Why is Renly seemingly disliked in the community?

[Bloodraven’s Spider]

We talking about as readers not as people living in Westeros. We know the Twincest is real. 

Stannis being “autoexiled” to the north is one way of putting. Or you can say it was his last chance to rally some lords to his cause. 

Renly clearly isn’t disliked if everyone in here is jumping to protect the guy...

[Angel Eyes]

Doesn't the analogy that the largest army wins not work? Robert had a smaller army than Rhaegar (35,000 to 40,000), yet won.

Admittedly, Rhaegar was an idiot. He had the high ground, yet chose to have his forces cross the river to battle Robert's. He underestimated Robert's power, and Robert busted him open like a tin can.

[Tikhunt]

29 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

Doesn't the analogy that the largest army wins not work? Robert had a smaller army than Rhaegar (35,000 to 40,000), yet won.

Admittedly, Rhaegar was an idiot. He had the high ground, yet chose to have his forces cross the river to battle Robert's. He underestimated Robert's power, and Robert busted him open like a tin can.

35,000 to 40,000 isn't a large difference in manpower

[Lord Varys]

5 hours ago, The Merling King said:

The Baratheon dynasty is one king deep, do they have a clear succession plan written in law? Obviously the Lannisters lean towards Salic law, primogeniture because its in there favor and the Targaryens did set some precedents, but they also showed that the succession of the the iron throne can differ from Westerosi traditions and there were some instances when the Targaryen king basically chose his own heir (even under the cover of a great council) and they did skip over females and male minors when convenient. 

There is no written succession law for any of the houses that we know of. The succession of the Iron Throne is precedent based, i.e. you look how the previous kings did it and how previous decisions were reached, and when the succession is contested you pick the precedents supporting your view and ignore those weakening your case. Often enough that way you argue by analogy, since every specific case is different, and without there being a proper law of succession specifying things in general terms, the fact that this prince followed that king, etc. doesn't necessarily mean much for your own case.

Originally, the Targaryens followed the precedents set by their Dragonstonian predecessors, they didn't look for or cite Westerosi succession laws. And the standard always is that the eldest son inherits. The tricky thing is what to do when there is no eldest son or what to do if the eldest son is dead.

A Baratheon king's contested succession would have to look for previous precedents for the succession of the Iron Throne. Not the dynasty makes the rules in this sense, but the throne they are sitting on. And the most important precedents there are the Great Councils since those are actually based on legal arguments, unlike succession wars which were settled by fire and sword.

Robert pretty much acted like any other king before him - he anointed his firstborn son his heir and treated him as such (what little that meant with as lazy a king as Robert) and his brothers should have accepted this. What we can say is that Myrcella is seen as a legitimate claimant to the Iron Throne, just as many Targaryen princesses were even after the Dance.

There is a historical tendency with the Baratheons to be quarrelsome and to be a pain in the ass for themselves and others, though. Just look at Rogar's brothers, Borros Baratheon and the Four Storms, or the Laughing Storm. Renly and Stannis both do not seem to be that unexceptional Baratheons trying to usurp the places of trueborn brothers and nephews. They are pretty noteworthy in this since we never see a full Targaryen sibling turning against a brother or sister, nor is this something that happens often or at all with other houses. The only exception there would be the Ironborn, but primogeniture isn't the only way succession is dealt with on the Iron Islands.

5 hours ago, The Merling King said:

Also how come no one removed Maegor or Aegon II from the kings list or put an asterix next to there name, they were usurpers but had the power to take Kings landing and the iron throne and are now legally recognized. 

It seems the people in Westeros aren't that much obsessed with lists of legitimate kings. Maegor and Aegon II sat the throne and effectively ruled for some time, so they are counted, whereas somebody like Aegon the Uncrowned was never crowned and never ruled and never sat the throne so he isn't counted even if people agree that he was 'the rightful king'. What is odd is that Rhaenyra is not numbered among the ruling monarchs since she actually sat the Iron Throne for some time and wasn't officially condemned as a pretender and false queen as per FaB (George excluded the passages from TPatQ claiming Aegon II declared that she was never a queen from the final edition of the history). She also was the chosen and anointed heir of her father and it is a fact of history that Aegon II usurped the throne. A correct list reflecting the facts as they are would go like that:

Aegon II (129-130 AC)

Rhaenyra I (130 AC)

Aegon II (131 AC)

If you ask me, then the way to differentiate a pretender from a ruling monarch is success. A ruling monarch has to sit the throne and be actually in possession of the trappings of power and control large enough parts of the Realm for some time. This would be why no Blackfyre is counted among the ruling monarchs, for instance, or why the likes of Hugh and Ulf and Trystane Truefyre and Gaemon Palehair are not seen as proper kings.

