Old Nan's Identity and her Unrevealed Secrets

[The Fattest Leech]

14 hours ago, TheLastWolf said:

23 hours ago, Mithras said:

Finally, wildling origin also explains where Old Nan learned some of the creepiest stories that no one else knows

Why would she talk of the wildlings as creatures who drank human blood from skulls and reinforced superstitions and prejudices if she were a wildling?

Half of this story is the slow reveal that the wildlings aren't the enemy but rather they are Free Folk born on the "wrong" side of the tracks. That they are part of the realms of men that need saving. Part of the way  this is setup for the reader is the misinformation that fed to use via the storytellers. It is only through Jon (and the readers) firsthand experience that we see and witness for ourselves that the stories aren't true... in whole... because in parts there is some truth. The monsters do exist, but they exist in places like King's Landing (for many reasons, including "eating babies"). This misinformation is part of what we readers need to see through, the same reason why Eddard was wrong about Gared, even though it is clear he has a gut feeling that something is "off". Instead, Ned goes on what he is taught because that is what is expected of him.

• A Game of Thrones - Catelyn I

  "He was the fourth this year," Ned said grimly. "The poor man was half-mad. Something had put a fear in him so deep that my words could not reach him." He sighed. "Ben writes that the strength of the Night's Watch is down below a thousand. It's not only desertions. They are losing men on rangings as well."

  "Is it the wildlings?" she asked.

  "Who else?" Ned lifted Ice, looked down the cool steel length of it. "And it will only grow worse. The day may come when I will have no choice but to call the banners and ride north to deal with this King-beyond-the-Wall for good and all."

• A Storm of Swords - Bran IV

  Bran wasn't so certain. The Nightfort had figured in some of Old Nan's scariest stories. It was here that Night's King had reigned, before his name was wiped from the memory of man. This was where the Rat Cook had served the Andal king his prince-and-bacon pie, where the seventy-nine sentinels stood their watch, where brave young Danny Flint had been raped and murdered. This was the castle where King Sherrit had called down his curse on the Andals of old, where the 'prentice boys had faced the thing that came in the night, where blind Symeon Star-Eyes had seen the hellhounds fighting. Mad Axe had once walked these yards and climbed these towers, butchering his brothers in the dark.

  All that had happened hundreds and thousands of years ago, to be sure, and some maybe never happened at all. Maester Luwin always said that Old Nan's stories shouldn't be swallowed whole. But once his uncle came to see Father, and Bran asked about the Nightfort. Benjen Stark never said the tales were true, but he never said they weren't; he only shrugged and said, "We left the Nightfort two hundred years ago," as if that was an answer.

The truth is being slowly revealed to the reader, but it's there and not hidden in some tertiary character or backstory that can only be revealed by reading a different book, rather it's her words and stories that matter as Bran is about to become a character (Sea Lord) in many of those stories.

[Megorova]

1 hour ago, TheLastWolf said:

But how could Nan have known that it was Quaithe's plot and that she was the 3EC?

She didn't knew/never met/never talked with Quaithe, nor with Shiera.

Probably, she never even met in person/talked with the 3EC. Possibly, Dunk saw a dream, in which the 3EC said to him something, and because of whatever it (3EC) said, Dunk went away from Winterfell. Dunk told Nan the reason why is he leaving, he told her about whatever it was that the 3EC told him. Though not Dunk nor Nan knew the real identity of the 3EC, or that there's some sort of hiden identity behind it. And, probably, Dunk didn't mentioned that the crow in his dream had three eyes. Thus Nan didn't connected Bran's dream with the 3EC to Dunk's dream with the lying crow, whose lie ruined Nan's life.

For example, the 3EC told Dunk that he and Egg need to go to King's Landing (or to Summerhall, wherever Egg's family was at that time), because Egg's family is supposedly in mortal danger, and they have to go there to save them. Or something like that. The 3EC used some sort of bait/trap to get Dunk away from Nan and the future that the two of them would have build at Winterfell as a family, if Dunk didn't left when he left. Or something like that.

Dunk is a dragonseed, same as Bran, same as Shiera, same as Dany and Rhaego. And Jojen and Meera Reed. So they were able to connect in their dreams thru DragonNetwork.

Explanation is long and goes offtopic, so I posted it under spoiler. Old Nan is not a carrier of dragon genes, so she didn't had dreams with the 3EC. Only Dunk had them. Or Dunk and Egg.

