Barristan the Bold

[Loras]

This thread is born from a discussion in the 2021 thread regarding Barristan.

 

On ‘Ser Barristan’ in TWOW.

“[Hizdahr] gave her peace. Do not throw it away, Ser, I beg you.  Peace is the pearl beyond price.”

The Green Grace, The Queen’s Hand, ‘A Dance with Dragons’.

 

As ‘A Dance with Dragons’ draws to a close, Ser Barristan Selmy with the assistance of his ally, Skahaz mo Kandaq, lead Meereen into renewed conflict with Yunkai.  The Ghiscari king, Hizdahr zo Loraq, has been overthrown in a coup, and is now a prisoner.

Hizdahr, through Daenerys, was influential in brokering a peace with the Yunkai (Daenerys VIII) and appears to be out of his depth in maintaining that peace following Dany’s flight from Meereen.  The Yunkai’i supreme leaders appear to be keen on maintaining the peace, executing Dany’s least valuable hostage and returning Hizdahr’s kin.

Yet Barristan, despite suffering self doubt throughout his viewpoint arc, is determined to lead the Queen’s armies to war.

The purpose of this thread is to speculate on both a literary and meta level about the role of Ser Barristan in ‘The Winds of Winter’.

 

As a starter for 10:

In ADWD, Barristan’s chapters are titled.  Barristan finds himself in an uncomfortable position where he no longer fulfils the role that he designates for himself.  He goes through an identity crisis, moving from an observer to a clumsy player of the game of thrones.

From TWOW, we see that his chapters are given the heading ‘Ser Barristan’.  He seems to have reclaimed his identity in these new chapters focusing on the Battle for Meereen. Unlike any other character in the story, Barristan retains his title - ‘Ser’. 

Does this indicate that Barristan, unlike Jaime and Arys, thinks of himself as a true knight? Does it give us a clue about Barristan’s fate in ‘Winds’?  The true knight actually being cast as a traitor?

Two of Barristan’s character traits are his arrogance and recklessness.  In his second sample chapter, the report indicates that Barristan intends to strike the first blow himself, despite being the commander.  Comparing this to Tywin or Stannis, it appears that Barristan is seeking glory.

A second question relates to his future after these two chapters.  It seems reasonably likely  that Barristan will have at least one more chapter - especially if, as many believe, Skahaz intends to purge the Meereenese nobles and close the gates on Barristan.

For me, I think that Barristan will be the viewpoint for the aftermath of the battle.  He links all of the current plots, moving pieces, and new characters in Meereen.  To me, this makes him the logical viewpoint to navigate a tricky first chapter following the battle where the characters all come together again without tonnes of new introductions taking the pace out of the novel.

 

What are your thoughts on Barristan’s actions? His fate in the battle of fire, and beyond? 

[Hodor the Articulate]

I think 'Ser Barristan' is simply him feeling like a knight again. He was pretty lost in the Meereenese court but now's back on the battlefield, doing what he knows best. That's why he's leading the charge instead of commanding from the back, where there's relative safety.

It looks like with the Second Sons and the Windblown switching sides + the Ironborn, the battle will be won. I doubt Barristan will die in Slavers Bay. Or at least, I hope not, or his character will have been pretty pointless.

[Loras]

On 7/8/2020 at 8:25 AM, Hodor the Articulate said:

I think 'Ser Barristan' is simply him feeling like a knight again. He was pretty lost in the Meereenese court but now's back on the battlefield, doing what he knows best. That's why he's leading the charge instead of commanding from the back, where there's relative safety

I think that you are right insofar as he is feeling more secure in his identity.  Each of his monikers, unlike say Arya or Asha, is a title or position.  Queensguard, (Discarded) Knight, Queen’s Hand, and Kingbreaker which is a deliberate contrast to Ser Criston Cole.

He seems to be a man defined by position and status rather than his own character.  Which contrasts to Jaime, who is moving toward becoming ‘Goldenhand the Just’ - perhaps.

Leading from the front, and determination to strike the first blow, feels like he is pushing against his current role by trying to find some symbolism in his contribution to the battle.  His own doubts about his political role have strong storm/foreboding symbolism - and the sun comes out just in time for the battle.

it is clear that to Barristan, his title is of equal if not more importance than his name.

On 7/8/2020 at 8:25 AM, Hodor the Articulate said:

It looks like with the Second Sons and the Windblown switching sides + the Ironborn, the battle will be won. I doubt Barristan will die in Slavers Bay. Or at least, I hope not, or his character will have been pretty pointless.

There are still the elephants, crossbowmen, and slingers that we don’t have too much information about - and the camels.  There is also the potentially game changing moment of the dragonhorn still to come.

I think that Daenerys should judge Barristan for his actions in Meereen.  It is important that he faces the consequences of destroying the peace in Meereen.  I don’t think this would be thematically pointless - Feast and Dance both examine the role of knighthood.  I would argue that Barristan and Quentyn are triumphs in ‘Dance’, their arcs are so well developed and completed.

[Hodor the Articulate]

4 minutes ago, Loras said:

I think that Daenerys should judge Barristan for his actions in Meereen.  It is important that he faces the consequences of destroying the peace in Meereen.  I don’t think this would be thematically pointless - Feast and Dance both examine the role of knighthood.  I would argue that Barristan and Quentyn are triumphs in ‘Dance’, their arcs are so well developed and completed.