If Stannis had seized the Iron Throne for a time during the War of the Five Kings with Joffrey being reinstated later - like Aegon II was - an accurate depiction of events would also list Stannis as the proper king for the short time his reign lasted while his time as pretender in the field is not going to counted as a proper reign.

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

13 hours ago, Bloodraven’s Spider said:

Stannis would have done his duty as he always done, if Renly was the elder.. He would have supported his claim, I have no doubt in my mind.

I have said this simple argument several times now and no one has responded. So, I'll try again. Will Stannis bend a knee to Daenerys when she shows up? How about Aegon? If not, he is just as much a usurper as Renly and this whole stupid narrative can be put to bed. 

[Orm]

11 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

 

There is a historical tendency with the Baratheons to be quarrelsome and to be a pain in the ass for themselves and others, though. Just look at Rogar's brothers, Borros Baratheon and the Four Storms, or the Laughing Storm. Renly and Stannis both do not seem to be that unexceptional Baratheons trying to usurp the places of trueborn brothers and nephews. They are pretty noteworthy in this since we never see a full Targaryen sibling turning against a brother or sister, nor is this something that happens often or at all with other houses. The only exception there would be the Ironborn, but primogeniture isn't the only way succession is dealt with on the Iron Islands.

 

This again? I never understood your contrived logic of  "full-siblings" especially as inbred as the Targs. Just looking at Aenys and Maegor who they are to each other gives me a headache....

If any family is historically fucked up and self destructive it's the Targs. Lost their throne over less than 300 years by self-inflicting injuries.

Baratheons/Durrandons on the other hand have been ruling as long as the Starks(over 8000 years).....

[Eltharion21]

11 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

They are pretty noteworthy in this since we never see a full Targaryen sibling turning against a brother or sister, nor is this something that happens often or at all with other houses

Never go full Targaryen.

[Eltharion21]

6 hours ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

I have said this simple argument several times now and no one has responded. So, I'll try again. Will Stannis bend a knee to Daenerys when she shows up? How about Aegon? If not, he is just as much a usurper as Renly and this whole stupid narrative can be put to bed. 

No their dynasty was deposed because of crimes of her father and brother. Lords rebeled, won civil war and made feudal contract with new King Robert Baratheon, currently his is the legal dynasty.

[frenin]

1 hour ago, Orm said:

This again? I never understood your contrived logic of  "full-siblings" especially as inbred as the Targs. Just looking at Aenys and Maegor who they are to each other gives me a headache....

If any family is historically fucked up and self destructive it's the Targs. Lost their throne over less than 300 years by self-inflicting injuries.

Baratheons/Durrandons on the other hand have been ruling as long as the Starks(over 8000 years).....

His contrived logic has a very well intended meaning, he likes to bash on the Baratheons and needs an excuse to do so, and since the Targs are a family noteworthy for their infighting, he has to go to "full siblings", as if that mattered.

Then, he starts saying that the counter arguments don't work for A or B...

 

 

13 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

They are pretty noteworthy in this since we never see a full Targaryen sibling turning against a brother or sister, nor is this something that happens often or at all with other houses. The only exception there would be the Ironborn, but primogeniture isn't the only way succession is dealt with on the Iron Islands.

We do see Targs doing it, Aegon 4 did it and both Egg and Daeron were hoping for Duncan to kill Aerion and they both hated said brother.

Daemon killed the children and grand children of his full brother without a second thought.

 

Besides, aren't Cersei and Tyrion full siblings?? Isn't Tyrion trying to get back at all his family??