Spoiler

Bran and his siblings, Catelyn's children, are dragonseeds, because Cat's mother was Minisa Whent. Read the history of House Whent - originally they were knights in service of House Lothston, who ruled in Harrenhal. Then Whents orchestrated dawnfall of Lothstons and got Harrenhal. First Lord Whent, who was Shella Whent's grandfather and also ancestor of Minisa Whent, is the Bastard of Harrenhal / Manfryd of the Black Hood/ Manfryd Lothston, son of Lucas Lothston. Jeyne Lothston wasn't Lucas Lothston's daughter, her real father was Aegon IV. Manfryd, who was the Bastard of Harrenhal, and supposedly son of Lucas Lothston, also wasn't Lucas' son, his real father was Aegon IV, and his mother was Jeyne Lothston (Aegon's daughter). House Whent are products of incest between father and daughter, and they are secret dragonseeds. This Bastard of Harrenhal is also Littlefinger's ancestor. Prior taking a last name Whent, he visited Braavos, where he met with Aegon's other unacknowledged bastards, people that were like him, with children of the first Black Pearl - Bellenora, Narha and Balerion, and he had a child with one of those two women, or with one of their daughters. And that child is the sellsword from Braavos, who is Littlefinger's great grandfather. The timing works. Bran is a dragonseed thru his mother, and he is bloodrelated to Bloodraven and Shiera Seastar, who were half-siblings of the Bastard of Harrenhal, who is Bran's ancestor on his mother's side.

Furthermore, there's a bit of dragon blood even on Bran's Stark-side of his family tree, thru Melantha Blackwood, who is a daughter of Mya Rivers/Blackwood thru marriage, sister of Bloodraven. Bloodraven is Bran's 3times-great uncle on Bran's Stark-side, 3times-great uncle on Bran's Blackwood-side, and 3times-great uncle on Bran's Whent-side. Triple great great great uncle in three major Houses of 7K. GRRM often uses number 3 in ASOIAF.

[How Melantha Blackwood is a dragonseeds - Cregan Stark married with Alysanne Blackwood, and had with her four daughters. In Stark family tree there is no information with whom those daughters married, if they ever married. That's because, it seems likely, that GRRM deliberately left out that information from The World Book, not to give too many hints to readers. Though names of those four girls are also hints. I speculated a bit thru Stark family tree, and the timing works, I made this conclusion -

Sarra, Alys, Raya, Mariah:

Sarra Stark married with a Royce, and their daughter (or graddaughter) was Lorra Royce, who married with Beron Stark.

Alys Stark married with a Karstark, and their daughter was Alys Karstark, who married with Brandon Stark.

Alys Karstark was Brandon's niece. Brandon's two older brothers, Jonnel and Edric, also married with their nieces, with Sansa and Serena Stark. There was three Stark-brothers who married with their nieces. As I already said - GRRM frequently adds 3 into his story.

Raya Stark married with a Flint, and their descendant was Arya Flint, who married with Rodrik Stark. Get it - Raya/Arya.

Mariah Stark married with a Blackwood, and her daughter, Melissa Blackwood, had three children with King Aegon - Brynden, Gwenis, and Mya. Mya married back into Blackwood family, and her daughter, Melantha Blackwood, married with Willam Stark, who was Ned's ancestor.

Mariah - Melissa - Mya - Melantha.

(GRRM also likes to play with names, like in this case, or in case with the Black Pearls, or with participants of the Fifth Blackfyre Rebellion and their descendants.)

Egg's wife, Betha Blackwood, was also somehow closely bloodrelated to Melantha. Most likely, they were either sisters, or first cousins, or an aunt and a niece. Betha was a carrier of Targaryen-genes, that's why out of her three sons only Duncan the Small was dark-haired, while the other two were Targaryen-blond, even though Betha herself had black hair, because of which she was called Black Betha. The same case was with the children of Daeron II Targaryen and his wife Mariah Martell - only one of their children, Baelor Breakspear, was dark-haired like his mother, while the rest of their children were Targaryen-blond. That's because Mariah Martell and her brother Maron were carriers of dragonseed genes, and passed blond hair alleles to their descendants. They were descendants of Drazenko Rogare, who was uncle of Aegon IV's mother, Larra Rogare. Thru Drazenko his dragonseed genes were passed down to Mariah, and also to Elia and Oberyn Martell, because, even though both of them were dark-haired, they had blond children - Aegon VI Targaryen and Tyene Sand.]

