Why is Renly seemingly disliked in the community?

[Peach King]

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

But Mace was the general of his own troops, no? Of course he is using his sons in the command structure as well ... yet he decided to stay at home back in ACoK keeping Willas and Garlan at his side. And to be sure - cripples also can command troops from the rear. Tywin even had the dwarf command troops, and Tyrion later decided to command troops personal at the Blackwater. Willas Tyrell is kept behind deliberately by his father and/or refuses to participate in the military stuff of his own free will (we don't know yet).

Tyrion is not a cripple - he displays some pretty amazing athletic ability. He can do somersaults and even fight. Willas didn't even come for Margaery's wedding. That suggests that his injury is severe and limits him. 

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

They certainly could join with Stannis if they wanted to. There are reasons why they did not, of course, but Stannis does have a daughter and Mace has an unmarried son. I don't see a reason why Garlan couldn't succeed Mace as Lord of Highgarden while Willas becomes prince/king consort at Shireen's side. If some diplomatic genius had visited Highgarden on Stannis' behalf, being able to blame another party for Renly's murder, one certainly could see such an outcome.

The idea that things had to turn out the way they did just isn't the case.

I'm talking after they kill the Florents/other troops - they couldn't side with Stannis then. Willas wouldn't be king anyway, any son of Stannis' would displace him. Shireen is 10 years old and has greyscale.

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

BuThe betrothal would have stood if the Tyrell alliance hadn't been made by Littlefinger - especially after the Red Wedding when Sansa was the last heir of House Stark. Keep in mind that Tywin should have been able to take Stannis in the rear even without the Tyrell alliance. He was marching down south after he failed to cross the Trident on his own - and he had pretty much the same number of troops as Stannis. It would have been a bloodier battle, but chances are that Stannis wouldn't have won this fight, being trapped between the Lannisters and the defenders of the city.

Tywin also suggests the Tyrell alliance, not just LF. Everyone was for it except Cersei. As for the fight, there is still a chance Stannis would have won. 

Tywin would have the element of surprise. But his solders would be exhausted from the long march while Stannis’ soldiers would be well rested. 

It’s hard to say which way the battle would have swung.

But even if they win, the Lannisters still need men to fight Robb. And that's where the Tyrells come in.

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Tarly must have had a reason there. He is turning against the people of his brother-in-law. They all think it was Brienne, but who paid her off? Who made her do it? Stannis and/or Catelyn would be the main suspects. Even if Loras and the others assumed Stannis had nothing to do with the murder as such it was his attack on Storm's End that led to Renly's murder. He would share a huge chunk of the blame for that even if the people weren't believing he arranged it.

It's much more likely that Tarly knew from his employer that a Stannis alliance is off the table. Renly openly speaks about the Lannisters wanting to kill him and yet a Lannister alliance isn't out of the question. If the Tyrells loved Renly so much they wouldn't have twisted his image when they joined up with the Lannisters. They're motivated by politics, nothing more.

Tarly meets Brienne in AFFC and doesn't ask "Who paid you off?" he says he can't arrest her because it's out of his jurisdiction. 

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Stannis also doesn't punish the Florents and others for originally following Renly, does he? And again - the Tyrells are not eager to get into bed with the Lannisters. They have to approach them, making good offers, and they needed a really great diplomat to make this work. The idea that they would have sided with them without Littlefinger's skills as a diplomat is not exactly founded - especially not while there was still a big chance that Stannis might win. In the end, they helped Joffrey to win - which they only did because they got this great offer. If that had been lacking, they wouldn't have done anything.

Stannis is judged to be unforgiving by the whole of the realm. Whether it's true or not would be something else, but he does say that if he was Robert he would have punished the Targ loyalists after the Rebellion and he wants to scour the court clean after his ascension. And the Tyrells starved him during the Rebellion.

They're even less eager to join up with Stannis than the Lannisters. As for why they were waiting, I've put forward two theories.

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Unwin Peake could plot because only he resigned and went back home - we are talking about a scenario where Renly and Mace marshal an army, march to KL, dismiss the current regency government, send the Lannisters and their cronies back home, and install their own people in council and court.

This kind of thing did happen during the regency of many minor monarchs, but in the history of the real world as well as in Westeros (both during the minority of Aegon III as well as Jaehaerys I).

You mean "home" as in Casterly Rock? With its huge reservoirs of gold - gold which can be used for a shit ton of things, like buying sellswords, buying Houses off, etc? 

Random people didn't come and depose Aegon III's and Jaeherys I's real families and install themselves in the government.

And there's nothing stopping Joffrey from calling him and the rest of his family to KL once he becomes king.

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

That might be, but there would have still been 3-4 years until the boy would rule in his own right, more than enough time to convince him to see reason. Not to mention that the new rulers could take steps to take members of the royal family hostage - say, by marrying Cersei to Willas and Myrcella to Renly (or vice versa), making Tommen a squire of the Tyrells, marrying Margaery to Joffrey, etc. Thus they could have exerted power over Joffrey even after the regency time was over. Granted, given Joff's personality he may not have cared about any of that, but we cannot expect that they had a clear picture of his characters. Remember how Aegon III was brutalized by Unwin Peake and his master-at-arms - that also looks like stupidity considering the king would one day an adult and technically able to take his revenge, yet those people apparently didn't care about that prospect at all.

Vows made at swordspoint are not valid, and the Lannisters are very proud. Forced marriages will just ensure enmity between Joffrey and the Tyrells. Cersei and co. living also means they'll still be able to keep in contact with Joffrey, hell Joffrey might demand that his mother is kept close. That means Cersei would still exert influence over him.

Unwin Peake's support began to waver because of his power grabs, the same could happen to the Tyrells. If the North decided to involve themselves in the government, and other regions as well, the Tyrells might not be able to have a monopoly on it.

And you're right about Unwin Peake being stupid. But the Tyrells aren't. 

All kings are not made the same. Aegon III was able to convince people to follow his orders even before he reached the age of majority. So was Jaeherys I. Some are kinder, some are more mercurial than others. Aegon III was a nice kid. But we have the other kings like Aegon IV who executed whoever he felt like. 

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Oh, well, there you also can look to the Peake example - if Peake had remained in charge of the government until Aegon III's majority, marrying his daughter to him, etc. then nothing would have changed then. Lord Unwin was running the entire government, controlling the court and the Kingsguard and the king's own person. You can make a king effectively a prisoner at his own court. It is a risky business, of course, but it can be done. And with Renly/Mace doing that they would always have the alternative of making Renly king if Joffrey really started to become a loose cannon.

"It is a risky business" and that right there is the clincher. The Tyrells don't do risky, they play it safe most of the time. Why do all this, y'know instead of just marrying Joffrey to Margaery? That way they don't anger Tywin. That way there is no fear of reprisal. That way they can stay secure in their power.

You're saying Mace wasn't even fully into the idea of crowning Renly king. But he would have just totally backed this convoluted scheme, 100%.

Imagine Renly trying to convince him of this: "I have a great idea, let's take over the government! I'll be Regent. We'll control Joffrey by making him marry Margaery. What if he doesn't want to? Oh, don't worry about that, that won't happen. What if he wants revenge? I'm not going to kill any of them, silly! We'll just keep them all alive, including Tywin. What about Tywin's fearsome reputation? I'm sure he won't do anything. How can I be so sure? I guess I just am! And of course Joffrey will keep your appointments after he becomes king. Why shouldn't he?"

Idk, seems like a hard sell.

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

I mean, go back to AGoT where Littlefinger lays out his idea what Ned should do - support Joff against Stannis, control him and his family by marrying Sansa to Joff and Myrcella to Robb, and then, if Joff should become untractable as his majority grows nearer and Stannis has been dealt with, reveal the twincest, depose him, and put Renly on the throne.

Littlefinger is obviously speaking in bad faith here.

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

This kind of thing Renly could have done himself - either using the twincest once he had figured that out, or simply by arranging accidents for Joffrey. If Renly had ended up marrying Myrcella he could have strengthened his own claim enough to push aside Tommen easily enough by 'encouraging him' to become a septon or maester.

Seems dumb, why would he have made himself Regent just to kill the kids anyway?

I think I've said this already, but Renly being a secret traitor is not better than Renly openly being a traitor.

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Actually, because Joff wanted to blame somebody for Robert's death and Varys suggested Barristan Selmy.

Still shows a king has the power to overturn an age old institution if he just feels like it.

And right, Joffrey wanted someone to blame. Well he has a lot of people to blame here in this very situation. 

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Doesn't Tywin already have news about Renly's coronation when he mentions that? Even if I'm misremembering there then Tywin would have had news about Loras/Renly leaving, taking that as a hint that Renly would make trouble further down the road.

But the idea that Tywin would move against either Stannis or Renly if either had been shown up to support him and help him destroy the Starks/Tullys is pretty much ludicrous.

He hears of Renly's coronation, but Stannis hadn't declared. He was just gathering swords. But the thought that Stannis might be gathering these swords for king Joffrey doesn't even cross his mind.

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Overall, Dorne is certainly a bigger problem than the Baratheons. The latter are part of their in-laws/family but the Martells want vengeance for the murders of Elia and the children. They want to destroy House Lannister. With the Baratheons they could have reached some understanding. It is not a given that they have to go to war.

But they didnt want to reach an understanding - it's just treated as a given that they would be against each other.

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

But Tywin went to war with the Tullys/Riverlords because of Tyrion's abduction. Lysa nearly had his son killed. This is even a bigger slight that Tyrion's abduction.

The reason why they don't seem to push things with the Vale is that they stayed out of the war. That could be forgiven, not to mention the fact that continuing a war just out of spite isn't something that is very reasonable.

Good point, but Tywin does want Tyrion dead - that's why he places him in the vanguard. 

Even before anything happens, Joffrey wants Renly's head. And Cersei wants to deal with Stannis and him. Can Renly or Stannis be sure that Tywin can control the both of them? No they can't.

[Lord Varys]

10 minutes ago, Peach King said:

Tyrion is not a cripple - he displays some pretty amazing athletic ability. He can do somersaults and even fight. Willas didn't even come for Margaery's wedding. That suggests that his injury is severe and limits him. 

He is a joke as a soldier. Willas Tyrell has a minor leg injury. He isn't sitting in a wheelchair, he can walk although he does need a cane.

10 minutes ago, Peach King said:

I'm talking after they kill the Florents/other troops - they couldn't side with Stannis then. Willas wouldn't be king anyway, any son of Stannis' would displace him. Shireen is 10 years old and has greyscale.