 

1 hour ago, Eltharion21 said:

No their dynasty was deposed because of crimes of her father and brother. Lords rebeled, won civil war and made feudal contract with new King Robert Baratheon, currently his is the legal dynasty.

Not according to them no.

But no, Stannis would not bend the knee, he does want his brother's Throne.

[Orm]

18 minutes ago, frenin said:

His contrived logic has a very well intended meaning, he likes to bash on the Baratheons and needs an excuse to do so, and since the Targs are a family noteworthy for their infighting, he has to go to "full siblings", as if that mattered.

Then, he starts saying that the counter arguments don't work for A or B...

 

 

Oh well than he is gonna have hard time since Baratheons/Durrandons are one of my favourites in ASOIAF........I like bashing on the Targs and frankly I never run out of material upon reading their history......

[Bloodraven’s Spider]

10 hours ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

I have said this simple argument several times now and no one has responded. So, I'll try again. Will Stannis bend a knee to Daenerys when she shows up? How about Aegon? If not, he is just as much a usurper as Renly and this whole stupid narrative can be put to bed. 

He would not bend the knee. But these what if questions are completely different from the original topic at hand.

 

And he shouldn’t bend the knee the Targaryen line was overthrown with the help of his own house and self... Why would he...

[Lord Varys]

4 hours ago, Orm said:

This again? I never understood your contrived logic of  "full-siblings" especially as inbred as the Targs. Just looking at Aenys and Maegor who they are to each other gives me a headache....

Aenys and Maegor were half-brothers. And while they weren't close they never turned against each other before Maegor pulled that shit with his second wife. And even then Aenys didn't take Maegor's head. Maegor eventually persecuted his half-nephews but, to his defense, we can say he waited until Aegon the Uncrowned moved against him. He did not demand his execution the moment he took the throne.

4 hours ago, Orm said:

If any family is historically fucked up and self destructive it's the Targs. Lost their throne over less than 300 years by self-inflicting injuries.

Baratheons/Durrandons on the other hand have been ruling as long as the Starks(over 8000 years).....

The Durrandons aren't Baratheons. And the Baratheons are just Targaryens with black hair, basically. Even in-universe people attribute their erratic behavior to their Targaryen blood (Olenna Redwyne), but in truth they are worse than the Targaryens if you look at Rogar and his brothers and Robert, Stannis, and Renly. Might be Durrandon-Targaryen hybrids turn out that way ;-).

4 hours ago, Eltharion21 said:

No their dynasty was deposed because of crimes of her father and brother. Lords rebeled, won civil war and made feudal contract with new King Robert Baratheon, currently his is the legal dynasty.

That is really nowhere stated in-universe. Nobody was deposed. The Mad King and his heirs were murdered, and the survivors fled into exile. Nobody ever stated anything about anyone being deposed, and Robert is just another Targaryen descendant. His dynasty is the same only with black hair and through the female line and his legal claim to the throne comes from his grandmother and great-grandfather.

If Robert hadn't been a Targaryen descendant and the rebels hadn't installed him as king because of his royal blood, then the Baratheons would have been a new dynasty. But they are not. And if Robert has a legal claim because of his royal blood, so have the Targaryens through the male line.

Stannis is a hypocrite seeing himself as 'the rightful king' when Robert was just a bloody usurper - and he himself, too, for siding with him against Aerys II.

3 hours ago, frenin said:

We do see Targs doing it, Aegon 4 did it and both Egg and Daeron were hoping for Duncan to kill Aerion and they both hated said brother.

LOL, Aegon IV didn't declare a war on his wife and brother, did he? And neither Daeron nor Egg ever tried to murder Aerion. They hoped for a certain outcome in a Trial of Seven Aerion enforced, but that's not the same as a bloody rebellion/civil war.

3 hours ago, frenin said:

Daemon killed the children and grand children of his full brother without a second thought.

LOOOL, you have to say something, even if it has no bearing at all. I talked about full siblings, not distant relations. Nephews and great-nephews aren't siblings, are they?

If you don't realize that there it is striking that the Baratheons are portrayed as a self-destructive, quarrelsome bunch to the degree other houses aren't then that is your problem. It is there.

