Because Stannis-stans entire argument for why Stannis is better than Renly is Renly owes him allegiance. Stannis owed Aerys allegiance. He didn't give it. He owed Rhaegar allegiance. He didn't give it. He will owe Daenerys allegiance from her perspective. He won't give it. The dynasty is one king old and even then, to the vast majority of Westeros (including Renly) Stannis is rebelling against the actual lawful King (Joffrey). Renly is not privy to the information we have, He is unsure, at best, that Stannis is telling the truth. 

On 7/18/2020 at 9:53 PM, Eltharion21 said:

Robert Baratheon didn't alone rebel, Aerys II demanded head of wards Eddard Stark and Robert from Jon Arryn, after he murdered Rickard and Brandon Stark and heir of Jon Arryn.

They rebelled along with Hoster Tully which makes it rebellion of 4 lords paramount in start, eventually joined with Westerlands, with Dorne and Reach on side of Targaryens and Iron Islands neutral.

They  choose Robert to be leader of rebels, with his closer familial ties out of rebel leaders  as means of continuation of civil order and appeasing some Targaryen loyalists.

Renly was almost certainly going to be murdered or imprisoned by Cersei if he stayed in King's Landing. This is something he knew because unlike Eddard, he was actually playing the game. Westerlands only joined Robert's Rebellion after it was won, so it was 4 lords paramounts. Renly is Lord Paramount of the Stormlands, and the Reach's lord paramount joined his as well. I will admit Renly should have been more sure of Dorne. However, since you included the Westerlands, I can almost garuntee given Renly's victory that Dorne would have made pretty noises at least and not warred with Renly. Also, given that Renly took King's Landing, I think he could have made some peace with Robb (so that is two more Kingdoms). 

On 7/18/2020 at 9:53 PM, Eltharion21 said:

* Robert was negligent probably due depression, which allowed many sycophants or subversive elements to gain power in King's Landing.

 I am not sure how they managed to in-debt throne so fast, mostly to Braavos, House Lannister and Faith. Especially if Littlefinger was Master of Coin for several years and Robert was king for 14 years. 

Though take note that it isn't kingdom that is bankrupt, there are still funds and resources in various regions of Westeros, that is until it is spent in War of the five kings, Targaryen invasions from Essos, Ironborn raids or Winter.

Renly also doesn't seem like very economical potential ruler, spending money on lavish parties, tourneys and luxury.

He was spending "Tyrell money" and this opulence was exactly why the Stormlands/Reach followed him. He was giving them what they wanted. Littlefinger was directly responsible for enriching himself (probably in some cases at the expense of the Iron Throne). Robert was a horrible King. It is true, he was perhaps depressed...I have no idea...but it was also because he was a lazy fuck who liked to drink, eat, and have sex...and perhaps fight from time to time, and that is about it. He was a horrible husband, horrible friend, horrible father (he thought they were his), and horrible King. 

On 7/18/2020 at 9:53 PM, Eltharion21 said:

* Renly wanted to replace Lannister's with Tyrells, not make essential changes or clear corruption from the capitol. 

If he wanted to save Robert he has done poor job, even worse than other people accused for it like Eddard, Jon or Stannis, because he was always present in court and even the day he was gored by boar. 
Main thing is Robert himself was his worst enemy, and if people don't want to help themselves no one can.

You have no idea about this supposition. None. You are just stating random statements without any evidence (because there is none from either direction as we do not get to see enough inside Renly's camp). As far as saving Robert, he brought his idea about Maegery to Eddard...fearfully, to which he was basically dismissed. I like Eddard, but he never respected Renly or gave him a chance. No wonder Renly was nervous to approach him. Did Renly approach Stannis or Jon Arryn? We have no idea. He might of. We literally can't know either way. Renly was terrified of Cersei (Keep in mind he probably assumes Jon Arryn was murdered by the Lannisters). We don't know how long Renly has been at court, but we can assume the power block has been against him most of the time. I agree that no one could save Robert, but at least Renly was trying to. Stannis may or may not have been trying to. Him bringing his suspicions to Jon Arryn, based on my perception of Stannis, was more self serving than for the benefit of Robert. Jon Arryn and Eddard failed Robert by not telling him in the same way Renly did. Everyone should have tried talking to Robert more, but Robert's own Lannister control is probably what made everyone afraid to approach Robert. 