Shireen is the only child Stannis will ever have by Selyse since the man no longer sleeps with the woman, and they could make a deal where Shireen is Stannis' anointed heir regardless whether he will ever have a son. Shireen no longer has greyscale - she had illness and then recovered. People do not think the sickness could come back and kill her.

10 minutes ago, Peach King said:

Tywin also suggests the Tyrell alliance, not just LF. Everyone was for it except Cersei. As for the fight, there is still a chance Stannis would have won.

No, Tywin never suggests that. He is stuck in the Riverlands and has nothing to do with that. It is an idea Tyrion and Cersei have after they learn about Renly's sudden death.

10 minutes ago, Peach King said:

But even if they win, the Lannisters still need men to fight Robb. And that's where the Tyrells come in.

If Tywin had won, the Freys and Boltons would do away with Robb, no? No need for the Tyrells as long as they stay out of the war. And they would never side with Robb after Cat is seen as complicit in the Renly murder.

10 minutes ago, Peach King said:

It's much more likely that Tarly knew from his employer that a Stannis alliance is off the table. Renly openly speaks about the Lannisters wanting to kill him and yet a Lannister alliance isn't out of the question. If the Tyrells loved Renly so much they wouldn't have twisted his image when they joined up with the Lannisters. They're motivated by politics, nothing more.

No, that is not 'much more likely'. Mace isn't a Bitterbridge and what little we know indicates that Tarly did this on his own. At best one can speculate that he did this with the support of Loras Tyrell, but Randyll Tarly isn't a man who would send word to Highgarden to ask Mace what to do.

And to be sure - we don't know any details about this. It is a garbled report by Varys - I'd guess that the Florent messenger tried to start some sort of uprising with the Florent men, and Tarly reacted harshly to stop the army from ripping itself apart. But that is just a guess. We have no details on all that.

10 minutes ago, Peach King said:

Stannis is judged to be unforgiving by the whole of the realm. Whether it's true or not would be something else, but he does say that if he was Robert he would have punished the Targ loyalists after the Rebellion and he wants to scour the court clean after his ascension. And the Tyrells starved him during the Rebellion.

We have no indication that Stannis dreams about murdering Mace and Paxter for what they did during the siege, nor is there any indication that the Tyrells fear Stannis. They don't like him - but nobody does, really.

10 minutes ago, Peach King said:

You mean "home" as in Casterly Rock? With its huge reservoirs of gold - gold which can be used for a shit ton of things, like buying sellswords, buying Houses off, etc? 

So what? If they were doing that, they would be breaking the King's Peace and would risk that the Crown punishes them harshly.

10 minutes ago, Peach King said:

Random people didn't come and depose Aegon III's and Jaeherys I's real families and install themselves in the government.

Renly Baratheon is the king's uncle, he is not a random person but one of the few entitled and expected to take a big role in any regency government during the king's minority.

10 minutes ago, Peach King said:

And there's nothing stopping Joffrey from calling him and the rest of his family to KL once he becomes king.

Again, that could be dealt with. And it isn't a given that Joff would care that much about his grandfather and mother after 3-4 years he spent with other people.

10 minutes ago, Peach King said:

Vows made at swordspoint are not valid, and the Lannisters are very proud. Forced marriages will just ensure enmity between Joffrey and the Tyrells. Cersei and co. living also means they'll still be able to keep in contact with Joffrey, hell Joffrey might demand that his mother is kept close. That means Cersei would still exert influence over him.

Joffrey would have no voice in this matter at all. And legal prattle is irrelevant if my daggers are at the throats of your family members, no?

10 minutes ago, Peach King said:

Unwin Peake's support began to waver because of his power grabs, the same could happen to the Tyrells. If the North decided to involve themselves in the government, and other regions as well, the Tyrells might not be able to have a monopoly on it.

Nobody would ask the North or anybody else. Renly Baratheon and his friends would staff the regency government, not anybody else.

10 minutes ago, Peach King said:

And you're right about Unwin Peake being stupid. But the Tyrells aren't. 

That depends - I'm sure Olenna Redwyne's great scheme to murder Joffrey Baratheon will eventually be revealed and she and many of her family will pay with their lives for this crime. This wasn't exactly a smart move, neither was the 'King Renly' idea. It just looks somewhat smart for the time being because nobody figured out what was going on.

10 minutes ago, Peach King said:

All kings are not made the same. Aegon III was able to convince people to follow his orders even before he reached the age of majority. So was Jaeherys I. Some are kinder, some are more mercurial than others. Aegon III was a nice kid. But we have the other kings like Aegon V who executed whoever he felt like.

To have power as a king you need power. If you don't control your court, your court controls you. And we are talking about scenario where Renly seized control at the court.

I mean, do you think Ned as regent would have allowed Joff to use the KG to beat up girls or shoot at the Kingslanders or force people to fight to the death? I don't think so. Or remember how Tywin treated his grandson. The idea that a king cannot be treated in this manner as an adult isn't well-founded - the king's power rests on the authority he wields over his people. But if his people aren't his people but his uncle's or grandfather's people then he is not going to be able to do much.

10 minutes ago, Peach King said:

"It is a risky business" and that right there is the clincher. The Tyrells don't do risky, they play it safe most of the time. Why do all this, y'know instead of just marrying Joffrey to Margaery? That way they don't anger Tywin. That way there is no fear of reprisal. That way they can stay secure in their power.

The Tyrells clearly didn't play it safe with the foolish Renly plan.

10 minutes ago, Peach King said:

You're saying Mace wasn't even fully into the idea of crowning Renly king. But he would have just totally backed this convoluted scheme, 100%.

Imagine Renly trying to convince him of this: "I have a great idea, let's take over the government! I'll be Regent. We'll control Joffrey by making him marry Margaery. What if he doesn't want to? Oh, don't worry about that, that won't happen. What if he wants revenge? I'm not going to kill any of them, silly! We'll just keep them all alive, including Tywin. What about Tywin's fearsome reputation? I'm sure he won't do anything. How can I be so sure? I guess I just am! And of course Joffrey will keep your appointments after he becomes king. Why shouldn't he?"

I'm just operating under the assumption that Renly wanted to be king. He wanted the crown and he convinced the Tyrells and their friends and bannermen to back him. If he could do that, he could have done something else, too. We have no reason to believe the Tyrells wanted Renly to be king ... rather we have good reason to believe Renly convinced them that he being king was a great idea.

Which makes them kind of stupid, to be honest.

10 minutes ago, Peach King said:

Littlefinger is obviously speaking in bad faith here.

Not at all. That is a pretty good plan and would have made life much easier for Littlefinger.

10 minutes ago, Peach King said:

Seems dumb, why would he have made himself Regent just to kill the kids anyway?

Only if things went bad ... or to prevent to being seen as a usurper. 'King Renly' is a bad idea, but a dutiful younger brother who first defends his nephew against evil men (including Stannis) to eventually inherit the throne after the king suffers an accident would make Renly look much better.

10 minutes ago, Peach King said:

I think I've said this already, but Renly being a secret traitor is not better than Renly openly being a traitor.

Why not?

10 minutes ago, Peach King said:

And right, Joffrey wanted someone to blame. Well he has a lot of people to blame here in this very situation. 

Well, Barristan was right there, the Lord Commander of the Kingsguard who did nothing when the king was gutted by a boar.

10 minutes ago, Peach King said:

He hears of Renly's coronation, but Stannis hadn't declared. He was just gathering swords. But the thought that Stannis might be gathering these swords for king Joffrey doesn't even cross his mind.

We don't know whether it crossed his mind or not, but he would have also had word that Lord Stannis hadn't shown up/reacted when Joffrey demanded him to do him homage, not to mention that Cersei may have informed about Stannis being an enemy who is after the crown even before that. She knew he was the guy who caused the whole Jon Arryn investigation.

10 minutes ago, Peach King said:

But they didnt want to reach an understanding - it's just treated as a given that they would be against each other.

I know, and I say that plot is just not developed very much. I mean, who wasn't surprised by the fact that Renly and Stannis wanted to kill each other? That came completely out of the left field in ACoK.

10 minutes ago, Peach King said:

Good point, but Tywin does want Tyrion dead - that's why he places him in the vanguard. 

If he wanted him dead, he would have long ago killed him. He doesn't care if he lives or dies, but he doesn't want to kill him. And Tywin makes it perfectly clear that he went to war because the abduction was a slight/attack on House Lannister - just as Lysa's 'trial' was. She and her son should have been punished for that.

10 minutes ago, Peach King said:

Even before anything happens, Joffrey wants Renly's head. And Cersei wants to deal with Stannis and him. Can Renly or Stannis be sure that Tywin can control the both of them? No they can't.

Is there any indication that Renly and Stannis truly feared Cersei or Joffrey on principle? I don't think so. Renly realizes he cannot stage a coup without Ned all by himself so he leaves, but it is quite clear that Renly thinks he is much more popular and well-loved than Joffrey or Cersei. And he is right there - he is more popular than both in KL and most of the Realm.

[Peach King]

10 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

He is a joke as a soldier. Willas Tyrell has a minor leg injury. He isn't sitting in a wheelchair, he can walk although he does need a cane.

But he didn't even come for the wedding. That probably means he can't travel long distances.

10 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Shireen is the only child Stannis will ever have by Selyse since the man no longer sleeps with the woman, and they could make a deal where Shireen is Stannis' anointed heir regardless whether he will ever have a son. Shireen no longer has greyscale - she had illness and then recovered. People do not think the sickness could come back and kill her.

Stannis is only 34. Stannis might even start having children out of spite. 

The Tyrells might still thinks Shireen's infectious - people like Val think she would be better off dead. Joining up with the Lannisters is just a much better alliance.

10 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

No, Tywin never suggests that. He is stuck in the Riverlands and has nothing to do with that. It is an idea Tyrion and Cersei have after they learn about Renly's sudden death.

You're right, I misremembered.

10 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

If Tywin had won, the Freys and Boltons would do away with Robb, no? No need for the Tyrells as long as they stay out of the war. And they would never side with Robb after Cat is seen as complicit in the Renly murder.

They only did away with Robb because he was fighting a losing war. They're opportunists and without the Tyrells now the Lannisters will be on the losing side. Nor do the Tyrells know about the broken betrothal or have any reason to expect there to be a Red Wedding.

Again, if the Tyrells loved Renly so much they wouldn't have basically made his whole legacy a lie to make him more palatable to the Lannisters. 

10 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

No, that is not 'much more likely'. Mace isn't a Bitterbridge and what little we know indicates that Tarly did this on his own. At best one can speculate that he did this with the support of Loras Tyrell, but Randyll Tarly isn't a man who would send word to Highgarden to ask Mace what to do.