I don't think Daenerys is going to be too bummed out by the war resuming. She's clearly formed a plan involving the Dothraki, after all. It was inevitable, anyway, as Volantis never scrapping their plans to sack Meereen.

There could be an argument made for Barristan's character arc being done, but I was thinking more about his role in the overall plot. Quentyn gave us exposition, frees the dragons, convinces the Windblown to switch allegiance, and sets up a conflict between Dorne and Daenerys. I want Barristan to at least tell us/Dany more about Aerys (maybe even the Aegon V reign) before he kicks it.

[Loras]

On 7/9/2020 at 10:11 AM, Hodor the Articulate said:

I don't think Daenerys is going to be too bummed out by the war resuming. She's clearly formed a plan involving the Dothraki, after all. It was inevitable, anyway, as Volantis never scrapping their plans to sack Meereen.

I don’t think that the war was inevitable - and I think that for Daenerys to accept that war was inevitable is actually really sad, I think in the Dothraki sea she has realised that she can be the ‘dragon’ and achieve peace through a conqueror’s method.

Again, much has been made of the Volantene soldiers being slave soldiers.  Dany doesn’t want to kill slaves, she wants to liberate them.  That aspect of her personality hasn’t changed. Barristan even recognised this when he says to not aim for the slaves - though he appears to go on to do this.

Hizdahr is a good ruler for Meereen, I think taking him out will not go favourably for either Skahaz or Barristan.

On 7/9/2020 at 10:11 AM, Hodor the Articulate said:

want Barristan to at least tell us/Dany more about Aerys (maybe even the Aegon V reign) before he kicks it.

I don’t think Barristan’s story arc is done either - I was talking about his book arc in Dance rather than his whole arc as a character.

i really want to know more from him about Rhaegar, Ashara, and Rhaella.  I think we might also find out a little bit more from Duskendale... but who knows.  His use to the reader as a source of past history is huge!

[Hodor the Articulate]

12 hours ago, Loras said:

I don’t think that the war was inevitable - and I think that for Daenerys to accept that war was inevitable is actually really sad, I think in the Dothraki sea she has realised that she can be the ‘dragon’ and achieve peace through a conqueror’s method.

Again, much has been made of the Volantene soldiers being slave soldiers.  Dany doesn’t want to kill slaves, she wants to liberate them.  That aspect of her personality hasn’t changed. Barristan even recognised this when he says to not aim for the slaves - though he appears to go on to do this.

Hizdahr is a good ruler for Meereen, I think taking him out will not go favourably for either Skahaz or Barristan.

It's more that I think war was inevitable. I don't know if Dany realised that, since she isn't privy the info we got about the Volantene galleys heading to Slavers Bay. I do agree, though, that Dany ultimately decided true peace would be achieved through conquer. Hence, I doubt she'll be upset at Skahaz or Barristan if they kill Hizdahr. He could never be a ruler for her people, the freedmen.

12 hours ago, Loras said:

I don’t think Barristan’s story arc is done either - I was talking about his book arc in Dance rather than his whole arc as a character.

i really want to know more from him about Rhaegar, Ashara, and Rhaella.  I think we might also find out a little bit more from Duskendale... but who knows.  His use to the reader as a source of past history is huge!

I forgot Ashara was part of his storyline...

Yes, there's a wealth of history inside his noggin. He needs to live a bit longer. GRRM owes us after killing off Maester Aemon!

[Lord Varys]

I'd not be surprised if Barristan remained with us for a long time. There is much potential for conflict there if he were to be confronted with Jaime in the future, not to mention his own thoughts on the whole Aegon dilemma. He could even survive the entire series. Not all old people have to die. He may no longer be a great knight when they finally get to Westeros, but he should still command, oversee, train - as he does in ADwD.

And I'm really looking forward to his lads. It was a great idea of George's to have him train knights in Meereen.

Many people already thought he would die in ADwD, so my money isn't on him dying in the next book, either. In fact, I don't expect (m)any POVs to die in TWoW. Victarion is in considerable danger, as are, technically, Theon and Aeron, but I expect both of them will get through. And I very much doubt George is going to kill Asha. If POVs are all at the same place, they don't have to die to reduce the number of chapters, George could just switch back and forth inadequately - say, one Barristan chapter for three Tyrion chapters, one Brienne chapter for two Jaime chapters, etc. getting the same total number of chapters for the same story he would have gotten if had written the story from just a single POV.

Also, it is clear that aside from background information from the reign of Aerys II, Jaehaerys II, and even Aegon V Barristan is also going to give us an account of his time with Illyrio Mopatis. He has yet to tell us about how it came that he left Westeros and visited Illyrio and how he spent his time there, what he saw there, and what he learned from/about him. He might have some puzzle pieces even he himself doesn't know about yet.

We don't know exactly Dany's reasoning for going to the Dothraki. We don't know enough about that choice or her intentions. All we can say is that she felt and finally realized something she had always known (the images of Viserys and Jorah she is talking with is she herself telling her things she knows deep down already) - namely, that her trying to plant trees in Meereen, presiding over a corrupt and wrong peace in a city where the former slavers didn't really want her, was completely wrong. She shouldn't have lingered there, she shouldn't have imprisoned her dragons, and she shouldn't have married Hizdahr and allowed the Meereenese and Yunkai'i to ruin everything she accomplished for the former slaves.

But what it means, politically, for her to go to the Dothraki and what she wants to do with them is completely unclear.