Sorry for this offtopic. The point is - same as Bran, Duncan was a dragonseed, same as Shiera/3EC, thus she was able to get into their dreams and influence them. If Nan is Alysanne Stark, younger sister of Willam Stark, then she wasn't/isn't a carrier of dragonseed genes, because dragonseed genes were added into Stark-family-tree thru Willam's children with Melantha Blackwood, Alysanne's sister-in-law.

I have a theory that Jojen and Meera Reed are children of Ashara Dayne, their mother Jyana is actually Ashara, who took name similar to her friend's Lyanna's. Egg's mother was Dyanna Dayne. Targaryens nearly always married if not with other Targaryens, then at least with descendants of Targaryens. Like - Aemma Arryn, wife of Viserys I, was half-Targaryen thru her mother; Jocelyn Baratheon, wife of Aemon Targaryen, was daughter of Alyssa Velaryon (wife of Aenys I Targaryen); Aelinor Penrose, wife of Aerys I Targaryen, was his cousin on Targaryen-side. Rhaena Targaryen married with Garmund Hightower, and they had six daughters. Seems likely that those daughters married into House Penrose, Dayne, Dondarrion, Arryn, and Blackwood. And their descendants, that later married back into Targaryen family, were Aelinor Penrose (Aerys I's wife), Dyanna Dayne (Egg's mother), Alys Arryn (wife of Rhaegel Targaryen), Jena Dondarrion (Baelor's wife), and Betha Blackwood (Egg's wife). So thru her Targaryen ancestor, Ashara Dayne is a dragonseeds, and so are Meera and Jojen. That's why Jojen also was able to see prophetic (dragon) dreams with the 3EC (who is a dragonseed Shiera Seastar).

 

[Megorova]

1 hour ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Old Nan's story is already significant as it serves in the current story. We don't need another secret identity or complicated secret past to make ASOIAF any better. Plus, there isn't enough time, and Nan is most likely dead at Dreadfort.

It's not for ASOIAF, it's for Dunk&Egg 9 (or 6) remaining novels.

In ASOIAF Nan is old and an insignificant character, but who knows in how many of D&E novels she and hers and Dunk's children will be featured as characters. Dunk went to Winterfell after 212, though died he in 259, so there's additional 47 years in which GRRM will reveal the plot-bridge that connects Dunk to Brienne and his other descendants.

P.S. Nan seems to be shortening of Alysanne. She's Alysanne Stark, daughter of Beron Stark, younger sister of Willam Stark (she was wet-nurse of Willam's son Brandon), and older sister of the Wandering Wolf.

[kissdbyfire]

19 minutes ago, Megorova said:

PS. Nan seems to be shortening of Alysanne. She's Alysanne Stark, daughter of Beron Stark, younger sister of Willam Stark (she was wet-nurse of Willam's son Brandon), and older sister of the Wandering Wolf.

No, she isn’t. There’s no way any of the Starks wouldn’t know this. No. Way. In. Hell. 

[The Fattest Leech]

25 minutes ago, Megorova said:

It's not for ASOIAF, it's for Dunk&Egg 9 (or 6) remaining novels.

In ASOIAF Nan is old and an insignificant character, but who knows in how many of D&E novels she and hers and Dunk's children will be featured as characters. Dunk went to Winterfell after 212, though died he in 259, so there's additional 47 years in which GRRM will reveal the plot-bridge that connects Dunk to Brienne and his other descendants.

That's not the point of Dunk & Egg stories. They aren't written to give backstory to a tertiary character in current timeline, especially one who is most likely dead. Old Walder and Brynden Rivers are the exception because they are both larger players in the current timeline. I am sure we could get a glimpse, a mention, or even a few conversations with Young Nan (whatever her real name will be), but these D&E stories aren't reveal stories like that.

25 minutes ago, Megorova said:

 

P.S. Nan seems to be shortening of Alysanne. She's Alysanne Stark, daughter of Beron Stark, younger sister of Willam Stark (she was wet-nurse of Willam's son Brandon), and older sister of the Wandering Wolf.

Disagree on the name as noted above. If old Nan being a Stark were so, then current Starks would know this and her past identity wouldn't be so "lost" to time. I can't say that there is anything solid to stand on here for this theory, but I assume it's another theory you probably already have a flag firmly planted in.

[Mithras]

For the record, I think the wildling backstory of Old Nan (if true) will be the stuff of future D&E novellas and they won't have any bearing to the current story.

