Is it safe to assume that Littlefinger is Robert Arryn’s father?

[James Steller]

I think it’s a fair thing to think. Lysa would never admit it, maybe she wasn’t even sure, but I am convinced that she and Littlefinger spent her marriage cuckolding Jon. Plus Jon has a bad track record with procreation. I’m convinced that he was sterile and Littlefinger is the real father of Robert.

[Darth Sidious]

No, not safe.  But it is a possibility.

[Foot_Of_The_King]

2 hours ago, Prince Rhaego's Soul said:

No, not safe.  But it is a possibility.

Ditto. 

[Curled Finger]

Lysa experienced several doomed pregnancies which leads me to believe that Jon was not the problem, at least not with fertility.  Even in today's world a first pregnancy that ends as traumatically as Lysa's did can have far reaching ramifications for future pregnancy, birth and offspring.  Looks like Dany can become pregnant, but likely lost her second child and make no mistake, her first pregnancy ended horribly.  This is a thing.  

Jon kept Lysa with him in Kings Landing.  She may not have had a great deal of opportunity to sneak around, what with servants and Jon being Hand and all.   Look at all the things Shay couldn't do under the magnifying glass.  Sure, Robin could be Littlefinger's...if they were able to have relations in Kings Landing.   We don't know they did, so it is safer to assume that Robin is Jon Arryn's little miracle.  

[zandru]

I also say no. And no way. Add to the arguments of Curled Finger, is Lysa's wedding day and night - she went on and on about how finally they could get it on together. This suggests that they couldn't in King's Landing, and the last time they mated was back when Lysa was still little Lysa Tully.

Also, if Sweetrobin were Baelish's get, Littlefinger might have had a more kindly attitude towards him and would be making plans to have him legitimized under the name of The Lord of Harrenhall. Instead, Little Robert is just a convenient placeholder to enable Baelish to get control of the Vale of Arryn via his new, more effective tool: Sansa Stark-Lannister.

[Aebram]

13 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Lysa experienced several doomed pregnancies which leads me to believe that Jon was not the problem, at least not with fertility.   [snip]

Jon kept Lysa with him in Kings Landing.  She may not have had a great deal of opportunity to sneak around, what with servants and Jon being Hand and all.   Look at all the things Shay couldn't do under the magnifying glass.  Sure, Robin could be Littlefinger's...if they were able to have relations in Kings Landing.   We don't know they did, so it is safer to assume that Robin is Jon Arryn's little miracle.  

Sorry, I don't think these conclusions are correct.  All Lysa's failed pregnancies occurred when she was married to Jon.  The "Tansy" mystery suggests that she did bear a healthy child her first time, which was before she wed Jon.

And there have been plenty of sexual shenangans at court.  Tyrion and Shae did get together many times, despite Tywin's demand.  Jon and Lysa were apparently not close; and Littlefinger wpuld have been skillful at arranging secret rendezvous.

[zandru]

16 minutes ago, Aebram said:

The "Tansy" mystery suggests that she did bear a healthy child her first time, which was before she wed Jon.

Well, apparently it could have been "a healthy child", but for the tansy and other abortion drugs.

17 minutes ago, Aebram said:

Littlefinger wpuld have been skillful at arranging secret rendezvous.

Most certainly! But as I noted earlier, Lysa's wedding night reaction suggests that Littlefinger did not. And how better to keep playing Lysa along by denying her access to his body, until Jon Arryn was "out of the way."

[PrettyLittlePsycho]

Most certainly not. Actually the thoght never occured to me before.

LF is likely trying to kill Robin ATM, so... no.

[Lollygag]

It's absolutely certain that GRRM wants us to wonder about that.

I'm not exactly sure what it would mean for the plot, but it'd make Littlefinger even worse by quite a lot.

 

[corbon]

19 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Lysa experienced several doomed pregnancies which leads me to believe that Jon was not the problem, at least not with fertility.  

 

Jon had a history of fertility issues with his first wives. Wife#1 died in childbirth with a stillborn. Wife#2 was childless. His heir was a nephew, then a distant cousin that married a niece. He was almost certainly part of the problem.