We don't even know whether she has a plan - it is entirely possible she just acted on instinct there, sort of like she did when she jumped into the pyre, just feeling deep down it is the right thing to do, but not knowing what she will do when the Dothraki find her or what she is going to do when she is with them or brought back to Vaes Dothrak. She might not even know that they will want to take her there - or it might be her intention to get there.

If it was, her decision may want to take her place among the dosh khaleen as his duty as the khaleesi of a dead khal. It is not very likely she would want to stay there forever, but she may think that 'to go forward I have to go back' means to finish this plot thread from her past with the Dothraki.

It may turn out that the dosh khaleen and other Dothraki are the ones who think that she, Daenerys Targaryen, is the Stallion Who Mounts the World, and not she herself. She might be overwhelmed by that idea and reject it at first and perhaps only embrace it stay alive/exact her revenge against Jhaqo and Mago.

But I don't think Meereen and the situation there will be at the forefront of her mind in all that. She will realize that she is eventually going to return to Slaver's Bay with the Dothraki, but I don't think this will be her top priority - in part because she deliberately chose not to continue to go back to Meereen, in part because I don't think the Dothraki will just cheer her in 1-2 chapters and gladly do everything she says. Taking control of them and becoming their ruler is going to be long and tedious process which is very going to span most or even all of her chapters in TWoW. And even once that's done she is not suddenly going to teleport to another place with her armies.

Instead, I think, she might learn about what transpired in Slaver's Bay either by flying back to Meereen on Drogon to check on the people there, or, perhaps even more likely, will be visited by the riders of Rhaegal and/or Viserion in Vaes Dothrak. And by that time the Volantenes will have arrived, the battles will have been won, and the internal conspiracies and plots in Meereen will be uncovered - most likely by Barristan, Skahaz, and Tyrion working together to get to the bottom of things.

To get back to the topic at hand - I think if Dany came back tomorrow she would likely be quite pissed what Barristan did, both because of the arrest of Hizdahr as well as the end of the peace. But that would change five minutes later when she was informed about the reasons behind all that - the death Yurkhaz and Yezzan, the warmongering among the Yunkish Allies, the threat of the Volantenes, the poisoning plot and Hizdahr's likely involvement, the plan to kill the imprisoned dragons, the way how Hizdahr and Reznak treated her people after her disappearance, the plan to frame Quentyn for the poisoning plot, etc.

What she still isn't going to agree before she has spoken with Tatters in person is Barristan's promise that they will give him Pentos. And if Tatters/Barristan/Tyrion/anyone doesn't give her a reason why she should help a sellsword captain to conquer a city where one of her friends is living she is not likely to sign off on that.

But that would be the only contentious issue - and that only if Tatters doesn't tell her things about Illyrio that are going to change her mind.

[Loras]

On 7/11/2020 at 9:08 AM, Hodor the Articulate said:

I do agree, though, that Dany ultimately decided true peace would be achieved through conquer. Hence, I doubt she'll be upset at Skahaz or Barristan if they kill Hizdahr. He could never be a ruler for her people, the freedmen.

I don’t really agree with this - Hizdahr throughout Dance showed willing to accept and work with Dany’s ideas, even those that went against Ghiscari tradition.  While I don’t think that he would be a wonderful ruler for Meereen, I do think that Dany would put him in charge.

Hizdahr would be a better ruler of Meereen than any of the other characters that we have been introduced to in that area.  Particularly Skahaz, who I believe to be behind the locusts and other attacks.

12 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

And I'm really looking forward to his lads. It was a great idea of George's to have him train knights in Meereen.

This was a really interesting aspect of his story in ‘Dance’.  His relationship with them is even more important in the sample chapter too, his speech about battle really does emphasise to me his tendency to romanticise the horror of war.

 

12 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Many people already thought he would die in ADwD, so my money isn't on him dying in the next book, either. In fact, I don't expect (m)any POVs to die in TWoW. Victarion is in considerable danger, as are, technically, Theon and Aeron, but I expect both of them will get through. And I very much doubt George is going to kill Asha. If POVs are all at the same place, they don't have to die to reduce the number of chapters, George could just switch back and forth inadequately - say, one Barristan chapter for three Tyrion chapters, one Brienne chapter for two Jaime chapters, etc. getting the same total number of chapters for the same story he would have gotten if had written the story from just a single POV.

I was thinking about this the other day actually, about how George will rotate the viewpoints when there are overlaps.  I think it would be more effective if in the case of Jaime and Brienne (for example) he stuck with one viewpoint until they separate and then fill in the blanks and thoughts of the other character.  So: tell the story from Jamie’s viewpoint and reflect on it in Brienne’s viewpoint.  In a story that is as tightly knit as that, I think it would be distracting to be rotating the viewpoint as well.

Meereen however would be similar to Tyrion/Sansa and then Tyrion/Jaime inhabiting the same place and giving different views on the same/similar plot beats.  The Meereen plot in Dance picked up steam when we were going between Barristan and Quentyn, with Tyrion supplementing.

12 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Also, it is clear that aside from background information from the reign of Aerys II, Jaehaerys II, and even Aegon V Barristan is also going to give us an account of his time with Illyrio Mopatis. He has yet to tell us about how it came that he left Westeros and visited Illyrio and how he spent his time there, what he saw there, and what he learned from/about him. He might have some puzzle pieces even he himself doesn't know about yet.

This is an aspect of his story that I hadn’t really considered, and would expect more detail on soon.  A good question for me would be why did Illyrio send Barristan to Dany and not Aegon?