And to be sure - we don't know any details about this. It is a garbled report by Varys - I'd guess that the Florent messenger tried to start some sort of uprising with the Florent men, and Tarly reacted harshly to stop the army from ripping itself apart. But that is just a guess. We have no details on all that..

2 months pass between Renly's death and the incident with Tarly killing the soldiers. More than enough time for a correspondence with Mace. If Tarly was acting independently that means he was deeply hurting the chances of a Tyrell alliance with Stannis. He could have been punished. 

10 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

We have no indication that Stannis dreams about murdering Mace and Paxter for what they did during the siege, nor is there any indication that the Tyrells fear Stannis. They don't like him - but nobody does, really.

Catelyn thinks he is without mercy. Everyone must know the story of Davos and his fingers. People don't tend to think Stannis is a very forgiving man.

10 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

So what? If they were doing that, they would be breaking the King's Peace and would risk that the Crown punishes them harshly.

Tywin did exactly that in A Game of Thrones.

Not to mention there's always Faceless men.

10 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Renly Baratheon is the king's uncle, he is not a random person but one of the few entitled and expected to take a big role in any regency government during the king's minority.

The random people I'm talking about are the Tyrells.

If Renly tries to take over Joffrey's regency for his own good, Joffrey is pretty much guaranteed to call him a liar, and the Lannisters are guaranteed to make sure he doesn't fall into his hands. 

10 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Again, that could be dealt with. And it isn't a given that Joff would care that much about his grandfather and mother after 3-4 years he spent with other people.

Not a given, no, but consider how Aegon III tossed Gaemon Palehair aside as soon as Viserys I came back. The Tyrells have only 3 years.

10 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Joffrey would have no voice in this matter at all. And legal prattle is irrelevant if my daggers are at the throats of your family members, no?

The Lannisters would rather go down fighting. And Joffrey is pretty much guaranteed to hate them after this.

Marrying the (adult) Lannisters while taking over the government is just silly.They can expect to find poison in their food. 

10 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Nobody would ask the North or anybody else. Renly Baratheon and his friends would staff the regency government, not anybody else.

Cregan Stark just blundered in from the North and started throwing his weight around in a Dance of Dragons. 

10 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

That depends - I'm sure Olenna Redwyne's great scheme to murder Joffrey Baratheon will eventually be revealed and she and many of her family will pay with their lives for this crime. This wasn't exactly a smart move, neither was the 'King Renly' idea. It just looks somewhat smart for the time being because nobody figured out what was going on.

Why would it be revealed? No one even suspects the Tyrells were behind it.

And the 'King Renly' plan was smart. They had the biggest army, they were only stopped by a shadow baby. 

10 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

To have power as a king you need power. If you don't control your court, your court controls you. And we are talking about scenario where Renly seized control at the court.

I mean, do you think Ned as regent would have allowed Joff to use the KG to beat up girls or shoot at the Kingslanders or force people to fight to the death? I don't think so. Or remember how Tywin treated his grandson. The idea that a king cannot be treated in this manner as an adult isn't well-founded - the king's power rests on the authority he wields over his people. But if his people aren't his people but his uncle's or grandfather's people then he is not going to be able to do much.

But there's always a risk. People aren't a monolith. If Joffrey turned out to be charismatic and if he commands attention, he may have won men over to his side. Aegon III and Daeron I and Jaeherys 1 could make decisions even before they were 16. There are also divided loyalties, like the goldcloaks. They are the crown's men. The Kingsguard are also loyal to the crown. 

And to be sure, once Joffrey reaches 16, he can order people about and he can arrange his own court. 

I found a precedent for someone rising up against their regent and imprisoning them once they reached the age of majority because they limited their power too much.

[11]After Lord Rickon Stark died in 121 AC, his brother Bennard served as regent for Rickon's son Lord Cregan Stark, until his coming of age in 124 AC. Bennard was slow to surrender his power to his nephew, and Cregan chafed at the limits imposed on him. In 126 AC, Lord Cregan rose up against his uncle, imprisoned Bennard and his sons, and took the rule of the north into his own hands.^[11]

10 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

The Tyrells clearly didn't play it safe with the foolish Renly plan.

I'm just operating under the assumption that Renly wanted to be king. He wanted the crown and he convinced the Tyrells and their friends and bannermen to back him. If he could do that, he could have done something else, too. We have no reason to believe the Tyrells wanted Renly to be king ... rather we have good reason to believe Renly convinced them that he being king was a great idea.

Which makes them kind of stupid, to be honest.

Yeah they don't want Renly as king, they want Margaery as queen. Marrying Margaery to Joffrey straight away is just better than making Renly regent and then forcing Joffrey to marry Margaery. 

It's not really stupid or risky. They would have pretty much won without the shadow baby. 'King Renly' was a better idea at that time than 'King Joffrey' - because Renly was willing to fill his court with Tyrells. Mace would get to be Hand, but in Joffrey's government Tywin would be Hand. 

10 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Not at all. That is a pretty good plan and would have made life much easier for Littlefinger.

He basically told Ned to marry his children to incest bastards and pass over the true heir - I don't think he was sincere at all.

10 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Only if things went bad ... or to prevent to being seen as a usurper. 'King Renly' is a bad idea, but a dutiful younger brother who first defends his nephew against evil men (including Stannis) to eventually inherit the throne after the king suffers an accident would make Renly look much better.

No it wouldn't lol. If the heirs started dying magically anyone would know it was Renly who killed them. It would be obvious. Like how everyone assumed Richard III killed the princes in the tower.

Practically no one hates Renly for being a usurper.

10 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Why not?

It's less strategically sound. Morally, it's not any better.

10 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Well, Barristan was right there, the Lord Commander of the Kingsguard who did nothing when the king was gutted by a boar.

And the Tyrells are right there, the ones who took control of the government over his wishes.

10 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

We don't know whether it crossed his mind or not, but he would have also had word that Lord Stannis hadn't shown up/reacted when Joffrey demanded him to do him homage, not to mention that Cersei may have informed about Stannis being an enemy who is after the crown even before that. She knew he was the guy who caused the whole Jon Arryn investigation.

Robb rebelled against Joffrey, but Tywin sfill offered him terms. Tywin just doesn't offer Stannis or Renly terms at all.

10 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

If he wanted him dead, he would have long ago killed him. He doesn't care if he lives or dies, but he doesn't want to kill him. And Tywin makes it perfectly clear that he went to war because the abduction was a slight/attack on House Lannister - just as Lysa's 'trial' was. She and her son should have been punished for that.

Is there any indication that Renly and Stannis truly feared Cersei or Joffrey on principle? I don't think so. Renly realizes he cannot stage a coup without Ned all by himself so he leaves, but it is quite clear that Renly thinks he is much more popular and well-loved than Joffrey or Cersei. And he is right there - he is more popular than both in KL and most of the Realm.

No indication except him saying the Lannisters have no mercy and that Cersei would oppose them.

[Trigger Warning]

3 hours ago, Peach King said:

 Tywin would have the element of surprise. But his solders would be exhausted from the long march while Stannis’ soldiers would be well rested. 

It’s hard to say which way the battle would have swung.

 

Completely nitpicky to snip from such a large post but I don't think this is up in the air at all. Tywin's numbers don't really matter, Stannis' men are strung out across a river assaulting a walled city after most of their fleet was annihilated in an inferno. The only thing reasonably stopping Stannis' men from breaking in a scenario where all this is happening and then heavy cavalry suddenly smash into their rear is authorial fiat. I'd imagine in the actual Battle of the Blackwater only a small percentage of the Tyrells and Lannisters were even engaged, Tywin's cavalry alone could rout an army under those circumstances. 

[Lord Varys]

16 hours ago, Peach King said:

But he didn't even come for the wedding. That probably means he can't travel long distances.

Nah, it means the Tyrell like a Tyrell back in Highgarden the same way the Starks like there to be a Stark at Winterfell. Or it could at least. But, you know, even Bran the Broken can ride, and as such he could also command armies as a grown man.

16 hours ago, Peach King said:

Stannis is only 34. Stannis might even start having children out of spite.

Stannis is married nearly 15 years by now and only produced one child and there is no indication he ever even tried with Selyse after Shireen.

16 hours ago, Peach King said:

The Tyrells might still thinks Shireen's infectious - people like Val think she would be better off dead. Joining up with the Lannisters is just a much better alliance.

You think the Tyrells think like some wildling woman? On what basis? With Stannis not making an offer it makes sense they would accept the Lannister offer ... but if he had made a similar offer and had beaten the Lannisters to it - as he could have, being at Storm's End - things may have gone very differently.

16 hours ago, Peach King said:

They only did away with Robb because he was fighting a losing war. They're opportunists and without the Tyrells now the Lannisters will be on the losing side. Nor do the Tyrells know about the broken betrothal or have any reason to expect there to be a Red Wedding.

Let's say Tywin wins with some more casualties - the Tyrells would not get Margaery as queen then, because they didn't help keep Joff on the throne. But Willas might get Cersei's hand, or Margaery Tommen's, or perhaps Jaime Margaery's. Something along those line. They would get some other good conditions. They would not side with Robb since they believe Catelyn was involved in Renly's murder. With Lysa not bestirring herself we still have a scenario where Freys and Boltons will want to do away with Robb, too.

Perhaps we don't get the Red Wedding as such, but more something like Tywin's idea - Robb being murdered among his army, suffering an accident, an arrow gone astray, etc.

Robb cannot hope to continue his war if the Lannisters secure the Iron Throne and defeat Stannis.

16 hours ago, Peach King said:

Again, if the Tyrells loved Renly so much they wouldn't have basically made his whole legacy a lie to make him more palatable to the Lannisters. 

They did that, because they got good terms - and they knew/believed the Lannisters had nothing to do with Renly's murder.

16 hours ago, Peach King said:

2 months pass between Renly's death and the incident with Tarly killing the soldiers. More than enough time for a correspondence with Mace. If Tarly was acting independently that means he was deeply hurting the chances of a Tyrell alliance with Stannis. He could have been punished. 

I'm not sure about the time line there - I'd assume that it is two months until Varys reports to Tyrion what transpired there. And as I said - Loras was there. If he supported Tarly in this, it makes sense it happened.

16 hours ago, Peach King said:

Catelyn thinks he is without mercy. Everyone must know the story of Davos and his fingers. People don't tend to think Stannis is a very forgiving man.