[frenin]

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

LOL, Aegon IV didn't declare a war on his wife and brother, did he? And neither Daeron nor Egg ever tried to murder Aerion. They hoped for a certain outcome in a Trial of Seven Aerion enforced, but that's not the same as a bloody rebellion/civil war.

No, Aegon IV only provoked his brother's death and raped his sister into an early death.

Daeron and Egg, looked for champions to beat their own brother up while hoping that he die.

Ofc if the way is saying, except this, this, this and this, No one has ever done that, then i agree.

 

 

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

LOOOL, you have to say something, even if it has no bearing at all. I talked about full siblings, not distant relations. Nephews and great-nephews aren't siblings, are they?

Nope, they are family however, and those nephews and great nephews are the sons and grandsons of his brother.

 

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

If you don't realize that there it is striking that the Baratheons are portrayed as a self-destructive, quarrelsome bunch to the degree other houses aren't then that is your problem. It is there.

Sure, I realize that you really really dislike the Baratheons,  to the point of create arbitrary bars, It is there.

Ofc, that if you're a fan of a House famous for killing each other once for generation, you gotta say something.

 

[Orm]

29 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Aenys and Maegor were half-brothers. And while they weren't close they never turned against each other before Maegor pulled that shit with his second wife. And even then Aenys didn't take Maegor's head. Maegor eventually persecuted his half-nephews but, to his defense, we can say he waited until Aegon the Uncrowned moved against him. He did not demand his execution the moment he took the throne.

The Durrandons aren't Baratheons. And the Baratheons are just Targaryens with black hair, basically. Even in-universe people attribute their erratic behavior to their Targaryen blood (Olenna Redwyne), but in truth they are worse than the Targaryens if you look at Rogar and his brothers and Robert, Stannis, and Renly. Might be Durrandon-Targaryen hybrids turn out that way ;-).

Oh wow...... Aenys and Maegor were just half-brothers were they???We may have been reading different books, but you do you lord Varys......

 

Baratheons are more Durrandons than they ever were Targs........ I am sorry it's just that Rogar, Borros,Lyonel and Robert all scream Argilac Durrandon than any Targ(Orys or Rhaelle)..... Granted Stannis is a bit targ-like but I will still argue he is more storm than fire.....

 

And you are right it's  definitely the Targaryen taint which is making them erratic as of late...

[Orm]

36 minutes ago, frenin said:

No, Aegon IV only provoked his brother's death and raped his sister into an early death.

Daeron and Egg, looked for champions to beat their own brother up while hoping that he die.

Ofc if the way is saying, except this, this, this and this, No one has ever done that, then i agree.

 

 

Nope, they are family however, and those nephews and great nephews are the sons and grandsons of his brother.

 

Sure, I realize that you really really dislike the Baratheons,  to the point of create arbitrary bars, It is there.

Ofc, that if you're a family famous for killing each other once for generation, you gotta say something.

 

It seems that Lord Varys finds it more dignified that if you wanna kill/rape your family/sibling then stay quite about it and maintain your image......

 

Unlike the Baratheons/Durrandons who scream at the top of their lungs when they want someone dead, family or otherwise.....LOL...

[Lord Varys]

19 minutes ago, Orm said:

Oh wow...... Aenys and Maegor were just half-brothers were they???We may have been reading different books, but you do you lord Varys......

You were replying to my point about full siblings.

19 minutes ago, Orm said:

Baratheons are more Durrandons than they ever were Targs........ I am sorry it's just that Rogar, Borros,Lyonel and Robert all scream Argilac Durrandon than any Targ(Orys or Rhaelle)..... Granted Stannis is a bit targ-like but I will still argue he is more storm than fire.....

They are Targaryens in the male line as to family belief which claims that Orys Baratheon was the bastard son of Lord Aerion Targaryen and a half-brother of Aegon I and his sisters. Thus they are effectively an illegitmate male cadet branch of House Targaryen. In addition to that, they got even more Targaryen blood by ways of Alyssa Velaryon and Rhaelle Targaryen.

They might not look the part, but they are Targaryens.

How much of their traits go back to their Durrandon ancestors or how much to their Baratheon-Targaryen roots we really don't know. After all, the Durrandons are not known for their quarrelsome nature. Ronard the Bastard aside there is no mention of succession struggles, instead a lot of Durrandon kings were weaklings who lost all of the Stormlands outside Storm's End.