[Mithras]

2 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Half of this story is the slow reveal that the wildlings aren't the enemy but rather they are Free Folk born on the "wrong" side of the tracks. That they are part of the realms of men that need saving. Part of the way  this is setup for the reader is the misinformation that fed to use via the storytellers. It is only through Jon (and the readers) firsthand experience that we see and witness for ourselves that the stories aren't true... in whole... because in parts there is some truth. The monsters do exist, but they exist in places like King's Landing (for many reasons, including "eating babies"). This misinformation is part of what we readers need to see through, the same reason why Eddard was wrong about Gared, even though it is clear he has a gut feeling that something is "off". Instead, Ned goes on what he is taught because that is what is expected of him.

• A Game of Thrones - Catelyn I

  "He was the fourth this year," Ned said grimly. "The poor man was half-mad. Something had put a fear in him so deep that my words could not reach him." He sighed. "Ben writes that the strength of the Night's Watch is down below a thousand. It's not only desertions. They are losing men on rangings as well."

  "Is it the wildlings?" she asked.

  "Who else?" Ned lifted Ice, looked down the cool steel length of it. "And it will only grow worse. The day may come when I will have no choice but to call the banners and ride north to deal with this King-beyond-the-Wall for good and all."

• A Storm of Swords - Bran IV

  Bran wasn't so certain. The Nightfort had figured in some of Old Nan's scariest stories. It was here that Night's King had reigned, before his name was wiped from the memory of man. This was where the Rat Cook had served the Andal king his prince-and-bacon pie, where the seventy-nine sentinels stood their watch, where brave young Danny Flint had been raped and murdered. This was the castle where King Sherrit had called down his curse on the Andals of old, where the 'prentice boys had faced the thing that came in the night, where blind Symeon Star-Eyes had seen the hellhounds fighting. Mad Axe had once walked these yards and climbed these towers, butchering his brothers in the dark.

  All that had happened hundreds and thousands of years ago, to be sure, and some maybe never happened at all. Maester Luwin always said that Old Nan's stories shouldn't be swallowed whole. But once his uncle came to see Father, and Bran asked about the Nightfort. Benjen Stark never said the tales were true, but he never said they weren't; he only shrugged and said, "We left the Nightfort two hundred years ago," as if that was an answer.

The truth is being slowly revealed to the reader, but it's there and not hidden in some tertiary character or backstory that can only be revealed by reading a different book, rather it's her words and stories that matter as Bran is about to become a character (Sea Lord) in many of those stories.

I agree with this. But at the same time, the other half of the story is that there indeed are some wildlings out there that live up to those awful stories (e.g Craster, Harma, Weeper, Rattleshirt, ice river clans, Hornfoots etc.) More importantly, any wildling spotted south of the Wall by the Northmen should be some raider and they should be feared. Therefore, I don't think Old Nan would need to tell Bran about the good wildlings that he would possibly never encounter if he lived a regular life. Jon had to go beyond the Wall and live with them to see that there were also good wildlings.

[The Fattest Leech]

22 minutes ago, Mithras said:

I agree with this. But at the same time, the other half of the story is that there indeed are some wildlings out there that live up to those awful stories.

Right. The same with "bastards". For the overwhelming part of the story (and in the future books, most like) bastards are not monsters that the lower realm makes them out to be. However, what it does is to serve as an example of the extreme version that is a danger to the people of the story. Ramsay Snow is that extreme threat. Not Jon. So there is always a grain of truth, but not the whole thing by any means. Just as old Nan says those north of the wall "eat babies' and shyte, when there is truth in that, but readers are looking the wrong way. We are the Wrong Way Readers ... I'll see myself out

Quote

More importantly, any wildling spotted south of the Wall by the Northmen should be some raider and they should be feared.

Some of them, yes. But we also know that there is trading along coasts, etc and even that the NW trades with them. But in reality, the free folk do nothing that those south of the wall don't do every single day already. They are not anymore of a threat on a daily basis than say, Tywin Lannister and the constant wars and village burings and rapings are. The extreme "wildling" we should be looking out for is the Weeper and those that follow him. My girl Val says it best:

A Dance with Dragons - Jon V

Val had reminded him of that, on his last visit with her. "Free folk and kneelers are more alike than not, Jon Snow. Men are men and women women, no matter which side of the Wall we were born on. Good men and bad, heroes and villains, men of honor, liars, cravens, brutes … we have plenty, as do you."

She was not wrong. The trick was telling one from the other, parting the sheep from the goats.

Quote

Therefore, I don't think Old Nan would need to tell Bran about the good wildlings that he would possibly never encounter if he lived a regular life. Jon had to go beyond the Wall and live with them to see that there were also good wildlings.