Sure, but the Redwynes and Tyrells were just doing their duty, fighting for their king during the Rebellion. I don't see Stannis punishing them for that. He might not favor them - which is something they would also not like - but there is no indication they fear that he would attack them for doing their duty.

16 hours ago, Peach King said:

Tywin did exactly that in A Game of Thrones.

Not to mention there's always Faceless men.

Because some Tully-Stark woman abducted his son. Cersei Lannister staged a coup to seize the regency, defying King Robert's last will. If Robert's brothers and others do the same to get rid of her this is pretty much fair game ... unless they were to kill her in the process of taking power from her. But that is not our scenario.

Nobody in Westeros seems to have ever employed the Faceless Men in anything serious.

16 hours ago, Peach King said:

The random people I'm talking about are the Tyrells.

Who would have been working with Lord Renly, King Robert's brother.

16 hours ago, Peach King said:

If Renly tries to take over Joffrey's regency for his own good, Joffrey is pretty much guaranteed to call him a liar, and the Lannisters are guaranteed to make sure he doesn't fall into his hands.

They could try, but you do know that they literally have no army in KL at the beginning of the war, right? So assume Renly raises only 10,000 Stormlanders, races up to KL in a matter of weeks, has his friends in the city - he is very popular there! - open the gates he can take over court immediately. Nobody in KL wants the Lannisters to run the government.

16 hours ago, Peach King said:

The Lannisters would rather go down fighting. And Joffrey is pretty much guaranteed to hate them after this.

So what? They can kill him, too, if it comes to this, as I repeatedly pointed out.

16 hours ago, Peach King said:

Marrying the (adult) Lannisters while taking over the government is just silly.They can expect to find poison in their food. 

Cersei would be a hostage at Highgarden in such a scenario.

16 hours ago, Peach King said:

Why would it be revealed? No one even suspects the Tyrells were behind it.

Not yet. But you do know that Sansa Stark and Littlefinger know it, right? Do you expect them to remain silent forever or not use that knowledge eventually?

16 hours ago, Peach King said:

And the 'King Renly' plan was smart. They had the biggest army, they were only stopped by a shadow baby. 

They could have had the same army or a nearly as powerful army without 'King Renly'. 'King Renly' has to usurp the throne and, perhaps, commit atrocities on the way to power.

All those 'the Lannisters will never except this' stuff you throw at me would still be valid if Joff/Tommen/Myrcella/Cersei escaped, got back into the West, and sent Faceless Men and other armies after Renly. And how long as ridiculous a usurper as Renly would have remained popular is a completely open question. As long as people with better claims around were alive - especially Cersei's children - Renly would have been in danger.

Stannis likely would have never been popular enough to really challenge Renly.

16 hours ago, Peach King said:

But there's always a risk. People aren't a monolith. If Joffrey turned out to be charismatic and if he commands attention, he may have won men over to his side. Aegon III and Daeron I and Jaeherys 1 could make decisions even before they were 16. There are also divided loyalties, like the goldcloaks. They are the crown's men. The Kingsguard are also loyal to the crown.

Of course there is a risk, but you see how powerful Peake was while he was running everything - and what power he had with the court even after he was stupid enough to step down. He ran things in a setting with multiple regents. Renly would be the sole regent, responsible to nobody else. And there are enough Tyrells around to staff the entire court with them.

And, frankly, if you look at Joff he isn't that much of a momma's boy, is he? He defies her on the Ned issue, he insists on his own rulings when he is allowed to dispense justice, etc. The Tyrells are very good at seducing people. So imagine Renly and his buddies take power away from Cersei, marry Joff to Margaery, have Loras hang around, too, take the effective hostages I mention, and really befriend Joffrey. He wouldn't turn into a nice guy that way, but he certainly could have ended up seeing the Tyrells as his family in those years.

Just look how well they were starting to work their magic with Tommen.

16 hours ago, Peach King said:

And to be sure, once Joffrey reaches 16, he can order people about and he can arrange his own court.

He can try - but if all his court were staffed with people not loyal to him he could do nothing.

16 hours ago, Peach King said:

I found a precedent for someone rising up against their regent and imprisoning them once they reached the age of majority because they limited their power too much.

Of course, that's a risky business, but it can be done. Kings can be just puppets who are ruled by other men. That can happen.

16 hours ago, Peach King said:

Yeah they don't want Renly as king, they want Margaery as queen. Marrying Margaery to Joffrey straight away is just better than making Renly regent and then forcing Joffrey to marry Margaery. 

There is no textual evidence that the Tyrells wanted Margaery to be queen until after the Renly plan. The Robert plan was Renly's plan, not a Tyrell plan, and we also have no evidence that Queen Margaery was a price Renly had to pay to get Tyrell support. Nor is there an indication that they wouldn't have supported him against the Lannisters if he hadn't crowned himself.

16 hours ago, Peach King said:

It's not really stupid or risky. They would have pretty much won without the shadow baby. 'King Renly' was a better idea at that time than 'King Joffrey' - because Renly was willing to fill his court with Tyrells. Mace would get to be Hand, but in Joffrey's government Tywin would be Hand.

Oh, there are many things that could have gone wrong with Renly's campaign besides the shadow baby incident. Imagine if Ned hadn't been executed and they had exchanged Jaime for Ned, restoring Eddard to power as Lord of Winterfell in exchange for Jaime's life and freedom. That way the Tullys and Starks could have fought with the Lannisters against the pretender Renly.

16 hours ago, Peach King said:

He basically told Ned to marry his children to incest bastards and pass over the true heir - I don't think he was sincere at all.

He was sincere - and he made it even clear to Ned why he could not possibly support Stannis (because the man would name a new council). That was the giveaway that he, Littlefinger, could never stand with Ned in this case. He overheard that, and he paid the price for it.

Littlefinger made a pretty good offer - use the fake heirs to get rid of the man unsuited to the crown (he is right that a King Stannis would mean war), and then install a rightful Baratheon heir who would also make a fine king.

If you look at Littlefinger then he was much better suited to rule with Ned than the Lannisters considering the degree he ingratiated himself with Ned throughout AGoT. He should have gotten his great seat and, once they have dealt with Joffrey, even Sansa's hand from Ned himself. The man is still a psychopath, but he could have been a Stark ally, not an enemy.

16 hours ago, Peach King said:

No it wouldn't lol. If the heirs started dying magically anyone would know it was Renly who killed them. It would be obvious. Like how everyone assumed Richard III killed the princes in the tower.

You mean like Robert thought Jon Arryn was murdered? Or how everybody realized the Tyrells murdered Joffrey? How Ramsay or the the Hunter chap who poisoned his brother were punished?

And to be sure - only Joffrey would need to die. They could give Tommen to the Faith or the Citadel before Joff's death, and Myrcella could be married to Renly or just be passed over because she is a girl.

16 hours ago, Peach King said:

Practically no one hates Renly for being a usurper.

Which is very odd and something I'd have liked to know about. But that's only true for his sycophants and while he is just a would-be usurper. One would have to wait and see how he would have been seen had he taken the Iron Throne over the bloody corpses of Stannis, Joffrey, Tommen, Myrcella, and Cersei.

I'd say that this certainly had the potential to tarnish his reputation severely.

16 hours ago, Peach King said:

It's less strategically sound. Morally, it's not any better.

I'm not arguing morals here, I'm simply arguing against that idea that Renly (1) had to claim the throne to 'defend himself', (2) for the idea that there were other ways to deal with the Lannisters than an attempted usurpation, and (3) that there were other ways to the Iron Throne than just an attempted violent usurpation.

My issues are with this ludicrous idea that Renly only did what he had to do, that his take on things was the only reasonable course if you are in his shoes. I contest that - especially in light of the fact that we have no clear picture how Renly reached his decisions and why he took the road he decided to take.

Why don't you also say Cersei just did what she had to when she seized the regency? That Maegor had to usurp the throne as well? That the Greens were forced to prevent Rhaenyra's rise to the throne, that Daemon Blackfyre and his sons and grandsons could only rise in rebellion/invade Westeros, etc.?

Hell, even Stannis wasn't forced to push his claim for the throne. This wasn't his 'duty', even if he truly had evidence for the twincest. He could have said that he was the rightful heir by law and decided to not push his claim because he didn't want to be king.

16 hours ago, Peach King said:

And the Tyrells are right there, the ones who took control of the government over his wishes.

I'm not sure Joffrey ever wanted his mommy to rule in his name, either? He doesn't really respect Cersei, does he?

16 hours ago, Peach King said:

Robb rebelled against Joffrey, but Tywin sfill offered him terms. Tywin just doesn't offer Stannis or Renly terms at all.

They consider terms after a battle has been fought. Which is what Tywin could have done with Stannis and Renly, too. He expected them to fight against Joffrey, he didn't plan an invasion of their lands without any provocation on their part.

16 hours ago, Peach King said:

No indication except him saying the Lannisters have no mercy and that Cersei would oppose them.

Again, in a setting where they are talking about a struggle for the regency. Renly knows Robert wants Ned to be the regent, and he also expects that Cersei is going to contest that. He urges Ned to start the struggle first, but there is no reason to believe Cersei would harm Ned if he had offered the regency to her, refusing to go along with Robert's last wishes. Vice versa, Renly has no reason to believe Cersei would go after him if he had not intended to challenge her for the regency - which is Renly's point there. He doesn't want Cersei in power and offers Ned his help to prevent that.

[Peach King]

9 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Nah, it means the Tyrell like a Tyrell back in Highgarden the same way the Starks like there to be a Stark at Winterfell. Or it could at least. But, you know, even Bran the Broken can ride, and as such he could also command armies as a grown man.

And none of this means they weren't behind the idea of Renly being king.

9 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Stannis is married nearly 15 years by now and only produced one child and there is no indication he ever even tried with Selyse after Shireen.

You think the Tyrells think like some wildling woman? On what basis? With Stannis not making an offer it makes sense they would accept the Lannister offer ... but if he had made a similar offer and had beaten the Lannisters to it - as he could have, being at Storm's End - things may have gone very differently.

Stannis tells Renly he plans on having a son. Neither he nor his wife is infertile either.

Greyscale might not be communicable, but this doesn't change that this is a bad match. And Stannis did make an offer. They refused.

9 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Let's say Tywin wins with some more casualties - the Tyrells would not get Margaery as queen then, because they didn't help keep Joff on the throne. But Willas might get Cersei's hand, or Margaery Tommen's, or perhaps Jaime Margaery's. Something along those line. They would get some other good conditions. They would not side with Robb since they believe Catelyn was involved in Renly's murder. With Lysa not bestirring herself we still have a scenario where Freys and Boltons will want to do away with Robb, too.

