Battle of Bells

[Universal Sword Donor]

1 hour ago, frenin said:

Ofc he would, serious or not Daemon was bloodthirsty and had a dragon, Corlys needed both, the minute the war bored Daemon he just left to never coming back.

He left and returned....

1 hour ago, frenin said:

Ned and Jon Arryn needed to move at a breackneck speed, either that or Robert would be hunted down, Alyn Velaryon certainly didn't.

No they didn't. We know that because they didn't.  

1 hour ago, frenin said:

How would he legally get the lands if he didn't seize her and marry her?? 

Marry her when Robb came back? There was no need to seize her and he was heir to the DF at the time.

1 hour ago, frenin said:

It wasn't up in the air, it was a certainty, the city would fall to the rebels, the only question is, what would be the prize they'd have to pay for it.

Aerys especifically sent the fleet away... because he had no hope.

It was *not* a certainty. GRRM has stated the war wasn't over until after the sack.

1 hour ago, frenin said:

He was gonna.

 The traitors want my city, I heard him tell Rossart, but I’ll give them naught but ashes. Let Robert be king over charred bones and cooked meat.

The dragon bit it's just Jaime's presumption.

The guy who guarded the king night and day and was privy to every meeting between the pyromancers and the king? I'll take him at his word

1 hour ago, frenin said:

No, he especifically says Trident and Sack, they both marked the end of the war for different reasons. He doesn't say  just the Sack however.

You can't say the war was over after the Trident if the author specifically identifies two events (in addition to several specific deaths) as being the indication for the war being over and having nothing left to fight for.

GRRM: The Targaryens had lost a number of battles (and had also won some), but they weren't really losing the war until the Trident and the Sack of King's Landing. And then it was lost.

Aerys, Rhaegar, and Aegon were dead, and Viserys fled. There was no one left to fight for, and the war was clearly lost anyway.

Trident + Rhaegar =/= Trident, Sack, Rhaegar, Aegon, Aerys II + Viserys gone

1 hour ago, frenin said:

Tywin had decided to join the rebels by then, so there was going to be a Sack and the royal family was either going to be killed or seized.  We have Martin's word that the war was only lost after the  Trident and theSack and besides that we have a lot of characters seeing the Trident as the engagement to decide a position. 

He might have. We honestly have no idea when Tywin decided to sack KL until the gates were opened. He had to leave the WL to get to KL before the rebels.

1 hour ago, frenin said:

Westeros at whole thinks differently and in fact acted as if after the Trident there was a new king already.

What? Aerys didn't abdicate, there was active resistance at the capital and in the SL. The Freys and the IB might be indicative of who they think is going to win but again, it wasn't over per GRRM.

1 hour ago, frenin said:

That were no match to the rebel army coming to get them.

The remnants of the trident army were at KL with whatever the King had in the city. Defensive fortifications are force multipliers. Tywin himself told Tyrion 1 man on the wall is worth 10 below. We also have no idea what those thousands entails (1001 vs 10K?)

1 hour ago, frenin said:

We know for a fact that Tywin had decided to join the rebels by then.

No we don't. 

1 hour ago, frenin said:

Not only Storm's End, but the Stormlands at whole and since he didn't move his ass, he was not going to arrive in time.

They were both either occupied or had been especifically ordered to leave the  city. 

He had no opposition from the SL as far as we know and there were few if any stormlanders at the Trident. Robert was wounded and running with a few followers when the rebels saved him. Dornish marched through the SL to get to KL and the crown lands / reach would have been off limits to reinforcements.

1 hour ago, frenin said:

And surprisingly enough, people does believe that the war is over after the Blackwater and Stannis is finished. Only the at all timely deaths of all his rivals get him back to the game and rekindles the war, unless Aerys had that sort of miracle it was over for him.

So you're saying that the wars not really over until everyone gives up then? Interesting point to make.

1 hour ago, frenin said:

The Tyrell army knew that the war was lost and they were not going to fight a lost one.

The Tyrell army knew the war was lost when Ned showed up. They didn't dip their banners and relieve the siege until he did. They were literally engaged in an act of war against the rebels for the crown.

[frenin]

4 hours ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

He left and returned....

And then left to never come back.

 

4 hours ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

No they didn't. We know that because they didn't.  

And that's the thread about...

 

 

4 hours ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

Marry her when Robb came back? There was no need to seize her and he was heir to the DF at the time.