[James Steller]

6 hours ago, zandru said:

Also, if Sweetrobin were Baelish's get, Littlefinger might have had a more kindly attitude towards him

I disagree. Littlefinger is one of the least ethical people in the story. He’s a sociopath who sees everyone else as either pawns to be manipulated, enemies to be defeated, or prizes to be coveted. I don’t doubt for a second that he’d kill off his own kid if it means he gets power and Sansa Stark all for himself. Littlefinger is the real monster of the story, after all. He’s the one who set everything into motion by persuading Lysa to kill Jon Arryn and blame the Lannisters so he could destroy House Stark for taking Catelyn away from him.
 

Also, Robert doesn’t resemble either of his parents. He doesn’t have Tully features or Arryn features. We know that Tullys are blue eyed redheads while Arryns are basically Aryans (based on how Jon and Harry the Heir look). Robert is a tiny boy with a very slight frame and brown hair. Petyr Baelish has the exact same body type with dark hair (we can assume that dark + red = brown). They’re both short and weak compared to Jon Arryn being in robust health into his 60s. I‘m beginning to think I was too tentative with my thread title. Far as I’m concerned, Littlefinger IS Sweetrobin’s father.

[Curled Finger]

6 hours ago, Aebram said:

Sorry, I don't think these conclusions are correct.  All Lysa's failed pregnancies occurred when she was married to Jon.  The "Tansy" mystery suggests that she did bear a healthy child her first time, which was before she wed Jon.

And there have been plenty of sexual shenangans at court.  Tyrion and Shae did get together many times, despite Tywin's demand.  Jon and Lysa were apparently not close; and Littlefinger wpuld have been skillful at arranging secret rendezvous.

I beg your pardon, but this is one of the best parts of this community.   I read the tansy as a moon tea or a fetal killing sort of thing, not something used to induce pregnancy, but to end it.   A lot goes into ending a pregnancy and I am unsure how you reach the conclusion that Lysa bore a healthy child.   Would love some clarity on that.  So as I have read these words I conclude the fetus was aborted, not born.  

I cannot not argue that yes, even poor Shae found her way insofar as her intentions are met, but I never her read her as sincere or sympathetic.  Some characters are like that.  My suggestion is that maybe Littlefinger kept her at Bay, but she did go in cahoots with him to murder Jon, didn't she?  Guess I always thought Littlefinger was a large part of Lysa's madness.   They could not have had any type of normal relationship and LIttlefinger has been nobody's fool yet.  I thought he sort of hung himself just close  enough and out of reach to/for Lysa.  He is quite an operator.  I don't think there is much freedom at the top,  He has been playing it cool for years now and his machinations are only coming to light as we read.  Really no one seems to have anything real on him and surprisingly few who actually loathe him.  I would think a mind such as Littlefinger's would understand the long game.  

[Curled Finger]

27 minutes ago, corbon said:

Jon had a history of fertility issues with his first wives. Wife#1 died in childbirth with a stillborn. Wife#2 was childless. His heir was a nephew, then a distant cousin that married a niece. He was almost certainly part of the problem.

Wife #1 became pregnant.  Pregnancy is the one real test of fertility.  A stillborn was a pregnancy.  And I give you most of Wife #2 being childless, it is possible she had problem.  I have watched House Arryn become nearly extinct when it was once such a powerful and honorable house.   The lack of direct heir and dwindling of kin in the male line, is not a terrible indicator that sterility or infertility is or has been a major and long standing problem in this family.  This bloodline's own genetics is killing it off.  It's a pretty cool mystery of itself in near tandem with the seeming extinctions of other powerful houses for different reasons.  Lots of mystery and intrigue there.  Why are nearly most of these families so open or prone to self destruction?  Do the bloodlines mean anything?  Is this some evil magic working among the nobles? 

[zandru]

2 hours ago, James Steller said:

I don’t doubt for a second that he’d kill off his own kid if it means he gets power and Sansa Stark all for himself

Well, I agree there. And as transactional as Littlefinger is, even if poor little seizure-prone, undersized Robin were a Baelish bastard, Littlefinger might be inclined to discard him, as an inferior product. One wonders if Baelish was an only child, and if not, what has become of his sibs?