While I disagree that the Red Wedding or a variant would happened anyway if Tywin didn't secure the Tyrells, the main point is that Tywin would most probably enter into an alliance with them, which we agree on.

9 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

They did that, because they got good terms - and they knew/believed the Lannisters had nothing to do with Renly's murder.

They said he repented his sins and that he was a traitor and that he was on the side of the Lannisters.

Mace and Margaery might like him but only Loras loved him. The Tyrells were backing him for self serving reasons.

9 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

I'm not sure about the time line there - I'd assume that it is two months until Varys reports to Tyrion what transpired there. And as I said - Loras was there. If he supported Tarly in this, it makes sense it happened.

Agree to disagree about their motivations here.

9 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Sure, but the Redwynes and Tyrells were just doing their duty, fighting for their king during the Rebellion. I don't see Stannis punishing them for that. He might not favor them - which is something they would also not like - but there is no indication they fear that he would attack them for doing their duty.

We're talking about in-world expectations, what we the readers think or don't think does not matter. Everyone thinks Stannis is unforgiving and harsh. And Stannis did want to punish those who only did their duty -  lords Cafferen and Grandison. He also has a Florent wife, a rival house with claims on Highgarden.

Casterly Rock will rise, and not alone. Robert found it in him to pardon men who served King Aerys, so long as they did him fealty. Stannis is less forgiving. He will not have forgotten the siege of Storm's End, and the Lords Tyrell and Redwyne dare not. Every man who fought beneath the dragon banner or rose with Balon Greyjoy will have good cause to fear. Seat Stannis on the Iron Throne and I promise you, the realm will bleed.

9 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Because some Tully-Stark woman abducted his son. Cersei Lannister staged a coup to seize the regency, defying King Robert's last will. If Robert's brothers and others do the same to get rid of her this is pretty much fair game ... unless they were to kill her in the process of taking power from her. But that is not our scenario.

Nobody in Westeros seems to have ever employed the Faceless Men in anything serious.

Tywin is not going to think it's fair game if the Tyrells take over and plant themselves in KL. 

Arya did, so did Euron.

9 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Who would have been working with Lord Renly, King Robert's brother.

 Renly's popularity is not absolute.

9 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

They could try, but you do know that they literally have no army in KL at the beginning of the war, right? So assume Renly raises only 10,000 Stormlanders, races up to KL in a matter of weeks, has his friends in the city - he is very popular there! - open the gates he can take over court immediately. Nobody in KL wants the Lannisters to run the government.

Well no. At this point Tywin has two armies in the field. If he learns about Renly raising an army, Tywin can race back to KL to dash him beneath the walls. Nor can Renly just tell people to open the gates. It has to be arranged beforehand. We know the Antler men who were planning to open the gates for Stannis were found out and executed.

Renly didn't get his army because they were anti-Lannister. He got his army because he promised them wealth and lands and glory. The Tyrell marriage must also have given them the courage to declare (Stannis said the bolder ones declared for Renly). It's doubtful they would fight to put a Lannister on the throne anyway, or to depose all of the Lannisters.

And they mostly only began to hate them in earnest when they were starving and the Lannisters were feasting. Cersei they don't mind too much because she was queen when it was peaceful under Robert, Tyrion they hate, Joffrey was mostly an unknown.

9 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

So what? They can kill him, too, if it comes to this, as I repeatedly pointed out.

Cersei would be a hostage at Highgarden in such a scenario.

Why would they take over KL and do these things that's guaranteed to make Joffrey hate them and still put him on the throne.

Cersei would rather kill herself. 

Basically, there is no scenario where they take charge as Joffrey's regent and not expect him to hate them and to take his revenge.

Which is why its just better to get rid of all the Lannisters anyway.

9 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Not yet. But you do know that Sansa Stark and Littlefinger know it, right? Do you expect them to remain silent forever or not use that knowledge eventually?

That didn't happen, so it's a non argument.

9 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

They could have had the same army or a nearly as powerful army without 'King Renly'. 'King Renly' has to usurp the throne and, perhaps, commit atrocities on the way to power.

They don't just need an army, they need someone with a claim to the throne.

9 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

All those 'the Lannisters will never except this' stuff you throw at me would still be valid if Joff/Tommen/Myrcella/Cersei escaped, got back into the West, and sent Faceless Men and other armies after Renly. And how long as ridiculous a usurper as Renly would have remained popular is a completely open question. As long as people with better claims around were alive - especially Cersei's children - Renly would have been in danger.

Stannis likely would have never been popular enough to really challenge Renly.

If Renly declares himself king, he can fight the Lannisters in the field and hopefully destroy them. If the Lannisters flee, they cannot send Faceless Men after him, they have nothing to bargain with, and Casterly Rock would be besieged. Nor do there seem to be people willing to help them with a Lannister restoration like the Targs.

If Renly makes himself Joffrey's regent and keeps the Lannisters alive, he's opening himself up to potential backstabbings and skullduggery from all directions.

9 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Of course there is a risk, but you see how powerful Peake was while he was running everything - and what power he had with the court even after he was stupid enough to step down. He ran things in a setting with multiple regents. Renly would be the sole regent, responsible to nobody else. And there are enough Tyrells around to staff the entire court with them.

Joffrey loudly proclaims he doesn't need his uncle to save him when Renly makes his declaration. Renly fights the Lannisters with the help of the Tyrells, he takes over court, filling the council with Tyrells. He shuts Joffrey up with some threats. Margaery is betrothed to Joffrey.

Unwin Peake had overreached himself. Thaddeus Rowan and Manfryd Mooton were outraged that he had not seen fit to consult them; matters of such import rightly belonged to the council of regents. Lady Arryn sent a waspish note from the Vale. Kermit Tully declared the betrothal “presumptuous.” Ben Blackwood questioned the haste of it; Aegon should have been allowed half a year at least to mourn his little queen. A curt missive arrived from Cregan Stark in Winterfell, suggesting that the North might look with disfavor on such a match. Even Grand Maester Munkun began to waver. “Lady Myrielle is a delightful girl, and I have no doubt that she would make a splendid queen,” he told the Hand, “but we must be concerned with appearances, my lord. We who have the honor of serving with your lordship know that you love His Grace as if he were your own son, and do all you do for him and for the realm, but others may imply that you chose your daughter for more ignoble reasons…for power, or the glory of House Peake.”

Just like with Peake, people are angry, seeing it as the Tyrells overreaching themselves. They're already seen as "upjumped stewards". Since Joffrey is making too much noise, he's kept locked up. People begin to whisper. Maybe the Houses are concerned about  Robert's "son". They call for a Great Council. They come to KL. They take over.

Jaeherys I, Aegon III, Joffrey, all had people listen to them over their regents.

Jaeherys I had the KG backing him over the established regents.

Aegon III had Marston Waters listen to his orders when Unwin Peake was having his coup.

Ilyn Payne and the Goldcloaks follow Joffrey's order to execute Ned even though it contradicts the wishes of Cersei, the legal regent. 

9 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

And, frankly, if you look at Joff he isn't that much of a momma's boy, is he? He defies her on the Ned issue, he insists on his own rulings when he is allowed to dispense justice, etc. The Tyrells are very good at seducing people. So imagine Renly and his buddies take power away from Cersei, marry Joff to Margaery, have Loras hang around, too, take the effective hostages I mention, and really befriend Joffrey. He wouldn't turn into a nice guy that way, but he certainly could have ended up seeing the Tyrells as his family in those years.

Just look how well they were starting to work their magic with Tommen.

Joffrey is totally a momma's boy. Whenever he is in danger he calls out for his mother. 

They killed Joffrey because they didn't think he  would be as controllable as Tommen.

And Joffrey hates Renly. He won't accept being ruled over by him.

9 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

He can try - but if all his court were staffed with people not loyal to him he could do nothing.

Of course, that's a risky business, but it can be done. Kings can be just puppets who are ruled by other men. That can happen.

Doesn't seem like the Tyrells inspire much diehard loyalty - look at all the Reachmen turning to Stannis after Renly's death instead of following Tarly. 

No one really knows how Joffrey will turn out. He could be ruthless, kind, charismatic, smart - and it's this unknown quality which really makes Joffrey a danger. 

There's also a certain belief in "divine right" in Westeros: 

"I was taught that good men must fight evil in this world, and Renly's death was evil beyond all doubt. Yet I was also taught that the gods make kings, not the swords of men. If Stannis is our rightful king—"

The superstitious rank and file might be motivated by religious beliefs to obey the king's orders. The only Kingsguard to disobey the king, Jaime, is reviled.

9 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

There is no textual evidence that the Tyrells wanted Margaery to be queen until after the Renly plan. The Robert plan was Renly's plan, not a Tyrell plan, and we also have no evidence that Queen Margaery was a price Renly had to pay to get Tyrell support. Nor is there an indication that they wouldn't have supported him against the Lannisters if he hadn't crowned himself.

There's plenty of textual evidence that they crave power and overreach themselves. Kevan was at his wits end because the Tyrells kept demanding more and more. Mace already had a custom Hand chair made.

If they weigh the advantages, they would see that a clean transfer to the Lannisters would be much better. At that point no one knew what Stannis was doing. It was just between the Lannisters and the Starks. If the Tyrells jump in, they'd expect Renly to lay down as well. He can't fight a war all by himself.

We know how the Tyrells treat their friends based on how they treated Sansa - they used and dumped her. She was a liability once she could no longer give them Winterfell.

9 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Oh, there are many things that could have gone wrong with Renly's campaign besides the shadow baby incident. Imagine if Ned hadn't been executed and they had exchanged Jaime for Ned, restoring Eddard to power as Lord of Winterfell in exchange for Jaime's life and freedom. That way the Tullys and Starks could have fought with the Lannisters against the pretender Renly.

There is absolutely no reason for the Starks to fight for the Lannisters. Ned knows about the incest, he knows Cersei killed Robert, he thinks they tried to kill Bran, he thinks they killed Jon Arryn, they murdered his household - the list goes on. And the Lannisters are not going to restore Ned as Lord, the plan was for him to take the black.

9 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

He was sincere - and he made it even clear to Ned why he could not possibly support Stannis (because the man would name a new council). That was the giveaway that he, Littlefinger, could never stand with Ned in this case. He overheard that, and he paid the price for it.

Littlefinger made a pretty good offer - use the fake heirs to get rid of the man unsuited to the crown (he is right that a King Stannis would mean war), and then install a rightful Baratheon heir who would also make a fine king.