[Orm]

4 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

You were replying to my point about full siblings.

They are Targaryens in the male line as to family belief which claims that Orys Baratheon was the bastard son of Lord Aerion Targaryen and a half-brother of Aegon I and his sisters. Thus they are effectively an illegitmate male cadet branch of House Targaryen. In addition to that, they got even more Targaryen blood by ways of Alyssa Velaryon and Rhaelle Targaryen.

They might not look the part, but they are Targaryens.

How much of their traits go back to their Durrandon ancestors or how much to their Baratheon-Targaryen roots we really don't know. After all, the Durrandons are not known for their quarrelsome nature. Ronard the Bastard aside there is no mention of succession struggles, instead a lot of Durrandon kings were weaklings who lost all of the Stormlands outside Storm's End.

Hmm..... Ok so Aenys and Maegor share the same father who fathered them on his sister's....... So they both share and have only one set of grandparents...... Let that sink in...... I would not call them full-siblings rather ultra-inbred siblings..... And it is hard seeing where you draw the line.

 

Targaryens in the male line? By that logic I will argue that the Starks are bastard wildlings and the Lannisters are Lyddens. Orys, Alyssa and Rhaelle are 3 genetic donors on a over 8000 year old bloodline. The fire never could overcome the storm..... not with Orys,not with Alyssa and not with Rhaelle....granted there is some essence (Stannis).

 

Yea they certainly don't look Targaryen (silver-haired, purple eyed) because the look Durrandon (Black haired, blue eyed).

 

You know a house/family which has 'Ours is the fury' as their family motto and survived for over 8000 years warring on all fronts and still survives with a rebranded name are certainly not weaklings.

 

The Durrandons lost their name and almost half their lands to the Targaryens in the conquest. But they more than made up for it 280 years later.

 

 

[Lord Varys]

3 hours ago, Orm said:

Hmm..... Ok so Aenys and Maegor share the same father who fathered them on his sister's....... So they both share and have only one set of grandparents...... Let that sink in...... I would not call them full-siblings rather ultra-inbred siblings..... And it is hard seeing where you draw the line.

Yeah, okay, but let's not try to entangle the Targaryen incest shit. Aenys and Maegor didn't have the same mother and were thus not full siblings. This is pretty much marked since Queen Visenya doesn't refer to King Aenys as 'son' - which she as his stepmother could have - but as 'nephew'.

3 hours ago, Orm said:

Targaryens in the male line? By that logic I will argue that the Starks are bastard wildlings and the Lannisters are Lyddens. Orys, Alyssa and Rhaelle are 3 genetic donors on a over 8000 year old bloodline. The fire never could overcome the storm..... not with Orys,not with Alyssa and not with Rhaelle....granted there is some essence (Stannis).

Well, it is a patriarchal society, so the male line is important - which is why there are Baratheons and not Durrandons in the series. Orys stole banner, arms, and castle of the Durrandons and had their last scion give birth to his children - but they got his name, the Baratheon name, and didn't go by the old Durrandon name.

Which is why this is a different case than with the Lydden who became and wanted to be a Lannister. Orys Baratheon as a man did have a Targaryen father (or people believe this to be the case, even King Jaehaerys I) and thus his descendants are Targaryens the same way the Blackfyres are Targaryens going by a different name. The only difference is that Orys and his descendants don't look like prototypical Valyrians. But that doesn't change their family tree.

And Stannis is not that different from other Baratheons - in fact, the fun with Rogar's brothers is that there is much of Stannis in Rogar's brother Borys - the repressed ambition turning to poison, his desire to kill his brother and his brother's children, etc. All that we have in Stannis again when he turns against both Renly and the children Robert believed to be his - and who saw him, Stannis, as their uncle.

And if take the female into account that Princess Rhaelle is definitely more important than, say, Argella Durrandon or whatever women make up Orys' maternal ancestry.

3 hours ago, Orm said:

Yea they certainly don't look Targaryen (silver-haired, purple eyed) because the look Durrandon (Black haired, blue eyed).