On 7/18/2020 at 9:53 PM, Eltharion21 said:

Stannis had brought his information to Jon Arryn, when he was murdered and Robert found nothing suspicious and decided to go on tour to North , he could only leave pit of vipers that is King's Landing and prepare for what was to come.

He also did sent letter to every part of the Realm, from Arbor to the Wall where he told about his claim and bastardy of false Baratheon's.

He offered Renly pardon and naming him heir until and if he get's son.

Even with information and offer on the table, Renly decides to ignore it and kill his brother in battle.

Renly also left the nest of pit vipers before he could be killed. Renly declared himself King before Stannis sent those letters. Stannis never tried to convince Renly to come to Dragonstone to tlak to him or something. He did nothing to protect his younger brother from harm. Why should younger brothers owe allegiance to older brothers. As far as I was aware, it was because older brothers protected younger brothers. Stannis didn't do that.  Renly offered Stannis a pardon and named him Lord of Storm's End. Even with that information, Stannis murders his brother in the most cowardly possible. Say again. Stannis came to take Storm's End and murder his brother. Renly didn't show up in Dragonstone ready to murder his brother. It's like if two kids started a fight in my class, one clearly punched the other one first, then that same kid ended up beating up the second kid, and I was like...well the second kid hit back : He's really the one I should blame for this. Jesus, the Stannis-stan hoop jumping logic. 

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20 hours ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

He figured out that Cersei was trying to kill him -- she confirms in AFFC -- and tried to offset her influence and then tries to secure his own position by making someone else more powerful. After those fail, yes he is in effect starting a civil war to save his life. I wonder where he got that idea? Bear in mind he only declared king after figuring out Cersei wanted to kill him, Joffrey threatened to attaint him (aka kill) if he didn't return.

That is too favorite a reading here. We don't know why and how Renly developed this idea to replace Cersei with Margaery. The idea that Cersei is the one responsible for those Renly-Cersei issues is not exactly to be found in the text.

We can reason that Cersei wanted to deal with Stannis and Renly because of the twincest issue, but even that's not confirmed explicitly by her. With Renly not knowing about the twincest he cannot have feared Cersei would kill him on that basis. And what Cersei knew about Renly's Margaery plot we never actually learn.

This is an issue the author failed to depict in detail, causing people fill in the blankets by themselves.

We don't know when Renly made to call to be king himself - but his escape certainly can be seen as him starting treason. Why would the king's brother run away and hide and not attend the king's funeral?

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1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

That is too favorite a reading here. We don't know why and how Renly developed this idea to replace Cersei with Margaery. The idea that Cersei is the one responsible for those Renly-Cersei issues is not exactly to be found in the text.

We can reason that Cersei wanted to deal with Stannis and Renly because of the twincest issue, but even that's not confirmed explicitly by her. With Renly not knowing about the twincest he cannot have feared Cersei would kill him on that basis. And what Cersei knew about Renly's Margaery plot we never actually learn.

This is an issue the author failed to depict in detail, causing people fill in the blankets by themselves.

We don't know when Renly made to call to be king himself - but his escape certainly can be seen as him starting treason. Why would the king's brother run away and hide and not attend the king's funeral?

Because he thinks the Lannisters are going to kill him. We know this because he said it to Ned and to Cat, which Cersei confirms. It's why he offers men 100 men to overwhelm the red cloaks to seize the royal children. The only way he is going to stay alive is if Cersei doesn't have control of the palace. He knows that Stannis left and has remained incommunicado for months after Jon Arryn died and he might even know what Varys has gathered about DS -- no ships can come anywhere near DS and leave.

How anyone could construe leaving the capital as treason (unless it was a predetermined judgment)? Going home to SE is not a crime.