If you look at Littlefinger then he was much better suited to rule with Ned than the Lannisters considering the degree he ingratiated himself with Ned throughout AGoT. He should have gotten his great seat and, once they have dealt with Joffrey, even Sansa's hand from Ned himself. The man is still a psychopath, but he could have been a Stark ally, not an enemy.

He knows Ned is honour bound, and he suggests killing children and disregarding legality?

Even if he was serious, no it's not a good idea for Ned. Tywin would fight him. Stannis would fight him. Renly would fight him. And Ned would be caught in the crossfire.

9 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

You mean like Robert thought Jon Arryn was murdered? Or how everybody realized the Tyrells murdered Joffrey? How Ramsay or the the Hunter chap who poisoned his brother were punished?

And to be sure - only Joffrey would need to die. They could give Tommen to the Faith or the Citadel before Joff's death, and Myrcella could be married to Renly or just be passed over because she is a girl.

Just like how everyone assumed Unwin Peake killed Jaehaera. Because there was only one person who that action benefited - him.

So the hypothetical situation is that Renly takes over the court. Fights and kills Stannis in the name of the king, a king who insists that Renly looking out for his best interests is a lie. Stacks the council with his friends. The very same king who keeps insisting that he doesn't need Renly's help and that he hates Renly mysteriously dies.His brother is sent to the Faith (or insists he doesn't want to go and gets conked). Renly is very conveniently king. 

Just like in FAB, people would know what's going on.

9 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Which is very odd and something I'd have liked to know about. But that's only true for his sycophants and while he is just a would-be usurper. One would have to wait and see how he would have been seen had he taken the Iron Throne over the bloody corpses of Stannis, Joffrey, Tommen, Myrcella, and Cersei.

I'd say that this certainly had the potential to tarnish his reputation severely.

Well no one really seemed to care about him potentially killing Stannis. GRRM even said it would be a stretch to see him as a kinslayer.

And Renly can spin a narrative to justify himself once he takes the throne. He already believes the Lannisters murdered Ned Stark. He could further claim they killed Robert and Jon Arryn and that they were tyrants - the Vale already believes this, and the smallfolk uniformly hate the Lannisters in ACOK. There's also the incest story. Incest is seen as an abomination. If Renly takes the city like the Tyrells did, bringing food, he could be seen as a saviour. Everyone knows about Stannis' religion because he acknowledges the Lord of Light in the letters he sent out, and he has a red witch and was burning places of worship. Bam, Renly says Stannis is unfit to rule because of his foreign religion.

9 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

I'm not arguing morals here, I'm simply arguing against that idea that Renly (1) had to claim the throne to 'defend himself', (2) for the idea that there were other ways to deal with the Lannisters than an attempted usurpation, and (3) that there were other ways to the Iron Throne than just an attempted violent usurpation.

My issues are with this ludicrous idea that Renly only did what he had to do, that his take on things was the only reasonable course if you are in his shoes. I contest that - especially in light of the fact that we have no clear picture how Renly reached his decisions and why he took the road he decided to take.

Why don't you also say Cersei just did what she had to when she seized the regency? That Maegor had to usurp the throne as well? That the Greens were forced to prevent Rhaenyra's rise to the throne, that Daemon Blackfyre and his sons and grandsons could only rise in rebellion/invade Westeros, etc.?

Hell, even Stannis wasn't forced to push his claim for the throne. This wasn't his 'duty', even if he truly had evidence for the twincest. He could have said that he was the rightful heir by law and decided to not push his claim because he didn't want to be king.

It wasn't the only course. It's the course that made the most sense.

Making yourself regent to a king who despises you is frankly stupid. As for just plain rebellion, Tywin has two large armies in the field that can catch him beneath the walls.

Securing the Tyrells, the biggest alliance that can be made, made sense, and they probably won't be tempted by a half baked plan.

Why didn't the rebels put Viserys on the throne and install a council of regents? Robert didn't have to be king!

I do think Cersei did what she had to do when she seized the Regency. Ned would have let the truth out and she would have been executed if she did otherwise. She was also justified in killing/trying to kill Robert, Renly and Stannis - Robert abused her, and Renly and Stannis are dangers to her children.

Maegor didn't have to usurp because his life wasn't in danger.

As for the Greens, depends, Daemon is ruthless enough to kill the heirs anyway, but he probably wouldn't. Meanwhile we have actual confirmation that Cersei and Joffrey did want to strip the Baratheon bros of their power/kill them.

As for Daemon Blackfyre, he was xenophobic and sexist - his argument was that the court was filled with Dornishmen and women. Not very sympathetic.

So Stannis was just supposed to say the king was a bastard born of incest and then stay put in Dragonstone. And hope he isn't executed for treason. Right... 

Stannis had every right to rebel.

9 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

I'm not sure Joffrey ever wanted his mommy to rule in his name, either? He doesn't really respect Cersei, does he?

He does - he parrots Cersei's beliefs that cruelty is strength. When he stabs himself on the throne he cries out for Cersei. When Tyrion slaps him he says he wants Cersei.

9 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

They consider terms after a battle has been fought. Which is what Tywin could have done with Stannis and Renly, too. He expected them to fight against Joffrey, he didn't plan an invasion of their lands without any provocation on their part.

Stannis offered Renly terms before there was a battle. Catelyn offered Renly terms and Renly in turn offered her terms. Tyrion offered the Dornish terms.

But no one says to write to Stannis or Renly "Swear fealty to House Lannister and you will have a place on the Council and an advantageous marriage".

9 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Again, in a setting where they are talking about a struggle for the regency. Renly knows Robert wants Ned to be the regent, and he also expects that Cersei is going to contest that. He urges Ned to start the struggle first, but there is no reason to believe Cersei would harm Ned if he had offered the regency to her, refusing to go along with Robert's last wishes. Vice versa, Renly has no reason to believe Cersei would go after him if he had not intended to challenge her for the regency - which is Renly's point there. He doesn't want Cersei in power and offers Ned his help to prevent that.

Renly says if Cersei comes to power, it would be "too late, for the both of us". He doesn't have to support Ned. This isn't predicated on him supporting Ned.

[frenin]

1 hour ago, Peach King said:

Casterly Rock will rise, and not alone. Robert found it in him to pardon men who served King Aerys, so long as they did him fealty. Stannis is less forgiving. He will not have forgotten the siege of Storm's End, and the Lords Tyrell and Redwyne dare not. Every man who fought beneath the dragon banner or rose with Balon Greyjoy will have good cause to fear. Seat Stannis on the Iron Throne and I promise you, the realm will bleed.

Truth be told, this is just Petyr's boogeyman's story to coerce Ned, none of the mentioned lords ever feared or mentioned even Stannis and if the Tyrells are weary it has more to do with crazy Selyse being the wife.

Stannis himself doesn't seem to resent the siege of Storm's End or any royalist in particular.

[Peach King]

9 minutes ago, frenin said:

Truth be told, this is just Petyr's boogeyman's story to coerce Ned, none of the mentioned lords ever feared or mentioned even Stannis and if the Tyrells are weary it has more to do with crazy Selyse being the wife.

Stannis himself doesn't seem to resent the siege of Storm's End or any royalist in particular.

“My brother had a gift for inspiring loyalty. Even in his foes. At Summerhall he won three battles in a single day, and brought Lords Grandison and Cafferen back to Storm’s End as prisoners. He hung their banners in the hall as trophies. Cafferen’s white fawns were spotted with blood and Grandison’s sleeping lion was torn near in two. Yet they would sit beneath those banners of a night, drinking and feasting with Robert. He even took them hunting. ‘These men meant to deliver you to Aerys to be burned,’ I told him after I saw them throwing axes in the yard. ‘You should not be putting axes in their hands.’ Robert only laughed. I would have thrown Grandison and Cafferen into a dungeon, but he turned them into friends.

 

For such crimes there must be justice. Starting with Cersei and her abominations. But only starting. I mean to scour that court clean. As Robert should have done, after the Trident. Ser Barristan once told me that the rot in King Aerys’s reign began with Varys. The eunuch should never have been pardoned. No more than the Kingslayer. At the least, Robert should have stripped the white cloak from Jaime and sent him to the Wall, as Lord Stark urged. He listened to Jon Arryn instead. I was still at Storm’s End, under siege and unconsulted

[Lee-Sensei]

Renly is a bit of an ass, but so are all of the Baratheon brothers. I think that some people view him as incompetent when compared to Stannis and that colours their perception of him. Renly May have not been as skilled at fighting or commanding troops as Robert or Stannis, but he surrounded himself with good men. He was hedonistic, like a Robert. However, according to Catelyn he did it in moderation. He wasn’t as studious as Stannis, but I don’t think that he was dumb either. He also had Roberts charisma and social skills, with a better head for politicking.

[Lee-Sensei]

7 hours ago, Peach King said:

And none of this means they weren't behind the idea of Renly being king.

Stannis tells Renly he plans on having a son. Neither he nor his wife is infertile either.

Greyscale might not be communicable, but this doesn't change that this is a bad match. And Stannis did make an offer. They refused.

While I disagree that the Red Wedding or a variant would happened anyway if Tywin didn't secure the Tyrells, the main point is that Tywin would most probably enter into an alliance with them, which we agree on.

They said he repented his sins and that he was a traitor and that he was on the side of the Lannisters.

Mace and Margaery might like him but only Loras loved him. The Tyrells were backing him for self serving reasons.

Agree to disagree about their motivations here.

We're talking about in-world expectations, what we the readers think or don't think does not matter. Everyone thinks Stannis is unforgiving and harsh. And Stannis did want to punish those who only did their duty -  lords Cafferen and Grandison. He also has a Florent wife, a rival house with claims on Highgarden.

Casterly Rock will rise, and not alone. Robert found it in him to pardon men who served King Aerys, so long as they did him fealty. Stannis is less forgiving. He will not have forgotten the siege of Storm's End, and the Lords Tyrell and Redwyne dare not. Every man who fought beneath the dragon banner or rose with Balon Greyjoy will have good cause to fear. Seat Stannis on the Iron Throne and I promise you, the realm will bleed.

Tywin is not going to think it's fair game if the Tyrells take over and plant themselves in KL. 

Arya did, so did Euron.

 Renly's popularity is not absolute.

Well no. At this point Tywin has two armies in the field. If he learns about Renly raising an army, Tywin can race back to KL to dash him beneath the walls. Nor can Renly just tell people to open the gates. It has to be arranged beforehand. We know the Antler men who were planning to open the gates for Stannis were found out and executed.