Why would Robb allow such thing?? In fact, the whole ingighting could be done orecisely because Robb wasn't there and both the Mandelys and Boltons could get away with shit, Robb would nort certainly marry her to a bastard.

He wasn't heir to Dredfort, be it that by default or otherwise.

 

 

4 hours ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

It was *not* a certainty. GRRM has stated the war wasn't over until after the sack.

It wasa certainty, Martin said Trident and Sack.

 

 

4 hours ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

The guy who guarded the king night and day and was privy to every meeting between the pyromancers and the king? I'll take him at his word

Except that Jaime doesn't even pretend to argue that that was Aerys idea...

 

Quote

The Targaryens never bury their dead, they burn them. Aerys meant to have the greatest funeral pyre of them all. Though if truth be told, I do not believe he truly expected to die. Like Aerion Brightfire before him, Aerys thought the fire would transform him … that he would rise again, reborn as a dragon, and turn all his enemies to ash.

 

 

4 hours ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

You can't say the war was over after the Trident if the author specifically identifies two events (in addition to several specific deaths) as being the indication for the war being over and having nothing left to fight for.

GRRM: The Targaryens had lost a number of battles (and had also won some), but they weren't really losing the war until the Trident and the Sack of King's Landing. And then it was lost.

Aerys, Rhaegar, and Aegon were dead, and Viserys fled. There was no one left to fight for, and the war was clearly lost anyway.

Trident + Rhaegar =/= Trident, Sack, Rhaegar, Aegon, Aerys II + Viserys gone

Sure i can, the characters in the book did, the events of the Sack were going to happen regardless and Viserys was not gone, he was at Dragonstone.

 

 

 

4 hours ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

He might have. We honestly have no idea when Tywin decided to sack KL until the gates were opened. He had to leave the WL to get to KL before the rebels.

He wouldn't and we do have a clear idea.

 

Quote

My father had held back from the war, brooding on all the wrongs Aerys had done him and determined that House Lannister should be on the winning side. The Trident decided him.

If the was wasn't decided then, Tywin and a bunch of opportunists lords would not have raced to join the rebel cause.

 

 

4 hours ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

What? Aerys didn't abdicate, 

No, he was just going to burn his own city down before the rebels came.

 

 The traitors want my city, I heard him tell Rossart, but I’ll give them naught but ashes. Let Robert be king over charred bones and cooked meat.

 

4 hours ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

there was active resistance at the capital and in the SL.

The active resistance at KL would not make it and the active resistance at the capital would fall soon enough.

 

4 hours ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

The Freys and the IB might be indicative of who they think is going to win but again, it wasn't over per GRRM.

It was over per GRRM.

 

 

4 hours ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

The remnants of the trident army were at KL with whatever the King had in the city. Defensive fortifications are force multipliers. Tywin himself told Tyrion 1 man on the wall is worth 10 below. We also have no idea what those thousands entails (1001 vs 10K?)

We don't know what the remnants meant but given that most of those soldiers were tired, hungry, wounded and dispirited,  defensive positions are foce multipliers that's true enough but to an extent, the Blackwater can tell you that, there were several thousand men defending the city and it would have fallen regardless had it not been for the reinforcements.

 

 

 

4 hours ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

No we don't. 

Yes, we do.

My father had held back from the war, brooding on all the wrongs Aerys had done him and determined that House Lannister should be on the winning side. The Trident decided him.

 

 

4 hours ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

He had no opposition from the SL as far as we know

He sure as hell did, he was a foreign force occupying the Stormlands and besieging Storm's End.

 

 

4 hours ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

and there were few if any stormlanders at the Trident.

Thanks to Mace, who was cutting the Stormlands from the rebels.

 

 

4 hours ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

Robert was wounded and running with a few followers when the rebels saved him.

He was alone, given that he retreated in good order, he would simply separe from his men to allow him elude capture.

 

 

4 hours ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

Dornish marched through the SL to get to KL and the crown lands / reach would have been off limits to reinforcements.

Yep, because again, the stormlands were being occupied by the Reach.

 

 

 

4 hours ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

The Tyrell army knew the war was lost when Ned showed up. They didn't dip their banners and relieve the siege until he did. They were literally engaged in an act of war against the rebels for the crown.

And yet they dipped their banners when Ned showed up, meaning that they were engaging in a rather pointless act of war against the rebels for the crown.