12 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

But I don't think Meereen and the situation there will be at the forefront of her mind in all that. She will realize that she is eventually going to return to Slaver's Bay with the Dothraki, but I don't think this will be her top priority - in part because she deliberately chose not to continue to go back to Meereen, in part because I don't think the Dothraki will just cheer her in 1-2 chapters and gladly do everything she says. Taking control of them and becoming their ruler is going to be long and tedious process which is very going to span most or even all of her chapters in TWoW. And even once that's done she is not suddenly going to teleport to another place with her armies.

I think she will continue to think back to those that she has left behind - part of her identity is this mother persona that she has cultivated.  While she was really ground down by ruling in Dance she still has a duty to her people and I don’t see that going away.

I agree with you that she is going to spend a significant number of chapters with the Dothraki - and I personally don’t buy into a lot of the Dany is going to spend the next book burning tonnes of cities to the ground thing. If her own khalasar finds her, which they might if she is in Vaes Dothrak, she would surely face a decision about going back to Meereen or staying put?  They would have some news of post-Dany Meereen - though none of the significant events.

12 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

What she still isn't going to agree before she has spoken with Tatters in person is Barristan's promise that they will give him Pentos. And if Tatters/Barristan/Tyrion/anyone doesn't give her a reason why she should help a sellsword captain to conquer a city one of her friends live she is not likely to sign off on that.

But that would be the only contentious issue - and that only if Tatters doesn't tell her things about Illyrio that are going to change her mind.

Yes, it seems likely that the Tattered Prince is going to have to have a discussion with Tyrion/Barristan/Dany about the role of Illyrio.  The question would remain about how limited Tatters’ knowledge is on the subject though.

At some point we, as readers, and the characters need to be able to pinpoint Illyrio’s motives... both Barristan and JonCon need to give us a bit more background on this conspiracy.

[Lord Varys]

6 hours ago, Loras said:

I don’t really agree with this - Hizdahr throughout Dance showed willing to accept and work with Dany’s ideas, even those that went against Ghiscari tradition.  While I don’t think that he would be a wonderful ruler for Meereen, I do think that Dany would put him in charge.

Hizdahr would be a better ruler of Meereen than any of the other characters that we have been introduced to in that area.  Particularly Skahaz, who I believe to be behind the locusts and other attacks.

Oh, no! You are completely wrong about that. Hizdahr is part of the anti-Dany/pro-slavery faction in Meereen and he is involved/complicit in the poisoning attempt. This is implicitly confirmed with the whole spicey food clue:

Quote

The queen was framing her response when she heard a step behind her. The food, she thought. Her cooks had promised her to serve the noble Hizdahr’s favorite meal, dog in honey, stuffed with prunes and peppers. But when she turned to look, it was Ser Barristan standing there, freshly bathed and clad in white, his longsword at his side.

[...]

Hizdahr had stocked their box with flagons of chilled wine and sweetwater, with figs, dates, melons, and pomegranates, with pecans and peppers and a big bowl of honeyed locusts. Strong Belwas bellowed, “Locusts!” as he seized the bowl and began to crunch them by the handful.

“Those are very tasty,” advised Hizdahr. “You ought to try a few yourself, my love. They are rolled in spice before the honey, so they are sweet and hot at once.”

“That explains the way Belwas is sweating,” Dany said. “I believe I will content myself with figs and dates.”

[...]

“Was the poison your work, Magnificence?”

King Hizdahr backed away a step. “The locusts? That … that was the Dornishman. Quentyn, the so-called prince. Ask Reznak if you doubt me.”

“Have you proof of that? Has Reznak?”

“No, else I would have had them seized. Perhaps I should do so in any case. Marghaz will wring a confession out of them, I do not doubt. They’re all poisoners, these Dornish. Reznak says they worship snakes.”

“They eat snakes,” said Ser Barristan. “It was your pit, your box, your seats. Sweet wine and soft cushions, figs and melons and honeyed locusts. You provided all. You urged Her Grace to try the locusts but never tasted one yourself.”

“I … hot spices do not agree with me. She was my wife. My queen. Why would I want to poison her?”

Was, he says. He believes her dead. “Only you can answer that, Magnificence. It might be that you wished to put another woman in her place.” Ser Barristan nodded at the girl peering timidly from the bedchamber. “That one, perhaps?”

The king looked around wildly. “Her? She’s nothing. A bedslave.” He raised his hands. “I misspoke. Not a slave. A free woman. Trained in pleasure. Even a king has needs, she … she is none of your concern, ser. I would never harm Daenerys. Never.”

“You urged the queen to try the locusts. I heard you.”

“I thought she might enjoy them.” Hizdahr retreated another step. “Hot and sweet at once.”

There are other clues, of course, but Hizdahr's lie about his preference for hot and spicey food pretty much give it all away. His favorite food include peppers, he knows how the locusts taste and seems to like them as well (although not the time he offers them to Daenerys), and then he makes a lie about his food preferences.

This is the kind of thing we get for Lysa's involvement in the murder of Jon Arryn back in AGoT with the confusion whose ward Robert Arryn was supposed to be - Stannis' or Tywin's. Combined with the fact that Lysa fights with teeth and claws anybody who tries to take her son away from her it is quite clear that Jon's decision to send Robert to Dragonstone is what provided Lysa with a motive to murder her husband.