Right, and considering there is going to be a Jon and Bran 'magical' reunion coming up, these two sides are merging for one larger good (and that's a megathread on its own). But this is the difference between the Free Folk and the "wildlings". Old Nan was prepping Bran for the worst that is to come. Part of the "kill the boy" fast growth these kids have to do if they want to survive.

[Megorova]

1 hour ago, kissdbyfire said:

No, she isn’t. There’s no way any of the Starks wouldn’t know this. No. Way. In. Hell. 

Yeah, right

Albar Royce, who offered himself as a champion for Lysa Arryn in Tyrion's trial by combat, he is Ned Stark's second cousin, though was it mentioned in the story? - No, it wasn't. Did Catelyn thought at that moment - Oh, look, this guy is my husband's second cousin. Hey, Lysa, let him fight for you. - No, nothing like that happened.

Willam Stark's daughter, Jocelyn, married with Benedict Royce.

Jocelyn's brother, Edwyle, married with Marna Locke, and Rickard Stark was their son, and Ned was their grandson.

Ned - Rickard - Edwyle - Willam

Albar - Nestor - Benedict/Jocelyn - Willam

Did Jon mentioned to anyone or even in his thoughts, that Alys Karstark is his some sort of cousin, when she came to him to Castle Black? No, he didn't.

Artos Stark, who married with Lysara Karstark, is father of Brandon and Benjen Karstarks, that were first cousins to Edwyle Stark. Their children, Arnolf and unnamed Karstark, were second cousins to Rickard Stark. Their grandchildren, Rickard, Cregan and Arthor Karstarks, are Eddard Stark's third cousins. If Jon was Ned's son, then Alys Karstark would have been his fourth cousin. But neither of them mentioned it. Didn't they?

Alysanne/Nan was three generations before Eddard's.

Beron - Willam - Edwyle - Rickard - Eddard

Beron - Alysanne - son - grandson - Hodor

Hodor is Ned's third cousin. Albar Royce is Ned's second cousin, Rickard Karstark is Ned's third cousin, same as Hodor, and none of it was mentioned in the story. People there don't have a social network or photo albums to keep in contact with every relative on their vast family tree.

Ned doesn't know that Old Nan is his great great aunt.

Even I don't know any of my great great aunts/uncles, and I have social networks and Google at my disposal.

Do you know all of your third cousins? I don't know none of mine. I only know that I have 50+ second cousins, and I don't have any idea of how many third cousins.

Get real, you naive summer child (no offense meant).

"No one really knew how old she was, but his father said she’d been called Old Nan even when he was a boy. She was the oldest person in Winterfell for certain, maybe the oldest person in the Seven Kingdoms." <- they don't even know how old she is, or what is her actual given name, thus, it's not surprising that they were unaware that she is their relative.

[Springwatch]

On 7/8/2020 at 9:10 PM, Megorova said:

And what kind of name is Nan? Seems likely that it's a shortening, same as Ned is a shortening of Eddard.

When Arya used the name, she claimed it was a shortening of Nymeria.

Ok,she might have been bluffing, but still, extra respect for Old Nan.

[kissdbyfire]

1 minute ago, Megorova said:

Ned doesn't know that Old Nan is his great great aunt.

You can roll your eyes at me all day long, and twice on Sundays (go for it!), Megorova. 
I am sorry, but you are not the one, sole special snowflake who figured it all out. It seems you work sort of backwards... you have an idea, and then you go back to the text and twist it into a misshapen pretzel - redundancy, since pretzels are misshapen anyway? - to make it fit. Doesn’t really work like that, you know.

So, explain to me how Ned isn’t aware that Old Nan is his “great-great-aunt”? 

[The Fattest Leech]

11 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

When Arya used the name, she claimed it was a shortening of Nymeria.

Ok,she might have been bluffing, but still, extra respect for Old Nan.

Yes, That was very sweet of Arya. She chose a name of someone that both gave her comfort and strength, however it might have been bluffed a bit.

[kissdbyfire]

3 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Yes, That was very sweet of Arya. She chose a name of someone that both gave her comfort and strength, however it might have been bluffed a bit.

Yes. Two (homages) for the price of one.

 

[Megorova]

28 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

So, explain to me how Ned isn’t aware that Old Nan is his “great-great-aunt”?