Well we know the answer for that when Joffrey basically anoints nearly everyone in the realm a traitor, including Renly and the Tyrells, unless they come rush to bend the knee at once. Even Roose knows an invitation from power works best (iron fist, velvet glove). Most of these people aren't even in the capital when the death occurs, so they are being lumped in with your "traitors."

“Pycelle pushed himself to his feet. He was clad in a magnificent robe of thick red velvet, with an ermine collar and shiny gold fastenings. From a drooping sleeve, heavy with gilded scrollwork, he drew a parchment, unrolled it, and began to read a long list of names, commanding each in the name of king and council to present themselves and swear their fealty to Joffrey. Failing that, they would be adjudged traitors, their lands and titles forfeit to the throne.
The names he read made Sansa hold her breath. Lord Stannis Baratheon, his lady wife, his daughter. Lord Renly Baratheon. Both Lord Royces and their sons. Ser Loras Tyrell. Lord Mace Tyrell, his brothers, uncles, sons. The red priest, Thoros of Myr. Lord Beric Dondarrion. Lady Lysa Arryn and her son, the little Lord Robert. Lord Hoster Tully, his brother Ser Brynden, his son Ser Edmure. Lord Jason Mallister. Lord Bryce Caron of the Marches. Lord Tytos Blackwood. Lord Walder Frey and his heir Ser Stevron. Lord Karyl Vance. Lord Jonos Bracken. Lady Shella Whent. Doran Martell, Prince of Dorne, and all his sons. So many, she thought as Pycelle read on and on, it will take a[…]”

Renly staying with a king who hates him, is itching to attaint him, and ruled over by a mother who wants him dead? Folly

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31 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

Because he thinks the Lannisters are going to kill him. We know this because he said it to Ned and to Cat, which Cersei confirms. It's why he offers men 100 men to overwhelm the red cloaks to seize the royal children. The only way he is going to stay alive is if Cersei doesn't have control of the palace. He knows that Stannis left and has remained incommunicado for months after Jon Arryn died and he might even know what Varys has gathered about DS -- no ships can come anywhere near DS and leave.

We don't really know whether he believes that stuff or whether he just uses this claim as excuse when he talks to Cat. We don't know of any concrete plans of Cersei's to kill Renly - and I daresay she wouldn't have even tried if Renly had approached Cersei to offer her his men to prevent his installation as regent.

But he saved his life by leaving court - there was no need to crown himself afterwards.

31 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

How anyone could construe leaving the capital as treason (unless it was a predetermined judgment)? Going home to SE is not a crime.

That is not that difficult. Think of how people react during a troubled/contested succession. There are potential traitors everywhere, and Cersei actually captured Ned's messenger who intended to deliver a treasonous letter to Stannis. It isn't far-fetched that Renly running away indicates he was part of the entire Stannis-Ned cabal.

Even without that - powerful royals refusing the acknowledge the new king and attending the old king's funeral would be suspicious in any scenario.

31 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

Well we know the answer for that when Joffrey basically anoints nearly everyone in the realm a traitor, including Renly and the Tyrells, unless they come rush to bend the knee at once. Even Roose knows an invitation from power works best (iron fist, velvet glove). Most of these people aren't even in the capital when the death occurs, so they are being lumped in with your "traitors."

That is true - and this is certainly over the top and problematic for people like the Tyrells and Martells, not to mention the Stormlords and some Vale lords.

But we should also not make the mistake of reading this as the final word on the matter. Joffrey made his peace with the Tyrells later, and the Arryns and their bannermen were welcomed back into the King's Peace just as the Dornishmen were. This was more a show than a policy that had teeth.

It was stupid in part, but it also helped to force people to show their true colors.

31 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

Renly staying with a king who hates him, is itching to attaint him, and ruled over by a mother who wants him dead? Folly

I'm not saying he should have stayed necessarily. But what about going home, calling his banners, and getting back to oust Cersei and her regency government? Without making himself king.