With Hizdahr we have a clue that he lied about his preference for spicey food, the locusts, which means there is another reason why he refused to eat taste them - his knowledge that they were poisoned.

[Damn, now I'd to taste honeyed locusts myself...]

Any theories suspecting that Skahaz might be involved there don't have a similar basis in text, not to mention that he is lacking a motive. While the Green Grace as 'the Harpy' - if such a person exists - has ample motive to remove her from the board. It might even be that Yurkhaz zo Yunzak demanded to watch Dany dying of poison while he attended opening of the Pit. It could have been part of the agreement Hizdahr and the Yunkai'i reached. By making Hizdahr Dany's king consort and co-ruler they also had a guy in place to take over the new monarchistic Meereen system. It is also rather obvious that Hizdahr wants to restore slavery to Meereen as his remark about the bedslave indicates.

What complicates things for them after the Pit is simply the fact that Yurkhaz is trampled to death - and Yezzan dies shortly afterwards, too - and thus the Wise Masters in favor of peace and with the greatest influence amongst their peers are dead. Meaning that despite Dany's disappearance things no longer stand as well between the Meereenese and the Yunkish Allies as they were before. The sellswords want their spoils, they all want to see the dragons dead, and everybody fears the arrival of the Volantenes.

6 hours ago, Loras said:

This was a really interesting aspect of his story in ‘Dance’.  His relationship with them is even more important in the sample chapter too, his speech about battle really does emphasise to me his tendency to romanticise the horror of war.

Well, he really likes his trade.

6 hours ago, Loras said:

I was thinking about this the other day actually, about how George will rotate the viewpoints when there are overlaps.  I think it would be more effective if in the case of Jaime and Brienne (for example) he stuck with one viewpoint until they separate and then fill in the blanks and thoughts of the other character.  So: tell the story from Jamie’s viewpoint and reflect on it in Brienne’s viewpoint.  In a story that is as tightly knit as that, I think it would be distracting to be rotating the viewpoint as well.

But he did that back when everybody was at Winterfell or in KL, too. It is actually pretty boring when you have just one POV per place, especially when a lot of thing must happen there, i.e. when we are talking about a city or a large court.

6 hours ago, Loras said:

This is an aspect of his story that I hadn’t really considered, and would expect more detail on soon.  A good question for me would be why did Illyrio send Barristan to Dany and not Aegon?

Yeah, that's something we would like to know. Or why he didn't tell Barristan about Aegon so he could tell Dany about him? But Barristan may have seen or heard something connected to the Aegon plan, something he might recall when Tyrion tells him about Aegon and Connington.

The point of Barristan's mission was the bring Dany back - but that's something any person in Illyrio's service could have done. Especially since he didn't actually reveal his true identity at first.

6 hours ago, Loras said:

I think she will continue to think back to those that she has left behind - part of her identity is this mother persona that she has cultivated.  While she was really ground down by ruling in Dance she still has a duty to her people and I don’t see that going away.

I don't think it is going to get away completely, but it is taking a back seat now. We cannot assume that she turned to the Dothraki to get back to Meereen - she turned to them because she didn't want to continue her walk back there.

6 hours ago, Loras said:

I agree with you that she is going to spend a significant number of chapters with the Dothraki - and I personally don’t buy into a lot of the Dany is going to spend the next book burning tonnes of cities to the ground thing. If her own khalasar finds her, which they might if she is in Vaes Dothrak, she would surely face a decision about going back to Meereen or staying put?  They would have some news of post-Dany Meereen - though none of the significant events.

Oh, I think they are going to burn cities after Dany has taken over the Dothraki - the Dothraki will want their Stallion to conquer them some more cities, especially such cities they could never conquer before like Qohor and Qarth - but that's not going to be happening soon.

The Slaver's Bay situation should resolve itself as I pointed out above. As soon as the Volantenes are there and the slave soldiers join Dany, they are likely to destroy Yunkai and then continue to destroy New Ghis and Tolos and Mantarys and whatever places where part of the anti-Dany coalition. They will have the ships and manpower and dragons to do so.

6 hours ago, Loras said:

Yes, it seems likely that the Tattered Prince is going to have to have a discussion with Tyrion/Barristan/Dany about the role of Illyrio.  The question would remain about how limited Tatters’ knowledge is on the subject though.

He will know some things, Tyrion will know others, and Barristan will know some things as well. Together they might know enough to conclude that Illyrio isn't all that trustworthy after all and they might be able to figure out who Aegon might be if he isn't Rhaegar's son.

One has to keep in mind that Barristan Selmy remembers the War of the Ninepenny Kings and Maelys Blackfyre - he slew the man, after all. He could also have knowledge about Maelys' siblings, children, cousins, etc. And the Tattered Prince is old enough to have fought in that war, too - or know stuff from back then. The fact that we don't know his name also could indicate the man actually might be familar to Barristan Selmy.

And Barristan will also have to give us more information on the Joanna-Aerys thing and whether Tyrion is or might be actually the Mad King's bastard. If there is a character who might know this it is Barristan Selmy. And Hizdahr cuts Barristan short when he talks about what may or may not have been between Joanna and Aerys:

Quote

“And my father? Was there some woman he loved better than his queen?”

Ser Barristan shifted in the saddle. “Not … not loved. Mayhaps wanted is a better word, but … it was only kitchen gossip, the whispers of washerwomen and stableboys …”

“I want to know. I never knew my father. I want to know everything about him. The good and … the rest.”