Edwyle Stark, Ned's paternal grandfather, was Alysanne's nephew. He, probably, was one of those last people that called Nan by her real name. Edwyle's son, Rickard, called her Nan, while he was a child. And by the time of Ned's birth, everyone called her Old Nan and didn't knew that she used to have a different name. By that time, most likely, Ned's grandfather was either already dead, or old and senile, so he either forgot that Nan's real name is something else, or he used to call her Nan even when she was young, at that time when she was Brandon's wet-nurse (this Brandon was Edwyle's older brother, and he died aged three, from summer chill). Possibly the first person that started to call Alysanne with name Nan, was little Brandon. And after him Edwyle, who was even younger than little Brandon. Edwyle knew that this Nan person is his aunt, and when he grew up and got married and had his own child, this child, Rickard, also knew that this Nan person is his great aunt. But after that nobody cared much, paid any specific attention to it, etc.

People forget, people don't care, information becomes lost.

Who at the Night's Watch knew that maester Aemon is Aemon Targaryen? No one!

Bloodraven knew, but he got lost beyond The Wall many years ago. Maybe, LC Mormont also knew, but he's dead. And maester Aemon himself told to Jon about his real identity. Thus, those people that knew Old Nan's real origin, are long dead, and she herself didn't revealed who she is to Bran or other Stark-youngsters (Ned for her also was a youngster).

Information becomes lost, and maester Aemon's case is the prove of it.

[kissdbyfire]

6 minutes ago, Megorova said:

Edwyle Stark, Ned's paternal grandfather, was Alysanne's nephew. He, probably, was one of those last people that called Nan by her real name. Edwyle's son, Rickard, called her Nan, while he was a child. And by the time of Ned's birth, everyone called her Old Nan and didn't knew that she used to have a different name. By that time, most likely, Ned's grandfather was either already dead, or old and senile, so he either forgot that Nan's real name is something else, or he used to call her Nan even when she was young, at that time when she was Brandon's wet-nurse (this Brandon was Edwyle's older brother, and he died aged three, from summer chill). Possibly the first person that started to call Alysanne with name Nan, was little Brandon. And after him Edwyle, who was even younger than little Brandon. Edwyle knew that this Nan person is his aunt, and when he grew up and got married and had his own child, this child, Rickard, also knew that this Nan person is his great aunt. But after that nobody cared much, paid any specific attention to it, etc.

People forget, people don't care, information becomes lost.

Who at the Night's Watch knew that maester Aemon is Aemon Targaryen? No one!

Bloodraven knew, but he got lost beyond The Wall many years ago. Maybe, LC Mormont also knew, but he's dead. And maester Aemon himself told to Jon about his real identity. Thus, those people that knew Old Nan's real origin, are long dead, and she herself didn't revealed who she is to Bran or other Stark-youngsters (Ned for her also was a youngster).

Information becomes lost, and maester Aemon's case is the prove of it.

Sorry, but that’s preposterous. Not to mention that it doesn’t make a lick of sense. If ON is family, the family would know. And no, maester Aemon didn’t tell Jon that he was Aemon Targaryen. He told Jon some of his life’s stories, and Jon figured it out, he figured Aemon was AT. “Information becomes lost” isn’t a proper explanation, it’s only more twisted pretzels. And again, no, Maester Aemon’s case doesn’t prove a damn thing.

 

[Megorova]

1 hour ago, kissdbyfire said:

And again, no, Maester Aemon’s case doesn’t prove a damn thing.

Tattered Prince.

"Even the commander of the Windblown kept his true name to himself. Some free companies had been born during the century of blood and chaos that had followed the Doom of Valyria. Others had been formed yesterday and would be gone upon the morrow. The Windblown went back thirty years, and had known but one commander, the soft-spoken, sad-eyed Pentoshi nobleman called the Tattered Prince. His hair and mail were silver-grey, but his ragged cloak was made of twists of cloth of many colors, blue and grey and purple, red and gold and green, magenta and vermilion and cerulean, all faded by the sun. When the Tattered Prince was three-and-twenty, as Dick Straw told the story, the magisters of Pentos had chosen him to be their new prince, hours after beheading their old prince. Instead he’d buckled on a sword, mounted his favorite horse, and fled to the Disputed Lands, never to return. He had ridden with the Second Sons, the Iron Shields, and the Maiden’s Men, then joined with five brothers-in-arms to form the Windblown. Of those six founders, only he survived."

I bet that those other five founders knew his real name, but since their death, information got lost/Tatters doesn't reveal it to anyone.

Thus, if those people, who knew that Old Nan is Alysanne Stark, those people, that were her contemporaries, are all long dead, and she herself doesn't reveal to other people, what her real identity is, then NO ONE KNOWS.