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2 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

We don't really know whether he believes that stuff or whether he just uses this claim as excuse when he talks to Cat. We don't know of any concrete plans of Cersei's to kill Renly - and I daresay she wouldn't have even tried if Renly had approached Cersei to offer her his men to prevent his installation as regent.

He told Ned before he told Cat that the Lannisters, specifically Cersei, were a threat to himself and Ned.

2 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

But he saved his life by leaving court - there was no need to crown himself afterwards.

What was he gonna do then? Return to the capital to kneel to Joffrey and then die? Or was he going to chill in his castle that he's no longer entitled to because he's been attainted and marked for death? Sure he can rally the SL to him, but then he's just outnumbered and leaving a potential ally on the sidelines. 

2 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

That is not that difficult. Think of how people react during a troubled/contested succession. There are potential traitors everywhere, and Cersei actually captured Ned's messenger who intended to deliver a treasonous letter to Stannis. It isn't far-fetched that Renly running away indicates he was part of the entire Stannis-Ned cabal.

He wasn't captured. He got killed in throne room. I've not seen mention of that letter post Ned giving it to Tomard but I might be misremembering.

2 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Even without that - powerful royals refusing the acknowledge the new king and attending the old king's funeral would be suspicious in any scenario.

That is true - and this is certainly over the top and problematic for people like the Tyrells and Martells, not to mention the Stormlords and some Vale lords.

But we should also not make the mistake of reading this as the final word on the matter. Joffrey made his peace with the Tyrells later, and the Arryns and their bannermen were welcomed back into the King's Peace just as the Dornishmen were. This was more a show than a policy that had teeth.

It was stupid in part, but it also helped to force people to show their true colors.

You don't have to read it as the final matter. You just need to look at the splintering it did in the first place. Significant alterations to current relationships / agreements or much favor had to be curried by the crown to make up for the awful mistake in the first place. 

2 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

I'm not saying he should have stayed necessarily. But what about going home, calling his banners, and getting back to oust Cersei and her regency government? Without making himself king.

So he's going to start a rebellion -- validating Cersei's fears mind you -- while leaving the most powerful players on the board available for his enemies? That's an even bigger folly. Tywin already has men in the field at this point. Jaime had won at RR and the Goldentooth at this point, so Renly has no idea if his SL army can even take KL without the Lannister armies taking him like they did Stannis against the walls.

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1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

 

But he saved his life by leaving court - there was no need to crown himself afterwards.

Joffrey told all Lords to come to the capital or lose their lands

From a drooping sleeve, heavy with gilded scrollwork, he drew a parchment, unrolled it, and began to read a long list of names, commanding each in the name of king and council to present themselves and swear their fealty to Joffrey. Failing that, they would be adjudged traitors, their lands and titles forfeit to the throne.
The names he read made Sansa hold her breath. Lord Stannis Baratheon, his lady wife, his daughter. Lord Renly Baratheon. Both Lord Royces and their sons. Ser Loras Tyrell. Lord Mace Tyrell, his brothers, uncles, sons. The red priest, Thoros of Myr. Lord Beric Dondarrion. Lady Lysa Arryn and her son, the little Lord Robert. Lord Hoster Tully, his brother Ser Brynden, his son Ser Edmure. Lord Jason Mallister. Lord Bryce Caron of the Marches. Lord Tytos Blackwood. Lord Walder Frey and his heir Ser Stevron. Lord Karyl Vance. Lord Jonos Bracken. Lady Shella Whent. Doran Martell, Prince of Dorne, and all his sons. So many, she thought as Pycelle read on and on, it will take a whole flock of ravens to send out these commands.
 
So Renly's in a pickle. His options are
 
  • Do nothing and hope that he is not judged to be a traitor, hope that the Tyrells and other lords don't make deals with the Crown
  • Run away to Essos and forfeit his lands
  • Go to the capital and hope he is spared

With those options many would stay and fight if they could get the support. Stannis could not get the support and while Renly could get the support in 298, there is no guarantee they'd wait around indefinitely. Renly had to rebel.

 

 

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