“As you command.” The white knight chose his words with care. “Prince Aerys … as a youth, he was taken with a certain lady of Casterly Rock, a cousin of Tywin Lannister. When she and Tywin wed, your father drank too much wine at the wedding feast and was heard to say that it was a great pity that the lord’s right to the first night had been abolished. A drunken jape, no more, but Tywin Lannister was not a man to forget such words, or the … the liberties your father took during the bedding.” His face reddened. “I have said too much, Your Grace. I—”

And in light of that it is also noteworthy that Tyrion-Barristan never remember each other in their POVs nor have they interacted so far. The main reason, possibly the only reason I can see why Barristan should not immediately put Tyrion to death or at least arrest or send him away is if he were to know or suspect that he would attack one of Dany's blood relatives doing this.

This is not an issue Barristan has to raise while Tyrion isn't there, but when he (and Dany) are confronted with Tyrion he could not possibly remain longer silent about things he might know. And even if he never witnessed Aerys-Joanna having sex at the right time, he could be privy to talks the Mad King had with Joanna or Tywin or others about this whole thing.

[Hodor the Articulate]

12 hours ago, Loras said:

I don’t really agree with this - Hizdahr throughout Dance showed willing to accept and work with Dany’s ideas, even those that went against Ghiscari tradition.  While I don’t think that he would be a wonderful ruler for Meereen, I do think that Dany would put him in charge.

Hizdahr would be a better ruler of Meereen than any of the other characters that we have been introduced to in that area.  Particularly Skahaz, who I believe to be behind the locusts and other attacks.

IMO it's more like Dany was willing to work with Hizdahr's ideas. It was not her idea to reopen the fighting pits or to have the slave trade resume in Yunkai and Astapor or even to marry. I don't want to speculate too much on how Dany will run things in Meereen in the future (it could be the city won't even exist soon) but I think it's fairly evident she's never liked Hizdahr, and would have never made him a king had she not been caught between the Harpy's murders and war with Yunkai. So I doubt she's going to punish Barristan.

I'm familiar with the theory that Skahaz served the poisoned locusts and will lock Barristan out of Meereen. I find it completely unconvincing though. Skahaz was from a lesser House and gained a lot of power through Daenerys. With Dany gone, not only does he lose all his newfound power, he's also lost protection against the other nobles, who consider him a traitor. We already saw this starting, with the Brazen Beasts being replaced by Hizdahr's men immediately after Dany disappears. He might be wrong about Hizdahr but it was in his interests to keep Dany alive and in charge. He also gains nothing from ousting Barristan, who is his only ally in Meereen.

12 hours ago, Loras said:

I was thinking about this the other day actually, about how George will rotate the viewpoints when there are overlaps.  I think it would be more effective if in the case of Jaime and Brienne (for example) he stuck with one viewpoint until they separate and then fill in the blanks and thoughts of the other character.  So: tell the story from Jamie’s viewpoint and reflect on it in Brienne’s viewpoint.  In a story that is as tightly knit as that, I think it would be distracting to be rotating the viewpoint as well.

Meereen however would be similar to Tyrion/Sansa and then Tyrion/Jaime inhabiting the same place and giving different views on the same/similar plot beats.  The Meereen plot in Dance picked up steam when we were going between Barristan and Quentyn, with Tyrion supplementing.

I wonder if he might just drop a character's pov? I don't think he's done this before, but there's no rule that says he has to keep a character as a pov, or that he has to kill that character to get rid of their pov.

[Loras]

7 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Oh, no! You are completely wrong about that. Hizdahr is part of the anti-Dany/pro-slavery faction in Meereen and he is involved/complicit in the poisoning attempt. This is implicitly confirmed with the whole spicey food clue:

Hizdahr is much more liberal than the ‘Old Masters’, and his power as Barristan points out stems from Daenerys.

The section that you have quoted about Hizdahr’s favourite dishes is ambiguous at best.  Those stuffed peppers could as easily be bell peppers - not spicy - as chilli peppers which are spicy.  Looking at the other foods on that list, I can’t speak for dog, but the rest indicate an indulgent and sweet palate.

I don’t think that the Hizdahr that we see on page, through his interactions either with Dany or with Barristan / the court scene, would be capable of orchestrating a plot to poison Dany.  He is a shrewd businessman, not a cold blooded killer.

3 hours ago, Hodor the Articulate said:

IMO it's more like Dany was willing to work with Hizdahr's ideas. It was not her idea to reopen the fighting pits or to have the slave trade resume in Yunkai and Astapor or even to marry. I don't want to speculate too much on how Dany will run things in Meereen in the future (it could be the city won't even exist soon) but I think it's fairly evident she's never liked Hizdahr,

I don’t think that she liked Hizdahr either.  There was definitely compromise there though, Hizdahr put aside some of the important traditions of Ghiscari weddings.  While the fighting pits are open, the fighters are free men.

We do see his frustration about certain things - particularly in Dany IX when he does have some power.  Such as his response to Dany cancelling the follies - but he does go along with it.

3 hours ago, Hodor the Articulate said:

I'm familiar with the theory that Skahaz served the poisoned locusts and will lock Barristan out of Meereen. I find it completely unconvincing though. Skahaz was from a lesser House and gained a lot of power through Daenerys. With Dany gone, not only does he lose all his newfound power, he's also lost protection against the other nobles, who consider him a traitor. We already saw this starting, with the Brazen Beasts being replaced by Hizdahr's men immediately after Dany disappears. He might be wrong about Hizdahr but it was in his interests to keep Dany alive and in charge. He also gains nothing from ousting Barristan, who is his only ally in Meereen.