2 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

It seems you work sort of backwards... you have an idea, and then you go back to the text and twist it into a misshapen pretzel - redundancy, since pretzels are misshapen anyway? - to make it fit. Doesn’t really work like that, you know.

Actually I realised who Old Nan really was, while I was trying to figure out how old she could be.

As a reference information we had only that Hodor is her great-grandson. And we don't know precise timeline for majority of family trees in ASOIAF, except the tree of House Targaryen. Thus I used Targaryen tree for reference.

In Nan's family tree we have Hodor, who is her great-grandson, and in Targaryen family tree there's Dany and Rhaegar, with 24 years age difference between them. Their great-grandparents were Aegon V and Betha Blackwood. Though, because Targaryens usually marry and reproduce sooner/younger than people from other Houses, based on this, the people who are Hodor's great-grandparents are slightly older (were born earlier) than Egg and Betha. And you know who is slightly older than Egg? -> It's Duncan. And the tall knight, who was in Bran's tree-vision kissing brown-haired girl at Winterfell, was, most likely, Duncan. And it was happening after D&E3, sometime after 212AC, when D&E went to Winterfell, which will be depicted in "The She-Wolves of Winterfell". GRRM gave some spoilers about what that novel is going to be. He mentioned five Stark-widows. And those widows could be none other than Lorra Royce (Beron Stark's wife/widow), Myriame Manderly (Rodwell's wife/widow; Rodwell who is Beron's brother), Alys Karstark (Brandon Stark's wife; Brandon who is the father of Beron and Rodwell), Serena Stark (Edrik Stark's wife; Edrik who is Brandon's brother and uncle of Beron and Rodwell), and Robyn Ryswell (Jonnel Stark's wife; Jonnel who is brother of Edrik and Brandon, and uncle of Beron and Rodwell). So those five Stark-Lords, that recently died, were three brothers (Jonnel, Edrik and Brandon), and their two nephews (Rodwell and Beron, Brandon's sons). And "The She-Wolves of Winterfell" is about their five widows.

Alysanne's father was one of those five Stark's, that died shortly prior Dunk's arrival to Winterfell (or at that time he was still alive, but slowly dying). So she was vulnerable, and wanted to be comforted, and things happened.

Is that working backwards? Even if it is, it doesn't mean that my conclusions are wrong.

[TheLastWolf]

6 hours ago, Megorova said:

Tattered Prince.

"Even the commander of the Windblown kept his true name to himself. Some free companies had been born during the century of blood and chaos that had followed the Doom of Valyria. Others had been formed yesterday and would be gone upon the morrow. The Windblown went back thirty years, and had known but one commander, the soft-spoken, sad-eyed Pentoshi nobleman called the Tattered Prince. His hair and mail were silver-grey, but his ragged cloak was made of twists of cloth of many colors, blue and grey and purple, red and gold and green, magenta and vermilion and cerulean, all faded by the sun. When the Tattered Prince was three-and-twenty, as Dick Straw told the story, the magisters of Pentos had chosen him to be their new prince, hours after beheading their old prince. Instead he’d buckled on a sword, mounted his favorite horse, and fled to the Disputed Lands, never to return. He had ridden with the Second Sons, the Iron Shields, and the Maiden’s Men, then joined with five brothers-in-arms to form the Windblown. Of those six founders, only he survived."

I bet that those other five founders knew his real name, but since their death, information got lost/Tatters doesn't reveal it to anyone.

IIRC, @Megorovawas the one who proposed the theory that the Tattered Prince was really Rodrik Stark, the Wandering Wolf in the thread about it.

If it's true, we have a character who can verify Old Nan's Identity. 

Spoiler

think that Tattered Prince is Rodrik Stark. Based on this:

 

- both of them used to be members of Second Sons;

 

- many of his people are Westerosi;

 

- Windblown's banner is white and blue, which could be snow and blue winter roses of The North;

 

- grey is traditional color of Starks. Tatters is wearing silver-grey mail. His hair is grey. His warhorse is grey.

 

- "The great grey sailcloth pavilion that the Tattered Prince liked to call his canvas castle". There's no castles in Essos, there are mansions etc., castles is a thing of Westeros;

 

- Windblown are enemies with the Cat company, and their leader seems to be a wildling. If Tatters is a Stark, then their animosity is a given;

 

- Tatters was born in 238 or 239.