We don't know from whom the Baratheon looks come from. Could be the Durrandon bloodline, but could also be Orys Baratheon and his non-Targaryen ancestors. He was black-haired and black-eyed which could mean he had very dark blueish/purple eyes. We don't know how the ancient Durrandons looked like, unless I'm mistaken, all we do know is that Argilac had black hair.

Unless I'm misremembering right now, we don't even know whether Argella Durrandon had black hair.

It might be that this whole 'stable black hair' thing goes back to Durran Godsgrief and his divine wife, but there is no confirmation of this so far. Could be a Baratheon trait.

3 hours ago, Orm said:

The Durrandons lost their name and almost half their lands to the Targaryens in the conquest. But they more than made up for it 280 years later.

Well, no. A unofficial Targaryen cadet branch took over Storm's End during the Conquest and a scion from that Targaryen cadet branch ousted the main line in 283 AC.

[Universal Sword Donor]

On 7/11/2020 at 9:35 AM, Bloodraven’s Spider said:

Stannis would have done his duty as he always done, if Renly was the elder.. He would have supported his claim, I have no doubt in my mind.
 

I didn't necessarily dispute that. I said we know that it wasn't an easy decision. He literally tells us it was difficult. And again if he's the youngest we don't know if he would have known about the incest or not. He would not have supported Renly against Joffrey if he didn't know about it.

 

On 7/11/2020 at 9:35 AM, Bloodraven’s Spider said:

After Ned lost his head and the city smallfolk starting uprising due to inflation and food prices. Renly should have been in hot pursuit. 

Why? Lannisters and Starks duking it out. Civil unrest and riots inside a powered keg, poorly defended capital? He can wait for it to blow up and then show up with security and food without losing a soul, which is exactly what he was doing.

On 7/11/2020 at 9:35 AM, Bloodraven’s Spider said:

And you are seriously not grasping the context of how impressive Jaime was at Riverrun and Raventree. 

I am very well read on those victories. They're just not that impressive. Overwhelming numbers and the lord of the castle / house as captive. He manages to take it without a fight. That's not meant to show him as a genius, it's meant to show us how stupid the Freys were, how powerless / not respected that Daven was, and Jaime moving beyond thinking with his sword. Daven says as much to Jaime when he mentions Kevan:

Would that he'd remained, I could have used his counsel. Our friends of Frey would not have dared vex Ser Kevan the way that they've been vexing me."

And again, it's not even like it's a new strategy. He basically just does what Tywin tried to teach to Joffrey:

"Most," agreed Lord Tywin. "Riverrun remains, but so long as Walder Frey holds Edmure Tully hostage, the Blackfish dare not mount a threat. Jason Mallister and Tytos Blackwood will fight on for honor's sake, but the Freys can keep the Mallisters penned up at Seagard, and with the right inducement Jonos Bracken can be persuaded to change his allegiance and attack the Blackwoods. In the end they will bend the knee, yes. I mean to offer generous terms. Any castle that yields to us will be spared, save one."

Be quiet, Cersei. Joffrey, when your enemies defy you, you must serve them steel and fire. When they go to their knees, however, you must help them back to their feet. Elsewise no man will ever bend the knee to you.

Granted Jaime's not there but he's well aware of what his father has done and would have done. In the aforementioned conversation, no one disputes what Tywin says except Joffrey, and we know him to be a callow, cruel moron.

And again with Raventree hall, Karyl Vance told him all he needed to do was show up.

These victories are not really that impressive. They are meant to show Jaime's character becoming deeper and changing for the better.

[Universal Sword Donor]

On 7/11/2020 at 9:57 AM, Bloodraven’s Spider said:

firstly Jaime had nothing to do with the original discussion at hand but yes I do think Jaime would be a better king. 

 

And as you say Renly coul have just steamrolled him but he didn’t cuz he’s wrong. He shouldN’t have been trying to fight Stannis in the first place which is why he didn’t attack.

This is my main point, but no one wants understand logic, HE SHOULD HAVE YIELDED TO STANNIS AS HE WAS THE ELDER!!!

If he yields to Stanni, he loses his marriage alliance to the Tyrells who can then offer their virgin daughter to the current king -- in addition to being absurd because Stannis can't even match 1/20 the force that Renly has.