Renly didn't get his army because they were anti-Lannister. He got his army because he promised them wealth and lands and glory. The Tyrell marriage must also have given them the courage to declare (Stannis said the bolder ones declared for Renly). It's doubtful they would fight to put a Lannister on the throne anyway, or to depose all of the Lannisters.

And they mostly only began to hate them in earnest when they were starving and the Lannisters were feasting. Cersei they don't mind too much because she was queen when it was peaceful under Robert, Tyrion they hate, Joffrey was mostly an unknown.

Why would they take over KL and do these things that's guaranteed to make Joffrey hate them and still put him on the throne.

Cersei would rather kill herself. 

Basically, there is no scenario where they take charge as Joffrey's regent and not expect him to hate them and to take his revenge.

Which is why its just better to get rid of all the Lannisters anyway.

That didn't happen, so it's a non argument.

They don't just need an army, they need someone with a claim to the throne.

If Renly declares himself king, he can fight the Lannisters in the field and hopefully destroy them. If the Lannisters flee, they cannot send Faceless Men after him, they have nothing to bargain with, and Casterly Rock would be besieged. Nor do there seem to be people willing to help them with a Lannister restoration like the Targs.

If Renly makes himself Joffrey's regent and keeps the Lannisters alive, he's opening himself up to potential backstabbings and skullduggery from all directions.

Joffrey loudly proclaims he doesn't need his uncle to save him when Renly makes his declaration. Renly fights the Lannisters with the help of the Tyrells, he takes over court, filling the council with Tyrells. He shuts Joffrey up with some threats. Margaery is betrothed to Joffrey.

Unwin Peake had overreached himself. Thaddeus Rowan and Manfryd Mooton were outraged that he had not seen fit to consult them; matters of such import rightly belonged to the council of regents. Lady Arryn sent a waspish note from the Vale. Kermit Tully declared the betrothal “presumptuous.” Ben Blackwood questioned the haste of it; Aegon should have been allowed half a year at least to mourn his little queen. A curt missive arrived from Cregan Stark in Winterfell, suggesting that the North might look with disfavor on such a match. Even Grand Maester Munkun began to waver. “Lady Myrielle is a delightful girl, and I have no doubt that she would make a splendid queen,” he told the Hand, “but we must be concerned with appearances, my lord. We who have the honor of serving with your lordship know that you love His Grace as if he were your own son, and do all you do for him and for the realm, but others may imply that you chose your daughter for more ignoble reasons…for power, or the glory of House Peake.”

Just like with Peake, people are angry, seeing it as the Tyrells overreaching themselves. They're already seen as "upjumped stewards". Since Joffrey is making too much noise, he's kept locked up. People begin to whisper. Maybe the Houses are concerned about  Robert's "son". They call for a Great Council. They come to KL. They take over.

Jaeherys I, Aegon III, Joffrey, all had people listen to them over their regents.

Jaeherys I had the KG backing him over the established regents.

Aegon III had Marston Waters listen to his orders when Unwin Peake was having his coup.

Ilyn Payne and the Goldcloaks follow Joffrey's order to execute Ned even though it contradicts the wishes of Cersei, the legal regent. 

Joffrey is totally a momma's boy. Whenever he is in danger he calls out for his mother. 

They killed Joffrey because they didn't think he  would be as controllable as Tommen.

And Joffrey hates Renly. He won't accept being ruled over by him.

Doesn't seem like the Tyrells inspire much diehard loyalty - look at all the Reachmen turning to Stannis after Renly's death instead of following Tarly. 

No one really knows how Joffrey will turn out. He could be ruthless, kind, charismatic, smart - and it's this unknown quality which really makes Joffrey a danger. 

There's also a certain belief in "divine right" in Westeros: 

"I was taught that good men must fight evil in this world, and Renly's death was evil beyond all doubt. Yet I was also taught that the gods make kings, not the swords of men. If Stannis is our rightful king—"

The superstitious rank and file might be motivated by religious beliefs to obey the king's orders. The only Kingsguard to disobey the king, Jaime, is reviled.

There's plenty of textual evidence that they crave power and overreach themselves. Kevan was at his wits end because the Tyrells kept demanding more and more. Mace already had a custom Hand chair made.

If they weigh the advantages, they would see that a clean transfer to the Lannisters would be much better. At that point no one knew what Stannis was doing. It was just between the Lannisters and the Starks. If the Tyrells jump in, they'd expect Renly to lay down as well. He can't fight a war all by himself.

We know how the Tyrells treat their friends based on how they treated Sansa - they used and dumped her. She was a liability once she could no longer give them Winterfell.

There is absolutely no reason for the Starks to fight for the Lannisters. Ned knows about the incest, he knows Cersei killed Robert, he thinks they tried to kill Bran, he thinks they killed Jon Arryn, they murdered his household - the list goes on. And the Lannisters are not going to restore Ned as Lord, the plan was for him to take the black.

He knows Ned is honour bound, and he suggests killing children and disregarding legality?

Even if he was serious, no it's not a good idea for Ned. Tywin would fight him. Stannis would fight him. Renly would fight him. And Ned would be caught in the crossfire.

Just like how everyone assumed Unwin Peake killed Jaehaera. Because there was only one person who that action benefited - him.

So the hypothetical situation is that Renly takes over the court. Fights and kills Stannis in the name of the king, a king who insists that Renly looking out for his best interests is a lie. Stacks the council with his friends. The very same king who keeps insisting that he doesn't need Renly's help and that he hates Renly mysteriously dies.His brother is sent to the Faith (or insists he doesn't want to go and gets conked). Renly is very conveniently king. 

Just like in FAB, people would know what's going on.

Well no one really seemed to care about him potentially killing Stannis. GRRM even said it would be a stretch to see him as a kinslayer.

And Renly can spin a narrative to justify himself once he takes the throne. He already believes the Lannisters murdered Ned Stark. He could further claim they killed Robert and Jon Arryn and that they were tyrants - the Vale already believes this, and the smallfolk uniformly hate the Lannisters in ACOK. There's also the incest story. Incest is seen as an abomination. If Renly takes the city like the Tyrells did, bringing food, he could be seen as a saviour. Everyone knows about Stannis' religion because he acknowledges the Lord of Light in the letters he sent out, and he has a red witch and was burning places of worship. Bam, Renly says Stannis is unfit to rule because of his foreign religion.

It wasn't the only course. It's the course that made the most sense.

Making yourself regent to a king who despises you is frankly stupid. As for just plain rebellion, Tywin has two large armies in the field that can catch him beneath the walls.

Securing the Tyrells, the biggest alliance that can be made, made sense, and they probably won't be tempted by a half baked plan.

Why didn't the rebels put Viserys on the throne and install a council of regents? Robert didn't have to be king!

I do think Cersei did what she had to do when she seized the Regency. Ned would have let the truth out and she would have been executed if she did otherwise. She was also justified in killing/trying to kill Robert, Renly and Stannis - Robert abused her, and Renly and Stannis are dangers to her children.

Maegor didn't have to usurp because his life wasn't in danger.

As for the Greens, depends, Daemon is ruthless enough to kill the heirs anyway, but he probably wouldn't. Meanwhile we have actual confirmation that Cersei and Joffrey did want to strip the Baratheon bros of their power/kill them.

As for Daemon Blackfyre, he was xenophobic and sexist - his argument was that the court was filled with Dornishmen and women. Not very sympathetic.

So Stannis was just supposed to say the king was a bastard born of incest and then stay put in Dragonstone. And hope he isn't executed for treason. Right... 

Stannis had every right to rebel.

He does - he parrots Cersei's beliefs that cruelty is strength. When he stabs himself on the throne he cries out for Cersei. When Tyrion slaps him he says he wants Cersei.

Stannis offered Renly terms before there was a battle. Catelyn offered Renly terms and Renly in turn offered her terms. Tyrion offered the Dornish terms.

But no one says to write to Stannis or Renly "Swear fealty to House Lannister and you will have a place on the Council and an advantageous marriage".

Renly says if Cersei comes to power, it would be "too late, for the both of us". He doesn't have to support Ned. This isn't predicated on him supporting Ned.

I can’t co-sign this. Robert abused Cersei and Cersei abused his. The Baratheon brothers were only a danger to her children, because she cheated on a Robert with her twin brother and tried to pass her bastards off as his kids so that she could steal the Baratheons lands and titles, because she’s power hungry. She created that situation.

[Peach King]

34 minutes ago, Lee-Sensei said:

I can’t co-sign this. Robert abused Cersei and Cersei abused his. The Baratheon brothers were only a danger to her children, because she cheated on a Robert with her twin brother and tried to pass her bastards off as his kids so that she could steal the Baratheons lands and titles, because she’s power hungry. She created that situation.

You really had to quote the whole thing?

Robert's abuse was a lot more brutal than Cersei's - he raped her and left bruises all over her body. I know that royals have to have heirs, yada yada yada, but Robert wouldn't even stop drinking before he had sex with her, when he knew it was hurting her. And continued even after they had three children.

So I can't really blame Cersei for not wanting to have his kids. 

[Orm]

21 minutes ago, Peach King said:

Robert's abuse was a lot more brutal than Cersei's - he raped her and left bruises all over her body. I know that royals have to have heirs, yada yada yada, but Robert wouldn't even stop drinking before he had sex with her, when he knew it was hurting her.

Are you really gonna argue about the overall victim of the Robert/Cersei marriage.....  and say it was Cersei? Even after she killed him?

 

24 minutes ago, Peach King said:

And continued even after they had three children.

Wait, didn't he leave her alone after the "kids" he thought he had? 

 

25 minutes ago, Peach King said:

So I can't really blame Cersei for not wanting to have his kids.

Not saying abuse is ok or anything......... But any or most women in her position which she consciously chose, would try to better her position instead of sabotaging it beyond repair........

And that's why this entire WOT5K fiasco wouldn't have happened if Robert married anyone but Cersei.......

[Peach King]

51 minutes ago, Orm said:

Are you really gonna argue about the overall victim of the Robert/Cersei marriage.....  and say it was Cersei? Even after she killed him?

Cersei - hits Robert like once, makes fun of him I guess???

Robert - Rapes Cersei for years, hits her which obviously has much more of an effect given his weight/size

Yeah, really hard to see the victim here....

And Cersei killed Robert cause he would have killed her and the kids if he found out about the incest.

58 minutes ago, Orm said:

Wait, didn't he leave her alone after the "kids" he thought he had? 

 Cersei says it lessened over the years, and she would just jerk him off.

1 hour ago, Orm said:

Not saying abuse is ok or anything......... But any or most women in her position which she consciously chose, would try to better her position instead of sabotaging it beyond repair........