Still, I don't think Robin was anything other than Lysa and Jon Arryn's offspring. I agree with Curled Finger

2 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Guess I always thought Littlefinger was a large part of Lysa's madness.   They could not have had any type of normal relationship and LIttlefinger has been nobody's fool yet.  I thought he sort of hung himself just close  enough and out of reach to/for Lysa.

that Baelish would get the most leverage by dangling (heh) his succulent body just out of Lysa's reach, not to be touched until she had helped him to clear away all the "obstacles."

But as Lollygag observed

6 hours ago, Lollygag said:

It's absolutely certain that GRRM wants us to wonder about that.

It's similar to the remote suspicion that "the miller's sons" that Theon and Reek/Ramsey slew might have been from Theon's "visits" to the miller's wife. It doesn't hold up upon close inspection, but the sordid hint is there.

[Bael's Bastard]

No chance. She is explicit that Robert is Jon's seed, and that they killed the only child she ever made with Littlefinger.

[Curled Finger]

10 minutes ago, zandru said:

It's similar to the remote suspicion that "the miller's sons" that Theon and Reek/Ramsey slew might have been from Theon's "visits" to the miller's wife. It doesn't hold up upon close inspection, but the sordid hint is there.

First thought, Yah, there is something very dirty here.  Then I remembered exactly how LF played Lysa once she got him.   It didn't take him long to finally be rid of her and that whole duplicitous evil misuse of a madwoman was plenty dirty.  I gotta go take a bath.  Eww

[corbon]

2 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Wife #1 became pregnant.  Pregnancy is the one real test of fertility. 

Fertility might have been the wrong word on my part. Getting pregnant is just the first step. And genetically damaged sperm can have as much influence on a child being carried to term as the conditions of the womb.
The simple fact is that when multiple (3) women struggle or fail to have healthy children with one man, its almost always connected to the man.  Sure, its possible the first wife was perfectly healthy just lost a healthy baby and her own life in her first childbirth, plus the second wife had conception or sexual issues, plus Jon's 'proven fertile' third wife actually sustained damage. It just much more likely that Jon had issues as well.

2 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

A stillborn was a pregnancy.  And I give you most of Wife #2 being childless, it is possible she had problem. 

Lots of things are possible. The clues we have from GRRM is that Jon was childless in two marriages before Lysa. Period.

Lysa surely contributed to their problems as well due to damage after the tansy thing went wrong, but we definitely can't pin it all on her. 

 

I agree with you that Littlefinger is likely not Sweetrobin's father, and with @zandru that we are meant to wonder and be unsure.
IMO Littlefinger wasn't actually much interested in Lysa, at least while Jon was alive. Sleeping with her would have been a great risk and the rewards from her favour could be had without doing so I think. Add that, his love/obsession over Cat (not Lysa) and Lysa's various statements about finally being together, seed is strong etc, and I think the case for them sleeping together during Jon's time is very, very weak.

 

[Curled Finger]

2 minutes ago, corbon said:

Fertility might have been the wrong word on my part. Getting pregnant is just the first step. And genetically damaged sperm can have as much influence on a child being carried to term as the conditions of the womb.

Takes a big person to point their own mistake out and correct it with such good information.  Thanks, Man. 

You're right about the whole hellacious conception triangle being written specifically for us to question and doubt.  Right on.  

[Curled Finger]

10 minutes ago, Bael's Bastard said:

No chance. She is explicit that Robert is Jon's seed, and that they killed the only child she ever made with Littlefinger.

Gads, that's right!  She makes a big deal repeating "the seed is strong".  Excellent head canon check.  

[corbon]

10 minutes ago, corbon said:

I agree with you that Littlefinger is likely not Sweetrobin's father, and with @zandru that we are meant to wonder and be unsure.

Heh, not my best day communication-wise.

I mean, we can be sure from her statements that Sweetrobin is Jon's.  Then GRRM throws in a seed of doubt, because he likes that. But the statements are still clear and ring true if you look at them closely. Sweetrobin is a true Arryn.