 

Rodrik Stark's year of birth in Wikia is based on possible year of death of his father, Beron Stark, which is supposedly 212-226. But there's some sort of mistake in years of death of Beron and his father, Brandon. It's Brandon, not Beron, who died after confrontation with Ironborn, and it happened in 212. Thus, actually there is no information about cause or year of death of Beron Stark, and thus his seven children (the youngest of them was Rodrik) could have been born even after 226, because he didn't died in 226. There's some major mistake and confusion with dates of birth and death in family tree of Starks, starting from after Cregan Stark. So Rodrik can be Tatters, even though his timeline in Wikia doesn't correspond with Tatters'.

 

P.S. Just because they were going to make Tatters next prince of Pentos, doesn't mean that he was local. He could have chosen Pentos as his primary settlement place, and he could have done it either after getting married back in Westeros, or he could have returned to The North, and married after his escape from Pentos. He was going between The North and Disputed Lands, until he established his own sellswords company. That's when he could have permanently left his family. And he wants to get Pentos for whatever reason, whether he is Rodrik Stark or not.

 

[Megorova]

9 hours ago, TheLastWolf said:

IIRC, @Megorovawas the one who proposed the theory that the Tattered Prince was really Rodrik Stark, the Wandering Wolf in the thread about it.

If it's true, we have a character who can verify Old Nan's Identity. 

Old Nan is approximately 101+ years old, while Tatters is approximately 61+, thus, it seems more likely that Tatters is not Alysanne's younger brother, Rodrick Stark, but her nephew.

Every element, based on which I made assumption that Tatters could be Rodrick Stark, is still valid, because all those elements seems to be clues that hint to possibility that Tatters is a Stark, not that he is specifically Rodrick Stark. It makes even more sense for Tatters to be Rodrick's son - he's a wayward/prodigal son of the Wandering Wolf; wayward son - The Parable of the Prodigal Son (also known as the parable of the Two Brothers, Lost Son, Loving Father, or of the Forgiving Father; it's from the Bible, and there are many Biblical elements in ASOIAF).

Prodigal son is like a plant without roots, like a tumbleweed, that gets carried away, wherever the wind takes it, so tumbleweed is windblown, like Tatters' sellsword company, that is named Windblown.

Tumbleweed's other name is rolling stone. The Rolling stones (musical band) has a song "Prodigal Son".

Could be that it's from this song/biblical parable, that GRRM got an idea to write about Wandering Wolf Stark and his prodigal son Tatters.

If Tatters is Nan's/Alysanne's nephew, then he knows who she really is, and he may even know that her child/children were fathered by Duncan the Tall.

Or I could be totally wrong with all my theories. Though, I consider that GRRM is a meticulous writer, that plans every little detail in his books, and thus, it doesn't make sense for Old Nan to be some random unimportant character, if GRRM could have used for her background story elements that connect past and present. What I mean is this, for example, - If Nan is Alysanne Stark, and she had a child/children with Duncan the Tall, and now one of their descendants, Brienne Tarth, is on a mission to find/save one of lost Starks - Sansa, then it all connects (past to present) and makes sense. Isn't it? And if Tattered Prince is Rodrick Stark's son and Nan's/Alysanne's nephew, while Pretty Meris (who, in my opinion, is Brienne's mother, and also Duncan the Tall's descendant) is a member of Windblown sellswords company, led by Tatters, then, when Tatters will arrive to Westeros, he will eventually go to Winterfell, to reconnect with other Starks, and he will bring Meris with him, and at that time Meris' daughter, Brienne, also will be at Winterfell, because she will bring Sansa there, and they all will have there a family reunion <- Brienne, Meris, Tatters, Old Nan/Alysanne, Sansa.

Makes sense, doesn't it?

[Frey family reunion]

I think Old Nan is the counterpoint to Maester Luwin.  It calls to mind a quote from one of my favorite books, The Hitch-Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy.  

Quote

“In many of the more relaxed civilizations on the Outer Eastern Rim of the Galaxy, the Hitch-Hiker's Guide has already supplanted the great Encyclopedia Galactica as the standard repository of all knowledge and wisdom, for though it has many omissions and contains much that is apocryphal, or at least wildly inaccurate, it scores over the older, more pedestrian work in two important respects.  First it is slightly cheaper; and secondly it has the words DON'T PANIC inscribed in large friendly letters on its covers.

Maester Luwin's history lessons are probably more accurate than Nan's but hers are a lot more fun.

[TheLastWolf]

This recent thread about Dunk and Egg prompted this. 

Would we ever get an answer to Nan's Identity coz GRRM believes in not happy endings very much. Loves em. 

With fire and blood two, TWOW, ADOS, TV series (abomination) prequel, will we ever get the next Dunk and egg?