I don’t think that Skahaz was trying to poison Dany though, I think he was trying to poison Hizdahr.  You are right, he gained a lot of power through Dany but he lost it when Hizdahr gained power.

Importantly, Skahaz’s dismissal happens some time before Dany IX, as she reflects on Hizdahr replacing Skahaz.  In that chapter Barristan and Dany discuss not knowing who is beneath the masks of the Brazen Beasts. I think it is entirely plausible that Skahaz was there.  
 

I do swing back and forth on the whole locking Barristan out of Meereen thing.  I do expect Skahaz to make a move during the battle to remove some of the nobles or kill the hostages and weaken the greater houses.  He may even have Hizdahr killed.

I’m definitely not trying to argue that Hizdahr is a good guy - not at all - but he is being given a lot of credit for something that he, in my opinion, isn’t capable of.  The Green Grace was the brains behind the political operation, Hizdahr is a shrewd businessman, Skahaz is a loose cannon definitely capable of orchestrating a poisoning.  I think that the Green Grace is motivated by restoring peace, while Skahaz is looking to extend his personal power.  When his power was threatened he struck out.

3 hours ago, Hodor the Articulate said:

wonder if he might just drop a character's pov? I don't think he's done this before, but there's no rule that says he has to keep a character as a pov, or that he has to kill that character to get rid of their pov

I guess Theon being dropped from ASOS is the only example, I assume this was planned but I wasn’t part of the fandom back then.

 
Restructure of ADWD led to Arianne and Aeron being dropped from that book, but as non-major viewpoints at that point they probably don’t count!

I do think that Brienne won’t get any chapters for a good chunk of the book.  The blanks will be filled in at a later date? 
 

8 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

But he did that back when everybody was at Winterfell or in KL, too. It is actually pretty boring when you have just one POV per place, especially when a lot of thing must happen there, i.e. when we are talking about a city or a large court.

I completely agree with you on this, we have discussed the need for a second viewpoint in KL at the start of Winds due to the limitations of Cersei’s viewpoint.

Tyrion, Barristan, and Victarion will in all likelihood be telling us the story of Meereen in the aftermath of the battle.  However, the characters would need to have their own separate stories as well as the main drama - this would follow Martin’s style of using multiple viewpoints in one location (Sansa/Tyrion being the best example).

All this being said, the richness that is derived from having overlapping viewpoints is something I’m super excited about!  I’m sure that highlights of the series for many occur when viewpoints overlap - the Red Wedding, Cat and Tyrion in the Eyrie, The Purple Wedding and aftermath...

I’ll address the other points raised shortly... writing on a mobile isn’t the easiest!

[SeanF]

I've a fairly open mind about whether the attempt to poison Daenerys was real (in which case, the Green Grace and Hizdahr are the likeliest suspects) or whether it was intended to force her hand (in which case, Skahaz is the likeliest suspect).

I don't believe that the peace with the Slavers - as a whole - was real.  The Yunkish lords called in the Volantenes, at the end of ASOS, and certainly never disclosed this fact to Daenerys or her allies, during the course of negotiations.  Nor did they ever send emissaries to the Volantenes urging them to turn back (Tyrion notes that most lords are waiting for them to arrive, before resuming the fight).  That has to call their good faith into question.  The Volantenes themselves are clear-sighted enough to realise that a Free Meereen has to be stamped out, lest their own slaves be emboldened.  

I can accept that some Meereenese and Yunkish masters might be uneasy at the prospect of the regional superpower sending an armada to Slavers Bay, but war was inevitable once the Volantenes set sail.  Once Skahaz and Barristan received that information, it would be far too dangerous to allow Hizdahr to remain in power.  If the armada turns up, and he's offered a choice between being made their client king and reinstating slavery, or fighting to keep Meereen free, what's he going to decide?

[broken one]

On 7/7/2020 at 8:44 PM, Loras said:

  The Yunkai’i supreme leaders appear to be keen on maintaining the peace,

vey disputable

On 7/7/2020 at 8:44 PM, Loras said:

especially if, as many believe, Skahaz intends to purge the Meereenese nobles and close the gates on Barristan.

If he closes the gates on Barristan he will be purged by the Meereenese nobles, I am sure he knows it. The moment Barristan troops leave city is critical for existence of his faction.

Many believe he is soon to be dead, I dunno why. I hope he survives the nex book.

 

[Loras]

11 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

And in light of that it is also noteworthy that Tyrion-Barristan never remember each other in their POVs nor have they interacted so far. The main reason, possibly the only reason I can see why Barristan should not immediately put Tyrion to death or at least arrest or send him away is if he were to know or suspect that he would attack one of Dany's blood relatives doing this.

This is true, though I think it is also highly likely that they interacted during the events directly before AGOT begins.

I think that it is likely that Barristan will arrest Tyrion, he is thought to have killed Joffrey and known to have killed Tywin - though I can’t recall whether this news has made it to Meereen or not.  Barristan has Hizdahr arrested rather than having him executed and I think it likely he would behave the same way for another of his queen’s enemies.  Brown Ben Plumm and Jorah are also both likely to have some sort of reckoning with Barristan - would he execute Jorah? He will be clearer on her feelings on Jorah from ASOS.