And that's why this entire WOT5K fiasco wouldn't have happened if Robert married anyone but Cersei.......

Cersei was willing to give Robert a chance until he moaned "Lyanna" to her in bed.

[frenin]

9 hours ago, Peach King said:

My brother had a gift for inspiring loyalty. Even in his foes. At Summerhall he won three battles in a single day, and brought Lords Grandison and Cafferen back to Storm’s End as prisoners. He hung their banners in the hall as trophies. Cafferen’s white fawns were spotted with blood and Grandison’s sleeping lion was torn near in two. Yet they would sit beneath those banners of a night, drinking and feasting with Robert. He even took them hunting. ‘These men meant to deliver you to Aerys to be burned,’ I told him after I saw them throwing axes in the yard. ‘You should not be putting axes in their hands.’ Robert only laughed. I would have thrown Grandison and Cafferen into a dungeon, but he turned them into friends.

Stannis isn't talking about resenting them tho, he's arguing that you shouldn't give your enemies weapons. Which it's true from his perspective, if you can't make an enemy love you, you better throw him in a cell. But Stannis is talking from war perspective.

 

9 hours ago, Peach King said:

For such crimes there must be justice. Starting with Cersei and her abominations. But only starting. I mean to scour that court clean. As Robert should have done, after the Trident. Ser Barristan once told me that the rot in King Aerys’s reign began with Varys. The eunuch should never have been pardoned. No more than the Kingslayer. At the least, Robert should have stripped the white cloak from Jaime and sent him to the Wall, as Lord Stark urged. He listened to Jon Arryn instead. I was still at Storm’s End, under siege and unconsulted

How what the man pretends to do in King's Landing is an evidence that what he was going to do all along had he seized the Throne from the very beginning. If anything this reinforces my point, Petyr knows that Stannis wants to get rid of him and is telling Ned bs to place whomever in power but Stannis.

 

[Lee-Sensei]

2 hours ago, Peach King said:

You really had to quote the whole thing?

Robert's abuse was a lot more brutal than Cersei's - he raped her and left bruises all over her body. I know that royals have to have heirs, yada yada yada, but Robert wouldn't even stop drinking before he had sex with her, when he knew it was hurting her. And continued even after they had three children.

So I can't really blame Cersei for not wanting to have his kids. 

1) Yes. It was quicker that way.

2) I’m not getting into that debate, but Cersei hit him too. She chipped his tooth and ultimately, she murdered him. I’d say that she was the more violent on in that relationship. She had no regrets either, unlike Robert.

3) They didn’t have three children. It was a massive case of paternity fraud. She aborted his children, tried to kill all of his bastards, threatened to murder his daughter if he brought her to Kings Landing (while raising her bastards in his home and passing them off as his children) then tried to kill off his brothers after killing him and trying to wipe out his children so that she could steal everything that his family owned. Robert was far from a perfect husband, but a Cersei was the worst. I honestly can’t think of a worse wife in ASOIAF than her.

[Orm]

13 minutes ago, Peach King said:

Cersei - hits Robert like once, makes fun of him I guess???

She gets away with hitting the king in public............. Fucks her brother on wedding day, aborts her husband's kid, gives him no chance to repair their relationship ( Robert asks her to go hunting with him but she refuses to fuck her brother), passes her bastards as Robert's heirs, Threatens and kills Robert's bastards, rapes Robert and drinks his semen as a sort of weird fantasy as swallowing his babies etc etc

You see Cersei fucked Robert literally and figuratively in every way possible...........

16 minutes ago, Peach King said:

Robert - Rapes Cersei for years

You know there was research done which said that sexual harassment is 90% dependent on how attractive the man is........ And since Robert when he married Cersei is described as 'Something out of a maiden's fantasy' then it's hard to take Cersei seriously cause,

a) Cersei has a very questionable sanity and deep spite against Robert.

b) Jaime doesn't mention it and Barristan out right admits Rob was a good man.

c) A guy who rapes doesn't talk about a gals eyes and drowning in them.(AGOT, Robert-Ned convo)

29 minutes ago, Peach King said:

Yeah, really hard to see the victim here....

No actually.......... Robert had the worst luck to marry Cersei..........

 

31 minutes ago, Peach King said:

And Cersei killed Robert cause he would have killed her and the kids if he found out about the incest.

Should have avoided the incest and treason in the first place, Shouldn't She?

 

33 minutes ago, Peach King said:

Cersei says it lessened over the years, and she would just jerk him off.

So he did stop...........

 

33 minutes ago, Peach King said:

hits her which obviously has much more of an effect given his weight/size

The two times we are given the circumstance where he hits her....... I have no sympathy for her.......... Kinda want to know the circumstances of "other times" were........

 

36 minutes ago, Peach King said:

Cersei was willing to give Robert a chance until he moaned "Lyanna" to her in bed

Yea Right............. Dick move on Roberts part I agree..........Totally justifies the things she does to him.....

[Peach King]

21 minutes ago, frenin said:

Stannis isn't talking about resenting them tho, he's arguing that you shouldn't give your enemies weapons. Which it's true from his perspective, if you can't make an enemy love you, you better throw him in a cell. But Stannis is talking from war perspective.

I disagree - I think he is resentful of the fact they fought for Aerys and wants them punished for that reason. Stannis takes things personally, when he learns of Renly's crowning he calls him a thief, and says he stole Storm's End, he moans about Robert years after his death, he resents Ned because he thinks he should have been Hand instead of him, and etc. There's also him trying to catapult traitors during the Siege of Storms End. He's better in canon, he pardoned the lords who joined Renly, and does not invade Craw Island for revenge, but people still think he is harsh and merciless.

22 minutes ago, frenin said:

How what the man pretends to do in King's Landing is an evidence that what he was going to do all along had he seized the Throne from the very beginning. If anything this reinforces my point, Petyr knows that Stannis wants to get rid of him and is telling Ned bs to place whomever in power but Stannis.

Don't get what you're saying in the first half, but Ned doesn't call bullshit on the idea of Stannis punishing everyone, so that's something. 

[Lee-Sensei]

38 minutes ago, Peach King said:

Cersei - hits Robert like once, makes fun of him I guess???

Robert - Rapes Cersei for years, hits her which obviously has much more of an effect given his weight/size

Yeah, really hard to see the victim here....

And Cersei killed Robert cause he would have killed her and the kids if he found out about the incest.

 Cersei says it lessened over the years, and she would just jerk him off.

Cersei was willing to give Robert a chance until he moaned "Lyanna" to her in bed.

1) According to Cersei, Robert hit her a time or two. One time he hit her for insulting his manhood. Obviously, that’s not justified. The other time he hit her, was when she threatened to murder his daughter.

2) Then she shouldn’t have married him and tried to pass off her bastards as his while killing off his actual children. She wanted the power and prestige that came with being the Queen without the responsibility.

3) Cersei only gave Robert a chance in the show. In the show, Robert was primarily to blame for the problems in their marriage. At least early on. In the books, she had sex with a Jaime the morning of their wedding.

[Peach King]

2 minutes ago, Lee-Sensei said:

1) Yes. It was quicker that way.

2) I’m not getting into that debate, but Cersei hit him too. She chipped his tooth and ultimately, she murdered him. I’d say that she was the more violent on in that relationship. She had no regrets either, unlike Robert.

3) They didn’t have three children. It was a massive case of paternity fraud. She aborted his children, tried to kill all of his bastards, threatened to murder his daughter if he brought her to Kings Landing (while raising her bastards in his home and passing them off as his children) then tried to kill off his brothers after killing him and trying to wipe out his children so that she could steal everything that his family owned. Robert was far from a perfect husband, but a Cersei was the worst. I honestly can’t think of a worse wife in ASOIAF than her.

1) Hm.

2) She wasn't more violent - Robert was explicitly more violent.

3) Cause he was a terrible husband who raped her. Who knows what she would have done if she married Rhaegar. People are really discounting the impact of sexual violence here.

4 minutes ago, Orm said:

She gets away with hitting the king in public............. Fucks her brother on wedding day, aborts her husband's kid, gives him no chance to repair their relationship ( Robert asks her to go hunting with him but she refuses to fuck her brother), passes her bastards as Robert's heirs, Threatens and kills Robert's bastards, rapes Robert and drinks his semen as a sort of weird fantasy as swallowing his babies etc etc

She rapes Robert??? When did she rape Robert?

7 minutes ago, Orm said:

You know there was research done which said that sexual harassment is 90% dependent on how attractive the man is........ And since Robert when he married Cersei is described as 'Something out of a maiden's fantasy' then it's hard to take Cersei seriously cause,

a) Cersei has a very questionable sanity and deep spite against Robert.

b) Jaime doesn't mention it and Barristan out right admits Rob was a good man.

c) A guy who rapes doesn't talk about a gals eyes and drowning in them.(AGOT, Robert-Ned convo)

No actually.......... Robert had the worst luck to marry Cersei..........

Oh so Cersei is lying about being raped now. The scene where she does the very same thing to Taena in an effort to replicate the trauma showed its not her delusion - it happened. 

Jaime didn't know about it because Cersei hid her bruises from him. Barristan wouldn't know either. 

9 minutes ago, Orm said:

Should have avoided the incest and treason in the first place, Shouldn't She?

 

So he did stop...........

 

The two times we are given the circumstance where he hits her....... I have no sympathy for her.......... Kinda want to know the circumstances of "other times" were........

 

Yea Right............. Dick move on Roberts part I agree..........Totally justifies the things she does to him.....

He didn't stop. He was too drunk to know what was happening and so Cersei could get away with blowjobs and handjobs.

Even Ned is shocked by Robert's behaviour and has sympathy for Cersei. 

Not only that, he publicly humiliates her and whores around and gropes girls in front of her. 

[Peach King]

16 minutes ago, Lee-Sensei said:

1) According to Cersei, Robert hit her a time or two. One time he hit her for insulting his manhood. Obviously, that’s not justified. The other time he hit her, was when she threatened to murder his daughter.

2) Then she shouldn’t have married him and tried to pass off her bastards as his while killing off his actual children. She wanted the power and prestige that came with being the Queen without the responsibility.

3) Cersei only gave Robert a chance in the show. In the show, Robert was primarily to blame for the problems in their marriage. At least early on. In the books, she had sex with a Jaime the morning of their wedding.

1) You're right.

2) Cersei was pretty much raised to be a brood mare by Tywin. It's unlikely she could have refused the marriage. 

3) I meant she may have been willing to have children with him. She would always cheat on him.

Anyway I'm kinda sick of this topic.