I don’t really like the Tyrion as a secret Targ theory, not because it’s unfounded but personal preference.  I do think that Barristan will have to have some kind of reckoning with his history regarding Aerys (particularly).

11 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

One has to keep in mind that Barristan Selmy remembers the War of the Ninepenny Kings and Maelys Blackfyre - he slew the man, after all. He could also have knowledge about Maelys' siblings, children, cousins, etc. And the Tattered Prince is old enough to have fought in that war, too - or know stuff from back then. The fact that we don't know his name also could indicate the man actually might be familar to Barristan Selmy.

I’m definitely not familiar enough with the canon surrounding the war of the nine penny kings.  Who do you think Tatters could be?

Barristan does go along with the idea of offering Tatters Pentos for his support.  One wonders whether Barristan actually intends to keep his word on this? Especially seeing as he has come to Dany through Illyrio and the conspiracy.

11 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Oh, I think they are going to burn cities after Dany has taken over the Dothraki - the Dothraki will want their Stallion to conquer them some more cities, especially such cities they could never conquer before like Qohor and Qarth - but that's not going to be happening soon.

I really can’t see this being as simple as burning down the cities though.  Dany has seen the destruction caused in Astapor as a result of her actions, and the danger of not leaving competent leadership in Yunkai and Meereen.  Will she simply destroy cities?  If she did go full on dragon, I don’t think there would be any other word to describe her than: villain.

One of Barristan’s key traits is his self doubt, I wonder how he would feel if he knew that Dany was destroying cities and the innocents that lived there?  Could there be some more parallels drawn to Jaime here?

I’d love to get some more information on the defiance from Barristan’s viewpoint, and I’m sure that he will be the viewpoint that gives us more information about the battle at the trident.  He could be very useful for establishing Rhaegar’s state of mind towards the end.

11 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Yeah, that's something we would like to know. Or why he didn't tell Barristan about Aegon so he could tell Dany about him? But Barristan may have seen or heard something connected to the Aegon plan, something he might recall when Tyrion tells him about Aegon and Connington.

The point of Barristan's mission was the bring Dany back - but that's something any person in Illyrio's service could have done. Especially since he didn't actually reveal his true identity at first.

Barristan’s role in Illyrio’s plot is one of the big questions for me.  Perhaps Barristan was sent to make sure that she gets back safely - seeing as Viserys didn’t survive the Dothraki sea? 
 

The timeline of all of the events seems a little off though - Connington appears to have been brought into the fold at a later date, along with Haldon - unless they were always meant to bring the GC on board?  So does that mean Lady Lemore has been involved in the plot for longer that JC?

 

 

[SeanF]

1 hour ago, broken one said:

vey disputable

If he closes the gates on Barristan he will be purged by the Meereenese nobles, I am sure he knows it. The moment Barristan troops leave city is critical for existence of his faction.

Many believe he is soon to be dead, I dunno why. I hope he survives the nex book.

 

Agreed.  Two of the Yunkish leaders want peace, most want to renew the fighting.

[SeanF]

1 hour ago, Loras said:

 

I really can’t see this being as simple as burning down the cities though.  Dany has seen the destruction caused in Astapor as a result of her actions, and the danger of not leaving competent leadership in Yunkai and Meereen.  Will she simply destroy cities?  If she did go full on dragon, I don’t think there would be any other word to describe her than: villain.

 

The Dothraki seem to enjoy burning cities as a matter of principle.  I doubt if that would be Daenerys' way.  But, I've no doubt there will be sacking and burning if cities are taken by storm.  

[BalerionTheCat]

8 hours ago, Loras said:

I really can’t see this being as simple as burning down the cities though.

I don't see how Dany can get the Dothrakis with her, without promising them total destruction of states and cities (or letting them do it). It is their only goal with rape and slavery.

8 hours ago, Loras said:

The timeline of all of the events seems a little off though - Connington appears to have been brought into the fold at a later date

Connington seems to have been with fAegon since a long time. He trained the boy, to be a knight and a king like Aegon V. It must have been years. It makes sense to send worthless Viserys and a bunch of Dothrakis to Westeros, only to create a diversion. Chaos before the return of fAegon. But Viserys and Drogo died before that. No matter. Robert also died and the chaos was there anyway. Dany became unexpectedly a power to count with. Illyrio then changed his plan to marry her to Aegon. But it failed again.

What is strange though, he should have sent Barristan to fAegon. Barristan was not that important to get Dany back. Or Illyrio was afraid he would unmask fAegon for a fraud.

[SeanF]

14 hours ago, BalerionTheCat said:

I don't see how Dany can get the Dothrakis with her, without promising them total destruction of states and cities (or letting them do it). It is their only goal with rape and slavery.

 

Offer them the treasure of the Free Cities.  Khal Drogo did after all, enjoy the finer things in life. 

[BalerionTheCat]

3 hours ago, SeanF said:

Offer them the treasure of the Free Cities.  Khal Drogo did after all, enjoy the finer things in life. 

Of course. But what will prevent them to destroy everything anyway? The Dothraki Sea was once a place of cities and civilization.

Quote

Some of their kings even sought to use the Dothraki in their own wars, offering them gold and slaves and other gifts to fight against their rivals. Khal Mengo took these gifts gladly ... then took the conquered lands as well, burning fields and farms and towns to return the grasslands to their wild state (for the Dothraki consider the earth to be their mother and think it sinful to cut her flesh with plows and spades and axes).

 

[broken one]

So to build the brave new world without slavery it takes to...